Went to work Tuesday on a remodeling job, front door hangin' wideopen and not a tool in sight. Police took tire track pictures and said, odds are slim of finding them. Ya, they was insured. But it use not be that way. You could leave your keys in the car.We never locked the house and everyone helped everyone. And people had a sence of pride. Beleave me, I teach my children these values as I was. Sorry for the venting, it just gets me. Whats this country headed for?
Its only going to get worse. Here in Minnesota the court system is run by the DNR, they use the catch and release system. the times that they are caught, they put them in jail till they go to ther hearings they they plea it down to time served, so there out in a few days if they play the game, and free to do it again. Oh unless its a DWI those people have money fine the heck out of them and take the car if they dont it many times.
According to a news article, the State of California is looking at releasing 40,000 prisioners early to lessen over crowding in the prisions. A decent precentage of our population is in prision. Not good.
I googled the stats and there is about 2,200,000 people in prision in the USA. We have 1/4th the Population of China and they just have 1.6 million in prision. There is a 1.5 to 2 % increase per year.
Had some gas and diesel stolen this summer with a chainsaw from the mill. If I catch them they will not be going to jail. ER maybe if they live that long, but not jail. Meth heads are the worst at stealing here. As unemployment keeps rising so will thefts. Sure make a man mad to come to work and his tools are missing. >:(
We are currently thinning a pine stand and there is a large junkyard across the road. Yesterday, a car hauler out of Washington state comes out of there loaded with "rebuilt" cars (I thought surely they weren't hauling salvage cars from North Carolina to Washington to sell, but I dunno). They pull over on the side of the road, just up from our decking area, and commence to securing their load and fiddling around with whatever. They finally go to leave, but can't get started off, so they back up right into a large road sign, smashing it over with the back car, an SUV that suffered some fresh damage from its encounter with the sign. I am waving, trying to get them to stop to no avail. They try to start again and the truck dies. They get out some tools and are going back and forth. I assume they can't start off on that hill and walk up there to offer assistance. They said while sitting there, the fuel ran from one tank to the other side and they were out of fuel in the drawing tank. I offered to take them to get some fuel, and they declined. They continued to work at it, attempting to siphon fuel from one tank to the other. I offered to have the skidder pull them to the other side of the road so the fuel would drain back over, but that we wouldn't take any responsibility for any damage to the truck in the process. They declined that as well, but asked if they could borrow some starting fluid. I gave them a can that still was about a quarter full, and a bit later they brought the empty can back, asked if I had another can. I handed him a brand new can and off he went. A few minutes later, the truck fires up, they hop in and are off, taking the starting fluid with them and have yet to offer a thank you or anything. Now while my stolen can of starting fluid is certainly nothing to lose sleep over, it is simply the principle of the thing. I would have given them the starting fluid, and another can to boot if they asked, but taking it really burns me. I went out of my way to offer them help every way I could, as I would hope someone would do for me in their predicament. I also know I'd thank anyone who bothered to help me sincerely, and I'd certainly not try to take anything from them. Seems the world is full of these types though. Pretty pathetic
Yes I understand tt, one side of you is mad at yourself for helping them and the other side of you is mad at them for being so rude. Wouldn't it have been nicer if they had thanked you kindly, and then both sides of you would be happy for offering a hand.
Quote from: ARKANSAWYER on February 07, 2009, 12:17:39 PM
I googled the stats and there is about 2,200,000 people in prision in the USA. We have 1/4th the Population of China and they just have 1.6 million in prision. There is a 1.5 to 2 % increase per year.
I believe that is because China outright kills them? Sorry to hear your tools were stolen, Ironmower.
I have a little story to add. A few years a go I bought a lincoln gas powered welder/generator. Used, from a guy I knew, I think for about 300 bucks. I had it in the back of my pickup one day, and went to get fuel. Our fuel station in town has diesel out back about a hundred yards. The pump was acting up, so I walked in for help. 5 min later, we come out, she gets it working and I am standing there filling up when I realize my tailgate is down, and welder is gone. I could see the tire tracks in the dust, they backed up, passenger got out, dropped both tailgates, rolled it into their truck, got in and drove off. Broad daylight. I never heard anything about it from the sheriff. Probably sold it to get high a couple times, then go steal something else.
Yes Patty, that would have been much nicer indeed.
the people in prison that done no harm to anyone but themselves should not be their why should people paying taxes support them :( :( 8)
I took pity on an older well dressed English fella at an amish auction about two years ago. He had a goose neck and a bunch of paying amish men with him. We were about 200
miles from home on a Saturday afternoon in the middle of Amish counry. He happened to live in an adjacent county to me back home. He had a trailer flat and there was NO way he was going to get home until Monday unless I loaned him my "second" spare (always like to carry two). So, he gave me his cell number and I gave him my card and felt it would get back to me as he profusely thanked me. Well you can guess where this goes, I have called "his # for the last two years about every other month. @$%^&& ^$$##. I just never learn.
No spare, I still carry two, next time I will require a CASH deposit. Ironwood
Getting a deposit on stuff you loan out may be rude and crude, but I sleep better at night. Jumper cables, battery , gas can. Now, I have given gas to several people and they have offered to pay and I refuse to take their money. I have benefited a few times from others. I am just cynical in my later years.
Ironmower,
I empathize with you on the burglary. It's not only the loss of the tool, but the fact that you have been invaded that is maddening.
There is nothing I can think of good to say about a thief, but the lowest of the low is one who steals another mans tools. He has not only stolen your stuff, but your ability to replace it, not to mention your difficulty in feeding your family and paying the bills.
With the ice storm going on and the shortage of generators lost were getting stolen. One guy had bought a bunch and were selling them out of the back of his truck to people during the day. For a higher price of course. Well he went to bed one night and kept on waking up stil hearing his generator. He woke up cold and heard his motor running but no power. Someone put a lawnmower outside and cleaned him out.
We was on a job one time and they wiped out all our batteries and fire putter outers. One time stole our pressure washer and air compressure. I hate thiefs. Sorry about your tools Ironmower
Thanks for the support guys. Sounds like there might be hope for us yet, I'll pick up the pieces, hold my head high and go on. Like my dad use to say "It will be all sorted out at the end."
