Conceptualizing my pedestal stand/table

[SwampDonkey]

Here is an idea I have for the joinery of my table I'm going to build this winter. Remember this is still evolving.






Might beef it up a bit on the legs and joints like this.






wood I'm considering in the project:

pedestal column : turned black cherry

legs: yellow birch

square table top: white ash (square centre) with walnut (triangle) perimeter , bread board white ash.



square table top side trim with hanging drawer: butternut

Still cogitating.  ;D

[Larry]

Not for sure what a halfing joint is...a top view might further my education.

I like walnut and ash together...always seems to bring the complements.  Watch the grain direction on your top...end grain against edge grain is bad.  I would really consider using home made veneer and possibly book matching the walnut.  It might also be interesting to do something with the ash.

In any case it will be interesting watching you build it.  I look forward to seeing the pictures.

[SwampDonkey]

Won't be any end grain touching on the table top, shown in last post. Board edges are the faint dashed lines in previous post. The halving (helps to be able to spell  : )joint on the underside of the table top served two functions. 1) to secure and strengthen the biscuit jointed boards, 2) to mount and re-enforce the side pieces such as the side matching the drawer face.

Not concerned about the feet as the grain will be parallel to the floor surface. Looking at an old piece tells me the worst failure is between two species of wood that have a wide margin of shrinkage such as an open grain wood (ring porous) with a closed grain (diffuse porous) wood. Not much shrinkage between ends, if any. Just edge to edge. ;)

[SwampDonkey]

I don't have the luxury, unfortunately, to gather book matched walnut up here in the north country. Be lucky to get the walnut.  :D :D I might use birdseye on the sides under the table top.  ;)

[Max sawdust]

SD,
I call that a lap joint ;)
Can you optain a thick piece of walnut and just saw it in half to make a Bookmatch?
Looks like an nice winter project, can not wait to see it done.
max

[WDH]

While I have never built a table like that, especially the base, have you thought about attaching the legs as sliding dovetail pins with the tail slots on the post?  I saw Norm on the New Yankee Workshop do one like that. 

Your plan for the joinery for the legs and post is still not clear to me from your drawing.  Are you planing to make the legs as one unit, mortise the post, and slide the mortised post over the leg unit?

[Don K]

You read my mind Danny. I was thinking the same thing when I saw donkey's drawing. I like Norm. He knows his stuff.

[SwampDonkey]

I don't know how well that fits on a turned column though guys. Be gaps on the edges and a lot of swing from side to side. Would work perfect if the column was square. You probably need a beefy dovetail. Half inch?



I've seen it done like this on our big red pine table, the wood is 2" stock.

[SwampDonkey]

Your plan for the joinery for the legs and post is still not clear to me from your drawing.  Are you planing to make the legs as one unit, mortise the post, and slide the mortised post over the leg unit?

Along that line yes, but a little more complicated. ;)

[Norm]

You read my mind Danny. I was thinking the same thing when I saw donkey's drawing. I like Norm. He knows his stuff.

;D ;D ;D

Sorry just couldn't help myself. :D

[pigman]

Norm sure does  know his stuff and Patty knows a lot too. ;)

SwampDonk, you could leave the bottom  of the post square. That would make it easier to attach the feet.
Here is a table I did earier this year with the bottom of the post left square.  On this table the post is 5", but I have done post the same way on smaller tables.



Bob

[SwampDonkey]

Pigman,

That's a great idea to. Nice table. I have some 6" x 6" cherry I hope to use. Did you dovetail? or tenon the feet? I tend to want to tenon mine, a beefier joint since hardwood is heavy. What did you use under the table surface? A piece of bent veneer? How tall was the table? 30"?

[WDH]

Hey Norm, if the shoe fits, wear it ;D.

Very fine table, Pigman!  That finish is smiling .  Excellent methodology to keep the post square at the feet attachment points.  Now, I need to make one too :.

[Burlkraft]

Nice table Bob..... ;D ;D ;D

[Norm]

Beautiful table Bob.

