The start of another big table; a CA white oak crotch harvested from a freeway bypass in Willits, CA. these 4 sequential slabs will be bookmatched, end matched into a large dining table. This seems to be the year of large dining room tables. Here's what I am starting with; the four slabs with about 2-1/2" of twist after months in the kiln. My motto: tame that beast!
The finish on this is spec'd high sheen so the joinery needs to be dead flat. I hope I can pull it off.
This photo was taken from one of my forklifts from about 15' in the air. No drones around here. Cheers Rob
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/35190/DSCN1098.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1473982688)
Looks like a real challenge.
Let the building begin!!!
smiley_clapping smiley_blue_bounce smiley_bounce smiley_bouncing_pinky
That's pretty big all right but when we were installing a kiln for Pacific Rim Tonewoods, we met Bob Taylor who owns Taylor Guitar. They were drying a slab for Bob's new dining table. That slab was 34' long. But yours will be more work.
Can't wait to see how you flatten them. Thanks for sharing. :)
popcorn_smiley Can't wait!
Looking forward to following your progress :)
May have to park the fork lift on them for a few months. I bet you have a good plan though. bg
Yes, that is literally what we do with this Cat forklift. I started flattening slabs by this method a year ago in response to market demand. In this pic the Cat is getting new brakes this morning. A little unorthodox but it works every time. Rob
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/35190/DSCN1143.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1474034095)
popcorn_smiley
Here's a picture of Bob's table. A lot less work than Rob's although it did take two fork trucks to lift it. I wonder if they ever got it in his house?
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That's Bob in the "middle".
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After the individual slabs get sat on by the big cat, we pin them to a true table and begin filling the cracks one by one with a combination of different viscosity epoxies. This is not a fast operation and takes many days if you do it continuously. Building a single table at a time, you would go broke, so you have to have a continuous production line of tables going all the time. This method of flattening a slab is a lot like a Dr. realigning a bad break in an athlete's bone.
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A quick view of one of the true tables with continuous in process table tops. There are tableslabs backed up in the kiln, tabletops tilted up against the walls, tabletops stacked up in the interior shop and we recently added 2 more flat working table areas outdoors to keep things moving.
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After the reasonably flat slabs are set up, they are hand planed by a skilled person or me. At this point, we have removed very minimal material and bring the slabs to where we want them within sanding range.
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If the slabs are small enough to fit through a planer or a wide belt sander, they can be positioned on a sled that will give you one flat reference surface on the slab. Again, removing minimal amount of material. These pics are of a quick and dirty sled I built today lofting off of one of my truly flat tables. Notice in the last photo the little bit of overhang on the top piece of MDF. This is where you can shoot screws through to secure the slab. If the slabs are too big to fit through machinery, we go to belt sanding, then a monstrous orbital sander. Rob
I am not any type of real finish woodworker......yet.
So I am asking to learn here--would a floor sander work for big slabs like that?
Never tried one, but I don't see why not. Rent before you buy ! Also the floor sander does not give you any reference as it is meant to go on an already flat floor. Rob
:P popcorn_smiley
Oh Wow Rob, you are a Table Whisperer Extraordinaire' !!!
Rob,
I don't quite get the MDF/foam sled in the last few pictures. How do you use that in your flattening operation?
I will take pics this next week of the sled in action. Rob
Looks like you have done that a few times. ;) ;D
Quote from: Magicman on September 17, 2016, 09:13:01 AM
Oh Wow Rob, you are a Table Whisperer Extraordinaire' !!!
:D
Rob it seems like I learn something new from everyone of your posts. Thanks for the education. 8)
Talk about education,,,I'd like to have Lynn (Magicman) visit here and teach my milling crew how to cut wood, that's no joke ! Rob ;)
Mr Magicman is a Legend . . . and he gets paid by the Mile
Magicman. Have Sawmill Will Travel.
Remember Paladin? :D https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Have_Gun_%E2%80%93_Will_Travel
Unlike Paladin, he just Saws Em and Leaves Em.
Yes, I certainly do, Richard somebody or other-never smiled..... :)
Boone I believe.
That is one serious undertaking you have going there. 8) I enjoy seeing your projects and some of your "outside the box" techniques. No doubt you'll pull it off, definitely will be watching this one closely.
