"Portable Sawmill Business" Is It Worth Getting In To?

[038magnum]

I am so confused! To all the ones out there that post on this site regularly that have a portable sawmill businesses, do you really make much money at it or is it mainly a hobby? I have been reading other sites and many discourage starting a portable sawmill business. Some say you have to charge around $100 dollars and hour to make any money at it. I wonder if this might be true with all the expenses you incur. I know that just starting up is tuff and it will take a while. I plan on working the job that I am in now until things take off. The wife is behind me in starting this endeavor so I have that on my side. I just wonder that after paying big bucks for a hydraulic mill, you will also have to work the other job to make this venture work. Please help me out. Be honest, is this worth it. All I want is to pay my bills and make a little money at it. I am not looking to get rich. I love working outdoors and working with wood. I think this would be enjoyable and interesting to see what you can get out of a log.  Thank you in advance for your help.

[bikedude73]

Hello for whatever this is worth I bought a small less expensive mill wm lt -15 and if I make money that's great and if not I get to cut lots of great wood for me.  On the other hand I would say buy a  woodmizer lt-15 go at the least if you want to go mobile.  Your welcome to check out my website www.blackdogboards.com  Ask any questions I will help any way I can.  Good luck...

[laffs]

Thats a hard one. I think at your age, you have to look at it as a hobby and if it turns into something it does.
If it was me knowing what i do now and economics what they are. I think id buy the planer and kiln first,buy rough lumber and mill it. go from there.

During the off season Igive out tons of quotes. If they show up, great. theres no guarantee from week to week how much work youl get. About a third of my milling is for myself. If you find i niche you might do alright.

[Magicman]

I have never regretted my decision to start a portable sawmill business.  The first year I invoiced 44 saw jobs, sawed over 40Mbf, and grossed  $7,060.  The second year it was 53 saw jobs, over 60Mbf, and I grossed $10,700.  I was charging $175.00 per Mbf back then.  I tell you this not bragging or complaining, but just to give you an idea of what I did then and with absolutely no advertising.  I have been averaging well over 100Mbf per year since then.

Concentrate on learning to produce a quality product and your repeat customers will keep you in business.  Develop a niche market that fits you and your customers.  Mine is sawing factory sized dimensional framing lumber.  Others specialize in sawing various other species and dimensions.

[Dave VH]

I've only had my mill for a couple of months, and it has already paid for itself many times over.  ofcourse it is a small, old, manual mill, and not very efficient at that.  but with such a small investment, it's not hard to break even.  I'm learning a lot right now, and saving to get the big hydralic mill that I want.  I got the mill just for myself.  I am already a self employed carpenter, so that helps.  I have got a number of people asking me to mill for them, and I have several of my own logs that I'm stockpilling lumber from that I will either use or sell in the future.  It is more than worth it for me, but I didn't take much risk, which is the way that I would recomend starting out.  However each to there own.  Good luck on your decision.

[shortlogger]

I don't saw full time I have a high hp manual mill and I turn away people  about every week that are needing lumber cut because I can't saw enough to take all the jobs offered . But I am unsure if I would be able to make the payment on a large hyd mill and still have enough left to live on every month it has it's ups and downs , with some advertising I think I could make it ok . If nothing else it will deffanatly keep you busy as a side job . It would also help if you have access to timber to cut and stack to sell outright when nothing else is going on that's what I do anyway ,and that's my opinion . Also different parts of the country have more or less competition  and demand to consider as a factor .

[Chuck White]

I'm mostly a hobby sawyer.
I don't saw year-round, just from Spring to Fall, no cold weather.
I'd say if you really wanted to saw, get a hydraulic mill, and look for a used mill in good shape first, you could save near half.
There's good money to be made, considering the convenience to the customer, that convenience being he doesn't have to truck his logs!
You will also meet some really great people too.

[bandmiller2]

I think if you consider it a hobby that pays its own way you'll be pretty close to reality.A few here are making some money but its a hard way to support yourself and family."It takes a good job to support a farm and a mill". Frank C.

[MHineman]

  Starting out it would difficult to make as much money as a regular job, but you are your own boss.  That can be good or bad depending on you, your age, your family, and your area.
  I do custom sawing at a customer site, same at my site, saw my logs to sell lumber, small scale logging, and farming.  Any one of these would not keep me busy around here, but all together I'm getting by.
  It generally takes time for you to learn enough about running the sawmill to do a good job, get known for doing a good job and develop markets.
  I'd recommend doing it as a side job for at least a while and then see it you can develop the business and if you really want to do it more than a side job.
  After a weekend of moving lumber and rolling cants on the mill, many need to go back to their day job to rest.

[stavebuyer]

The "worth it" part is a tough one to answer. There are alot of low hour used mills on the market right now..I am sure several are being offerred for sale by people that decided it wasn't worth it. Costs are easier to estimate than income or production. It's possible to obtain the per hour production numbers manufacturers claim but harder to average them in the long term. As a startup, I would have a hard time recommending going much in to debt to finance a mill if you have to rely soley on it to be able to make the payments. If your "portable" you will need to figure travel time and costs. If your stationary you need to add in the cost of support equipment to handle logs/lumber/sawdust/ and slabs. The "mill" has to cover these costs too. Thats the down side. The up side is unless the "worth it" part needs to be a six figure income then you won't need $100 an hour to make it pencil out. Overall operating costs excluding labor for a portable mill should be less $20 an hour.

My advice would be to buy a used mill you can afford even if it's not paying its own way. If the work and margin is there for you a new mill is just a phone call.

[FeltzE]

Running a portable sawmill business is a gamble ... not a bad gamble mind you.

- First it's difficult to judge the local market, how much demand is there for portable sawmilling?
- Is there a market for rough cut (green/air-dry) lumber?
- What is the current rate for sawmilling in your area?

I started with the assumption that I could saw enough to make my payments on a new mill ('96) working weekends while I worked full time. I was correct, and made some pocket change along the way.  Now in working retirement I find that I am not getting as many cutting calls as I would like (mostly due to the depressed economy here these days) Although I am supplementing my income none the less, but not enough to pay all my bills.

Local market rates and value  are everything in the custom cutting business. In Western NY you will find Amish still cutting and stickering under 0.20/bf Go ahead and compete with that... Here in NC where I am 21-.30/bf no one is working full time portable sawing locally. I just saw an ad for 20,000bf of RC lumber for sale at .45/bf. so there is another sawyer sawing in the yard making more than he is selling. I keep 5000+ bf of sawn lumber in the yard for the walk in customer typically.

Don't forget neighborhood issues like noise or zoning.  Consider you might need a place to send your slab from the yard periodically, a flatbed truck or stakebed dumper, a loader to handle logs/lumber/sawdust as well.

As of last month I added a shavings mill to the list of support equipment. Support equipment now equals 5 times the cost of the original mill and I'm still a portable sawmill operation.

Eric

[FeltzE]

I'd add that as Stavebuyer mentioned that the manufactures estimates of production (although achievable) are unrealistic for the typical operator. You need to add in time to sharpen blades, travel to/from jobs, handle the product and advise novice customers.