[pigman]

SD, On this table I think I tenoned the feet. On some tables with pedestals I dovetail. I put a metal plate on the bottom of the post for support.  The skirt is bent lamination. When I started the table the client just wanted a 4' round pedestal table simliar to a picture he showed me. When I was half done with the table the design changed to an extention table with a 20" leaf. :  I was glad he changed his mind because I coundn't get the full circle skirt to work.  The half circle was a lot easier. I sawed the top in half and  bought wooden slides from Rocker.  The table is 30 " tall. The client was going to use the table as a card table until the boss found out about it and wanted the table for a dinning table, hence the design change. ;)

Bob

[SwampDonkey]

I sawed the top in half

  I hope your client made a generous donation to the Heart and Stroke Foundation. ;D

[Don K]

Norm, when I typed that I knew you were going to jump all over it. :D :D :D ;D

Honestly though, you and Patty do some beautiful work.

Don

[WDH]

Bob, what kind of wood is that table?

[pigman]

It is black cherry with some cherry stain on it. I do not like to stain cherry, but the customer pays the bill. ;D  They wanted it to match some cherry cabinets they were installing in their high end house. I have a picture of the rather large house, but being they are verry private, I will not show their house to the world. ;)

Bob

[Dodgy Loner]

You can use sliding dovetails on a round column also, you just have to flatten the spot where the leg attaches.  Easy enough to do with a block plane.  The favored method would depend on how many legs you're using.  With four legs, it would be easier to leave a square section at the bottom, but on the many 3-legged tables with a turned central column, the method I described is more common.

[SwampDonkey]

We only want the table, not the house mortgage. ;D

[SwampDonkey]

Where there is a will there is a way Dodgy.  ;D

[Dodgy Loner]

We only want the table, not the house mortgage. ;D

??? I'm missing sumthin, I think.

[beenthere]

Not to worry, DL.   Furby will figure it out... :D :D :D

[SwampDonkey]

Just a joke Dodgy concerning Bob's previous post about his table and his shy clients.

I'd take the table, before the house mortgage on that luxury home. ;)

Sorry, I can't explain it any better.  ;D

[WDH]

SD, I say go for six legs .  That will be a real challenge :D.

[Dodgy Loner]

Gotcha, SD.  You're making more sense now ;)

[metalspinner]

SD,
On a table the size of  pigman's MT is definately the way to go.  A small end table can get away with sliding dovetails.  Another method to get a good fit of the turned foot to dovetailed shoulder is to shape the shoulders of the tails to the circumferance of the post.  Dogey Loner's method is certainly easier, though.

Pigman,
That is a beautiful table.  I don't like to stain wood, either.  Especially to match production cabinets. :  Why do people think all there wood stuff needs to be the same color?  Can't we enjoy the natural beauty of wood?  If not, why not just paint it white? :-\

[SwampDonkey]

SD, I say go for six legs .  That will be a real challenge :D.

Another method to get a good fit of the turned foot to dovetailed shoulder is to shape the shoulders of the tails to the circumference of the post. 

You guys expect too much of me.  :-\

[SwampDonkey]

One thing is for sure....


There isn't any way that you can bread board 4 sides with 45° cuts on the ends of the bread boards, one edge is gonna have to be square cornered at each end.  I suppose you could cheat and just dowel that edge on, making sure to cut the dowels on the end grain for strength. ;)

[Dave Shepard]

I have seen plans for a Shaker pedestal stand like this. It had three legs and used a sliding dovetail as was mentioned. It also used a metal plate on the bottom to resist splaying of the legs. I will try to find the plans, as I think I have a copy.


Dave

[SwampDonkey]

Bump!!!

Going to work on Monday. ;D

I figured out another method that the bottom of the column can be round. The top will be square that attaches to the table top. So simple.  ;D

[SwampDonkey]

Ok, let's see here.



Each side of the table is going to be 30", without the 1" edging around the table. So, let's see if I have this right. Half the width is 15", which is the apex of the diamond, in other words the walnut triangles on the corners are 15" along the edge of the table. So, I want to find how wide the base of the walnut triangle is that fits the edge of the ash diamond centre, in other words the width of the ash section in the middle.