I was robbed while on a mountaineering trip in Mexico years ago w/ some troubled teens. The thieves went into our camp while we were on a acclimaitizing hike up the lower flank of the mountain w/ the boys. They took about $3000 worth of gear and tents, $1200 of my personal gear. I gotta say in that senario it didn't bother me much as the people thieving were likely trying to feed their families. In this country it is likely to feed a drug habit. The real downer for me was the non-profit Christian camp I was working for refused to provide ANY reimbursement for our personal goods even though their insurance would likely pay for it.
Sorry for your loss Ironmower, but you gotta look at it this way, their is ALWAYS someone worse off than you. Tenacity is a strong suit of anyone in business, you'll get through this and probably be better for it. Like you said, it all evens out in the end.
Ironwood
This thread makes me think of the guy in Texas that shot 2 burglers in his neighbors yard. Last I heard it looked like he was gonna get off, Im rooting for him!
I don't even buy the "he has a family to feed" excuse. A thief is still a thief. What he takes isn't his and he's hurting his fellow man, with no consideration for the victims well being.
Tom,
I suppose I hear you, but when you see REAL, I man real desperation it kind makes me feel SOOO fortunate that , well I would not really hold it against them. I have seen that many times travelling across remote parts of Mexico and Peru. I have driven to Mexico City 4 times overland, it is,.................well, lets just say it changes your perspective a bunch.
A very blessed Ironwood
I went around the block one time too. :)
There is a difference in stealing a watermelon or carrot from someone's garden, when you can't find the owner; and stealing a man's personal belongings and his tools. :)
Carrot stealing is an almost-olympic sport that should not be lumped in with low-life thievery such as we have been discussing here.
I miss those days. :-X
I like watermelons better than carrots. I would hate to get between Elmer Fudd and Bugs Bunny too.
I don't like to get going on a thread like this..I don't take to stealing,maybe I have not been to other places,but stealing is stealing.If some lazy no good account for a human being would get off their lazy no good account ... and earn a dollar instead of trying to steal a dollar from someone that has worked for it,I would not have to protect or feel that I have to own a gun to protect what I have worked for.I don't buy "he has a family to feed"line either.Work for what you have,I have to and I always will.I would not lower myself to steal.There is always a better way.
i dont believe you ever reached the point you and your family were starving and you had no money to feed them before you condem anyone put yourself in their place first ,dont judge least you be judged ;) ;) ::)
On that note , If you are called to be on a jury ,do it . If you get a case where there is a theft make sure you are thinking attemted murderall the way to the last deliberation. OK think about it . this guy stole part of your life . Part that you took to work so you could buy the tools . The part where you spent a better part of the day trying to find your tools ,all the cussing and agravation . the part where you have to work without the tools to replace the tools and then the part where you could have gotten finished with the job but now you are behind. If he had a family to feed he could have asked you for help,or if you could use his help. or he could have stoped at Ms Polosy"s house for a redistibution of wealth.
I have mixed feelings about this subject. In the first place, I seriously doubt if the fine, upstanding citizens that stole Ironmower's tools had any notion of feeding anything other than a drug habit. Or maybe it is that they figure they can steal more than they can earn. Whatever the case, there is no excuse for stealing in this Country! >:(
Now, concerning Ironwood's scenario: It has been my experience that people who could reasonably justify thievery as a last resort will not steal. Most any of them will pluck a weed beside the road and eat that before they will steal another man's belongings. They will beg, if necessary, or pick through the garbage to find something for their children, but many would let their children starve before they would take something that doesn't belong to them. Perhaps, in some societies, it is this noble trait that has kept them poor, as those who don't mind taking from others don't seem to mind seeing people starve around them. There are of course, those who are just too lazy to get out and scratch for a living, and those are the ones who will trample each other to get a handout.
In any case, the people who stole Ironmower's tools were not desparate, but rather were greedy. If they were simply hungry, they would have only stolen enough to get something to eat. They were out to get whatever they could, and should be strung up by their privates, in my ALWAYS humble opinion! >:(
I'm startin to think you're not a liberal DanG.
Had a similar discussion with a fella yesterday at a ham radio show. The topic started by talking about security systems. Seems he has one but the police will not respond if the alarm monitoring company can not verify the homeowner is not there. ??? We have one here at the farm with a call service that notifies us and the police if the alarm goes off. If we're not home and get the call on out cell, we call the police and tell them to shoot first then ask questions. ;D Same rule applies if we are home in bed and the alarm goes off. "Stop or I'll shoot........AGAIN !"
If they are capable of stealing from someone else then they are capable of doing enough work to feed themselves. Stealing is stealing,and a thief is a thief. If a person will still one thing from you he will steal anything from you.
Quote from: Tim L on February 08, 2009, 10:43:45 PM
I'm startin to think you're not a liberal DanG.
LOL LOL LOL
Quote from: Warbird on February 08, 2009, 11:01:59 PM
LOL LOL LOL
What da heck are you laughing at? I'm every bit as liberal as you! ;D
I wonder how many times security alarms go off accidently and the police show up and nothing is amiss. The security company gets a monthly fee for calling the police if the alarm goes off, but we the citizens have to pay for the dry run. I think only 1 in 10 alarms is an actual emergency. Towns and counties should be reimbursed for dry runs. The security companies are the ones doing the legalized stealing.
There is also a big difference between being hungry for a day or 2 and starving. Please show me a starving person in this country that is from them not being able to get food.
Stealing is stealing no matter how you look at it ... You steal from me and I catch or find out who you are , its gonna hurt . No way is it forgivable , if you are that hungry , knock on my door I will be glad to share some food , don't , don't open my door and take . >:(
I really can't see how one can even begin to excuse theft .... I truly cannot see how one can do it . :-\
a few years ago a local man that worked by the day for local farmers that could not read or rite killed a deer out of season to feed his family the local revenue collection people i wont diginify the people by using their rite title anyway entered his home while the family were eating took the deer and arrested him do you all agree this was the correct thing to do :( :( ::) ::) 8)
i forgot to add i also keep a 357 by my bed also in case of rats :) 8)
Polly
That aint stealling in my book . It aint playing by the written rules , but then again there are way to many dam rules and in a case like this .... they should turn a blind eye and go after the ones that kill and sell . >:(
Killing deer out of season is not stealing, its surviving, as long as u dont leave it rot or sell it , there isnt anythign wrong with it.
