"Portable Sawmill Business" Is It Worth Getting In To?

[DR Buck]

I just charge $60/hour whether the customer has help or not. If they provide labor and/or equipment it speeds up the job and saves them money. If they can't or don't want to help I do it by myself, it just cost more.

This is my approach as well (even the same rate!).  This works out OK in most cases, but there was one instance where the customer provided no help, and wanted thick slabs.  Oof.  I need to learn to ask more questions.

--Peter

Sure you get paid for it, but it takes longer when you have to stop milling to move logs and stack boards/slabs.   I prefer my approach charging by the BF and customer MUST supply help.   Then I can have a reasonable expectation of when I'm going home.  Has worked well for me for over 7 years, many times averaging over $100 per hour, and almost never under $45 an hour when BF rate is converted to hours spent on the job.

[038magnum]

Ok, if you have to travel 1 hour each way to a job and set up your mill, saw for 5 hours. At the end of the day you have 8 + or – hours in the job. I would hope to make at least around $700.00 if possible hopefully more. Is this realistic?

[Brad_S.]

 
No.

[Tom the Sawyer]

Maybe some sawyers in your area could chime in but to average at least $140 per hour when you are just starting out seems unreasonable.  At .40 per board foot that is at least 350 bf per hour (467 bf per hour at .30) and without supplemental equipment/help (which adds to your cost) it would be difficult to produce that much lumber as your minimum production level. 

You certainly might achieve that at times but to base your decision on maintaining that level of production is unrealistic.   Better to use realistic expectations and enjoy it when you can overperform rather than constantly worry about digging yourself out of a hole.   ;)

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

Maybe some sawyers in your area could chime in but to average at least $140 per hour when you are just starting out seems unreasonable.  At .40 per board foot that is at least 350 bf per hour (467 bf per hour at .30) and without supplemental equipment/help (which adds to your cost) it would be difficult to produce that much lumber as your minimum production level. 

You certainly might achieve that at times but to base your decision on maintaining that level of production is unrealistic.   Better to use realistic expectations and enjoy it when you can overperform rather than constantly worry about digging yourself out of a hole.   ;)

I don't travel Tom, I'm stationary. But if I were to think about going on the road, you have made some fine points. Good reply.

[zopi]

Seven hundred a day gross, is alot of dough.

I know some guys that do it...but they are mowing grass in high dollar neighborhoods.

[pnyberg]

Ok, if you have to travel 1 hour each way to a job and set up your mill, saw for 5 hours. At the end of the day you have 8 + or – hours in the job. I would hope to make at least around $700.00 if possible hopefully more. Is this realistic?

I'll agree with 'No'; but I'll expand a little.

Here's how the numbers would work out using my billing structure:

• Let's say that 1 hour each way is 50 miles each way.  I charge $1.00 per mile one way for travel, so that's $50.  The charge is for the expense of moving the machine to the job.  For the driver (sawyer) the drive is the commute to work.  Few people get paid for the time it takes them to drive to work.
• I do charge for setup time, which is usually about 20 minutes.  At an hourly rate of $60 per hour, that's another $20.  I don't charge for the time it takes to pack up.
• 5 hours of milling at $60 per hour is $300.

So for that job, I'd expect a payment of $370 (plus tax where applicable).

--Peter

[WDH]

No.  You need to get into a different business, maybe banking or running drugs  :D.

You would have to be in some kind of specialty or niche sawing business to make that kind of money on a daily basis.

[pnyberg]

Sure you get paid for it, but it takes longer when you have to stop milling to move logs and stack boards/slabs.   I prefer my approach charging by the BF and customer MUST supply help.   Then I can have a reasonable expectation of when I'm going home.  Has worked well for me for over 7 years, many times averaging over $100 per hour, and almost never under $45 an hour when BF rate is converted to hours spent on the job.

I milled about 400 bdft of oak for a nice lady yesterday.  This was a suburban homeowner, as are most of my customers.  She did help.  She carried one end of each board that came off the mill.  I carried the other end.  There were issues with getting logs loaded as well.  At the end of the day I billed her for 5 hours and 20 minutes.  That's about $1.25 per bdft.

In general, I have only the vaguest expectations of when I will be headed home beyond the fact that I don't saw after dark.

--Peter

[zopi]

Never let it be said that there is not an encyclopedia of knowledge on here...business one oh one amd seige engines today...and steam engines...

[customsawyer]

I figure my bf/hour based on the actual time on the job if you want to figure in the driving time as well then I am going to have to re figure. Most portable jobs I do I am able to get pretty close to 500 bf/hr but you have to keep in mind that I take my own tractor and edger with me on most of these jobs. All this extra equipment comes at a cost.