A typical 1 1/2" blade band mill with hydraulics and a 30+hp motor out runs the "one man operator" To achieve the manufacture's estimates you need clean GRADE timber ( a rarity in on site and portable sawmilling), one or two helpers to stack and sticker your stock, add in a tractor/loader to move the logs into postion and slab out. Yard maintenance isn't factored into the mfr's plan either.

[Magicman]

Going back to the "worth it" question.  You stated that you had a "real job" and would gradually try to build up a sawing business.  That is the part that I heard.

Making a living with a startup portable sawmill business is a huge stretch no matter what your budget is.  My post above describes how I built up a supplemental income business.  Not a business that would make a living for a family.

I bought my WM LT40 SuperHydraulic sawmill used.  It has all of the bells and whistles necessary to handle any log that any of my customers has ever had.  That is very important.  I would not have been as successful with a lesser sawmill.

The former owner of my sawmill bought it to try to make a living with.  He went belly up in two years and still had a sawmill payment.  He went back to his former real job and the sawmill sat idle for a year.  There is not enough business within my area to support a "make a living" business, and I have it all.  I have one scheduled later this week that is 175+ miles away, but it will only be a two day job.

I have 18 saw jobs on my list that are in various stages of being ready to saw.  Folks will call and say "put me on your list" when they start getting logs out, etc.  I will do them all this year plus some more, but that still is not a "living".

[FeltzE]

Well said Magicman

[WDH]

I agree that it is a tough row to hoe to make a full time living custom sawing for random customers.  There are very few that I know of that do it or have done it as their main source of income.  Looking at it as a way to pay for a hobby or as a way to make supplemental income is more realistic.  There are very many factors out of your control, no matter how good you are.

[customsawyer]

There is a reason that most new businesses  go belly up in the first 5 years. It is tough to get any bus. up and running. The smaller you can start and get by with the better off you will be. When I first started I had a 9 year old forestry bus. that was well established so I was just adding another service. It helped that I had most of the support equipment that will be need (tractor with FEL, good truck and other trailers). I already had a customer base that made it easy to start the word of mouth advertising. It still took a couple of years to get the ball rolling.
I make my living doing nothing but sawmilling but my bus. is special in that I have found a specialty market to service. If you look at the people that make it doing nothing but milling the have one of two things going for them. One it is not there only source of income or they have a nitch market, some have both.
In answer to your question is it worth it. Yes . Just don't think it is going to be easy. Many have tried but few make it.

[hackberry jake]

  After a weekend of moving lumber and rolling cants on the mill, many need to go back to their day job to rest.

. I agree with this completely.

[Brad_S.]

I was a full time sawyer for 16 years. It is a tough way to make a living. It is physically exhausting (I was in my 30's and 40's at the time). I never did much more than earn a subsistance living. 
It is capital intensive: you need to add equipment to make more money, things break, things wear out.
You only make money when the blade is in wood, yet when running a business there is so much else to tend to that perhaps only 25-30 percent of your time is actually spent sawing. It is easy to think you are making money when you still have another job that is actually covering costs you don't think of such as health care insurance, phones, utilities and property taxes.
During the course of my business, I watched about a dozen competitors come and go... I don't know if they were smarter than me and saw the light and quit sooner or if they were lazier than me.
At your age (OUR age, actually) I would keep it an enjoyable hobby that is subsidized by your "real" job pay and find a less physical job to carry you into your retirement years.
Just my 2 cents worth. I am not trying to talk you out of a dream.

[Jim H]

I've been sawing full time for a while now. I make a decent living but the work is physical. I think you have gotten good advice to start as a hobby and see where it goes from there, I sawed part time for about 4 years before going f/t. I'm probably not too far from you, pm me if you like, I'd be glad answer any questions that I can.    Jim

[038magnum]

Thank you all for your honest input.
I still want to do this.
I think to make a business work. A lot is what you are willing to put into it. Like many have said if you do good quality work. Then your name will get out there. It is just going to take a while for this to happen.

[Magicman]

You are a good listener and will do well.

[Dave VH]

don't forget to have fun with it.  If you enjoy your work, then it isn't too hard to do as a side business after work. (if that makes any sense)  Sometimes I can't wait to get off work (my normal income) so that I can come home and work (mill). 

Wow, when I say it like that it sounds like I have a problem

[zopi]

it takes about two years minimum to get a business, any (well, legitimate) business up running and making money, on average...I thik that if you are trying to start the business as a means of affording the mill, you are skating thin ice...if you can afford to buy the mill, treat it as a pastime, source of wood for honeydoos, turkey blinds outhouses..whatever, then fine, go out and run some mills if you have not already, (I sent you a PM, if you are close you can come play with mine) and see how bad the sawdust bug bites you..it really is just like heroin..go look at my sawmill hit thread..you don't know heartbreak..anyway..if making the lumber and running the saw is all well and dandy, and you can afford to buy them mill, either cash outright or credit  (grumble..banks..not a good ally IMO) and pay it off on what you make then go for it and learn the trade...if you stop by the road and con someone out of a log and drag a mill out there and saw right in fron to god and everybody, they will come...stick a little sign up by the road, so folks too shy to stop and talk can get your number...and they will come. that sawdust bug bites EVERYONE, in some form or fashion..whether for the perceived gold mine of great wood, or the sawmill itself...they will come, and they will ask questions. but just jumping off into the business cold is probably not the smartest or easiest way to go about it (ask me how I know that..) now depending on where you are in VA...you could do really well, guy up the road from me is busting chops..me I have not really broken in yet, but hey..or not so well..up in the hills around charlotesville and on over into WVA sawmills, big ones are a dime a dozen, and the log yards are chockablock full of logs...a portable operation might still do ok up there depending on how you market and how far you are willing to go...but rough lumber up there is as common as fleas on my herd of cats...alot of research to do..market numbers, places for the wood to sell, places for the service to sell, can you get logs, do yu want to hadle logs, or just sw for customers on their site...what sorts of permits are required (just about buried the local codes guy in my backyard over him telling me I needed a permit for my mill. (YOU SAID, WHAT?) they decided it wouldn't really be necessary. anyway...hundred of details, thing you need to know to do it right, and make a living at it...
or..like mowing lawns treat it as a sideline and either limit the business to what you can/want to do, or let it grow (slowly) until you have a comfortable operation. I have noticed most folks (including me) try to do too much productive crap and not enough living...lol
Is it worth it?  is it worth what?  the money you put into it?  the blood sweat and tears? is it worth the investments of money, time and effort, versus the satisfaction you get out of it...for me, absolutely. I am making very little to no money doing it, and not really trying to right now, but there is little in ly life that holds more satisfaction than punching lumber out of a log..I absolutely love it  (go Woodmizer)
the money? is it worth the money you can make...well..answer the above, and ask yourself how hard you want to work..how much you are willing to put into it...that will largely answer the money equation.   with the exceptions of some variables. the dollars figures you get from manufacturers are very loosely figured...that doesn't mean wrong or misleading, necessarily, but there are always hidden or variable costs over and above the equipment and its operation/maintenance....insurance ( see my mill hit thread..you don't know heartbreak, get insurance specifically for your sawmill)  permits, registrations, yadda yadda..you get the point...