Quote from: gunman63 on February 09, 2009, 06:37:56 PM
Killing deer out of season is not stealing, its surviving, as long as u dont leave it rot or sell it , there isnt anythign wrong with it.
I strongly disagree. Poaching is stealing in my book.
Norm
kill all the deer you want. one jumped over my car hood last summer and broke my windshield. he ran off and did not offer to pay for my windshield so i do not have any sympathy for bambi.
I really am a liberal. I know some people in this country who go to bed hungry. Many of them are old and alone, their families moved away or already gone to their reward. A goodly number of them were farmers or their wives, who never paid into social security and live on SSI about $380.00 per month. I also know that these folks would NEVER take anything they did not own!! I also have no use for a thief
There are so many dear around here the COs would find something better to do than take food off of a families table. If he had talked to the COs they would have fixed him up with a farmer who has depredation permits and he would probably have too many dear.
thats why its called poaching,,,,, not called stealing, cause its not stealing
Ask me for help and it will be there. Steal from me and you won't like the outcome......Cheyenne
My opinion is that the state is stealing from me and all the other taxpaying property owners . simply letting the deer population get out of hand and not opening deer season year around . Those deer took out 20 apple trees that I planted cared for one summer . they ate every one right down to the roots. Come poach on my property any time you want ,just ask permision. I don't like tresspassers .
Deer are like rats with hooves here. They cause more damage than any other animal through accidents and damage to crops. The state has made a fortune off of regulating them while the farmers and insurers pay the costs of raising. Poaching is when you make money off of it, it's not when you feed your family instead of taking food stamps.
The aresting officer should of repremanded at the most , then offer to bring him some that he takes from real thieves " poachers " ................. >:(
I had a bout with a tight hatted officer a long time ago I helped him loosen the hat some and arranged for a visite with the tooth fairy. In my book this officer also would need a visite . Oh I paid dearly :-\ was it worth it ............................. yep ;D Knowing what I know today would I do it again in the same time/circomstances ......... with out batting an eye .
i own some land that is only fit to raise feed on for cattle you cannot even do that around here for feeding the deer for ky fish and game dept ky revenue dept makes the money entirly at the farmers expense why should this not be called stealing in essence they are taking money away from you ;) 8)
I have been thinking about getting nuisance permit for deer on my place. dang things keep killing my trees too...
There are a LOT of thieves running around esp, at construction sites. we were hit once with tools taken out of the work van, MY tools were in there locked in my large tool box which I had chained to the van wall. the smaller box with most of the portable shop tools grinders drills ect was taken and a few larger tools. i guess they could not break the lock on my box and or the chain on the wall. this was inside a LOCKED & GATED hotel of course the hotel said they were not responsible, we could not even get the cops to respond... (said it was private property!) :(
not sure if anyone gets NRA book/mag. There is a new bill g coming out regarding peoples rights to protect themselves as it is now so popular for the police to say they are not there to respond to any individual need or property owners request, the cops only seem to think they are only to protect and serve the public at LARGE not in any private or non-public location!?>!? Seems some senator wants to make it legal to carry guns at any time and any place due to the police failure to protect every person no matter where they are at...
FINALLY common since in politics :D
Mark
Quote"...the hotel said they were not responsible, we could not even get the cops to respond... (said it was private property!)"
Wha-a-a-a-at!?
Your police don't protect private property? It sounds to me that you folks are paying for a service that you will never get. I think I would take this remark to my Mayor.
this happened in the Detroit burbs~'94 or '95. probably should have known better but there was razor wire on top of the fence, should have been safe ya think.. The whole situation was BS in my opinion. We had built a large oven and 2nd company built a large industrial washer, we were installing them in Zenith TV plant that had JUST been bought by the S. Korean company. the Union was walking out several times in the 3 days we were there and we went to that particular hotel on the workers said was a good one. I wouldn't put it past that THEY were ones who ripped us off. (broke the Vent window in the Van) the job was totally screwed up after waiting 3+ days with only able to get about 20 min of REAL work done there was again a walk out. we HAD to pack up and leave when they did. told management that if it happened again we were also walking out and billing for finished job. we did & were paid even though the unit was not installed, later I found out why we were paid in full.
we as non-union workers from a non-union shop were treated like dirt, I was personally called several names scab being only repeatable one. I'm actually glad they decided to close the plant a little later. These people basically put themselves out of a job, the s Korean company was planning on expanding and had bought all the NEW equipment... after the worker relation problems they simply closed it up and hauled out the new equipment... :)
The Cops not responding to theft on private property is not so rare according to the government, hence the mention of the right to protect ones self and ones neighbors BILL that some senator or governor is attempting to put into law. hope that one passes.:)
I would post a link but might get in trouble. as informing where to read the bills and regarding stuff the government is working on might offend somebody who does not want to know what the elected officials are doing in USA.
Mark
Just went down to my fish camp to check on wind damage. Some low, dirty, rotten, slimy, worthless, no account lowlife had releived me two sections of stainless flue. Crawled up on the roof and just pulled it out. Joke was on them, it is an 8" flue 6" ceiling support won't work on it. Going to the local second hand stores tomorrow and check around. Going to call the hardware stores and see if anybody has ordered a ceiling kit. After I go back and take the ceiling kit out, in case they come back after it.
Did I mention that I don't have much for a thief?
Wh-Conley reminds me of a time we were at an old Forest Service station no longer in use for a Trail ride. There was a potluck in the building afterward and the big old woodstove was there but no pipe. Somebody saw that and said"only reason that's still here is there wasn't 4 thieves around all at the same time". :D People steal anything.
I wonder how much theft in our country is related to a drug habit?
Speaking of prison overcrowding, I wonder how many people in prison are there because of drugs?
It seems to me that a significant portion of theft and prison overcrowding is due to our national drug problem. Solve the drug problem and you've made the other problems much more manageable.
I have some good friends (legal immigrants) who are from Mexico, and they have been telling me about how violence is increasing in their towns and villages due to drug lords that have sprung up and started terrorzing everybody in order to create new supply routes, etc. It embarrasses and shames me to realize that good people in our neighboring countries are suffering due to America's drug problem.
