Skidding distance

[tyb525]

It would be nice to know the kind of volume that Mr. King is looking at!

[jim king]

The reason for this post is to find a solution not only for myself but for hundreds of concession owners who are renting land from the Government of Peru for planned management and logging for a 40 year period.  

Below you will see a couple of maps of  typical  concession areas.  As you can see the majority of the concessions are not accessible by any creek or river, we have no roads..  Each concession has a minimum of 10,000 acres so you can see the distances involved.  The total in concession is over 4,000,000 acres in this state of which the most is inaccessible.

The amount of wood we are talking about is 10´s of millions of BF to be  harvested  under  a forestry management plan.  As each concession has at least 10,000 acres you can see the distances required to move the logs.  It is obvious that the most of the concessions are simply useless as building a road here requires that the roadway be at least 150 feet wide so the sun and a light breeze can get in to dry the road from the rains or on the other hand just plowing thru the jungle with a skidder normally one pass is all you get as the soil is always wet under the canopy and you get ruts that are not passable a second time so you can imagine the amount of area damaged by skidding or the deforestation created by building usable roads.

Skidders and dozers are really not an option as they SINK a lot and it creates  a real problem both time and money wise to get them out.  The land is normally gently rolling with sponge swamp to dry area again to  sponge  swamp .  With all the experience of the old farts and a few young ones on this forum there are coming out some very good possibilities.

Please keep the ideas coming.  This State of Loreto is 30 % larger than Oregon and it is 99.9 % forested and produces about .003% of what Oregon produces annually.  There are a lot of possibilities but a lot of problems also.  With this untapped renewable resource Peru is a major importer of wood.
Figure that one out ?¿

Jim

[Ron Scott]

Ditto! on the 1/4 mile or less skid distance for a "normal logging chance". Farther than that and you need to consider haul roads, railroad, helicopter, balloon, etc depending upon your costs and market value of the timber.

[Ron Wenrich]

Corduroy road.  You take your logging debris and use that as a road base.  You can also use your slabs from your sawing operations.  Bring them back by log truck or barge.  Put them cross wise and you should be able to drive across them.  When you're done, the jungle reclaims the wood.

What size of tires are you using on the skidders?  The ones for the wet areas in the South are much wider than the ones we use here in the North.  With the wet soils, you want something that has a wider footprint.  It helps spread the weight out.

I would think of going with something that could use a larger payload.  Forwarders are used, but I don't know what the total weight load your soils can take.  You could go with smaller vehicles and team them up as a train.  They used to bring trailerloads of logs down mountains in a train where one tractor would haul several loads at one time.  One had something like 13 trailers behind it. 

But, you're not talking mountain roads.  Maybe you could look at a train being a good number of logs that are pulled out by one vehicle.  You would have to put some sort of axle under the front and back of the logs to give you a rolling momentum instead of a dragging resistance.  You could also put a bunch of your cants on such a train. 

[Okrafarmer]

The fertile mind of Okrafarmer has been mulling this over for 24 hours now and has thought of a couple other things.

First, I think you should take your mill into the woods and only send out cants and valuable cuts. You should do as Ron says and corduroy with your slabs, but take the mill with you as you go. Start at the landing with the mill, mill your logs as you go, use the slabs to corduroy, and move the mill back  as you go. Use forwarders with oversize tires to carry the logs back over the corduroy to the landing. Move your mill after you make a quarter mile of progress or so. Then you will also be using forwarders to move the milled stock back to the landing. This makes it so you will not be taking any unnecessary material on the long haul with you.

Use a high capacity portable sawmill that is highly mobile under those conditions (modify as necessary) and remember you're not sawing into little boards, you are sawing into cants, and that is much faster, so it won't be too time consuming.

I have another system idea, but I need to think it over a little more before posting it.

PS may I come work with you for a few months and help you figure this stuff out?

[tyb525]

Can I come with Okra? ;D

[Ianab]

I'm still thinking narrow gauge bush tramway is the way to go.

Planning a 5mile length of track pretty daunting, but you don't build it all in one go. 1/4 mile to your first landing and you are hauling logs. A winch set up at the landing and drag in all the logs within range while the track crew extend the line to the next landing. Once you have a main line you can build more temporary spur lines off to the side.