[morgoon]

Well I have been fixing to get my mill into portable mode for a while

For me the doldrums of the daytime job have been running high at times, and the honest answers by all of the above posters sure helps with the overall perspective of things

good info all around

[DR Buck]

I think most everything has been said already.   There are a lot of members gone from the forum that cashed it in.  Many had long runs at successful operations.  Many were in and out quickly.  I think the biggest thing to consider is customer base, value of the service and competition.   Do your research.   I do it as a part time business for supplemental income.    I turn away more work than I take so I'm not sure I could make it on milling alone.  Nor do I want to.  It's nice to be able to say no to jobs that could have issues ( read that as PIA customers).  If I was doing it full time as my only income it would be foolish to turn away work.

BTW - Where in Va are you located?   -  You know..... that competition thing I mentioned.   ;D

[bandmiller2]

That DanG Zopi would make a good preacher,well said.Stick you toe in the water before you jump in. Frank C.

[stumpy]

I think, the first thing you have to do is decide what kind of business you want.  If it's a "I love sawing and I'd like to make extra money from it" you can go down one path.  If it's "I want to make a wage and a profit like a real business" then it's a completely different road.  Both options are completely possible, just different paths. Many people go into the sawmill business and don't last because of a number of reasons. The first of which is they don't accurately identify the real costs of being in business.  Second, they don't realize how much work it is.  The fun part of it is the sawing, but there is much more to it.
Bottom line is, it's easy to make some extra money at your hobby.  It's another thing to make a profitable business out of it.  I'm not trying to discourage you at all, I'm just encouraging you to decide first what you want out of it and then consider all the details.

[Bogue Chitto]

After hurricane Katrina, I bought a LT 40 Sawmill.  People would bring the logs from their home that fell in the storm.  Sawmill was paid for in 6 months.  Now I do it part time when I get home or on the weekend and still make a profit.   

[Buck]

That DanG Zopi would make a good preacher,well said.Stick you toe in the water before you jump in. Frank C.

lol....There was another comment a few days back.."what would Zopi do?" The guy is a real inspiration these days.  smiley_clapping

[Chris Burchfield]

I have an excellent mill with all the horns and whistles.  I saw for myself and very few saw jobs.  I do like sawing, making boards and just operating the mill.  I think it's kinda like welding, one of the hottest jobs in the summer and one of the coldest jobs in the winter.  If you were to do it to replace your f/t job, bought something you had to make notes on, you'd have to be out there in the hottest and coldest of days to make the note.  Then again, until your established, jobs may be far and few between.  By yourself it can be very labor intensive.

Find someone close to you and see if you could tail for the sawyer a couple of days.  That'll maybe give you an idea of the labor involved.  I'm 53 yoa, will be 54 next month, not getting any younger.  Wet green wood is heavy.

[Chuck White]

Find someone close to you and see if you could tail for the sawyer a couple of days.  That'll maybe give you an idea of the labor involved. 

Well said Chris!

I learned by tailing for my FIL one summer and half of the next.
Then, he told me to take the mill and run it, "he had too much stuff to do at home".
We (Sheila and I) did good at it, then the following year we got our own mill!
We've been running it every since, except in Winter.

[Brad_S.]

I do it part time when I get home or on the weekend and still make a profit.

This is what I was trying to convey about "profit". I am guessing what you mean is that you cover the mill payment plus fuel and blades and have beer money left over.
Out of curiosity, have you kept track of the hours you spend moving logs, moving slabs, tweeking the mill, etc? Divide the profit by those hours for an hourly wage. How does that compare to your "real" job wage? Can you make that wage and pay your mortgage, taxes, utilities, insurance etc?
I am not at all slamming on you Bogue Chitto, I understand it is a hobby business for you. This was just an opportunity to get the guys considering going full time to look at what really constitutes profit.
I just wish someone had opened my eyes before I jumped in the deep end!

[tcsmpsi]

Realistically.  Being serious about 'making it a business', requires, first and foremost, the business ins and outs.  Forget all that 'feel good' while you figure.  Business is dollars in and dollars out.    Forget other income, if you have it, and leave it aside.

Business capital. How much do you have?  Will you borrow?  What rate for how long?  How much?  Going in to business, as a service/product oriented submission, is a long term project.  I have started and run two primary businesses for about 20 yrs each (including my current affair).  After 20 yrs of doing a thing, the 'fun' aspect becomes overun by the business aspect.  Liking business, itself....good business...is, I would say, a necessity.  I've always been notably diversified with the structure and applications, which leaves me able to blend a thing in or out of the structure as I see fit. 

When I slipped in the sawmill and other necessary support for the making of lumber from trees, already had the business structure and work the percentages (asset and debit) of milling into the fundamental end of every business year....taxes.

Is sawmilling, as strictly a business proposition, worth getting in to?  To make a living, I would have to know a great deal about the marketing aspect of my potential, realistically, before I could even consider it.

What I have seen a lot of, is that a wide array of business, large and small, is a continual process of 'catching up'.
Any money used in the business, that is not generated by the business, is 'borrowing'.  Even if it is/was your own money from wherever.

For me, the sawmill is another woodworking tool that allows me to utilize my existing resources (trees) and those of others (their trees) to form end products, in a specific manner of balance, to build family assets of diversified type and nature. 
Now, that, is what I find proper.
Long, long ago, I found I had no propensity for the application of "retirement", and have never lived my life in its pursuit.  That means I am always going to have to work for a living.  With that, it is always good to be able to breathe deeply of one's nature of work.  Over the years, I have applied, learned and been positively recognized in many diverse fields.  Those are my 'retirement funds'.

Today, I would suggest being very comprehensive with a keen edge given to caution, in deciding a significant business venture.

[Bogue Chitto]

Brad, you put another light on it.  The profit I was talking about was that I was able to pay for the mill very quickly because of the abundance of hurricane trees that was brought to my farm.  Now that it is part time the profit I make as you said is beer money  ;D. But yes. you do have to take in the other considerations (Health ins., Prop. tax, Mortgages, etc.)

[zopi]

Ought to distill this thread as a guide to starting any business...it is the stuff you do not see, amd   that nobody tells you that you need to know.

[Bogue Chitto]

If you enjoy it then profit is easier to come by.

[Bibbyman]

Having a mill and wanting to saw is only one leg holding up the table. 

You also need some related background to start to understand how to make product on the mill.  From that you'll need to do a lot of studying and practice.   After we'd got our first mill, one brother-in-law confided that another brother-in-law was at a loss as to why we got a sawmill – after all,  I don't know anything about them.  While yes, I'd never sawn on a bandmill,  I had three uncles that ran circle mills and my dad had logged some to a lot most of his life and all of my life.  So I had a lot of exposure.  I had helped build a couple of houses by the time I was 20 years old so I knew a 2x4 from a 1x12.

You'll need to know how to run a business.  There will be accounting to do.  Taxes. Insurance. Keeping expenses, etc.  You will need to understand cash flow and how much money to keep in reserve for breakdowns, insurance, etc.

Still all of the above is not enough.  You'll need to be an entrepreneur.  You'll need to know or learn how to promote your business and to target the business you want.  Not all business is good business.