I'm not sure that we take the problem seriously enough - it certainly hasn't gone away or even been reduced during my life time. I also wonder if the majority of people are soft on drugs because probably over 50% of our population has used an illegal substance at one time in their life?
I can say from what I see around here that almost 100% of the type of thefts we've been discussing are related to drugs. Mostly due to speed or meth in our area, although Marijuana is huge it seems to cause less of this. Still some though, I'm sure. Solving the drug problem would no doubt stop a lot of stealing.
Quote from: ErikC on February 12, 2009, 12:31:01 PM
...........although Marijuana is huge it seems to cause less of this. ..............
Pretty safe bet that Marijuana is one of the stepping stones to heavier, more expensive drugs. Cigarettes would be the first step, then up from there. Not everyone moves up to the next step, but I've heard it, and believe it, that near zero people move directly to hard drugs, skipping the cigs and 'juana smokes.
scsmith42, lets face it drugs are a problem every where, US, Mexico, Europe, Asia. In my mind a lot of the blame goes on the justice system, if we did like a lot of other countries, and just kill the drug dealers, and distributors. Public hanging would make a lot of people reconsider their lifes ambitions.
Quote from: CLL on February 12, 2009, 03:04:33 PM
scsmith42, lets face it drugs are a problem every where, US, Mexico, Europe, Asia. In my mind a lot of the blame goes on the justice system, if we did like a lot of other countries, and just kill the drug dealers, and distributors. Public hanging would make a lot of people reconsider their lifes ambitions.
Yes, but.....
I really don't know the solution to the problem. We've stuck a lot more drug dealers in jail, yet the demand amongst users is still there. If we could figure out a way to eliminate the demand, then the dealer problem will solve itself because there wouldn't be any business for them.
It's pretty incredible when you think about the costs to society caused by drugs. All of the thefts, which in turn affect the insurance rates that everybody pays; all of the costs to incarcerate, arrest, and prosecute the offenders, the lost productivity due to workers that have accidents due to drug use or have poor performance.
We could probably reduce law enforcement costs by 50% (and related taxes) if there weren't a drug abuse problem. We could probably reduce our insurance costs by 30% or more if there weren't a drug abuse problem. When you add it all up, it's an incredible drain on our national productivity.
Probably the single greatest loss is the loss of individual potential. Society advances when individuals focus their intellect, creativity, efforts, etc on the solution to problems, production or improvement opportunities. How many drug users are holding themselves back from ultimately achieving their potential due to their slavery to a substance that - when abused - destroys rather than creates?
The drug problem is similar to the alcohol problem during prohibition. Like it or not the only solution will be legalization with regulation. Now that's not a good solution but I can tell you that the costs of doing so will be less than how we deal with it now.
i think like cheyanne does on this.
when my dad was wee lad, my granpa had settled on his land and they lived and worked there. granpa said there was a band of gypsys moved in down the end of the road...... he propmtly started losing chickens every nite. after about 6 chickens later he walked down to thier house and told the man their he could see he needed to feed his family, and he was more than happy to hire him to help him work his land or he would also be more than happy to bury him down here on his land...either way. no more chickens gone and he also had a good hard worker for a bit.
grandpa always did have a way with words.
I can't say with any confidence what percentage of the prison population is there due to drugs. However, I can state with confidence that around here, the majority that are busted for drug offenses never see prison. It seems to be a giant corrupt money racket. They bust these young punks, mostly meth heads around here. Like has been stated, starts with the maryj, so they usually have that on them too...you can read the newspaper and the arrest section, and see the same names week after week being arrested for the same offenses. Typically possession of a schedule 2 controlled substance in amounts sufficient for distribution, maintaining residence, mobile meth lab, etc etc. They arrest them, fine them, and they post bail...put on probation, never serve any time. They have to pay their probation officer every week though. They also have to leave work (the ones who can get a job with their criminal record) as many as 3 times per week to attend probation meeting and discussion groups, lol. So, as if they could have a job in the first place, they can't keep one due to having to leave early all the time. Now as long as they will pay the good ole boys, no prison time...quit paying, you serve time...so, you are left with druggies, receiving no rehab, and can't hold a job, yet they can stay out of jail if they can pay. Naturally, you get a bunch of worthless theives stealing to support a drug habit and pay off the police so they can stay on the streets. Bet its not much different anywhere else either. Grab the local paper, see how long it takes to memorize the names in the arrest section.
yes thats the way it works, isnt right but thats the way it goes.
i dont have the answer to the drug problem, but how can anyone say legalize drugs? look at the harm they do to the people before they get caught. would meth do less harm if it was legal?
Even when they get busted for stealing there is a quick turnaround and back to the street. When no one is there to say-"That guy stole my stuff, why's he out?" They spend the night and go home. I guess I know what the problem is but sure don't have the answer. I doubt legalizing these substances will help though.
This is one area where they have it right in the middle east, caught stealing lop of the offending hand, get caught selling with drugs, lop of the offending head get caught with drugs go to jail very hard labor very long time, and your family has to support you while you are in there with food and money or else you starve... see some criminal laws are pretty good, and to think there are a lot less lawyers running around chasing ambulances as well ;)
I won't mention what happens if you rape a woman over there...
;D
mark
the way it should be >:( if i do something to harm you , lay it to me , but if i do something that harms myself :( ;) leave me alone , sooner i kill myself the cheaper it will be on honest people paying taxes ;) :)
Hey fellas, The only time I get to talk to ya is on the weekends, early in the morning. We just got our power back on at 1:15AM this morning, after 3 days.I didn't believe my eyes Friday morning, when I went too start my log splitter. NOT AGAIN!!! They cut the chain loaded aload of wood & my splitter and gone. They sure are gettin brazin' around here. I know I shouldn't do this but it will be VERY Satisfing, I put some bait out('04 john deere riding mower) Electrified!! I hope these dope heads get a buzzzz outa that. Can't keep a good man down!!!! How about we give them all drugs & guns put them on an island and have at it.
You are having a hard time,thanks to a few people. >:( They sure do need a lesson on manners.
A 10 gauge would work better 8) 8) 8) Cheyenne
Now cheyenne,that's bad manners. ;D But I did not say which manners they needed either.
