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DT 466 getting harder to start

Started by shinnlinger, July 22, 2012, 08:48:15 AM

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shinnlinger

Hi,

Neighbor lent me his beater loadstar dumper to move dirt on my farm.  It seems to run fine and start easily once it is going but you have to crank on it quite a bit to get it to start at the beginning of the day, even if it only sat overnight. 

Neighbor says it has been getting worse.  It does not have glow plugs but you can see white smoke coming out of the stack as soon as you turn it over.  Usually you have to crank it 30+ seconds at a pop 3 or 4X (sometimes more) to get her to run.

Any suggestions?
Shinnlinger
Woodshop teacher, pasture raised chicken farmer
34 horse kubota L-2850, Turner Band Mill, '84 F-600,
living in self-built/milled timberframe home

snowstorm

white smoke starts hard in warm weather. could be low compression. worn out or broken rings

shinnlinger

Hmmm. Well anything is possible but this unit supposedly has a low mile engine in but who knows?
Shinnlinger
Woodshop teacher, pasture raised chicken farmer
34 horse kubota L-2850, Turner Band Mill, '84 F-600,
living in self-built/milled timberframe home

Tim L

Slight air leak in the fuel line or weak pump losing prime ?
Do the best you can and don't look back

tractormanNwv

Any of the above will give starting problems,what year model is it? is the injector pump an inline? or is it a rotary style? It should have ( most do ) a manual fuel pump or primer on the left side just behind the injector pump, next time before you try to start it, give it a few pumps and see if if it is easy to pump...if so, fuel has bled off.

Jim

scsmith42

There is a pot metal disc inside of some models of injector pump on the DT466's that tends to break, and what you describe are the symptons.

The good pump is inline with all of the injection lines coming out of the top in a straight line.

The problem pump (American Bosch?) has a square-ish plate on top with the injection lines coming out the top of the pump in a circle.
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shinnlinger

I will check out the pump.  Here is some new info.   According to the owner It does Not burn any oil and on a whim we plugged it in 5 minutes or so before starting the last two days and it fired right up even though it was no colder than mid 50's at night. 
Might be a mute point because today I managed to crack the frame, so we might deal with that before we mess more with the motor
Thanks for the replies.
Dave
Shinnlinger
Woodshop teacher, pasture raised chicken farmer
34 horse kubota L-2850, Turner Band Mill, '84 F-600,
living in self-built/milled timberframe home

Clam77

If it won't fire too good normally and then fired right up after it'd been plugged in for a while then you have low compression.  The white smoke at startup would be the oil that's sucked up past the rings into the cylinders after it's been sitting for a while from whatever vacuum's left.

Someone may have put the rings in wrong (upside down or in the wrong order) when they rebuilt the engine or like snowstorn said they could just be worn out or broken - it happens. 

I've seen several big diesels do this in construction equipment - good ring job fixes them.
Andy

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Gary60

What year is the DT466? Mechanical or electronic injectors?
It sounds like it has electronic injectors, like a 7.3 DI Navister which was popular in Fords from 94-1/2 to 2003.

If it's electronic the injectors wear and can't exhaust the high pressure oil which causes hard starting and poor drivability when it cold.

There is a simple cheap bandaid fix that works, I've done it.

Watch these videos and just like he says in one of the videos you buy the shim kit off ebay

I don't even remove the injector from the engine when I do these.

The video is on a Ford 7.3 but DT466 electronic injectors are identical to the Ford, even some Cats use the same injectors.

I've been a Diesel mechanic for 40 years 

https://youtu.be/79mubSD18Kw


https://youtu.be/0jiJaZHTdRE



Southside

If he is still working on getting it started then I would say it's a lost cause....8 1/2 years is a long time to chase down a gremlin.  ;D
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Sedgehammer

Necessity is the engine of drive

mike_belben

If you like strippin the ring lands off the first piston that inhales the whole squirt, then ether is happy to help. 


On those old 466B and C engines the inline pump is a bosch MW.  Hard starts are probably a rotted head gasket letting some coolant in that has to be expelled first... Composite doesnt last forever, it degrades to nothing.   Next in line is the primer pump plunger seals will get old and drainback fuel out of the low pressure galley so some cranking is required to recharge the galley pressure.  



They all suffer from low power by now because that metal boost signal line has oddball ferrule seals that leak, so the AFC diaphragm never sees enough pressure to free up the rack travel to give the fuel thats called for.  A new rubber signal line on some npt barbs is all thats needed to fix it. 


466 with Bosch MW uses the RQV governor,  which has a special start procedure that works excellent.  Before starting hold it to the floor then crank and let off when it fires.  The governor engages an internal pump timing retard setting that starts much easier.  Its the only one i know of with that. Also very easy to change the static timing. If they were a 12mm plunger it woulda been a very high power engine. 
Praise The Lord

Sedgehammer

Used it since I was  kid. had diesels my entire life. farm tractors, farm trucks, dump trucks, semi trucks, pickup trucks. tractor pulled and used it to warm engines up solely on it till they'd fire on diesel. never had an issue. works wonders on old tired, worn out, cold blooded engines.