How do you price something like that? With the cutting and drying you must have close to $5/600 in to it by now.
I know you do stuff like this all the time and that will give an Idear how long it will take. But, all wood is not the same. :)
Good questions. Bluntly; the economics of logs, wood and woodworking vary quite a bit from coast to coast. I earlier posted that I have continuous progression of tables/bartops going through here and I am booked out through sometime next year. We just recently finished a job we started in early 2015. That said, if you built these things one at a time, with the amount of time it takes to produce an exceptional piece, you would go broke. There is not a lot of profit margin in any one of these pieces and if we didn't multi task in the shop, the shop rate would dive preciously close to single digits when it needs to be triple digits. So, there is an old saying, I make up for my losses in volume. When I fished, I used to occasionally come to the docks and see guys coming in with 30-$100,000 swordfish loads. I chose another path with rockcod and slime eels at 0.50/lb but I pounded at it 7 days a week. The swordfish guys would sneer at me with their 2-3 trips/year and me working like a crazy person. End of the year, every year, I was the one who sneered at them, in private, looking at my tax returns. It's just sort of the way I do things.
Going back to pricing, it is a combination of the obvious business plan of what it takes you to run, plus a little profit and what the traffic will bear. I can't get the prices for my quality work - that lesser work gets in the big city because I own a sawmill. The assumption is, people are buying cut rate wood/services when they go to a sawmill. And we all know the fallacy in that. We are just thinking about changing our business and adding basically a storefront and salespeople and that will drastically change how we figure pricing. As a matter of fact, that is something we are working on this weekend.
How do you figure pricing? It's a little science, a little math and knowing your business (and a little magic).
I smell a pig roast for the metro area coming together with MM as the guest of honor. I can imagine rite leg would take the trip down, now we just need a location where there are lots of table tops and projects underway for show and tell. TPT - any ideas :)
Nothing better than the aroma of pork a' smokin, but the metro area for me is LA, San Diego and Palm Springs. We certainly support any functions of the FF.
Now that there is a Pig Roast I could actually make! 8)
No matter where you are Pricing can be a big factor. For me, long timbers are Tuff sometimes .
Thanks for the info tule
I love to see your projects, and I know documenting them takes time. So, I want to say thanks for taking us along.
My strategy is to price the wood for a project as if I am selling it to the customer. Then, I quote them an hourly rate to build the project. I keep up with my shop time, and multiply the # of hours x the hourly rate, add the cost of the wood, and that is what they get charged. If the customer is so concerned with paying me by the hour for quality, one-of-a-kind pieces, then that is a customer that I do not want, anyway.
There are times where I quote a lump sum price, but that is for projects that I have had a good bit of experience making, so I know the reasonable amount of time it will take, and I can go from there. However, most times when I tried making something new or custom, and I tried to estimate the time to build, I almost always came out short. It seems that it always takes longer to make something than you think.
It seems that it always takes longer to make something than you think.
I hear that every weekend when I come i from sawing :D :D :D :D
TPL, you park a forklift on the slabs? At what EMC? How long? Don't they cracK?
I wondered about that, too. Doesn't that leave stressed wood?
The heavy lift is strategically driven over the kiln dried slabs to induce cracks, thereby relieving wood stress. There is a sandy spot in front of the shop where I dig shallow trenches, chalk out where I want to fracture and then pressure is applied. On a work table, I do the same thing with dozens of clamps and steel bars and then a sudden strike with a 20 lb. sledgehammer. I liken my method to cleaving a diamond or as I said earlier, realigning a bad break in an athlete's bone. Stress in a slab can also be corrected by scoring on the back, then clamping to a true surface but my method is a procedure that doesn't produce the unpleasant side effects of saw kerf marks, plus it is very fast. Rob
QuoteI liken my method to cleaving a diamond
I like this definition because you Sir are indeed "cleaving diamonds".
Mighty clever guy!! May I ask how you figured all that out??
How did I get to this point, I pretty much tried everything else in the book. I've tried steaming, scoring, preloading with an antitwist, each with some success but the crack and reset is rapid and I have to do a lot of slabs per week. I have attached a pic of the partially flattened slabs laid out on the floor to be oversized trimmed for the proper character pattern I want on the top. I am trying to get the overall look to be like a giant 4 legged spider using the crotch flames for legs. This necessitates angling the cuts on each of the bookmatched/endmatched sets to get things to point to the center. Tomorrow we will continue our flattening journey. Rob
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/35190/DSCN1157.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1474412668)
This is getting deep. Keep it up.
