The Forestry Forum is sponsored in part by:

iDRY Vacuum Kilns


Forestry Forum
Sponsored by:


TimberKing Sawmills



Toll Free 1-800-582-0470

LogRite Tools



Norwood Industries Inc.




Your source for Portable Sawmills, Edgers, Resaws, Sharpeners, Setters, Bandsaw Blades and Sawmill Parts

EZ Boardwalk Sawmills. More Saw For Less Money!

STIHLDealers.com sponsored by Northeast STIHL


Woodland Sawmills

Peterson Swingmills

 KASCO SharpTech WoodMaxx Blades

Turbosawmill

Sawmill Exchange

Michigan Firewood, your BRUTE FORCE Authorized Dealer

Baker Products

ECHO-Bearcat

iDRY Wood Lumber Vacuum Drying for everyon

Nyle Kiln Dry Systems

Chainsawr, The Worlds Largest Inventory of Chainsaw Parts

Smith Sawmill Service



Author Topic: Planting During Drought  (Read 495 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline DonW

  • Full Member x2
  • ***
  • Posts: 183
  • Location: Western Slope Colorado
    • Share Post
Planting During Drought
« on: April 02, 2021, 10:17:51 AM »
in May I will plant 120 conifers, spruce and pine, which will be a first for me at such a scale so I would appreciate any advise on initially setting the trees are in the ground, particularly because the conditions will not be ideal since it is in the midst of a multi year drought with poor outlook for the coming year.
The spot is on a north oriented slope where I've noticed other pines or spruce getting a foothold among a predominance of Juniper.

Offline BradMarks

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 843
  • Location: Oregon
  • Gender: Male
  • Foresters are TREE-mendous
    • Share Post
    • Pacforest Supply
Re: Planting During Drought
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2021, 11:26:20 AM »
Best thing you can do is remove competing vegetation from your individual planting spot(s).  Bare soil holds more moisture. A grass or forb cover will suck the moisture from the soil. Polymer additives in the planting hole, which retain moisture, is another technique, but not too much to cause heaving. For me, I stick to good scalping of the veg.

Offline Southside

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 8120
  • Age: 48
  • Location: Wilsons (Dinwiddie County), VA
  • Gender: Male
  • Have a plan to saw every log you meet.
    • Share Post
    • White Oak Meadows
Re: Planting During Drought
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2021, 01:14:37 PM »
Respectfully I am going to disagree with you on that. Bare soil gets hotter, dries out more, and invites weeds. 

On the other hand soil covered with a mulch product, chips, dead grass, etc will keep the soil cooler, hold more moisture, reduce erosion, and capture and hold any rain that does fall. 
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

Offline DonW

  • Full Member x2
  • ***
  • Posts: 183
  • Location: Western Slope Colorado
    • Share Post
Re: Planting During Drought
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2021, 01:49:18 PM »
Respectfully I am going to disagree with you on that. Bare soil gets hotter, dries out more, and invites weeds.

On the other hand soil covered with a mulch product, chips, dead grass, etc will keep the soil cooler, hold more moisture, reduce erosion, and capture and hold any rain that does fall.
My impression is that this is a consensus view. On the other hand the consensus seems to be geographically and demographically centered and I am located far from the fringes in the mountain/dessert so it was interesting to get this other view, a view I can see some justification in. Where water is scarce, competition can better be minimized. 
Another pointed question I have, is it silly to ask if these seedlings require a watering at planting?

Offline BradMarks

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 843
  • Location: Oregon
  • Gender: Male
  • Foresters are TREE-mendous
    • Share Post
    • Pacforest Supply
Re: Planting During Drought
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2021, 01:51:23 PM »
Of course we can disagree ;D  My reference was only the comparison to bare ground versus that with vegetation. Scalping a small area just enough to plant the tree will not get it done. It should/must be large enough to eliminate competition. Mulching is a great idea, using mats, or chips as mentioned can work, just more costly and time consuming. I would shy away from sawdust, wood shavings, as they deplete soil nitrogen as it decomposes. We own "drought" property, full on east slope pumice soil that loses moisture in a hurry. Whatever snow melt we get to replenish the moisture is it. Our seedling survival has been pretty good. Might add I was a reforestation contractor for 20 years in a prior life. 

Offline DonW

  • Full Member x2
  • ***
  • Posts: 183
  • Location: Western Slope Colorado
    • Share Post
Re: Planting During Drought
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2021, 02:50:14 PM »
Of course we can disagree ;D  My reference was only the comparison to bare ground versus that with vegetation. Scalping a small area just enough to plant the tree will not get it done. It should/must be large enough to eliminate competition. Mulching is a great idea, using mats, or chips as mentioned can work, just more costly and time consuming. I would shy away from sawdust, wood shavings, as they deplete soil nitrogen as it decomposes. We own "drought" property, full on east slope pumice soil that loses moisture in a hurry. Whatever snow melt we get to replenish the moisture is it. Our seedling survival has been pretty good. Might add I was a reforestation contractor for 20 years in a prior life.