Ironmower, I doubt you will be as fortunate as me. I caught my thief and recovered a fair protion of my tools after forcing him to go around and get the ones back he could.
I told my thief story here a while back I believe. The short rehash. I did my own dick tracy stuff when it dawned on me the sheriff dept weren't gonna do squat. After a full time 3 day investigation by me, visiting druggies and "bending" some rules, I got a name, verified that name sevral ways, and cornered him on 10th street in town holed up with the female bail bond lady. I use "lady" very generously.
I knew he was guilty because the truck everyone described to me as his, was there, and it still had some of the few remaining tools of mine that he hedn't pawned or traded to his dealers. I invited myself into the house. Now fast forward a couple years.
He did time (not for my significant loss though, now known to total over $12,000 in tools) and ended up in a halfway house in Ft. Worth. I heard a few months back how he'd got married and stayed clean and finally straightened himself out. I was glad to hear it.
When I went to pick up a saw a few weeks ago at my chainsaw shop, there he was behind the counter, looking up a part number on the micro fiche (yes they still use one there) chewing the inside of his cheek. Speeding his lousy a$$ off. Don't tell me I could be wrong. I wasn't.
I said "You don't even recognize me do you?" He said "No who are you?" I said "One of your victims. Over 12 grand worth." He says in as a sarcastic tone as he could muster "Sorry to hear it. I paid a lot of restitution and did my time. I can't do anything more." I said "You could offer to pay ME some restitution." He says "I don't have to pay anything unless the court said."
I was about to blow a gasket. I had to leave. When I went back the next day I asked Raymond why he was letting him work there. He is Raymonds nephew but Raymond said he'd never let him step foot on his property again because he'd stolen from him so much. He said "I don't know why I did it. But he's gone for a while now. He got a DUI last night which is an automatic violation of his probation. He's going down for a while now."
Meth is the most destructive drug I've ever seen. I have seen guys here, regular working stiffs who othersie were never druggies, they get on it, eventually go to jail, go to "rehab" and do well for a few months or even a year and they get on it again. I don't know if there is any reforming them once they get on the meth.
Sorry for your loss Ironmower. It hurts, and it never goeas away. I still get mad when i go to look for a tool I realize is gone, and I just add it to the list.
Some thoughts about legalizing drugs.
I know that my comments may be misconstrued, but considering the quality of folks on the FF they may not be...
I am against drug abuse. But in my short life I have not seen what I consider to be any significant progress on resolving the problem. When I was a kid drug abuse was rampant, and from what I hear it's still a problem. So if we're not making progress on the problem, isn't it time to try something different?
Most all will agree on the "cons" re legalizing drugs. For starters, why on earth should we legalize something that's just plain wrong? What kind of message does this send to kids, etc?
The "Pro's" re legalizing drugs, as I see it, are as follows:
- It will put the "drug lords" out of business, as they will no longer have a market for their products. This will reduce a lot of crime and terrorism both in the US as well as in our neighboring countries.
It will put the "drug dealers" out of business, for the same reason. By putting the drug dealers out of business, you remove a lot of the "marketing" to our young folks from people that whose "jobs" depend upon soliciting new customers.
It will eliminate a lot of the "meth labs", for the reasons above.
It will provide a means to identify and track the users, and to incent them to get treatment.
It can be managed similar to the way that alcohol is managed. The benefit here is that alcohol abuse seems to be more widespread amongst users that aren't legal. How many folks do we know that drank a bunch before they turned 21, and then cut way back once that they were legal?
The only reason to legalize drugs, from my perspective, is as a practical matter in order to allow us to reduce crime and get things back under control. Similar to what happened during and after prohibition (advent and strengthening of organized crime and alcohol sales).
I don't think that we can imprison or "kill our way" out of the problem. A number of years ago mandatory sentencing laws were passed re drug dealing. From what I've read on this string, they are no longer in force in many parts of the country. I don't think that they worked back then, or we'd have solved the problem.
If not legalization, what will either solve or drastically reduce drug abuse, and the resulting thefts, violence, etc?
Scott, in a perfect world your solution might work. Of course in a perfect world we would A) not have drugs or B) drugs would not have negative side effects and we could all stay perfectly high.
Not being a perfect world, there are several reasons the US Gov will not legalize drugs, but the main reason IMHO is because they make way more money "fighting" it, than if they regulated the selling of it. JMO.
One of the best arguments for the drugs being illegal is the use of Opium in the 1800's. It destroyed many people and families and almost a country. The Chinese tried to stop it and the English kept pushing it. We got opium pits in the USA in the middle 1800's and opium closed up a lot of the society of California. Opium, Morphine and heroin, all derivatives of the same plant, have killed people, ruined lives of users, ruined lives of family and children, ruined anything with which they came into contact. People who are enticed, even socially, to partake are soon addicted and become a part of the problem. Illegalizing the drugs are the only way to protect the rest of society. We wrongly feel that there are only a few who fall prey to the drugs and they are criminals anyway. Addicts are first wooed by the social aspects and are quickly hooked. They could be murderers and thieves or Doctors and Lawyers. Drugs don't care and neither does the S.O.B. that sells them. More people can be convinced to try drugs than are ever gotten off of them and the user rolls continue to build. Even if the economics of the problem could be controlled by legalizing drugs the downfall they bring to the society would not. The black market would not be diminished just because of legalization. Drugs might be more affordable, but there would still be a market under the surface the same as there is a black market for cigarettes today.
Read up on some of the history of Opium. It wasn't just a casual drug used by Sherlock Holmes, it devastated entire generations.
Legalizing drugs would be the final nail in the coffin for this country after the bailout fiasco... :'(....Cheyenne
Amen....
I can understand the feelings and perspectives on this topic; as I stated earlier I am against drug abuse and even recreational drug use. My concern is how can we eliminate drug abuse for good.
If it were legalized, there would have to be a tremendous social stigma against it. At one point in time shame was a powerful motivator, and it still is today. Mothers Against Drunk Driving made a tremendous difference in our society, and the number of drunk driving fatalitites is significantly reduced today as opposed to just 20 years ago, even though alcohol is legal, but alcohol abuse is not.
What other solutions exist to the problem? It seems like everything that we've tried hasn't worked, and the toll not only in our own country but also now in our neighboring countries is getting worse.