If you are looking to extend through several concession areas to access areas further from the roadhead or river then it may be worth going concrete and steel on gravel base so you get many years of use. For spur lines or temporary access, wooden lines should last long enough.

I would also consider milling at the landing. Hauling even a portable mill very far though the jungle is no fun, but setting it up at a landing where you have rail access is pretty simple and you could then move the mill a few feet to each log dragged it to the landing by the winch. Then load the boards or cants onto the tram wagons and haul them out. A swingblade mill will make short work of cutting 8x8 cants from a big log.

Having the rail line then gives you a way of getting crew, equipment and supplies in to the landing easily. 

I'm not familiar with specific tropical rainforest like you are dealing with, but our area is temperate rainforest, so I know a little about rain and mud  :D

Ian

[Okrafarmer]

Ianab has some good points. I wasn't sure exactly what type of sawmill to use, but I was thinking swing mill might be best. I have a friend in micronesia who uses a swing mill and he hauls it out into the jungle with no problem, very primitive, and mills each log right where it falls, or has it drug out a short ways to where it is easier to deal with. He cuts up some mighty big logs that way including mahogany. He also says they don't have to worry about drying the wood-- they build everything with green timber because the average mc on the island is the same as the green wood! This is what makes me think milling out cants is a good way to go; I'm guessing your wood will not suffer much from premature drying.

One big thing is to try to keep your sawmill and your log / cant delivery system in sync with each other, that is the sawmill should be able to keep up with the loggers, and vice versa so it's fairly even.

[stumphugger]

There were a lot of large yarders setting around and rusting up here.  The scrap market improved so off they went.  How about a series of skyline yarding systems.  We call it swing yarding.  The only thing limiting the distance is the weight of the lines.  Figure that out, and if it would work on the profile of your land and off you go.

Well, you said brainstorm....

[mad murdock]

Jim,
Have you seen the tundra buggies they use on the North Slope oil fields in Alaska?  They are some fairly large pieces of equipment, but can move over real soft and unsteady ground, as they have very high flotation tires, and the impact is real low on the tundra.  Rolligon makes several different flavors of them.http://www.nov.com/Well_Service_and_Completion/All_Terrain_Vehicles.aspx
 One of those machines would be a large enough platform to move logging/mill equipment in/out, and be able to haul lots of cants in and out as well. maybe even could mount a couple of winches and tower to move trees/logs to the mill, then move the cants to water transport.  Maybe not practical for your location, but they do work well in the far reaches of the north country.  I have heard of a guy getting run over by one of the huge tires, and it's applied pressure was so low that it pushed him into the soft ground, rolled over him, and he got up after it passed over him, uninjured (maybe a local urban legend of Deadhorse, AK). Upon further investigation of the website, they have sales offices in Peru(Lima). What do you think?

[Tom]

I'm still hung up on levitation.

After the 2012 elections, here in the USA, there may be a lot of people who claim to be able to levitate large projects and they could probably be had on the cheap.  A promise of an airplane ride and a tropical vacation would be good bait.

I seriously think that you are in the Helicopter realm of logging.  Ron Scott also mentioned balloons.  I was thinking of them too, at the same time.  I don't know what a balloon will lift, but helium and maybe hydrogen (if you are careful) would get the logs out.  The good thing balloons have over helicopters is that they can be built by anybody.  The local labor force (maybe the wives of the loggers) could sew envelopes and create their own transportation system.  Just think, the beginning of a new cottage industry.  The cost could be made to fit the profits of the logging.  Yes, there would have to be some financial backing, but nothing like a commercial Helicopter and its maintenance would be.

Balloons would lift the logs, maybe several at a time.  They could be propelled by a pilot with a motor.  It probably wouldn't take more than a propeller and small engine like is used on these little parachute airplanes.   The citizens can even make the propellers.  There is instructions for making wooden propellers on Youtube.  Fuel could be created right there in the jungle with distilleries.  It would also provide a lot of fun on Saturday night and might keep the workers on the job through the weekend.

If the balloons were filled with hydrogen (an explosive gas) then the logs could be lifted by balloon and pulled through the jungle on narrow clear roads built for water buffalo.  Just attach one end of the stage line to the buffalo, there-unto, and the other end to the balloon and make sure that the line doesn't get entangled in the canopy of the jungle.   It would be easy to guide because the logs wouldn't have to be too high.  It would be like the balloon dolls that are part of the parades in the USA.