[tcsmpsi]

Something which has not been made plain, in any of the posts in this thread, is the bottom line difference on how much one charges or 'makes' off a certain manner/job.  Someone mentioned charging $1.00 a mile for travel.  What is the full nature of the cost of that mile?
My business day begins when I have my work clothes on and head out the door of the house.  This morning, that was 4:24 AM.  Expense begins from that moment.  It ceases when I walk in the house and take my boots off at the end of the day, which averages 12 hrs a day, 7 days a week (mostly...but some 'partial business' days)(time off for good behavior).

The moment I open the door of the truck, I start using a machine which I have calculated the average cost of machine, maintenance, repair, insurance as being just a little over $25 a day, or a little over $2 an hour of business time.  Fuel is additional, at today's consideration of reasonable $4 a gal.  Pulling equipment, I am looking at about 14-15 mpg as an average.  So, at 50 miles, that would be roughly 3 gals, or $12.  During that drive time, the operator might need to eat or drink a bit.  Reasonably, we can consider cost of that 50 miles to be roughly (operator must be clothed, etc.) $15.   At $1 per mile, 50 mile=$50.   Of course, there is the 'make ready' time (hook-ups, gathering tools, etc.) which we could reasonably figure 30 mins./half an hour.  $50-15=$35 for 1.5 hrs labor, or about $25 an hr.  Did I mention there are no end to contingencies for a small business owner/operator, who is solely responsible?
Figuring milling costs, any other cost of equipment, tools, insurance, permits, fees, TAXES, etc., plus a reasonable 'buffer' (those contingency things), should all be no less diligently considered, for what you actually 'make'.  Of course, this is necessary to determine its "worth".  I would say a week to ten days of deliberate consideration and detailed analysis, giving a little time to catch those things that come to light, from time to time, should give one a reasonably good, overall view.

[FeltzE]

Back to the topic,  I'd say YES it's worth it.  BUT have a backup plan (keep your day job)If you are as most all are on this site even moderately successfull the sawmill and some effort will net you a profit, eg. make your saw payment and beer money. Assess the market and develop your skill and knowlege in your particular niche. When you reach a threshold of sustainment quit your day job.

HOW MUCH PROFIT? Thats a loaded question...

Consider that an average of 200-300bf/hour (IMO) is a reasonable expectation of production on a hydraulic mill with a helper stacking lumber. AND know that everything slows you down from those expectations, (clean up, making stickers, edging, moving logs, moving sawdust, moving slabs, moving the mill, poor logs etc)

Many people have a single tree they may want cut, 3 pieces of large oak strewn across a yard on a slope.. 4 trees out back of a home in a fence.. on a slope cut to within an inch of your mill capabilities... (4 nails, 2 eye hooks... all grown over and saw fodder. All slows you down.

Every job is different - some take longer time to set up, or the log quality is poor, or there is tramp metal, or your cutting large stock (high production) or thin short stock (low hourly production) or muddy logs. My best saw job was 75,000 feet of sawgrade pine cutting large stock, the worst, small twinkie logs around 8 inches 6-8 feet totalling less than 1000bf (of course the customer wants clear lumber out of knotty pine... hmmmmm?)

What is the local rate for portable sawmilling?  Here .21 - .30 cents/bf. Hourly is kinda frowned apon as people are concerned about the $60/hr rate which equals .30/bf @ 200bf/hr sawing. Some places are higher.   Pine RC lumber sells for .50 so you can imagine that it caps the portability price.

Starting up, you can't expect to be full time. It takes time to develop your business and exposure.

Lastly, if it were easy and as profitable as some would have you believe. There would be a sawmill on every corner!!!  If I didn't have a sawmill, I'd buy a zero turn mower and start a lawn care business. It's cheaper and people want you weekly!

[tcsmpsi]

After the nuts and bolts are figured, then you can analyze what the overall worth is, to you.  You have already shown the want for change.  Why?  What are you looking for, specificially?  Want more control of what your energy produces in Life with regard to the well being of all things?

In the end, any service can be made profitable, with time and money.  The suggestions to start part time to ease into it, make sense to see if the business of it is something you can live with comfortably.

[wdtik]

  I'm kinda late to this discussion and not having actually owned/run a portable
sawmill business I'm only somewhat qualified to comment on this.

There are a number of new mobile bandsaw business starting up in this area due to A:
pine beetle out break  B: influx of new out of state people moving to the area.