The first of the four slabs was flattened to near perfection today, and squared on two edges . Next it is grooved to accept the splines that will hold the table together. Got my leg design "ok'd", and we are working on the finish/edge sample. Rob
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The last of the four pieces, sanded flat then dadoed for the splines. It is important to dado right out of the sander when the wood is good and flat and atmospheric changes haven't affected it yet.
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Next I map out the scrap pieces for the leg and stretcher parts
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After resawing ,and planing, and sanding oversized I let the veneers relax a bit overnight before final sanding to size. Tomorrow I will start setting up the curved stretcher with these veneers. Rob
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Table number 2 complete. My days of woodworking are numbered. 3 end tables to go.
I put at least 15 coats of poly on this table. After about 3 coats I'd have to sand it all down and start over for various reasons like dust, brush strokes, sweat drops.
I'd never make a body/paint man
Sanding sucks
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Table looks good!!
Brenda would like the floor.
All that work and you use poly? Do you ever use epoxy?
I think it's so much faster for tables and bars.
What is going on? all those nice looking slabs are rectangles now. :o :o :o :o
Yes,,,,I understand your point ! This table is built to a basic design suggested by the design group purchasing it. I have some leeway,,,,but there a lot of cooks in the kitchen, so to speak. Rob
Bill,
You did a nice job finishing that oak. Really nice.
And today the stretcher glue up. Rob
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:o :P popcorn_smiley
Subscribed. I love your posts!
More progress in the last couple of days:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/35190/DSCN1197.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1475794097) The big stretcher with the first coat of sealer today.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/35190/DSCN1194.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1475795026)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/35190/DSCN1195.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1475795074) The legs sections forming up from scrap arranged in a book matched pattern. Due to the size of the table I went with a hollow design veneered over plywood. The mitered sections are kept well aerated with blocks prior to final glue-up.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/35190/DSCN1199.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1475795337) The bottom of the table receiving fairing and coating today. We will have the bottom done within a week. During the construction of this 12 foot table we will also have completed another 20 to 25 tables - here are some random pics of other tables we are building in parallel -at the same time.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/35190/DSCN1189.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1475795688)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/35190/mushroom_table_with_stump_base_cropped_Sept2816.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1475795794)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/35190/White_oak_for_PS_092816.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1475795853)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/35190/DSCN1200.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1475795957)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/35190/DSCN1202.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1475796020) And a whole bunch more I didn't take pics of. Cheers Rob
Gluing up a leg section. Because they are hollow, leg levelers are easy to install on blocks recessed up about an inch .Rob
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My hats off to you Rob! Your innovation is amazing, always enjoy your posts!
Rob...your set up, ideas, creativity, machinery....and so on, for miles...coupled with your artistry and innovation...once again coupled with mass production, without all the downfalls of mass production, are astonishing!!! You are an inspiration to all of us, I'm sure!! Keep it coming... please!!!
I'm very interested in this topic, extremely impressive. Are you fairing with epoxy? Finishing with Liquid Glass or similar? The finish looks great.
What do yo you guys mean by " fairing" ? Filling in the voids ?
Thanks, Frank
Void filling is done with wood flour and epoxy, while the fairing is done with clear epoxy. Fairing , if done on a perfectly level table , is easy as the epoxy itself, is self leveling. Lots of sanding ! We do use liquid glass, on occasion, but mostly another epoxy system that is less viscous. The different epoxys (manufacturers ) have really different property's and these differences can be capitalized on in several ways to aid production.
Very beautiful wood in those pictures. I envy you your apparently consistent climate in California. Here in the midwest, I could never use the techniques that are working so well for you. Everything would blow up after one year. We have winters that are so dry that nose bleeds are common without good humidifiers running all the time. In the summer, 90% to 100% humidity is the norm. I built a cherry dining table for my wife 15 years ago that changes in width by 3/4" between summer and winter.
I enjoy checking in on this thread to see what's new!
Hi woodworker9,This week we had 5% to 98% humidity, freezing to 95 degrees in temp, and winds from zero to 50 mph. Keep in mind ,these extremes in just the last seven days ! Not exactly smooth sailing here, which is why I hung up my Captains license in 1999. I just try to do the best I can, weather permitting, to keep production up.
