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How do I estimate costs

Started by jessepettengill, December 16, 2020, 08:53:39 AM

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jessepettengill

You all gave such great information on my first question here, that I decided to ask another!  I can't believe this is free!

So, being brand new to the sawyering game, and wanting to assemble timber frame kits, what would be your suggestion be on pricing beams.  I am particularly curious about the gulf in pricing from getting wood brought to be from a local logger, and having them cut into useable posts and beams for construction.  I have a lot of questions.

I know wood straight off the trucks is sometimes sold by a board foot formula, and sometimes sold by the ton, right?  Why the difference?  

How specific can you be with a logger about the dimensions of wood you want (12 inches on the small end, 24 feet long, or whatever)?

Is there a standard formula for estimating how many logs in a load?

Is there a place I can go to to get wholesale log rates by species?  Is there anything I need to understand when reading them?

Is there anything I am not asking? (Don't know what I don't know)

Thanks in advance you all.

Kindly
JP

nativewolf

Well, first I think you have more of a sawing type question, maybe @Southside can move the thread over to that section where it might get more attention and better answers.  From my own point of view you can specify anything you want. 

Typically commodity type woods can be bought by the ton, say pine logs or spruce logs or pallet grade hardwood logs.  Anything else and the logger is usually getting bent over, so to speak, by the mills.  

So bdft calculations are most typical in the higher grade lumbers where specific size limits really matter (saw quartersaw white oak logs, or long bridge timbers even).  

Ask a logger what he's most comfortable using, ask them if they can select and set aside logs meeting your spec, offer cash and offer to accept logs whenever they can drop them off.  Make it easy on them and the logs will come.  Milling long beams requires equipment, they are so heavy and cumbersome that you'll want something with forks and hydraulics for the sawmill if you can afford that.  But again, you'll get more pertinent answers from the sawing oriented folk.   Good luck and enjoy.
Liking Walnut

Bandmill Bandit

Welcome to the forum and all good questions for a starter.

In Alberta I buy logs by the tonne or by the cubic metre volume. I like the cubic metre best as there is no consideration required for moisture content.

As far as pricing goes your competition is other sawyers producing similar product. The big mills don't generally cut these specialty type products. so the price you want is the price that the market will support for the quality of the product you produce and you should not base that on the BF price for lumber as global commodity price currently suggests.

You will need to learn the sawing techniques to produce various kinds of lumber;
Boxed Heart and its use in your kits.
Free of Heart
Flat sawn
1/4 sawn
Mill run and how to sort it as per above
and I am probably missing a few

#1 & #2 grades sawn for the specific purpose of timber frame building is valuable lumber! You can't buy it Home Depot or Lowes as a rule. IF you can find a location that does offer it, it will be because that store has an arrangement with a local sawyer and it won't be cheap.

I just quoted a 10' foot ceiling 16'x24' shed/shop for just the 6x8, 6x6, 4x6, & 4x8 and it worked out to about $1.70 per BF or $62 per 12', 6"x6". The client said I was 12 cents lower than the other 2 he got quotes from my competition. That is local market and that is in the mid range of the guys that cut these products locally.      

 
Skilled Master Sawyer. "Skilled labour don't come cheap. Cheap labour dont come skilled!
2018 F150 FX4, Husqvarna 340, 2 Logright 36 inch cant hooks and a bunch of stuff I built myself

mike_belben

Take your time.  Im sure there are a million things you want to do.. But when youre green theres a million ways to get taken.  Dont learn them all the first year!   :D


Focus on one, maybe 2 parts at a time for a while..maybe getting logs and sawing them for best value or whatever it is.. and just absorb as much peripheral info as you can during the time while you work toward mastering those focal points.  Because its just too dang much to learn all at once.  


Keep moving on to your next blindspots and eventually youl shed that green-ness.  Timber is an age old shrewd business and the veterans can smell green through the phone in 2 seconds.  Theyll have no trouble taking your profit margin if you let em so like i said, go slow. If its a good deal today itll be a good one tomorrow after youve thought it over and made some calls.  Dont lunge too fast.  If you miss the deal, so what.  Theres a hundred more youll miss that wont kill ya either.   Impulsiveness is a detriment in business.  Control yourself.  And dont make debts you cant cover for 100% certain.  
Praise The Lord

SawyerTed

Pricing needs to be determined by your costs, your desired profit (what you are willing to work for) and what the market will support. 