If I were considering starting a sawmill business mobile or otherwise I would think
"value added".  I have been seeing some very nice new horse barns/cabins/ski lodges.
going up around the area---150 mile radius and I know they are being built at least in part
by guys with mobile bandmills.  And I know some are making really good money...not just getting by.

I've also seen a number of these mill startups come and go,  I would guess lack of capitol/business experience is partly responsible for the turnover in some regards.

  Example:  a good friend recently purchased a 60 acre mining claim in the mts-- remote location.
  He had a cabin built by a guy with a high end WM.  They did everything, punched in the road
dug a  pond and foundation ect.  The trees cut from the roadway were used for the cabin the year after the
rough work was done, he had a dozer, excavator ect maybe 10 guys on the actual cabin build.  He was not
local but from maybe 200 miles out.  He has a waiting list.. even in this market..The WM is just one of his
tools,  I can cite several more of these stories..Some where the logs are hauled out via helicopter to not
one but two highend mills....
  Just my opinion  CBD

[wesdor]

Be careful about the insurance coverage.  We have a sawyer in our area that just stopped doing on-site with his LT70 because insurance no longer covers him when he is offsite.  We may now take logs to him, but he has to use his own off-bearer.  Obviously his cost has now increased.

Be sure you are covered.

[038magnum]

I have a phone call in to my agent about this venture that I want to get into. He has not got back with me yet. Boy did he ask the questions!
I wonder if anyone else out there is having the same problem with their insurance for their portable sawmill business. Can they find good insurance for this type of business? Are the premiums very high?

[zopi]

There is no such animal as good insurance...much like banks.....

[Leigh Family Farm]

Thanks to all who have posted. This information was spot on for those looking to venture into saw milling or any business for that matter.

I would like to add a little tidbits on the business side:
1. Research your market area. As mentioned above, figure out how far you are willing to travel to accurately figure in costs (maintenance, salary, operational, etc.). Is there a market for your services in your area? Not the market that you see but the actual market. Talk to tree services, lawn care companies, builders, lumber yards, and anyone else involved with trees or wood. If these folk can tell you that they come across a lot of down trees, customers needing logs cut up, or shops needing a supply of a specific type of wood but don't carry it in small amounts, then there is a market.
2. Reduce your expenses, increase your income. Simple business theory. If you can't do one, then you need to do the other. This is why you start small. You will see the areas where you can avoid costs (eg. traveling over 50 miles) or increase income (eg. making mulch from scrap by renting a wood chipper once a month).
3. Call your local scuba diving company and ask who their insurance company is. Scuba diving is one of the most difficult professions to get insurance for. When asking the local log/wood trades about market area, ask them for their insurance company. Be prepared to pay a high premium but don't cut without it! If you have no liability insurance and you damage a customer's property with your equipment, they can come after you, your wife, your home, everything.
4. Learn all you can from others. Ask questions of small business owners in your area. Join the SBA. If you don't know what that is, look it up.
5. Murphy is you silent partner. Don't under estimate Murphy's capabilities to royally mess things up.

Remember, its your dream, go make it happen. Don't let others deter you from ever reaching your dream. 

[Delawhere Jack]

Thanks to all who have posted. This information was spot on for those looking to venture into saw milling or any business for that matter.

I would like to add a little tidbits on the business side:
1. Research your market area. As mentioned above, figure out how far you are willing to travel to accurately figure in costs (maintenance, salary, operational, etc.). Is there a market for your services in your area? Not the market that you see but the actual market. Talk to tree services, lawn care companies, builders, lumber yards, and anyone else involved with trees or wood. If these folk can tell you that they come across a lot of down trees, customers needing logs cut up, or shops needing a supply of a specific type of wood but don't carry it in small amounts, then there is a market.
2. Reduce your expenses, increase your income. Simple business theory. If you can't do one, then you need to do the other. This is why you start small. You will see the areas where you can avoid costs (eg. traveling over 50 miles) or increase income (eg. making mulch from scrap by renting a wood chipper once a month).
3. Call your local scuba diving company and ask who their insurance company is. Scuba diving is one of the most difficult professions to get insurance for. When asking the local log/wood trades about market area, ask them for their insurance company. Be prepared to pay a high premium but don't cut without it! If you have no liability insurance and you damage a customer's property with your equipment, they can come after you, your wife, your home, everything.
4. Learn all you can from others. Ask questions of small business owners in your area. Join the SBA. If you don't know what that is, look it up.
5. Murphy is you silent partner. Don't under estimate Murphy's capabilities to royally Mess things up.