I still like the idea of finding a politician who can wave his hand over the log and send it on its way, sailing at tree-top level to be caught 8 miles further on by another human wonder. . 

[Ron Wenrich]

Back in the '70s I worked for Bohemia Lumber out in Oregon.  They were using balloons and I was to be a choker setter on the job.  It never turned out that way, but I did get to see the rig.  I don't think anyone is using balloons anymore.

Basically, the balloon provided the lift and they could go out further distances.  But, we were using them from one ridge to another at the time.

I wonder what the terrain is like where Jim is located.

[Tom]

wet...   dark....   :D

[Okrafarmer]

How about a twist on high-lead logging. Try zip-line towers with winches to raise the log up to a height of (maybe) a hundred feet or so, every mile or so. The ziplines are in series. You are limited by the practical safe height you can build them.They could be built from a tall strong tree that is leaning at a slight angle, or built out of timbers you mill out on the spot, or  (more expensive probably) built out of steel. So your first mile or so in you have your first tower. (I think a drop of 50:1 would be sufficient for the zipline). The tower has the capability of hoisting a huge log 100 feet in the air, where it is snapped onto cable trollies riding on the zip line. (each tower can be equipped with enough of the little trollies to last the day). The 2% drop should be sufficient to allow the log to ride the zipline cable the mile or so down to the landing. 2 miles into the jungle, you build your second tower. . . . . repeat, repeat, repeat as needed.

If 2% is not enough grade for the log to ride down to the next station, then build the towers closer or higher.

Each tower should only require two operators-- one to set cables on the ground, and one at the top of the tower to run the winch and attach the log to the upper cables. If this seems to risky or complicated, it doesn't have to be, as I can think of ways to work out all the details.

This system can also work well for connecting other towers that are perpendicular to the main track.

The winches on the towers can also be used to log out their surrounding area.

I have never seen a high lead system in action, but if what I am describing is essentially the way they do it, then forgive me for trying to reinvent the wheel.

[stumphugger]

I'm still hung up on levitation.

After the 2012 elections, here in the USA, there may be a lot of people who claim to be able to levitate large projects and they could probably be had on the cheap.  A promise of an airplane ride and a tropical vacation would be good bait.

I seriously think that you are in the Helicopter realm of logging.  Ron Scott also mentioned balloons.  I was thinking of them too, at the same time.  I don't know what a balloon will lift, but helium and maybe hydrogen (if you are careful) would get the logs out.  The good thing balloons have over helicopters is that they can be built by anybody.  The local labor force (maybe the wives of the loggers) could sew envelopes and create their own transportation system.  Just think, the beginning of a new cottage industry.  The cost could be made to fit the profits of the logging.  Yes, there would have to be some financial backing, but nothing like a commercial Helicopter and its maintenance would be.

Balloons would lift the logs, maybe several at a time.  They could be propelled by a pilot with a motor.  It probably wouldn't take more than a propeller and small engine like is used on these little parachute airplanes.   The citizens can even make the propellers.  There is instructions for making wooden propellers on Youtube.  Fuel could be created right there in the jungle with distilleries.  It would also provide a lot of fun on Saturday night and might keep the workers on the job through the weekend.

If the balloons were filled with hydrogen (an explosive gas) then the logs could be lifted by balloon and pulled through the jungle on narrow clear roads built for water buffalo.  Just attach one end of the stage line to the buffalo, there-unto, and the other end to the balloon and make sure that the line doesn't get entangled in the canopy of the jungle.   It would be easy to guide because the logs wouldn't have to be too high.  It would be like the balloon dolls that are part of the parades in the USA.

I still like the idea of finding a politician who can wave his hand over the log and send it on its way, sailing at tree-top level to be caught 8 miles further on by another human wonder. . 

Balloons were used on the Olympic peninsula.  I never saw one in action.  I think the balloons were used to hold up the skyline. 

For those of you not familiar with logging systems, the skyline is the line that the carriage (Pulley thing) rides on.  The carriage carries the logs.  If you are pulling the logs downhill, you need a haulback line hooked up to the carriage for slowing it down, and getting the carriage back up the hill.  Downhilling cuts production in half.   