It's pretty easy to figure out what it costs to produce X amount of lumber - logs, blades, fuel, supplies, labor, maintenance, repairs, insurance, hired help etc. I buy logs by the board foot because I'm selecting logs rather than buying by the load. 

What requires market research is determining if you are willing to work for the difference between your costs and what the market will support. 

I went through all of this three years ago and determined I could be competitive but not the cheapest around.  I went through it all again a few months ago and determined I needed to adjust my business model because on some products I am not willing to work for a slim margin.  Other products are more profitable and those need to be my focus.  
Woodmizer LT50, WM BMS 250, WM BMT 250, Kubota MX5100, IH McCormick Farmall 140, Husqvarna 372XP, Husqvarna 455 Rancher

Jim_Rogers

Being that you're in Maine, most likely you'll be buying logs by the bdft using the international log scale rule or ruler. But that will be between you and your logger.

The difference is usually regional. I'm not sure if the loggers in Maine sell by the ton or not. But usually saw logs are by the bdft. And if I'm wrong, I'm sure that some loggers/sawmills, in Maine will correct me. I think that pulp is usually by the ton.
You can specify the size you want, but asking for 24' logs that are straight, and good quality is going to bring a premium over log run (which means everything off the log or tree stump).
Learning which log from a tree will make a good timber and which should be cut into boards can take some experience or guidance from another sawyer.

If you're buying by the bdft in log form then there is no need to worry about how many logs are in a load. Small logs will mean many in the load. Larger logs means there will be fewer but usually better grade and/or quality.

There is a listing put out, called sawlog bulletin. You may need to do a google search for it. I'm not sure if it is still being published.

Contact your local county forester for your area and start talking with me. He will be able to educate you about your local area/supplier/loggers/prices.

Good luck with your research.

Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

jessepettengill

Quote from: Bandmill Bandit on December 16, 2020, 12:34:06 PM
Welcome to the forum and all good questions for a starter.

In Alberta I buy logs by the tonne or by the cubic metre volume. I like the cubic metre best as there is no consideration required for moisture content.

As far as pricing goes your competition is other sawyers producing similar product. The big mills don't generally cut these specialty type products. so the price you want is the price that the market will support for the quality of the product you produce and you should not base that on the BF price for lumber as global commodity price currently suggests.

You will need to learn the sawing techniques to produce various kinds of lumber;
Boxed Heart and its use in your kits.
Free of Heart
Flat sawn
1/4 sawn
Mill run and how to sort it as per above
and I am probably missing a few

#1 & #2 grades sawn for the specific purpose of timber frame building is valuable lumber! You can't buy it Home Depot or Lowes as a rule. IF you can find a location that does offer it, it will be because that store has an arrangement with a local sawyer and it won't be cheap.

I just quoted a 10' foot ceiling 16'x24' shed/shop for just the 6x8, 6x6, 4x6, & 4x8 and it worked out to about $1.70 per BF or $62 per 12', 6"x6". The client said I was 12 cents lower than the other 2 he got quotes from my competition. That is local market and that is in the mid range of the guys that cut these products locally.      


Googling all those terms now!  And is the bottom example you gave in Canadian?

jessepettengill

Quote from: mike_belben on December 16, 2020, 03:42:56 PM
Take your time.  Im sure there are a million things you want to do.. But when youre green theres a million ways to get taken.  Dont learn them all the first year!   :D


Focus on one, maybe 2 parts at a time for a while..maybe getting logs and sawing them for best value or whatever it is.. and just absorb as much peripheral info as you can during the time while you work toward mastering those focal points.  Because its just too dang much to learn all at once.  


Keep moving on to your next blindspots and eventually youl shed that green-ness.  Timber is an age old shrewd business and the veterans can smell green through the phone in 2 seconds.  Theyll have no trouble taking your profit margin if you let em so like i said, go slow. If its a good deal today itll be a good one tomorrow after youve thought it over and made some calls.  Dont lunge too fast.  If you miss the deal, so what.  Theres a hundred more youll miss that wont kill ya either.   Impulsiveness is a detriment in business.  Control yourself.  And dont make debts you cant cover for 100% certain.  
Solid advice!  I feel like jumping in with both feet--I am honest, I haven't been excited about a career move in a while.