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(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/35190/DSCN1217.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1477252740) The White Oak legs are done and ready for fitting to the bottom of the big table. I built some plugs that slide inside the box structure for east assembly on site .
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/35190/DSCN1220.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1477252968)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/35190/DSCN1219.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1477253032) Then here comes the next big table. This is a slightly bigger version in Claro Walnut at 6 feet X 14 feet . I'm using the same leg design to save time, always trying to save time.! cheers Rob
Rob, if you don't mind. What did you use for glue on the veneer? Impressive as always!
I used Gorilla Glue as the backs were not perfect and there were some shallow spots here and there. The "veneers " are 1/2 inch thick, so I could get some profile on the edges/corners. Cheers Rob
Beautiful. :o Makes my eyes hurt! :)
Very beautiful. Love the curve. I'll take the walnut one. $300?
Per BF... :D
I like the walnut one, and think $300.00 a BF is low for a creation from your shop. It would be nice if the top flipped up to have a hidden spot to store guns and ammo in the hollow stretcher and legs. smiley_thumbsup
Hi 21, This recent mantle we did is in fact a gun safe. Cheers Rob
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Well after weeks of filling , sanding , fairing, more sanding and countless finish applications, we ship on Monday.
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(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/35190/DSCN1243.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1479840639) And today we move on to the next one, 5 feet wide and 14 feet long.Claro walnut end-matched crotches. Cheers Rob
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That finished table is an eye popper. :o :)
Another beautiful job!
Now that is fine.
What a master piece. Thanks for all the photos of this project. Will be watching to see your next build. bg
Okay, we're ready to watch the next build!
Spectacular as all ways :)
Spectacular, as always.
Do you have any pix of the construction techniques on the mantle/safe? I would be interested in learning more about it.
Scott
I sure can blog the nest hollow mantle that comes up ! I build quite a few a year. Everyone have a safe healthy Thanksgiving. Rob
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Most impressive!! Truly a work of art and skill!
That just came out amazing. I hope you got it to them in time for Thanksgiving. ;D Can't wait to see the next one. :)
Do you have the finish on all sides of the top? Is the bottom sealed?
Yes , all sides have the same finishing schedule. The top gets a lot more attention to make sure that it is perfect, but everything is thoroughly sealed.
Great thread!
Amazing work!!!
Quote from: scsmith42 on November 23, 2016, 05:39:10 PM
Spectacular, as always.
Do you have any pix of the construction techniques on the mantle/safe? I would be interested in learning more about it.
Scott
Is anyone interested on a mantle build thread ?
Quote from: tule peak timber on January 14, 2017, 10:32:32 AM
Quote from: scsmith42 on November 23, 2016, 05:39:10 PM
Spectacular, as always.
Do you have any pix of the construction techniques on the mantle/safe? I would be interested in learning more about it.
Scott
Is anyone interested on a mantle build thread ?
Absolutely!
Quote from: tule peak timber on January 14, 2017, 10:32:32 AM
Quote from: scsmith42 on November 23, 2016, 05:39:10 PM
Spectacular, as always.
Do you have any pix of the construction techniques on the mantle/safe? I would be interested in learning more about it.
Scott
Is anyone interested on a mantle build thread ?
YES!!!!
Me three. The way you build with word?? :)
GET CRACKIN' ;D.
WOW!! I would not know where to start. Retail wants to take 1/2 and all they have is a roof and a phone.
The big walnut table is leaving tomorrow morning along with a walnut chest of drawers. The next batch of tables start on Tuesday. I will start a "hollow mantle " thread next week. Cheers Rob
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He is a nice looking tom
Oh yea nice table too
Buck
The chest of drawers that goes with it tomorrow. Rob
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A couple more amazing pieces of art out your door. Looking forward to the mantle thread. 8) 8)
Looking forward to the mantle thread.
On a side note, Rob do you know of any flexible material that could be used to fill surface checks on a large oak beam that already has been treated with a tung oil finish? The beam is still green and will be drying for the next several years. It's going to be used as a seating bench in a public area.
I'm concerned about splinters developing at the edges of the checks. I'm not sure that epoxy would be a good answer because it may pull away over time as the beam continues to dry. Any suggestions?