Most essential is having an understanding wife with a good paying job with benefits.  It's pretty hard to borrow money when you put on the application "mobile sawing, self employed" under occupation.  Health insurance can make self-employment almost impossible.

There is no such thing as paid vacation, holidays, sick days, weekends, paid overtime, etc.

[beenthere]

Having a mill and wanting to saw is only one leg holding up the table. 

You also need some related background to start to understand how to make product on the mill.  From that you'll need to do a lot of studying and practice.   After we'd got our first mill, one brother-in-law confided that another brother-in-law was at a loss as to why we got a sawmill – after all,  I don't know anything about them.  While yes, I'd never sawn on a bandmill,  I had three uncles that ran circle mills and my dad had logged some to a lot most of his life and all of my life.  So I had a lot of exposure.  I had helped build a couple of houses by the time I was 20 years old so I knew a 2x4 from a 1x12.....

Very true, and you had Mary.

[cypresskayaksllc]

If you enjoy it then profit is easier to come by.

I must really hate it. :D

I like what bibbyman said "You'll need to be an entrepreneur.  You'll need to know or learn how to promote your business"
Saw jobs might come to you in some areas, not in mine. Ive been advertising low budget where ever I can think of for the past year (yard signs, cards, demonstrations, newspaper ads...) and I dont get as many jobs as Id like. But I think Im learning to be a better entrepreneur. My business has been increasing since I got the mill. But not as profitable as Id like to be.

[tcsmpsi]

If you enjoy it then profit is easier to come by.

A profit here, and/or a profit there, does not make a business profitable.  Actually, as I have seen many times, 'enjoying it' leads as much to delusion of profit.

As bibby mentions, things happen.  Expensive things happen.  And, sometimes, nothing is happening.  A few days of that, and we forego cornbread with the beans, hoping we don't have to forego beans in the water.

But then, what is Life without challenge?     :D

[Overlength]

Will have to plan on keeping day job, but can pay for nice hydro mill over time as you develop buisness. Would buy good used equipment, and you've already made a bunch of money. I bought good manual mill, but never planned on custom production cutting. Just cut high grade logs to sell wood. I'm 53 and it keeps me to good shape doing it part time. Couldn't image hand turning large logs and off loading slabs every day for high production on manual. Would get hydro. I would love to have a much larger sawmill one day. I think. Get into the 20,000 bf a day range.

[038magnum]

I want to work by myself most of the time. Not employ any help (off bearers) if possible.
The ones out there that are portable isn't that part of the deal when sawing for a customer. They provide the off bearers. If not than you charge extra. Right?

[shortlogger]

 everyone that I know that saws for the public charges a flat rate and if the customer wants to buck slabs and help stack thats just a bonus for the sawyer

[Magicman]

I just finished my 10th year of sawing and have never provided an off bearer.  That is my customer's responsibility.  If I hired and paid them then I would be the employer and I am not getting into the issues involved with taxes, insurance, liability, etc.

[MHineman]

I just finished my 10th year of sawing and have never provided an off bearer.  That is my customer's responsibility.  If I hired and paid them then I would be the employer and I am not getting into the issues involved with taxes, insurance, liability, etc.

I do the same.  So far everyone has always helped off bear without me ever telling them.
  I do tell them they need to be there when I'm sawing the log as there are questions about how to cut it to get what they want most of the time.

[038magnum]

That is the way I want to do it also.

[Jim H]

I just charge $60/hour whether the customer has help or not. If they provide labor and/or equipment it speeds up the job and saves them money. If they can't or don't want to help I do it by myself, it just cost more. I make more proffit on the jobs where I do everything, since the mill isn't using gas or blades while I move logs, but the work is more demanding. I might have different requirements for help 10-15 years from now. +1 on not becoming an employer.

[FeltzE]

This is the first year we are setting different rates,
- solid stacked-
- Stickered stacked -
- with help -
- without help -

And it wasn't my idea.

[tcsmpsi]

If you want to hire 'help', buy/build equipment.  In the end, it is more dependable, takes instruction better, produces more equitable relationship, and has a more straightforward tax approach.   ;D

I was building/remodeling/cabinet business for about 20 yrs, and, about 20 yrs ago, I began phasing out of that into the shop in town, that I still operate.  When I bought the property that the homestead/mill/etc. (previous homestead was knowingly and intentionally given to the lady of my divorce) is now on back in the early 80's, it was about 5 yrs growth of plantation, save for the old growth along the "natural watersheds".  Hurricane Katrina cinched the timing/deal for the sawmill.  As with any significant purchase, I always factor in the business aspect, and if I can't, I usually find I don't need it.

Looking ahead, I could see the definate indicators of troubled times looming, and my particular primary business at the shop taking a different path.  The last 5 yrs have shown a notable decrease in over the counter sales of firearms/accessories in this small town (about 6,000).  Internet sales of such products have booned.  Fundamentally, I am one person, taking care of many different things, and without capital enough to make a definitive approach to those internet sales. 

I had planned to ease woodworking more back in to the business, from the mill perspective/approach to finished products retailed from the shop in town.  Though it is and has been a concentrated effort, it is coming together.  Many setbacks of these last 4-5 yrs (economy, family, etc.) have constrained that process.   The plan is to convert the classroom to showroom, which will require another classroom which I have yet to build, but do, now, have the lumber milled for its production on the homestead.   Meanwhile, the septic system I put in about 25 yrs ago needs reworking and enlarged to accomodate all those heavy bladdered students...oh, and others (myself included).   :D

And, that's where I am today, a bunch of dug up root rich ground, new septic tank hole, all having seen about 10 inches of rain since I opened it all up a few days ago.   :D  So, certainly, I get to redo most of that...in my 'off' time, which is not really so, as it is all part of the business.   ;D

I work much more than not.   :D

[pnyberg]

I just charge $60/hour whether the customer has help or not. If they provide labor and/or equipment it speeds up the job and saves them money. If they can't or don't want to help I do it by myself, it just cost more.

This is my approach as well (even the same rate!).  This works out OK in most cases, but there was one instance where the customer provided no help, and wanted thick slabs.  Oof.  I need to learn to ask more questions.

--Peter

[DR Buck]

I just charge $60/hour whether the customer has help or not. If they provide labor and/or equipment it speeds up the job and saves them money. If they can't or don't want to help I do it by myself, it just cost more.

This is my approach as well (even the same rate!).  This works out OK in most cases, but there was one instance where the customer provided no help, and wanted thick slabs.  Oof.  I need to learn to ask more questions.

--Peter

Sure you get paid for it, but it takes longer when you have to stop milling to move logs and stack boards/slabs.   I prefer my approach charging by the BF and customer MUST supply help.   Then I can have a reasonable expectation of when I'm going home.  Has worked well for me for over 7 years, many times averaging over $100 per hour, and almost never under $45 an hour when BF rate is converted to hours spent on the job.

[038magnum]

Ok, if you have to travel 1 hour each way to a job and set up your mill, saw for 5 hours. At the end of the day you have 8 + or – hours in the job. I would hope to make at least around $700.00 if possible hopefully more. Is this realistic?