A bit similar, soil, orientation, water and so on and so on. In particular encouraging to read of pretty good survival. To be honest I'd be pleased with fifty percent up to a decent age.

Offline Southside

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 8120
  • Age: 48
  • Location: Wilsons (Dinwiddie County), VA
  • Gender: Male
  • Have a plan to saw every log you meet.
    • Share Post
    • White Oak Meadows
Re: Planting During Drought
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2021, 03:44:00 PM »
The drier you are the more critical it becomes. Look at what happens to over grazed dry ranch land in the high desert, it becomes sage. 
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

Offline clearcut

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 560
  • Location: Garden Valley CA
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: Planting During Drought
« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2021, 04:22:53 PM »
University of California has recently released ( Press Release )


Quote
Reforestation Practices for Conifers in California, a practical manual for landowners and managers that explains the why, where, who, when, what, and how of getting sustainable forests back into California's diverse landscape. It is available now for immediate viewing and downloading for free on the Forest Vegetation Management Conference's website: www.fvmc.org. 

May have some useful ideas. 

Offline DonW

  • Full Member x2
  • ***
  • Posts: 183
  • Location: Western Slope Colorado
    • Share Post
Re: Planting During Drought
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2021, 05:33:44 PM »
University of California has recently released ( Press Release )


Quote
Reforestation Practices for Conifers in California, a practical manual for landowners and managers that explains the why, where, who, when, what, and how of getting sustainable forests back into California's diverse landscape. It is available now for immediate viewing and downloading for free on the Forest Vegetation Management Conference's website: www.fvmc.org.

May have some useful ideas.

I think so, like getting ahold of a hoedad.
Thank you for the reference.

Offline BaldBob

  • Forester
  • *
  • Posts: 457
  • Age: 80
  • Location: Lacey,WA
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: Planting During Drought
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2021, 12:33:31 AM »
If at all possible plant your trees immediately (as in less than a week) after the snow is off and the ground is no longer frozen. If there are stumps or down logs, plant on their N or E side so the actual planting site is exposed to less direct sun. On doughty sites, grasses and shrubs are far more efficient in taking moisture out of the soil than is direct solar radiation - especially on N slopes. So reducing  competitive vegetation is critical. Given that the area is a fairly dry, even in a non drought period, it is super critical that your planting stock comes from the same seed zone and elevation as the planting site. Watering that many trees after planting is impractical, but it is imperative that the roots be kept moist right up to actual planting. If they are allowed to dry out, you are essentially  planting dead seedlings so avoid planting in hot windy conditions - especially if planting bare root stock. 

Good luck.

Offline DonW

  • Full Member x2
  • ***
  • Posts: 183
  • Location: Western Slope Colorado
    • Share Post
Re: Planting During Drought
« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2021, 02:56:01 PM »
Thank you for your detailed instruction B.B. very helpful to read it indeed. I'm not sure what it indicates entirely but since a few have pointed to a need for clearing vegetation I thought to make the condition more clear. Though the slopes, fairly steep in fact, are well wooded with Rocky Mountain Juniper, (Juniperus scopulorum) stands on what I'd call rocky ground, there really is little vegetation besides a few sagebrush, a bit of moss now and then a cactus or two. I don't know if this raises any particular points that need consideration in addition to what's been brought up. I will say that the sparce pine and spruce growth that's there between the Juniper looks like it struggles, though in comparison with other sections more exposed it's a surprise noticing the shear number of non-juniper conifers growing in that particular place.

Offline BaldBob

  • Forester
  • *
  • Posts: 457
  • Age: 80
  • Location: Lacey,WA
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: Planting During Drought
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2021, 04:49:35 AM »
Your further description tells me it's an even more droughty than I suspected. Juniper can over time almost totally dominate sites like you describe. That species is very efficient at sucking up the available moisture.  If you want to be reasonably successful establishing much PP & DF, you will need to kill some of the Juniper.

Offline DonW

  • Full Member x2
  • ***
  • Posts: 183
  • Location: Western Slope Colorado
    • Share Post
Re: Planting During Drought
« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2021, 08:29:36 AM »
So it would be a misconception to regard the juniper as pioneer that would give way as pines grew to shade them out?

Offline BradMarks

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 843
  • Location: Oregon
  • Gender: Male
  • Foresters are TREE-mendous
    • Share Post
    • Pacforest Supply
Re: Planting During Drought
« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2021, 11:26:29 AM »
DonW:  You would be better to fell a juniper and plant a tree in amongst the branches/bole of the juniper (as long as it is stabilized).  You have then eliminated the moisture drain(juniper), provided some shade for the seedling, and have made it difficult for any deer to get at the seedling. I have been involved in scenarios like that. A lot of work, yes.  You mentioned steep, how steep?  To me, less than 40% is not that steep.