C² = A² + B²

C = sqroot (A² + B²)

C = sqroot (15² + 15²)

C = sqroot (225 + 225)

C = sqroot(450)

C=  21.21 " or round to 21.25"

look right?  :

15" x 15" x 21.25" for each walnut triangle and 21.25" square for the ash section?

Ok, so how many 6" wide walnut for the triangle?

Need to find the height of the triangle.

B² = C² - A²
B = sqroot (C² - A²)
B = sqroot (15² - 10.625²)
B = sqroot (225 - 112.89062)
B = sqroot(112.10938)
B = 10.588 or 10-5/8" rounded

so two boards will do the trick

[SwampDonkey]

I turned the pedestal from a piece of NB cherry today. I don't know how stable it will remain, but it's been drying for about 10 years in the barn. ;D There is a gum pocket as you will see in the before pic. I couldn't quite get it all turned out, but I'll try filling it. There might end up being a couple fine checks that may not show up. It's not a perfect piece of wood, but I'm going to try to make it work.

Before




After



Here is what I came up with. The square end on the left will mount to the top and the rounded end on the bottom is where the legs go. Yup, there is about 4 inches on the bottom which will be cut off on the band saw. I have not sanded the thing yet. Kind of timid around a 6 x 6 cant spinning at me at 2000 rpm while I was shaving her down.  ;D

[TexasTimbers]

Looking good so far. ;D

I just read the whole thread, not every word but pretty much every post. I never did see hwere you finalized on how your leg joinery.

[SwampDonkey]

The new concept will unfold as we progress along. ;D ;)

One thing I realized about the trig math. I'm sure it's a rule or identity of some sort. If you have a triangle with 90 - 45 - 45 the height is half the base (the longest side opposite the 90).  ;)

[Tom]

I'm going to stand outside and look through the window while you do this.  It scares me.  The last time I saw a page with stuff like that on it, it was describing the end of WWII. :D

[TexasTimbers]

yeah i with you Tom that kinda math looks like something that was snuck out of Skunkworks Stealth Lab or maybe an Area 51 reverse engineering paper.

[Furby]

Would that mean you are a peeping Tom ???

[SwampDonkey]

Might not have the same wham effect, but she's heavy.  ;D

[Tom]

Have been all of my life.  ;D

[SwampDonkey]

Anyone need some staircase banisters turned while I'm the business?  ;D

[Furby]

Tom:  ;)

Sure SD, I could use enough for one set of stairs.

[WDH]

Looking good.  Keep it coming............

[SwampDonkey]

Well, just as I had expected the cant was not stable enough and is checking. The real reason is there is some pith that I couldn't quite plane out. I still think the turning is useful for something and have it placed over by the stove to dry and see what becomes of it. I sure ain't gonna burn it unless it flies all apart or something.  ;D

So now the plan is to laminate some 2 x 6 cherry. $7 a board foot later....and I have enough to turn 3 pedestals if I so wish. I'm thinking of another table project and it will be 6 sided with all kinds of wood pieces all mixed in the top. That's for a later date.  ;)

[SwampDonkey]

Nothing new to report, just letting the glue set between the first two thirds of the laminate. Will glue up the last piece tomorrow and let cure a few days before turning a new pedestal for the table.  I see some nice gum pockets in the cherry, mostly micro sized stuff. ;)

[WDH]

Will add to the character......

[SwampDonkey]

Well I'm by no means an expert at lamination and this is my first lamination project. Now we are talking 2 x 6" timbers here, about 46" long. Black cherry.



Here the first two layers have been glued and clamped 24 hrs and drying near my stove. I had 4 clamps on this work piece. One on each end and two in the middle.



Here I am applying the adhesive, Weldbond, to the laminates with a paint brush. Any excess glue that oozes out between the layers I remove with wet sponge and water. It's quite a mess so I keep cardboard on top of my workbench table saw.  ;)

Now I will let the whole thing cure for 3 days before venturing on.  ;D

[metalspinner]

That first one was good practice, SD. ;)

Waiting for that glue to dry is a killer, ain't it?

[SwampDonkey]

Slow but steady, have no deadlines to meet. ;)

[SwampDonkey]

Here's an update.  ;)



The new pedestal, still sanding a bit. Also need to cut the ends off after sanding.