[Brad_S.]

 
No.

[Tom the Sawyer]

Maybe some sawyers in your area could chime in but to average at least $140 per hour when you are just starting out seems unreasonable.  At .40 per board foot that is at least 350 bf per hour (467 bf per hour at .30) and without supplemental equipment/help (which adds to your cost) it would be difficult to produce that much lumber as your minimum production level. 

You certainly might achieve that at times but to base your decision on maintaining that level of production is unrealistic.   Better to use realistic expectations and enjoy it when you can overperform rather than constantly worry about digging yourself out of a hole.   ;)

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

Maybe some sawyers in your area could chime in but to average at least $140 per hour when you are just starting out seems unreasonable.  At .40 per board foot that is at least 350 bf per hour (467 bf per hour at .30) and without supplemental equipment/help (which adds to your cost) it would be difficult to produce that much lumber as your minimum production level. 

You certainly might achieve that at times but to base your decision on maintaining that level of production is unrealistic.   Better to use realistic expectations and enjoy it when you can overperform rather than constantly worry about digging yourself out of a hole.   ;)

I don't travel Tom, I'm stationary. But if I were to think about going on the road, you have made some fine points. Good reply.

[zopi]

Seven hundred a day gross, is alot of dough.

I know some guys that do it...but they are mowing grass in high dollar neighborhoods.

[pnyberg]

Ok, if you have to travel 1 hour each way to a job and set up your mill, saw for 5 hours. At the end of the day you have 8 + or – hours in the job. I would hope to make at least around $700.00 if possible hopefully more. Is this realistic?

I'll agree with 'No'; but I'll expand a little.

Here's how the numbers would work out using my billing structure:

• Let's say that 1 hour each way is 50 miles each way.  I charge $1.00 per mile one way for travel, so that's $50.  The charge is for the expense of moving the machine to the job.  For the driver (sawyer) the drive is the commute to work.  Few people get paid for the time it takes them to drive to work.
• I do charge for setup time, which is usually about 20 minutes.  At an hourly rate of $60 per hour, that's another $20.  I don't charge for the time it takes to pack up.
• 5 hours of milling at $60 per hour is $300.

So for that job, I'd expect a payment of $370 (plus tax where applicable).

--Peter

[WDH]

No.  You need to get into a different business, maybe banking or running drugs  :D.

You would have to be in some kind of specialty or niche sawing business to make that kind of money on a daily basis.

[pnyberg]

Sure you get paid for it, but it takes longer when you have to stop milling to move logs and stack boards/slabs.   I prefer my approach charging by the BF and customer MUST supply help.   Then I can have a reasonable expectation of when I'm going home.  Has worked well for me for over 7 years, many times averaging over $100 per hour, and almost never under $45 an hour when BF rate is converted to hours spent on the job.

I milled about 400 bdft of oak for a nice lady yesterday.  This was a suburban homeowner, as are most of my customers.  She did help.  She carried one end of each board that came off the mill.  I carried the other end.  There were issues with getting logs loaded as well.  At the end of the day I billed her for 5 hours and 20 minutes.  That's about $1.25 per bdft.

In general, I have only the vaguest expectations of when I will be headed home beyond the fact that I don't saw after dark.

--Peter

[zopi]

Never let it be said that there is not an encyclopedia of knowledge on here...business one oh one amd seige engines today...and steam engines...

[customsawyer]

I figure my bf/hour based on the actual time on the job if you want to figure in the driving time as well then I am going to have to re figure. Most portable jobs I do I am able to get pretty close to 500 bf/hr but you have to keep in mind that I take my own tractor and edger with me on most of these jobs. All this extra equipment comes at a cost.

[tcsmpsi]

Something which has not been made plain, in any of the posts in this thread, is the bottom line difference on how much one charges or 'makes' off a certain manner/job.  Someone mentioned charging $1.00 a mile for travel.  What is the full nature of the cost of that mile?
My business day begins when I have my work clothes on and head out the door of the house.  This morning, that was 4:24 AM.  Expense begins from that moment.  It ceases when I walk in the house and take my boots off at the end of the day, which averages 12 hrs a day, 7 days a week (mostly...but some 'partial business' days)(time off for good behavior).

The moment I open the door of the truck, I start using a machine which I have calculated the average cost of machine, maintenance, repair, insurance as being just a little over $25 a day, or a little over $2 an hour of business time.  Fuel is additional, at today's consideration of reasonable $4 a gal.  Pulling equipment, I am looking at about 14-15 mpg as an average.  So, at 50 miles, that would be roughly 3 gals, or $12.  During that drive time, the operator might need to eat or drink a bit.  Reasonably, we can consider cost of that 50 miles to be roughly (operator must be clothed, etc.) $15.   At $1 per mile, 50 mile=$50.   Of course, there is the 'make ready' time (hook-ups, gathering tools, etc.) which we could reasonably figure 30 mins./half an hour.  $50-15=$35 for 1.5 hrs labor, or about $25 an hr.  Did I mention there are no end to contingencies for a small business owner/operator, who is solely responsible?
Figuring milling costs, any other cost of equipment, tools, insurance, permits, fees, TAXES, etc., plus a reasonable 'buffer' (those contingency things), should all be no less diligently considered, for what you actually 'make'.  Of course, this is necessary to determine its "worth".  I would say a week to ten days of deliberate consideration and detailed analysis, giving a little time to catch those things that come to light, from time to time, should give one a reasonably good, overall view.

[FeltzE]

Back to the topic,  I'd say YES it's worth it.  BUT have a backup plan (keep your day job)If you are as most all are on this site even moderately successfull the sawmill and some effort will net you a profit, eg. make your saw payment and beer money. Assess the market and develop your skill and knowlege in your particular niche. When you reach a threshold of sustainment quit your day job.

HOW MUCH PROFIT? Thats a loaded question...

Consider that an average of 200-300bf/hour (IMO) is a reasonable expectation of production on a hydraulic mill with a helper stacking lumber. AND know that everything slows you down from those expectations, (clean up, making stickers, edging, moving logs, moving sawdust, moving slabs, moving the mill, poor logs etc)

Many people have a single tree they may want cut, 3 pieces of large oak strewn across a yard on a slope.. 4 trees out back of a home in a fence.. on a slope cut to within an inch of your mill capabilities... (4 nails, 2 eye hooks... all grown over and saw fodder. All slows you down.

Every job is different - some take longer time to set up, or the log quality is poor, or there is tramp metal, or your cutting large stock (high production) or thin short stock (low hourly production) or muddy logs. My best saw job was 75,000 feet of sawgrade pine cutting large stock, the worst, small twinkie logs around 8 inches 6-8 feet totalling less than 1000bf (of course the customer wants clear lumber out of knotty pine... hmmmmm?)

What is the local rate for portable sawmilling?  Here .21 - .30 cents/bf. Hourly is kinda frowned apon as people are concerned about the $60/hr rate which equals .30/bf @ 200bf/hr sawing. Some places are higher.   Pine RC lumber sells for .50 so you can imagine that it caps the portability price.

Starting up, you can't expect to be full time. It takes time to develop your business and exposure.