For yarding logs uphill, you have a mainline hooked to the carriage and pull the logs uphill.  You let the carriage back down by letting it go, and slowing and stopping it when it gets near the next group of logs.  This is called gravity, flyer, and shotgun. 

One guy says they had one balloon system operating that went for more than a mile.  I can't confirm or deny that. 

Nowdays, steel towers are used on yarders.  But there's nothing that says you can't go back to the spar tree days.

Here is a video I shot of a Madill 071 with a motorized carriage.  Ironically, now that I have a better camera, there are no yarders working in my theater of action.
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[Holmes]

 I like tyb525 idea, wooden rail way system. Could you use trees as the rails, set them on as many ties as needed then use tireless rims to ride the rails. Some adapting would be needed to get some grip on the rails but you could build small pickup truck size rails for starters then work the system up to loading areas with skidders? tractors? pulling trailers out of the jungle on the larger rails .   Holmes 

[Ianab]

This is what we were thinking as a bush railway. This one was actually built to give access to a dam and water reservoir in the hills  near Auckland city. It's now operated as a tourist attraction, as well as still providing access to the dam and pipeline.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-2sJyCUIg8

No reason it couldn't haul a few logs, or even better, cants of sawn wood.

Part of the issue Jim has is that they don't have a million dollars for a helicopter or a big high lead logging machine, even if they could get the thing into the jungle and not loose it in the mud, who the heck is going to operate it?

At least with a bush tram is something the locals can understand, they seem a pretty ingenious bunch, so building that sort of setup should be simple enough for the locals.

Ian

[Ron Wenrich]

It appears that they have a lot of ballast under those tracks, and that they use some sort of tie system.  Jim has described land that ruts up pretty quickly and is always wet.  How much ballast would they need and where would it come from to make a stable base? 

A conventional rail system uses about 3200 ties per mile of track.  That is about 135 Mbf of ties per mile.  The smaller tram system doesn't use as big of tie, but even if you cut that by 75%, you'll need 35 Mbf.  That's not much of a concern, especially if you cut them on site using chainsaws. 

[VTLogSlayer]

This summer i interned for a forest management company in Maine and the rule of thumb we used was about 2400 ft, depending on location, tree size, etc,etc

[Okrafarmer]

As said before, it all depends on the value of the wood compared to the cost of your method of retrieval-- more valuable wood can be skidded farther than less valuable wood for a decent profit.

[stumphugger]

Oregon State University has folks who have worked in the tropics.  You might give them a call.  They have a Forest Engineering Dept. that has had folks all over the world. 

[Mooseherder]

Jim,  I think ATV logging is a very viable option for your dilema.
Especially with today's machines that can haul a pretty good size trailer.
I can see my machines which are 500's pulling quite a few of those Cants in one haul, especially with the right trailer set up with tandem flotations and high sides.
Trailer and ATV set up would be about 8 grand and less if purchased used.
There aren't very many places I can't go in 4 wheel low either.
Add some strategically placed winches for problem areas until your haul road is built up.
These machines can run all day for 2-3 gallons of fuel.
Your Cant pulp and shavings could also be spread out on your haul road working your way back or dedicate 1 crew to working on the haul lane.  Working your way into the woods from the closest landing back into the forest.
Maybe even have a wood chipper for debris hauled in behind a machine to help build up the haul lane.
Surely this would have to be more productive than hauling one at a time thru brute force.
These machines are relatively cheap compared to any alternative. ;)

[pasbuild]

Good point Glen, I have hauled  some big ash and cedar out of some nasty swamps with a 4 wheeler and log arch.

[nas]

I was thinking the same, but maybe an argo with tracks?  Or a snow machine like a bombardier?  I sure would beat hauling it out on peoples backs.

Nick

[jim king]

These are little rubber tracked dumper machines from China that cost less than $4,000 each imported from China.  So far I think this is the best bet.  They consume about 2 gallons of deisel in 10 hours.

The bigger one I equiped with a roof and comfortable seats that are removable.  I dont like walking several miles to see what is going on so I would radio in and have the machine sent out to pick me up.  Just enough room between the leg space for a cooler.

Here are some photos showing the extremes in the terrain on one road and the whole area is the same.  The cuts thru the hills are done with shovels and wheel barrows.  These little machines still seem to be the best bet.