Bandmill Bandit

Yes it is but I've been told timber prices are higher out in eastern Canada by about 10% to 15% than they are here right now. Lumber/ pricing is regional to some extent but it generally not real far apart.  
Skilled Master Sawyer. "Skilled labour don't come cheap. Cheap labour dont come skilled!
2018 F150 FX4, Husqvarna 340, 2 Logright 36 inch cant hooks and a bunch of stuff I built myself

jessepettengill

Jim, I wrote another post in response, but I think it disappeared.  Where do I go about getting an education on which logs make the best timbers vs. boards?

RangeSawing

My personal experience (in MN) has been as follows. I put an ad on Craigslist looking for loggers. I had a great response. One guy was exceptionally crude and difficult to deal with. I was scolded harshly for trying to purchase Red Pine by the foot, and than again when I had to do the formula to convert it to cords. I used the generalization of 500 bd ft to a cord, to come up with my price by the cord. He was very upset that I used 500 bd ft. He was a pain and I didn't do business with him. Side story he would only sell me birch and ash, 8" and smaller for a premium, wanted a ton more for the 8"+ that I specified. Anyway, others have worked out phenomenally with one individual slashing the price I offered DOWN to what he felt was fair (great guy). Guess it depends on the person and place. I got into selective logging this year to feed my mill and now I cut to whatever I want/need. Hope this helped a little,
-RangeSawing
I don't know much, but what I do know, I'm not very good at!

Bandmill Bandit

There is a lot of very good and through info here on the site and some exceptional timber frame builders that have offered seminars in the past. (correct me if I am wrong Jim. Wasn't that you?) Keep browsing the site and asking the questions as thye arise for you. DON'T get in a rush! Thats the quickest way to end up broker than buying a mill will do to your pocket book. 

You will reach a point where you will look at a standing tree and you will see beams timbers, and the dimensional lumber as well as fireplace mantles and other live edge material for unique features in your building projects. 

Your wife and kids will come to hate that cause every tree tends to get viewed through the lens of your chain saw and saw mill. 

The ugliest trees make some of the prettiest lumber!!              
Skilled Master Sawyer. "Skilled labour don't come cheap. Cheap labour dont come skilled!
2018 F150 FX4, Husqvarna 340, 2 Logright 36 inch cant hooks and a bunch of stuff I built myself

Jim_Rogers

Quote from: jessepettengill on December 16, 2020, 07:51:09 PM
Jim, I wrote another post in response, but I think it disappeared.  Where do I go about getting an education on which logs make the best timbers vs. boards?
Well, as you know we can all saw a 2x4 with a 3" knot in it. but it will most likely fail, depending on how it's used.
So, in order to understand what timber you can make out of a log, you may need to understand grading of timbers. I would suggest you buy a NELMA grade book, and learn grade #2. this is the usual standard required for a timber to be used in timber framing. this grade rule will give you knot sizes and other factors such as slope of grain. Upper logs from a tree that have large red knots usually are used for boards as the log is smaller and therefore can't make a big timber. So that means a small timber with a big knot. which can be a "no-go" situation. (2x4 with 3" knot type of thing). 
Most loggers will make cuts in the tree to make straight logs. that means the bend in the tree has been removed and if so the slope of grain should be somewhat straight. 
Large lower logs from a tree, that has large knots can be used in a timber frame as a sill timber, if the sill timber is directly supported by a continuous foundation.
Ross from Woodmizer in Maine had a saying, which was "every log has a home, you just need to find the right home for it."
I would suggest you spend some time with an experienced sawyer talking over these points and learning from his advice. 
Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

richhiway

Woodmizer LT 40
New Holland 35 hp tractor
Stihl Chainsaws
Ford 340 Backhoe

Ricker

Being from Maine, Jim Rogers was spot on with his statement on buying logs.  You find a logger willing to set specific size logs aside until he has a truckload of those requested sizes will likely cost you more per bdft.  Separating is a pain in the tail and the extra pile in the landing takes up space and you have to work around them.

Haleiwa

My first advice would be to saw out and build a small project of your own first, maybe a shed for your mill.  Make some expensive firewood because there is a big knot where you need a tenon, or your nice post drew crooked after you got it sized.  Having a real experience will give you a very different perspective,  and help you know what you do not know.  It may delay your plans but it will be worth it. 
Socialism is people pretending to work while the government pretends to pay them.  Mike Huckabee

jessepettengill

That sounds wise, and that is the plan.  My two first structures will be the saw mill pavillion, and my workshop.  The workshop will be two story 24X32, I figure if I can manage that in a reasonable way I have earned a shingle to at least build small barns and garages.  :-)

Kindly
JP

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