Lastly, if it were easy and as profitable as some would have you believe. There would be a sawmill on every corner!!!  If I didn't have a sawmill, I'd buy a zero turn mower and start a lawn care business. It's cheaper and people want you weekly!

[tcsmpsi]

After the nuts and bolts are figured, then you can analyze what the overall worth is, to you.  You have already shown the want for change.  Why?  What are you looking for, specificially?  Want more control of what your energy produces in Life with regard to the well being of all things?

In the end, any service can be made profitable, with time and money.  The suggestions to start part time to ease into it, make sense to see if the business of it is something you can live with comfortably.

[wdtik]

  I'm kinda late to this discussion and not having actually owned/run a portable
sawmill business I'm only somewhat qualified to comment on this.

There are a number of new mobile bandsaw business starting up in this area due to A:
pine beetle out break  B: influx of new out of state people moving to the area.

If I were considering starting a sawmill business mobile or otherwise I would think
"value added".  I have been seeing some very nice new horse barns/cabins/ski lodges.
going up around the area---150 mile radius and I know they are being built at least in part
by guys with mobile bandmills.  And I know some are making really good money...not just getting by.

I've also seen a number of these mill startups come and go,  I would guess lack of capitol/business experience is partly responsible for the turnover in some regards.

  Example:  a good friend recently purchased a 60 acre mining claim in the mts-- remote location.
  He had a cabin built by a guy with a high end WM.  They did everything, punched in the road
dug a  pond and foundation ect.  The trees cut from the roadway were used for the cabin the year after the
rough work was done, he had a dozer, excavator ect maybe 10 guys on the actual cabin build.  He was not
local but from maybe 200 miles out.  He has a waiting list.. even in this market..The WM is just one of his
tools,  I can cite several more of these stories..Some where the logs are hauled out via helicopter to not
one but two highend mills....
  Just my opinion  CBD

[wesdor]

Be careful about the insurance coverage.  We have a sawyer in our area that just stopped doing on-site with his LT70 because insurance no longer covers him when he is offsite.  We may now take logs to him, but he has to use his own off-bearer.  Obviously his cost has now increased.

Be sure you are covered.

[038magnum]

I have a phone call in to my agent about this venture that I want to get into. He has not got back with me yet. Boy did he ask the questions!
I wonder if anyone else out there is having the same problem with their insurance for their portable sawmill business. Can they find good insurance for this type of business? Are the premiums very high?

[zopi]

There is no such animal as good insurance...much like banks.....

[Leigh Family Farm]

Thanks to all who have posted. This information was spot on for those looking to venture into saw milling or any business for that matter.

I would like to add a little tidbits on the business side:
1. Research your market area. As mentioned above, figure out how far you are willing to travel to accurately figure in costs (maintenance, salary, operational, etc.). Is there a market for your services in your area? Not the market that you see but the actual market. Talk to tree services, lawn care companies, builders, lumber yards, and anyone else involved with trees or wood. If these folk can tell you that they come across a lot of down trees, customers needing logs cut up, or shops needing a supply of a specific type of wood but don't carry it in small amounts, then there is a market.
2. Reduce your expenses, increase your income. Simple business theory. If you can't do one, then you need to do the other. This is why you start small. You will see the areas where you can avoid costs (eg. traveling over 50 miles) or increase income (eg. making mulch from scrap by renting a wood chipper once a month).
3. Call your local scuba diving company and ask who their insurance company is. Scuba diving is one of the most difficult professions to get insurance for. When asking the local log/wood trades about market area, ask them for their insurance company. Be prepared to pay a high premium but don't cut without it! If you have no liability insurance and you damage a customer's property with your equipment, they can come after you, your wife, your home, everything.
4. Learn all you can from others. Ask questions of small business owners in your area. Join the SBA. If you don't know what that is, look it up.
5. Murphy is you silent partner. Don't under estimate Murphy's capabilities to royally mess things up.

Remember, its your dream, go make it happen. Don't let others deter you from ever reaching your dream. 

[Delawhere Jack]

Thanks to all who have posted. This information was spot on for those looking to venture into saw milling or any business for that matter.

I would like to add a little tidbits on the business side:
1. Research your market area. As mentioned above, figure out how far you are willing to travel to accurately figure in costs (maintenance, salary, operational, etc.). Is there a market for your services in your area? Not the market that you see but the actual market. Talk to tree services, lawn care companies, builders, lumber yards, and anyone else involved with trees or wood. If these folk can tell you that they come across a lot of down trees, customers needing logs cut up, or shops needing a supply of a specific type of wood but don't carry it in small amounts, then there is a market.
2. Reduce your expenses, increase your income. Simple business theory. If you can't do one, then you need to do the other. This is why you start small. You will see the areas where you can avoid costs (eg. traveling over 50 miles) or increase income (eg. making mulch from scrap by renting a wood chipper once a month).
3. Call your local scuba diving company and ask who their insurance company is. Scuba diving is one of the most difficult professions to get insurance for. When asking the local log/wood trades about market area, ask them for their insurance company. Be prepared to pay a high premium but don't cut without it! If you have no liability insurance and you damage a customer's property with your equipment, they can come after you, your wife, your home, everything.
4. Learn all you can from others. Ask questions of small business owners in your area. Join the SBA. If you don't know what that is, look it up.
5. Murphy is you silent partner. Don't under estimate Murphy's capabilities to royally Mess things up.

Remember, its your dream, go make it happen. Don't let others deter you from ever reaching your dream.

Hank from Longwood, is that you?

[drobertson]

038,  I started part time while working for an injection mold tool room. Part time is good, but the timing seemed to always be a bit off, weather, schedules,(family time) ect. If you can work this out all the better. Then went full time in 2008, after massive layoffs, I decided to quit my job,(maybe not smart) and go for it. I did have a great deal of work that first year, cutting nearly 200m feet for an outfit that needed a support mill. They did all the moving of logs, slabs, and various beams I was cutting.  This was the perfect picture. then they closed. Portable jobs are just come and go. Economy has many folks clawing for money. Lots of good advice here from the other folks for sure. If you go for it, get an edger at least, and a hydraulic mill for certain. Not sure too many folks will pay 100 bucks an hour if speed is not there. Not sure about that.  I cut for anywhere between .15 and .30 cent a bdft. This works for both parties. And there are, after awhile many return custormers. Working for yourself is rewarding, specially watching projects completed, barns, bridges,log homes ect. Go for it, just remember keep the blade in the log! and oh yea, make quality no. one. Even If they say it does't matter.  When they start building it will matter,  Hope the best for you,  david

[1woodguy]

Lots of good info brought up!
If your nt seeing things with eyes wide open lots of times your bustin your rear for naught
Occasionally I run across a deal on a property near the lake.
I have several brothers at times we partner up. One sees a pile of gold big as a mountain on most deals
The other I feel is to picky and holds off and I have lost out on deals waiting for him to up his share
I am kind of in the middle but this is an area I have more experience than them
I look each place over three times
Try to see things their way and mine
I don't have a mill yet still thinking about it
if I needed to make a living doing something full time
Stick with something you know for the most part
Had a lawn service years ago wasn't paying (wife thought it was going well)
Raised prices up and lost customers interestingly enough ended up gaining more than was wanted did more culling ended with doing 60% of work and wear and tear and more money

[BandsawWarrior]

To the OP
If you want to mill lumber and have a hobby, get a sawmill. 
If you want a full time job where you work very hard and make very little "profit", get a sawmill.
If you want to make money in the lumber industry get a industrial planer moulder and a resaw. 