Offline BradMarks

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 843
  • Location: Oregon
  • Gender: Male
  • Foresters are TREE-mendous
    • Share Post
    • Pacforest Supply
Re: Planting During Drought
« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2021, 11:32:38 AM »
Forgot to say that seedlings we have planted on our pumice ground were bare roots with 12" length. I think the root length actually helped as it required a deep hole. We shovel planted. Often times available container stock will be only an 8" plug or shorter.  Advantage with container stock is better root/top ratio, with roots ready to grow. Disadvantage is not planting deep enough to stay in the moisture zone. 

Offline DonW

  • Full Member x2
  • ***
  • Posts: 183
  • Location: Western Slope Colorado
    • Share Post
Re: Planting During Drought
« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2021, 08:29:32 PM »
Thank you Brad, that gives me a concrete plan of action. Very helpful, novice that I'm in these things. Because my first choice of bare root stock was not available I chose for what's called Large Tube, (I can only imagine it) and am counting on this form providing added protection from foragers in a way this bole will do.

I anticipate planting with a hoe- like implement to loosen somewhat and get in amongst  rocks, and shovel for what I guess is a fairly long root.

After spending some time with my boots on that ground, as they say it, yesterday evening I took a longer perspective and can make a guess that the slope is in the 40 - 45 degree range. I think it accounts for the lack of vegitation since as the ground flattens it is blanketed with new growth. It's coming into a real pleasant time here now through June. 

Offline BaldBob

  • Forester
  • *
  • Posts: 457
  • Age: 80
  • Location: Lacey,WA
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: Planting During Drought
« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2021, 04:33:29 AM »
40-45 degree range or 40-45% range? Big difference. 45 degrees is 100%  and extremely difficult to walk on. 40-45% is considered fairly steep and is not ground most people would consider using ground based equipment on.
Juniper does not fall in the category of a pioneer species  even though it isn't especially shade tolerant. On dry sites where it is present it is extremely rare for other species to establish within an individual juniper's area of influence and end up overtopping the juniper.  In other words if juniper is the first tree species to occupy a site it will continue to dominate the area it occupies until something (fire, man's activities) kills it.
Brad Marks advice is dead on.

Offline DonW

  • Full Member x2
  • ***
  • Posts: 183
  • Location: Western Slope Colorado
    • Share Post
Re: Planting During Drought
« Reply #17 on: April 06, 2021, 10:25:59 AM »
This is all very educational for me. Remember I am used to a completely different environment coming from Holland where almost the opposite conditions occur. Rather than lack of water it is an over abundance and something like the grade of the land is an irrelevance since much of the land is reclaimed sea bottom. I lived on a mound built up by medieval monks to keep their feet dry  , so thanks for setting me straight on things. 

My determination for the grade came by imagining a horizontal line at the base of the hollow, then a point at the top of the ridge with a line from creek to ridge representing the angle of the rise. I can tell you this, no machine would be operating on this terrain.

 Well I can always use a good excuse for chopping trees, it looks like I've got it with the added benefit that it'll give me some fencing and even potential building material, if not firewood for next year. Only problem is with no horse, getting the wood out. 

Offline BradMarks

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 843
  • Location: Oregon
  • Gender: Male
  • Foresters are TREE-mendous
    • Share Post
    • Pacforest Supply
Re: Planting During Drought
« Reply #18 on: April 06, 2021, 11:45:47 AM »
Is it labor of love or love of labor ;D

Offline BrandonTN

  • Full Member x2
  • ***
  • Posts: 195
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Western NC
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: Planting During Drought
« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2021, 11:52:53 PM »
Control the competing grasses, forbes, etc. Plant in partially covered microclimates such as on northside of debris. Get in the ground as soon as soil temps are 40ish degrees. Avoid j-rooting.

Juniper is growing on same site as spruce?? I would think juniper was at lower elevation. What species of pine?
Forester - Nantahala National Forest
Good to be back home in the Southeast


Share via delicious Share via digg Share via facebook Share via linkedin Share via pinterest Share via reddit Share via stumble Share via tumblr Share via twitter

xx
The Texas Drought

Started by Texas Ranger on The Outdoor Board

0 Replies
1027 Views
Last post September 15, 2011, 09:45:24 PM
by Texas Ranger
xx
Texas Drought

Started by Texas Ranger on General Board

59 Replies
7983 Views
Last post September 19, 2011, 07:27:40 AM
by thecfarm
xx
Drought in Texas

Started by ouachita on General Board

12 Replies
1677 Views
Last post November 17, 2011, 07:58:04 PM
by Woodwalker
xx
The drought is finally over

Started by rmack on Sawmills and Milling

6 Replies
809 Views
Last post August 18, 2013, 08:29:51 AM
by rmack
 


Powered by EzPortal