Attaching the walnut to the ash with biscuits. Waiting for the glue to set up and keeping the work piece flat.  ;)





Roughing out the pedestal feet.

[metalspinner]

 8) 8)

It's starting to look like something now. :D

What are the screws for in the ends of the pedestal, if you don't mind me asking?

[WDH]

I like that work bench! 

Taking shape....and looking good 8).

[SwampDonkey]

What are the screws for in the ends of the pedestal, if you don't mind me asking?

Just a little security when spinning around there on the lathe.  Those sections were cut off.

[SwampDonkey]

Another picture with the final walnut corner attached. The pedestal is just sitting on top free style. Notice all the gum inclusions in it. The top is being weighed down by the cant for a few hours for the glue to cure.  ;)

After a while of curing I took the belt sander and gave her a good rub down. ;D

[WDH]

The gum inclusions give the pedestal character ;D.

[SwampDonkey]

Yeah, the perspective of the drawing is a bit out of whack.  :

Ok, I want to dovetail the edges of the table top with some yellow birch. I have a schematic of the situation. It's impossible to dovetail all four sides of the table without having to deal with the fourth corner. I mean one corner is going to have to be a pinned with a dowel or a groove slot because a dovetail is beveled and you can't slide the fat end of the dovetail into the narrow mouth on the outside edge of the table top. Hard to explain it.  :

I was thinking of using a L-Shaped corner to conceal the end grains and that short "L" will have a groove toward to table edge that when the final bread board is slid on it comes flush with the but end of the previous bread board. Get it? That connection to each bread board can be square on or beveled at 45° to each end. I was thinking of applying a slight round over or ogee on the bread board afterward (not pictured).

Sound like a good idea?

[SwampDonkey]

 




Ok so I took the router and went around the top edges for the dovetailed bread board. Not bad for a fellow with a shaky hand and a dull bit.  ;D :D  The ruler shows how plumb she be.  ;)

What I did to rout it was to place it on the table saw and clamp a 2 x6 on top and 1 x 6 on bottom and square the three pieces to the edge of the saw table. I then took my router and ran it along that edge at 90°. It was a solid work area and gave me room to run the router full length along the work piece. I used the router fence to run along the 2 x 6. This kept the router from tilting left or right.  ;)

[SwampDonkey]

The 'L' corner isn't going to work because I can't cut the dovetail and such with the machinery I have. The grain of the birch I have is quite straight, but still wanted to tear out because I have to go against the grain in the second pass on the opposite side. So one corner will have a little end grain. No biggy.  ;D

[SwampDonkey]

Ok, I cut the yellow birch breadboards and slid them on for a photo op.  ;D The lower left corner is where the final breadboard slides on and has to be a square to the first breadboard. So there is end grain there.  ;)

[SwampDonkey]

Glued up and curing overnight. Tomorrow I will do some more sanding, put the edging on and maybe work on the drawer.

[Don K]

A very interesting project. It will be beautiful when you are finished. I long for the day when I have my shop and am able to tackle some projects.

Don

[SwampDonkey]

Well I sanded down to 180 grit today, going to rub with some rotten stone and water.

I cut out the face pieces to attach to the underside and the drawer face. I need to sand down those pieces as well before attaching. The underside of the table top and inside faces won't get as much of a rub because they are out of view. Just have to rub the burs off. Burs you say? Just wash your piece with a damp sponge and see those fibres lift.  : Just think what it will do to the finish coating.  ;)



Here's a pic of the cherry facing/edging and drawer front.

[SwampDonkey]

I'm still working away guys. It just takes time cutting out S-curved braces, cutting pieces for the drawer and cutting slots in the drawer sides and making braces to hold the slides. I sure used up a lot of scrap wood, with all this farty tarty work.  Got to recut a couple little side pieces because my counter sink bit chewed them up and spit them out while trying to make pilot holes at 30°'s. :D Guess I just gotta make little braces instead of that approach. Ended up busting the counter sink bit into 5 pieces.  : All these little wooden pieces have to be sanded, and rubbed and sanded and........ anyone need a job sanding? :D :D

Then I've got to mortise the pedestal for the legs and upper braces........ I just do one little task a day.  Might be 2 hours or 4. ;)

I see all these little pieces of wood that keep accumulating and I just know there is some kind of game pieces that can be made from them. Checkers, dominoes, bingo chips, some kind of brain teaser puzzle. The yellow birch sure does polish nice, cherry does to for that matter, but has a few inclusions (good or bad depends on the user)...........  ZZZZZZZZZzzzz dreaming. :D

[SwampDonkey]

Just a little photo update.