And, if you want to talk about "economic stimulation", I wonder how much positive impact that the proceeds of drug abuse would have on the economy if they were spent on constructive things, as opposed to destructive things...
I had quite a bout with theives a few years ago , 5 or 6 times in a span of a few months , stole tools, chainsaws, cases of oil, the boy's dirt bike that he had worked for to pay his half ! Some of my tools (Mac tools exp!) showed up in local pawn shop, police called me to identify, asked him if he was going to search his residence for the rest of my stuff, said he had no grounds for warrent because I did not see him break into my shed. So I took it upon myself cure this problem, many sleepness nights, but I cured this in the end! I like Cheyenne's idea of the 10 gauge , maybe a bit harsh ,so I toned it down to 12 gauge loaded with #00 buckshot! no more troubles! I'll be darned if I'm going sit bye & let them steal every thing that I've worked for .
customdave
Quote from: scsmith42 on February 15, 2009, 09:30:20 AMAt one point in time shame was a powerful motivator, and it still is today.
That's the achille's heel in your plan. I don't see shame playing a very big role in most of society today. We see men and women kissing each other on prime time network tv. We see sports figure "role models" cheating the system with drugs to get an unfair advantage, and then swearing an oath on a Bible to tell the truth, then lying about it. We see politicians having affairs and lying and stealing and cheating and selling senate seats. We see presidents having sex outside of marriage in the oval office and then lying about it.
Where is the shame ??? Kids today are not motivated by shame. Legalizing drugs might cut down on crime, it might not. It would just shift the crime to a different entity. Govenrment. But the worst thing it would do is destroy what little good there is left in society. Legalising drugs will not make kids less prone to try them. Just the opposite. i cannot imagine living in a society in which meth is legal.
Quote from: TexasTimbers on February 15, 2009, 12:27:42 PM
Quote from: scsmith42 on February 15, 2009, 09:30:20 AMAt one point in time shame was a powerful motivator, and it still is today.
That's the achille's heel in your plan. I don't see shame playing a very big role in most of society today. We see men and women kissing each other on prime time network tv. We see sports figure "role models" cheating the system with drugs to get an unfair advantage, and then swearing an oath on a Bible to tell the truth, then lying about it. We see politicians having affairs and lying and stealing and cheating and selling senate seats. We see presidents having sex outside of marriage in the oval office and then lying about it.
Where is the shame ??? Kids today are not motivated by shame. Legalizing drugs might cut down on crime, it might not. It would just shift the crime to a different entity. Govenrment. But the worst thing it would do is destroy what little good there is left in society. Legalising drugs will not make kids less prone to try them. Just the opposite. i cannot imagine living in a society in which meth is legal.
ok - so the question remains - what can be done to solve the problem on a wide scale basis?
All of us can related to CustomDave's and Cheyenne's solution, but that's addressing the sympton, not the cause.
What would it take to eliminate, or drastically reduce the problem of drug abuse?
Watched the new show on Fox called the Dollhouse. Girls had a new personality embedded in their brain by a machine. It even induced asthma. Use this machine to cure drug addiction and program people to never abuse drugs.
There's a solution.
Sorry but I have to side with scsmith42 on this one. For my entire life time we have been fighting the "War on Drugs" and the only thing it has accomplished is to keep the price of drugs high. As long as there is such a high profit in selling it Pushers will do whatever it takes to hook new users.
Lets look at the bad things caused by our current programs.
The "War on Drugs" has been used to justify gun control and attacks on our freedoms.
Pushers protecting their turf with guns kill people every day, along with a lot of innocent people and kids.
A lot of the money that is made ends up supporting lobbing our government. Probably one of the biggest reasons we don't protect our borders.
People are robed and many times injured or killed by someone stealing money to pay for it. I have a screen in the bottom of my eye socket and stainless steel wire in my cheek bone from being mugged and robbed by druggies.
My son in-law is a prison guard and he thinks that about 70% of his charges are in there for drug violations And it cost enough to pay for lots of counseling.
Drugs are cheep to produce and wouldn't support buying guns, planes, boats, and the organization that distributes them without government price supports. Where else can you sell a product that costs $5 a pound for $100,000
I realize there would still be users but it would be them paying the price not the people who are robbed, mugged, or even shot by some one trying to get money to buy them.
The "War on Drugs" is just another in a long line of examples of government failure. Is the only other option to legalize it?
How about truly sealing our borders? That would pretty much solve at least two overwhelming problems; illegal immigration and massive drug imports. Soome drugs, and aliens would get through no matter what, but a proeprly sealed border, like virtually every other country on the planet has, would reduce both problems to a much more manageable degree.
And why are our borders not sealed? Because Americans continue to vote the same creeps into office over and over and over. Americans continue to get the same they always got, because they continue to think they way they have always thought.
Look at it this way, if the US had sealed borders, most americans wouldnt be here.
Quote from: TexasTimbers on February 15, 2009, 05:36:59 PM
but a proeprly sealed border, like virtually every other country on the planet has,
We only share borders with two other Countries, Canada and Mexico, and their borders aren't sealed any better than ours. ;) :D
The USSR sealed their borders pretty tightly, and it don't seem to have worked out all that well for them. ::)
The notion that we can simple build a fence along the Mexican border and stop illegal immigration or drug running is a joke...a really bad joke. In my opinion, which is always humble as you know, the two problems have similar solutions. I don't go as far as Scott on the drug legalization, I do favor legalizing Marijuana. It is no worse than alcohol, and is no more of a gateway drug than alcohol. Most of all, we ain't gonna stop it, so we may as well legalize it and tax the hell out of it. We can't stop immigration either, no matter what we do, so I subscribe to G.W. Bush's idea of the Guest Worker Program. It would come a lot closer to gaining a measure of control than anything else I can think of.