It's hard to two guys to saw 1000bf/day 5 days a week on a bandsaw.  There's so many other time consuming things that need to be done to make this happen. 

However, it's easy for two guys to run 5000bf through planer in 2-3 hours.  This could be anything from T&G to log siding. 

The problem with small sawmill operations is that they're not easily scalable.  Small orders are a waste of time and large orders usually have time constraints that can't be met by a one to two person operation.  Also, the capital investment never ends.  After your sawmill purchase you'll realize you need an edger, resaw, straight line rip, jump saw, loader, forklift, storage shop, trailer, and so on.   

This is where reman operations are flexible.  Two people can easily process orders up to 50,000bf in a timely manner.

If I could turn back time and do it all over again I would get a kiln first and then a planer moulder.  Probably the last piece of equipment would be a portable bandsaw.   

The most important thing to remember is that the money is in the sales.  Just think of lumber brokers who can supply 10 orders at the same time by working with multiple sawmills all while the person standing at his "bandsaw" is working on one order. 

Even small operations have to meet a certain minimum level of sales to be profitable.  In my experience it's very difficult to meet this minimum volume requirement with a small sawmill.  Getting orders is not the problem...getting production is. 

my2cents

[WDH]

Some good points.  From my experience in the wood industry, unless you have a niche market, the name of the game in the sawmilling business, especially the commodity side, is productivity and efficiency.  Waste and inefficiency and high log cost will put you under.

[Stephen1]

I am slowly getting into this. I have not quit my full time job. Today I agreed to travel to a job, 60 miles away. I It is 1 yard tree 11' feet of Sugar Maple 38". I told him I wi;l travel for free as it is my 1st year in business, but my rate is 65$  an hour all inclusive of the time there with a minimum of 4 hours.  I will make a grand total of $260. I told him if we find hardware it takes time to remove it, and we migh go over the 4 hour hrs. He has tod me I have to leave at the 8 hr mark as that is what is budget for this tree is.  :D. He also told me that I am the only one willing to cut a yard tree, so maybe I have found my niche, I know when I did the 200 DF beams I had the same comment from them. I did make money on the job, real good money, $525 a day plus sharpening at night that I charged for. They were long days and nights for sure along with my regular job. By the end I knew I really liked this sawing business and wanted to pursue it more.
Good luck!

[Cedarman]

Stephen, if yard trees it be, then have a good metal detector,  hammer and chisel is nice, a good axe helps.  I like a big pair of vise grips.  Sometimes a crow bar for the big nails.
Those yard trees are like a box of cracker jacks, you never know what is inside.  In your case I hope the cracker jack box doesn't have a surprise in  it.
Happy sawing.  ZING!!!

[Leigh Family Farm]

To the OP
If you want to mill lumber and have a hobby, get a sawmill. 
If you want a full time job where you work very hard and make very little "profit", get a sawmill.
If you want to make money in the lumber industry get a industrial planer moulder and a resaw. 

It's hard to two guys to saw 1000bf/day 5 days a week on a bandsaw.  There's so many other time consuming things that need to be done to make this happen. 

However, it's easy for two guys to run 5000bf through planer in 2-3 hours.  This could be anything from T&G to log siding.... 

Bandsawwarrior, very interesting point of view. I am looking to get into the portable sawmill business in a year or so and I would have thought that the purchase order would be bandsaw, edger, kiln, planer, and then a resaw (in that order). Have you found that there is a larger supply of rough sawn lumber that planing is more profitable in the beginning?

[JustinW_NZ]

Having just started into a portable venture 6 odd months ago heres my ten cents...

Had the same questions you asked, found a lot of the answers from these fine folks on here in old threads.  :P
I guess we all come into this with our own reasons why and that will often dicate our actions, so excuse the background fill, but i think its usefull? - tell me otherwise..

(backgroud)
It started for me because the wife and I were looking at land with trees that to get value from them needed a mill, however the deal didnt go ahead but i had found a mill for sale locally that looked very versatile and feature packed. (1997 Woodmizer LT-40 SH +resaw +shapener/setter)
decided to give this a punt as my day job was getting a bit slow and ive been doing that for a long time, the wife agreed and we bought the second hand unit.
(end of background)

A couple of things were key to me;
1 - Had to be portable and hydrolic as my help (wife/family/friends) might be around OR might be busy should I need them (and yes a 43hp diesel on one of these mills will stuff you if operating by yourself)
2 - It was only a weekend project that needed to "pay for itself" i.e if its working, it need to pay its costs BUT we can afford the small amount of money from a loan to purchase it even if it sits in the driveway being unused. (might hurt but doable)

Funnily enough, my day job has gone nuts and i havent had time to get out there and advertise/chase bussiness so the mill sit's idle currently!
In our area I think portable milling would be an income (part time) but not really a big money earner - not that the money is everything to me, or others here? i think, i like getting out and about somewhat.
BUT im a strong believer in Value add so i wish to build a kiln and stuff sooner rather than later and i think that could turn into something more?

It currently looks a job i did for a local logging firm is leading rapidly into just buying select saw logs from small acre holdings they are taking on as this crew also does firewood/land clearing and the they like keeping a small ground crew busy while in between larger jobs.
Right now were looking at paying slightly higher per ton for the logs than chip price BUT that could be price on the skid, so no transport cut out of it.
So the crew logs the stand, selects the good wood for me, puts it on small deck piles, i roll in after and process it as quickly as possible.
This is something perhaps you could pursue look for a similar two way relationship??

It looking like it could work here partly because a lot of these small jobs are not worth it for logging outfits or more importantly the TIMBER owner they dont go ahead, so if you can tip the scale on a lot were it was going to be "trees all gone to the mill heres the bill" to "trees gone, betters ones left for a portable sawer - heres the small cheque" it then works out well for everyone as I get good logs handed to me to make things out off and the logging outfit gets some fill in work to keep them going and the small land/tree owner makes a few bux..
Perhaps this is the niche im heading into locally?

Currently with little support equipment (nor do i want it currently) this suits very well as its not really needed for this.
It does mean I have to target selling finished products like garden sleepers etc currently as i cant process the roughsawen lumber into much else.
My sister in law owns a garden shop though, so can sell them in there and it keeps the extended family happy as they can make there cut... 

This will vary perhaps by area on what demands/mills/timber there is perhaps, in New Zealand pine or douglas fir is plantation growen on a large scale, no hope to compete with products there unless I was doing a large beam or one off piece/s?
But most other types like ecualyptus or Macrocarpa and "worthless" for production mills but make good timber for other uses (flooring, decking, green garden products, etc etc)

OH - that reminds me, because I did a little research, I soon figured most portable mills around the area are swing mills they arent so good (lower yeild) or just avoided doing ecualyptus which lead me to think - hey get a band mill (IMHO more versatile for this) and target the life out of that since theres lots of it and only one other local firm wants it.
And much to my surprise my first job yeilded 6 cubic meters of some very nice looking hardwood ecualytus!  8) (aweful stuff to learn on unless you like learning FAST!)