The face is cherry. The inside braces of the edging/facing are cherry.




The sides and back are Y birch, the bottom is cherry veneer. The good side is inside the drawer. The rails are Y. birch and the rails are secured to butternut.

[SwampDonkey]

Mortised the pedestal feet today. Cut most of the wood away with my bandsaw and then chiseled away a sleeve 1/4 " on one section. The feet fit nice and tight to.  Have to shave about 1/16" off a couple feet so it sits perfect flat.

[Don K]

Looking good. You'll be finished in no time and moving on to the next project.

Don

[WDH]

That pedestal base turned out real good. 

I like the way you are using different species of wood. 

Where will the final product be used?

[SwampDonkey]

Well I have this wind up mantel clock I bought down in Virginia a few years back that I thought needs a new home. So I'll use it there for a bit, then I'm taking it down to mother's so she can admire it for awhile and she thinks she'll use it for a card table. But, it ain't staying down there, just on loan. IT'S MINE!! :D :D

[SwampDonkey]

Feet mounted on pedestal.  :P

[Mooseherder]

Nice Job SD. 8)

[SwampDonkey]

Still have to cut the upper supports and mortise them to the top of the pedestal. They will be running from corner to corner underneath the table top.

Toot toot!  8)

[Mooseherder]

Looks like a great winter project. ;)
Whats next?  You still have alot of winter left. :D

[SwampDonkey]

I was thinking a yellow birch table with some inlay or a small foot locker. Maybe both. :D

[Don K]

That will be beautiful after the finish is applied. I can't wait to see the contrasts of wood.

Don

[SwampDonkey]

Here is the upper support mortised together. Fits like a glove.  ;D The wood looks light, but it will finish a light brown. It's ash heartwood.

[SwampDonkey]

Applied the first finish coat on the underside of the table and pedestal. Using Diamond Varathane, water based.





















You didn't notice the spalted birch feet did ya?  :D :D 8)

[Don K]

I saw it in reply 66 but I thought it was some type of moisture staining. I figured it would blend into your finish or you wouldn't have used it.

Don

[SwampDonkey]

3 coats of finish applied. 

[beenthere]

SD
Going to be very interesting to see how this top holds together as the seasons cause dimensional change in the wood. Sure looks like some good woodworking skills going into it.

What are the finish coats?  sprayed or brushed on?

[SwampDonkey]

Brushed on.

One of the reasons I was taking my time was to see how the wood reacted to extreme dry heat in the shop, 100-120° F at times. :D Not while working on it, but in between. I kept measuring the width across the grain of the ash and the movement was very slight. So it's been in the driest situation it's ever going to be. In the summer will be more humid and I was thinking it will just tighten up more than anything. We'll see.  ;D

[isawlogs]

 Nice peice of furniture , you about ready for the shipping address,  ;D It will be an honour to store it here and give you weekly comments on the wood movement.

[Burlkraft]

Lookin' good Donk  ;D  ;D  ;D

I like it almost as much as last year's desk  ;)  ;)

[SwampDonkey]

Well Marcel, I told mom I gotta sit and admire it for awhile before she gets it. But that it is only on loan. She's already looking for a spot to stash her burl coffee table. I fear I'll never see it again once it leaves the old farm.  :(


WELL, the inlay birch table ain't leaving. 


Hmm, gotta build it first. ;D :D :D

[WDH]

Nice!

There is a pile of geometry going on in that top . 

I am impressed!

[SwampDonkey]

I ain't one to boast, but I'm pretty proud of it.  8)


More geometry to come. ;D

[WDH]

Partner,

You should be proud of that one ;D.

[metalspinner]

Your table looks wonderful, SD.

The time you spent headscratching  really paid off on the leg and pedestal base.