Thx.
Hi SC, You are correct that epoxy is the wrong material. 3-M 5200 comes to mind first and you might look at boat deck caulking , like butal rubber. Then there are the post catalyzed urethane's . When we produce something like your bench we use small dental burrs and completely eat out-smooth out all cracks . Sometimes this takes more than a few days of labor but we don't depend on any filler that may future fail. hope this helps Rob
Has anyone tried g-flex or similar?
I have not tried G-flex. I will try to find the data sheet from Gugeon brothers for a look at the shore-d ratings. I have used an epoxy system called Shell Epon , and they have a hardener that will make their epoxy like stiff rubber. Pretty obscure stuff.....You can also research post catalyzed silicon rubber put out by Dow corning , I have experience with this stuff also. I can also give you the contact info of a company I use, that will customize epoxy to your specific needs. Then there are the guys in Texas.... All specialized chemicals..... Rob
I use a lot of G-Flex and thinks its a great product. That was my first thought when SC asked, but after thinking a bit it won't do what he wants. Too much movement IMO and I'm not sure how good of bond can be obtained with green wood that's had tung oil on it.
One of the great things about quality products, especially West Systems is one can call and usually ask an engineer about how the product will perform.
The reason I asked about g-flex is I ordered some last week for a cookie table project. After reading Robs recommendations maybe I'll do a little more homework smiley_book2_page. You've gotta love this forum for the wealth of no nonsense knowledge available!
The table and chest are stunning as usual. I look forward to seeing your mantel build.
Uptown job as always great work 8) 8)
Quote from: tule peak timber on January 17, 2017, 06:52:42 PM
Hi SC, You are correct that epoxy is the wrong material. 3-M 5200 comes to mind first and you might look at boat deck caulking , like butal rubber. Then there are the post catalyzed urethane's . When we produce something like your bench we use small dental burrs and completely eat out-smooth out all cracks . Sometimes this takes more than a few days of labor but we don't depend on any filler that may future fail. hope this helps Rob
Rob, thanks for the advice. A friend of mine that's a sign builder indicated that he used sandblasting to knock off the sharp edges on his signs, but unfortunately that is not an option due to the fact that I've already applied an oil finish and cleaning the sand out of the checks would be problematic.
I'll give the burrs a try.
Quote from: tule peak timber on January 15, 2017, 06:10:40 PM
The chest of drawers that goes with it tomorrow. Rob
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Spectacular wood! I like how you centered the spalted area from the crotch on one end - quite striking.
Another Claro Walnut table top finished up today. Really nice figure in this one. I used bark inlay in the larger holes. Sorry for the glare !
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Sweet!
Wow!
Another masterpiece! smiley_thumbsup
Once again you hit it out of the park. Spectacular! Two thumbs up
Wow X2
Wow another fantastic top. Is there a pic with the legs under it? 8) 8)
Another work of art!!!
Quote from: 21incher on February 23, 2017, 08:29:33 AM
Wow another fantastic top. Is there a pic with the legs under it? 8) 8)
Hopefully soon !
Quote from: scsmith42 on January 21, 2017, 07:02:18 PM
Quote from: tule peak timber on January 17, 2017, 06:52:42 PM
Hi SC, You are correct that epoxy is the wrong material. 3-M 5200 comes to mind first and you might look at boat deck caulking , like butal rubber. Then there are the post catalyzed urethane's . When we produce something like your bench we use small dental burrs and completely eat out-smooth out all cracks . Sometimes this takes more than a few days of labor but we don't depend on any filler that may future fail. hope this helps Rob
Rob, thanks for the advice. A friend of mine that's a sign builder indicated that he used sandblasting to knock off the sharp edges on his signs, but unfortunately that is not an option due to the fact that I've already applied an oil finish and cleaning the sand out of the checks would be problematic.
I'll give the burrs a try.
Blast with walnuts.
A waterfall coffee table today. Claro walnut. Rob
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/35190/DSCN1368.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1488935569)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/35190/DSCN1367.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1488935692)
Oh my, that is fine.
Nice Rob, how did you attach the legs to the top? bg
Bill, I used small tenons and the 2X2 alignment blocks. The grain in the blocks has the same orientation as the slab. A couple of screws, epoxy and walnut flour. Rob