Necessity is the engine of drive

mike_belben

Ive emptied a case or two myself.  But i also worked at a diesel shop and the first cold snap of the season always brings in stripped off rings.  


Ether is much much safer if fogged in by a partner while cranking than hosing the manifold then trying to start.
Praise The Lord

firefighter ontheside

Does it have glow plugs like the 7.3 powerstroke(DT444)?  It sounds just like my truck when the glow plug relay was failing.  It would not start unless I had it plugged in, even on warm days.
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btulloh

Quote from: Southside on March 26, 2021, 12:05:32 AM
If he is still working on getting it started then I would say it's a lost cause....8 1/2 years is a long time to chase down a gremlin.  ;D
Sure is. Lots of fresh input for this old thread though. Retroactive help.  :D
HM126

mike_belben

If it helps someone in the future who doesnt have to waste 3 days waiting for a fresh reply to the same problem, why not?  Threads last 20 years here its not like they sour. 


Dt466 does not have glow plugs.   Block heater and the governors unique injection timing retard mode that i described are its cold start assistants. 
Praise The Lord

Sedgehammer

Quote from: mike_belben on March 26, 2021, 10:25:18 AM
Ive emptied a case or two myself.  But i also worked at a diesel shop and the first cold snap of the season always brings in stripped off rings.  


Ether is much much safer if fogged in by a partner while cranking than hosing the manifold then trying to start.
WD-40 works also. Not as hot, but still hot enough most cases.
Necessity is the engine of drive

mike_belben

Have done that in a pinch a few times too
Praise The Lord

Nebraska

Never tried WD 40, I'll try to store that nugget away. Nothing like new old thread treasure.... :)

sawguy21

Be careful with ether, if ignited by the glow plug hard starting will be the least of the problems.
old age and treachery will always overcome youth and enthusiasm

Sedgehammer

Quote from: sawguy21 on March 27, 2021, 10:12:58 PM
Be careful with ether, if ignited by the glow plug hard starting will be the least of the problems.
If using it in an engine with a heating type element of any sort, the engine is turning over before you 'fog' it in as @mike_belben mentioned. If an engine doesn't have any type of heating element, then one can spray it in before cranking, but just enough cannot be expressed enough here.
Necessity is the engine of drive

Gary_C

It's amazing how this old thread brought up so many good memories of multiple International engines including the DT 466 which has been called a Legend. 
Building The Legendary Navistar DT466

THE INTERNATIONAL/NAVISTAR DT466

It's also ironic the post that brought up this old topic is not about the inline 6 cylinder DT 466 but the V-8 T444E which is better known as the 7.3 Powerstroke. The commonality is the later versions (1995 and up) of the DT 466 had a new designed head and the HEUI injectors developed in conjunction with Cat that were also used in the 7.3 Powerstrokes.

What makes it even more interesting to me is my still remaining connection with many of these IH/Navistar  and now Case/IH engines. I still have an older Case 904 cid engine that was the base engine for the upgraded engines in the Magnum series of tractors. I also have a DT 466 in a 2+2 tractor, a D436 non turbo engine that needs new sleeves from a IH 1440 combine that was replaced with a newer rebuilt DT 414 from a IH 960 combine  and a DT 414 in a 1086 that has T/A and tire fluid problems. None of these engines are currently operational and are old retired man projects on the shelf.  ;D
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

mike_belben

After the DT466 A, B and C models came the "NGD" for new generation diesel.  It used a 12mm bosch P (or maybe an A? Cant recall) injection pump mounted up higher than the prior MW pump, and the intake goes into the head.  That is 95-97 im fairly certain, then was replaced by the DT466E.  The NGD is extremely good but south america has consumed most of them.



The 466C and older has a 3/8 valve stem and ran only an oil deflector shield because its a low pressure drizzle system..  The NGD has a high flow oil system to the valvetrain and switched to oil seals then to smaller, lighter valve stems. But there must have been an early run of 3/8 stems in the NGD because every aftermarket gasket kit for any 466 will come with shields and seals for 3/8 stem.  If you put seals on a 466C or earlier it will starve the valves until they eat through the guide, into the head casting, and into the tops of the bore liners and piston relief pocket.  It took under 4000 miles on a brand new out of frame for this to happen to me.  



New oem headbolts are NLA and foreign ones suck so dont lose your oem headbolts.  No one makes alloy stud kits that will last for road miles.. Theyre sled puller stuff thats junk after a season or two.
Praise The Lord

farmfromkansas

I had an old 986 farm tractor with the 466 engine, it started up easily, even when pretty cold.  Think it was a 81 model.  Engine was great, but you could not shift gears without grinding.
Most everything I enjoy doing turns out to be work

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