Remember, its your dream, go make it happen. Don't let others deter you from ever reaching your dream.

Hank from Longwood, is that you?

[drobertson]

038,  I started part time while working for an injection mold tool room. Part time is good, but the timing seemed to always be a bit off, weather, schedules,(family time) ect. If you can work this out all the better. Then went full time in 2008, after massive layoffs, I decided to quit my job,(maybe not smart) and go for it. I did have a great deal of work that first year, cutting nearly 200m feet for an outfit that needed a support mill. They did all the moving of logs, slabs, and various beams I was cutting.  This was the perfect picture. then they closed. Portable jobs are just come and go. Economy has many folks clawing for money. Lots of good advice here from the other folks for sure. If you go for it, get an edger at least, and a hydraulic mill for certain. Not sure too many folks will pay 100 bucks an hour if speed is not there. Not sure about that.  I cut for anywhere between .15 and .30 cent a bdft. This works for both parties. And there are, after awhile many return custormers. Working for yourself is rewarding, specially watching projects completed, barns, bridges,log homes ect. Go for it, just remember keep the blade in the log! and oh yea, make quality no. one. Even If they say it does't matter.  When they start building it will matter,  Hope the best for you,  david

[1woodguy]

Lots of good info brought up!
If your nt seeing things with eyes wide open lots of times your bustin your rear for naught
Occasionally I run across a deal on a property near the lake.
I have several brothers at times we partner up. One sees a pile of gold big as a mountain on most deals
The other I feel is to picky and holds off and I have lost out on deals waiting for him to up his share
I am kind of in the middle but this is an area I have more experience than them
I look each place over three times
Try to see things their way and mine
I don't have a mill yet still thinking about it
if I needed to make a living doing something full time
Stick with something you know for the most part
Had a lawn service years ago wasn't paying (wife thought it was going well)
Raised prices up and lost customers interestingly enough ended up gaining more than was wanted did more culling ended with doing 60% of work and wear and tear and more money

[BandsawWarrior]

To the OP
If you want to mill lumber and have a hobby, get a sawmill. 
If you want a full time job where you work very hard and make very little "profit", get a sawmill.
If you want to make money in the lumber industry get a industrial planer moulder and a resaw. 

It's hard to two guys to saw 1000bf/day 5 days a week on a bandsaw.  There's so many other time consuming things that need to be done to make this happen. 

However, it's easy for two guys to run 5000bf through planer in 2-3 hours.  This could be anything from T&G to log siding. 

The problem with small sawmill operations is that they're not easily scalable.  Small orders are a waste of time and large orders usually have time constraints that can't be met by a one to two person operation.  Also, the capital investment never ends.  After your sawmill purchase you'll realize you need an edger, resaw, straight line rip, jump saw, loader, forklift, storage shop, trailer, and so on.   

This is where reman operations are flexible.  Two people can easily process orders up to 50,000bf in a timely manner.

If I could turn back time and do it all over again I would get a kiln first and then a planer moulder.  Probably the last piece of equipment would be a portable bandsaw.   

The most important thing to remember is that the money is in the sales.  Just think of lumber brokers who can supply 10 orders at the same time by working with multiple sawmills all while the person standing at his "bandsaw" is working on one order. 

Even small operations have to meet a certain minimum level of sales to be profitable.  In my experience it's very difficult to meet this minimum volume requirement with a small sawmill.  Getting orders is not the problem...getting production is. 

my2cents

[WDH]

Some good points.  From my experience in the wood industry, unless you have a niche market, the name of the game in the sawmilling business, especially the commodity side, is productivity and efficiency.  Waste and inefficiency and high log cost will put you under.

[Stephen1]

I am slowly getting into this. I have not quit my full time job. Today I agreed to travel to a job, 60 miles away. I It is 1 yard tree 11' feet of Sugar Maple 38". I told him I wi;l travel for free as it is my 1st year in business, but my rate is 65$  an hour all inclusive of the time there with a minimum of 4 hours.  I will make a grand total of $260. I told him if we find hardware it takes time to remove it, and we migh go over the 4 hour hrs. He has tod me I have to leave at the 8 hr mark as that is what is budget for this tree is.  :D. He also told me that I am the only one willing to cut a yard tree, so maybe I have found my niche, I know when I did the 200 DF beams I had the same comment from them. I did make money on the job, real good money, $525 a day plus sharpening at night that I charged for. They were long days and nights for sure along with my regular job. By the end I knew I really liked this sawing business and wanted to pursue it more.
Good luck!