just think how many people want to get into this country compared to how many want to leave,, its the best in the world
You all have made some good points. I believe there is a model for life. It is in the good book that there is an outline. ALL forms of abuse are a problem for society. Alcohol , drugs , tobacco , lust, greed , gluttony . Think what all these cost society. The body is a temple, control what enters it. Moderation is the key to most. The problem is most people don't know exactly how much it will take to be at more than the moderation level. Raising my children we have taught them it is best to avoid. Hard to do in todays society , even more so with peers doing it all. Problems were there in biblical times I don't see getting rid of them easily. :-\
At one time there was not anyone are more supportive of strong drug control laws than me. I now have to go along, at least part-way , with Scott and his reasonings. My Dad says," the bootleggers and the Baptist preachers kept west Texas dry for years." For the folks that may not understand ,that means that the people who made and sold illegal alcohol and the religious people stopped the selling of alcohol. The bootleggers didn't want to lose their market and the preachers were concerned about the damage the alcohol could do. Two different motivations, both looking for the same results( up to a certain point). Did our government's prohibition 100 years ago stop alcohol use in the USA? No, but it did give us the Mafia (and the Kennedy's, but that's a different story ;D ). Not mentioned so far is the corruption in this country that the money in illegal drugs have caused. Up in Tom's and getoverit's country two sheriffs, in adjacent county's went to jail for aiding some of the drug dealers in their respective counties. Apparently, neither one knew what the other was doing, they did it on their own. Will anybody say that they think our court system has not been corrupted by this money? How about our sterling politicians? They can't be bought, can they? (I say no, they can't be bought, but they sure as heck can be rented!) If I was a major player in the drug business, I'd make sure the laws were made to keep all drugs illegal. I wouldn't want anyone screwing with my profit margin.
Now I'm going to make a statement that few will believe. I grew up in the 60's and 70's, and went to the U. of Florida, and ...here it comes...have never used drugs! :o I hate them, and hate that they are around my children and my community. I have seen where young people were introduced to pot , cheaply, and then moved to harder stuff. The comment I got was, we wanted to try some weed so we got to know the dealers. They talked us into trying the harder stuff. We had started hanging out with the dealers,and all of the drugs they had were illegal, so what's the difference, so why not?
As I get older I see the value of some of society's and religions' taboos and methods that have been discounted by our recent society. The destruction of the concept of shame is foremost in my mind. It used to be shameful to dress like a streetwalker, and act like one, to be known as a drunk or druggy, and to accept welfare or handouts from the government or others w/out working for it. Now, there is no shame for much of society. This has benefitted us how?
Anyway, I think controlled legalization of the softer, less addictive drugs, taxed just enough to provide funds for control and rehab, but not enough to mimic the smuggling of cigarette's would be beneficial. Turn law-enforcement towards the serious stuff and drive the profit motives out. As the world stands now, we will soon have a complete narco-state south of our border, and TT doesn't have enough guns to hold back the problems that will soon thereafter spill over the border. It maybe too late to stop, but what we have tried so far hasn't worked too well.
Mark
Let's try it in California first. Sorry, don't mean to make you Californians mad. Maybe the southern 1/2 of the state.
I don't understand why it is so difficult for some people to grasp the national sovereignty and immigration issue. Every country has the right to determine who should be allowed into its borders. Saying "if the borders were sealed you wouldn't be here" cannot be a serious response.
Most of our forefathers came in legally and were accepted by playing by the rules, or in the case of my great4 earned it by fighting the British. Whatever the route, a nation has the sovereign right to administer the rules of it's path to citizenship at its will. That's the sovereignty part of the equation.
As to our actual ability to protect our borders effectively, if you think we would not be able to accomplish this given the political will, you need to read up on the issue further. "Erecting a fence" sounds draconian, and while it might be used in some areas it would only be a small part of the solution. American has a whole does not have the backbone to employ effective border protection, which is one of the major reasons we have such an unchecked influx of illegal drugs.
I think we have to start with the justice system, it has to start handing out harsh sentences, drug dealers the big ones ,caught twice-hang em! The jails need to be toughend up as well, the jails nowadays are a holday for these guys, I worked with a guy one time when I was younger it was a seasonal job, I asked him if he had a job lined up after we finished this one. He said nope I'll probably pull a B&E and go to jail for the winter, its warm & they feed you. This is just my opinion!
customdave
Maybe I can help you understand a little better, TT. The fact that we don't totally agree with you doesn't mean we don't have a grasp of the problem. It merely means that we have different ideas about the solution.
There is more than one way to skin a cat, but you first have to catch the cat, whatever method you use. From what I hear, we have over 11 million cats to catch, so far. It is a little bit late to worry about sealing the border. I just happen to think it is more productive to put a little food out to concentrate the cats in a more managable environment.
Quote from: Cedarman on February 16, 2009, 08:06:57 AM
Let's try it in California first. Sorry, don't mean to make you Californians mad. Maybe the southern 1/2 of the state.
Marijuana is already legalized here, the whole state. For medical use only of course. It conflicts with Federal Law, but little is done to stop it other than huge Cartel farms. Now we are overrun with people buying land and growing weed to make money and not work for a living. I don't see that it's solved anything yet. I see a few problems it has created though. And DanG is right, compared to other drugs it is fairly harmless, but the longer people use it the more it affects their productivity. It takes a while but it will drag people completely down. Meth will drag them down in a few months instead of years.
war on drugs is a misnomer imho. if it were in fact a war there would be bloodshed and if that happened on a regular basis it would create a deterrent for others.
Since we failed before we must go on failing. I get it now. Thank you for explaining that to me Dan. ::)
Kev, you keep talking about failure, but I haven't seen anything from you about what your idea of success is. You speak about sealing the borders, but offer nothing in the way of a method of doing that. Perhaps if you were to suggest some solutions instead of just telling us we're stoopid for not listening to you, we might find some common ground.
Quote from: DanG on February 16, 2009, 02:17:04 PM
Kev, you keep talking about failure, but I haven't seen anything from you about what your idea of success is.
That's called selective reading on your part dan. I've stated my beliefs and ideas many times and you know it. I'm not going to recap for you, as if you are truly interested anyway.
Quote from: DanG on February 16, 2009, 02:17:04 PM... . . . instead of just telling us we're stoopid for not listening to you . . . .
Perhaps you should quit hitting the sauce so early and so frequently because you can't be sober making a statement like that. I've never told anyone they are stupid, nor insinuated it. Anyone can twist someone's intent but that about as far as one can stretch it.
February must be your month to insult as many people as possible. But you'll have to try harder with me. A lot harder. 8) 8) 8)
I've spoken my peace and counted to 3. I'm not going to participate in ruining this man's thread any more than I have. You're all on your own now dan.