I think the "portable milling is it worth getting into" should have "in my area" tacked to the end off it personaly, as everyones area is different.

Some of you more knowledgable forum dwellers please pick this to bits  8)

Cheers
Justin

[drobertson]

Hey Kilgrosh, sounds like you have a plan. I put in a resaw last summer, jit for the buyer to start shutting people off. It takes allot of cants to make one bundle of cut stock,  but the edger, mill, and some kind of loader a must to run up the totals.  I do most of my edgeing on the mill, I am by myself and it just works out better for me. The main thing is a steady supply of something to cut.

[Leigh Family Farm]

Thanks for the tidbit DrRob and Justin. Each area is different and I need to do more research on what is viable in my area. I am in the same boat as Justin, in that the mill will need to either pay for its purchase cost each month OR pay for its operating cost. My current job allows me to handle one or the other but not both.

[drobertson]

I have found that in these recent times that cutting out for folks what they need and taking the remainder to local flooring mills works for all parties. I have gave in to the big bucks and try to just cover the operating cost and make a paycheck. It does work, it is just allot of work. Talking with tie buyers openly about what you are doing goes a long way. Many times the market gets flooded but not so much for small orders. It is not a big check but a check the same. Cash flow is the name of the game as far as keeping logs on the yard, but quality tops all. Junk is easy to find, and no one really wants to deal with this.  Keep the blade in the log!  work smart and it will pay off.  Find local wood workers, pig farmers, anyone who needs less than 1000 bd/ft and the checks will be there. Just cut quality!   david

[Leigh Family Farm]

Pig farmers?! Is there some special cut of lumber that they use?

[drobertson]

No not really, but most of what they use  is 6"  and 4" for panels. Low grade stuff. It sure beats .05 cents a bd/ft.
Most of the time I get .40 cents a bd/ft. remember this is niche, and you can strip it and wait, unless folks are not building. Even so, many folks are putting up metal roofs, and 4" is a great nailer for this. Keep your options open. You might even use some yourself. just be ready to sell, and have it good enough to build with. 

[drobertson]

Brother I have to admit, I have skipped a bunch of posts.  Sawing custom you can figure, with a hydraulic mill, between 20 and 80 bucks an hour. This has been the status quo for the last several years.  No bs here. There are real good days, and some days, well thats' what they are.  84 bucks an hour is the best I have done, no bull here, If I were to try and give you an accurate number, 30 bucks an hour, but this is not for every hour of every day, through the week.  I quit keeping up with it, I just like to live, three kids in college, a wife that supports me, and custormers that appreciate quality work. And It is hard and hot, and In a few months it will be cold. That is about it brother, that being said, cover the bases, find the markets, follow up on the jobs, and they will return.  David

[1woodguy]

Quite good information in this topic well worth reading!

[drobertson]

I just got back from taking in a load of ties, They are restructering a bit. In that they pay on the yard rather than waiting for the check, a good thing, but they are busting every bundle and inspecting every tie. this has never happened before.  All went well, but while we were talking the buyers and I were discussing bad backs and small checks. the buyer said he just came from a mill where the ole man, (more man than me) 83 years old, was still running his mill, by hand. Keeping his grandson covered up with lumber at the tail!  Paul Bunyon came to mind,  It is just hard work, but like they all have said, "once sawdust gets in you vains, it is over" It is very rewarding, nothing else to say.    david

[sigidi]

I've been pushing a Lucas of one kind or another for almost 10 years, I've only had it as my sole income for the last 2 years and recently have 'made' money. I do mobile jobs(anywhere up to 500km each way at times), sub-contract to other Lucas owners (my favorite saying is there are a lot of owners but a lot less operators), sell my own timber, cut split posts for myself to sell and also for others to use on their properties. I answer my own phone calls and emails, do my own quotes, my own accounting, my own maintenance, tail my own lumber, find and harvest my own logs, and load and deliver them myself as well as deliver my timber myself - you get the idea. Most days now see me waking at 0430 and could still be welding some gear or cleaning down a saw, maybe even sharpening chains until 2330, there have been 3-4 week runs where I have 2-3 days off in the 4 weeks (the main reason I am a bit slow getting here at times)

I recently had my 10 year old daughter come to live with me, some days see me getting her to before school care around 0630 if I have a big job on and picking her up from school anywhere up to 1830, but often I get to take her to school at 0830 and pick her up around 1700. I get to take the day off to see her at sports day, or go to the school to see her 'art' days, can take the whole week off when its school holidays, or like Friday I started the mill at midday, by 1330 had cutting $390 order and had a BBQ and a beer with the chaps at the construction site before picking my daughter up at 1500.

I pay my bills, keep my gear maintained, buy stuff when I want to and still get to save a little for when/if I don't have jobs on. There isn't a week that goes by I don't thank the Lucas boys for making such a machine which lets me have such a flexible time with my daughter. Admittedly, I don't think I will be able to afford to buy my own home on my mill income, unless I start to hire guys who can cut while I line up more stuff, but I don't drink, I don't smoke, I don't gamble, don't have a boat or take holidays each year - so my bills are small.

Like many have said it depends what you call is it worth it... for me being able to take a day off to go to my little girls school and not worry about 'losing my job' or if I can pay the bills - that is more than worth it - thanks Lucas ;D

[FeltzE]

It's hard to two guys to saw 1000bf/day 5 days a week on a bandsaw.  There's so many other time consuming things that need to be done to make this happen. 

However, it's easy for two guys to run 5000bf through planer in 2-3 hours.  This could be anything from T&G to log siding. 

The problem with small sawmill operations is that they're not easily scalable.  Small orders are a waste of time and large orders usually have time constraints that can't be met by a one to two person operation.  Also, the capital investment never ends.  After your sawmill purchase you'll realize you need an edger, resaw, straight line rip, jump saw, loader, forklift, storage shop, trailer, and so on.   

 

[in my opinion]
Considering a portable bandsaw with 1 1/2 blades, and one good loader (tractor or off road forklift) 2000 feet a day is easy, more would be difficult

You will spend $20,000 on that planer molder operation not including knives and a building to run those T&G rates and you still need the forklift

Nothing is easily scaleable, the sawmill is only (variabily) 20% of your inititial investments, you need blades, sharpeners, loaders, potentially planer and kiln space. No everyone doesn't have them, but they easily become ancellary to the sawmill depending on your market area.




There is a definitive niche business "bubble" as I like to think about it. If you pay for your equipment up front and don't incur excessive debt, don't hire laborers, and remain flexible you will profit well from your time spent 75% profit from your gross income. If you leave that small bubble, you incur labor cost, more insurance cost, greater liability. Your profit margin drops and you need to scale up to make your acceptable level of personal income.

Is it worth it, Yes for me. But I don't normally charge hourly if I do its about 50/hr. Or a minimum charge for a small job. Its by the board foot and although we have our great days, they aren't the normal, as there are more saws popping up annually keeping the prices low.