Quote from: ErikC on February 16, 2009, 11:30:38 AM
Quote from: Cedarman on February 16, 2009, 08:06:57 AM
Let's try it in California first. Sorry, don't mean to make you Californians mad. Maybe the southern 1/2 of the state.
Marijuana is already legalized here, the whole state. For medical use only of course. It conflicts with Federal Law, but little is done to stop it other than huge Cartel farms. Now we are overrun with people buying land and growing weed to make money and not work for a living. I don't see that it's solved anything yet. I see a few problems it has created though. And DanG is right, compared to other drugs it is fairly harmless, but the longer people use it the more it affects their productivity. It takes a while but it will drag people completely down. Meth will drag them down in a few months instead of years.
CNBC just had a good special on Medicino co in Ca and the weed trade there. If not for weed growing the county would be bankrupt.
You mean there is a way to farm and make money?
Not really! When a sioux tribe grew hemp on a reservation to supply rope & garment mfgs the feds plowed in the fields & put them in jail. Go figure ::)...Cheyenne
DanG, since I'm a war monger(or so I've been told) I think I could slow down the flow of illegal immigrants to a trickle. I need about 5000 other war mongers and keep the civil liberties and other do gooders away from me. Once word got around, cross the border and die, it would slow.
I realize that could never happen, but I also realize that its crap that people run across the border have kids and their US citizens, thats entirely wrong! It's also wrong for us to have to provide spanish speaking teachers in schools, learn to speak english or go home, when we go to other nations they don't provide someone thats speaks english for us. When our ancestors arrived at Ellis Island they had to learn english to become citizens, I think that should still be a qualification. There is nothing wrong with being proud of your heritage, just be PROUD of being an AMERICAN.
Quote from: Raider Bill on February 16, 2009, 05:08:09 PM
Quote from: ErikC on February 16, 2009, 11:30:38 AM
Quote from: Cedarman on February 16, 2009, 08:06:57 AM
Let's try it in California first. Sorry, don't mean to make you Californians mad. Maybe the southern 1/2 of the state.
Marijuana is already legalized here, the whole state. For medical use only of course. It conflicts with Federal Law, but little is done to stop it other than huge Cartel farms. Now we are overrun with people buying land and growing weed to make money and not work for a living. I don't see that it's solved anything yet. I see a few problems it has created though. And DanG is right, compared to other drugs it is fairly harmless, but the longer people use it the more it affects their productivity. It takes a while but it will drag people completely down. Meth will drag them down in a few months instead of years.
CNBC just had a good special on Medicino co in Ca and the weed trade there. If not for weed growing the county would be bankrupt.
Trinity, humboldt, and mendicino counties are the center of the universe for this stuff. I read that article too, it was pretty accurate.
you all know uncle sam ant going to do nothing about drugs but blow ::) to mutch money envolved :D :D 8)
Quote from: Polly on February 16, 2009, 10:49:08 PM
you all know uncle SAM ant going to do nothing about drugs but blow ::) to mutch money envolved :D :D 8)
And there you have it! 60% of drug interdiction money goes to weed. 40% to the hard stuff.
Look how much the DEA, local and state PD's will lose if legalization of pot went through. Jails would lose population thus saving taxpayers money but taking it away from those that prosper.
I say take all that savings and go after the hard stuff and illegals with a vengance.
Quote from: CLL on February 16, 2009, 08:59:56 PM
DanG, since I'm a war monger(or so I've been told) I think I could slow down the flow of illegal immigrants to a trickle. I need about 5000 other war mongers and keep the civil liberties and other do gooders away from me. Once word got around, cross the border and die, it would slow.
I realize that could never happen, but I also realize that its crap that people run across the border have kids and their US citizens, thats entirely wrong! It's also wrong for us to have to provide spanish speaking teachers in schools, learn to speak english or go home, when we go to other nations they don't provide someone thats speaks english for us. When our ancestors arrived at Ellis Island they had to learn english to become citizens, I think that should still be a qualification. There is nothing wrong with being proud of your heritage, just be PROUD of being an AMERICAN.
Sign me up
looks like you only have 4998 to go. me too. I thought about changing my name to grand torino ;)
I watched gran torino the other day, clint is getting old!
In the old days he would have head shot all 8 bad guys with his 6 gun without even reloading.
i wnow the good lord loves me aside from that does anyone know anything encouring going on right now with ecomy :( ::) ::)
Fishing is at an all time high here. Every where I turn, someone has a hook wet in any mudhole they can find. ;)
friends,
I spent nearly 20 years in federal law enforcement. I believe we will never stop drugs at the border. WE need to stop OR CONTROL the market. Legalise and tax DRUGS spend the proceeds to reeducate the druggies Nothing wrong with secure borders, but extraordinary profit potential and nearly unlimited funds will turn that fence into a sieve
why not annex mexico, tear down the so called fence ,give them mexicans a ss card and let them pay taxes like the rest of us tax starved people it would not take long till they would revolt and start going to south america and our problems supposedly be solved ::) ::) :D
Quote from: old joe on February 18, 2009, 06:12:44 PM
friends,
I spent nearly 20 years in federal law enforcement. I believe we will never stop drugs at the border. WE need to stop OR CONTROL the market. Legalise and tax DRUGS spend the proceeds to reeducate the druggies Nothing wrong with secure borders, but extraordinary profit potential and nearly unlimited funds will turn that fence into a sieve
Joe, you know better than me and any other armchair general you guys never had the tools, manpower, funds, nor technology you needed to compete against those guys. They stay a step ahead because the "war" has NEVER been a priority in reality, only in political speak. ma
A river-length fence is not the solution. A fence should not be used as a barricade. It should be used as a funnel. Harsh, very non PC force should be used against the invaders that would serve as a deterrence that even the most motivated criminals would avoid. Concrete barricades used to funnel them to choke points would negate the need for sentry's sparsely strewn along the entire length of the river.
We are dreaming correct? You are dreaming of drugs being distributed like candy and I am dreaming of a country which actually protects itself as if it wants its culture and way of life (liberty) to survive. But of course we are giviing Miranda rights to enemies of war who have sworn death to us, so do I expect this government to actually try to be effective? No. But a man can dream.