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Author Topic: Well Pump  (Read 7693 times)

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Offline Raider Bill

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Well Pump
« on: June 17, 2007, 04:29:49 PM »
Howdy guys!

I'm up in Tenn. Got the well in 800ft! 210 ft of 6inch galvinized pipe. Ran 580 ft of 1" purecore to the doublewide and connected that.
I have my temp power pole in and waiting for inspection as well as the perm pole to DW. Hopefully it will be inspected this week.
Anyway my question.

I'm going to need a submeriable pump, 5 gpm right now. Water level is 200 ft from the top so I figure to have about 900 gallons storage in the pipe if I went all the way down near the bottom.
I've heard that because it is so deep I will need a 3 phase pump? I've seen some 220 pumps but will they pump from that deep?
Next issue is when my temp pole is connected I will have to run a temp power wire to the pump about 200 ft until my house is powered up. Any suggestions as to what size wire I'll need? It will be differnt if 3 phase but I'm not sure the power co can of will run that up here.
The wire will be underground so direct burial is a given and once the pump gets power from the house the wire will be removed. I've dug the trend about 1 ft deep.

So I need all you well experts to help me with some guidence. ???

 HAve had fresh trout 3 nights and rib steaks last nite from the farmer.

All in all everything is going ok.

The First 60 some years of childhood is always the hardest.

Offline Engineer

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Re: Well Pump
« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2007, 07:23:53 PM »
Bill,

This is what I do for a living.  ;D 

I guess I don't quite understand your numbers.  I need the depth of the well below grade (800 feet?), the static water level (200 feet below grade?) the distance from the well to the house (200 feet?) and the difference in elevation (approximate) between the wellhead and the house entrance.

Then I can give you a pump spec, right down to the manufacturer and model number.

Online LeeB

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Re: Well Pump
« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2007, 11:27:04 PM »
You don't need three phase. I'm not a water well expert, but I'm guessing about 1 1/2 or 1 3/4 horse. A non pressured surface tank and a seperate pressure tank and pump will help the submersable last a lot longer and you may even get by with a smaller pump as all it will need to do is overcome the pressure to get water to the surface.
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Offline DanG

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Re: Well Pump
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2007, 12:15:53 AM »
I'm a little curious as to why they only put 210' of casing if the water level is currently at 200'.  They didn't leave much room for the water table to drop.  I don't like the idea of hanging the pump below the casing, though it can be done.

I have a 220v single phase 1hp pump at 210', but I have 360' of casing.

Engineer, I may have a question or two when you get Raider_Bill straightened out. ;)
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Offline beenthere

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Re: Well Pump
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2007, 12:28:05 AM »
Around here, well casing is to be at least 50' from the surface (State law I believe), or deeper if needed to get past caves or sand.  I have 75' of 6" casing, in a 320' deep well. The pump is in at 150' from the surface, water level is 90' from the surface.

I didn't follow Raider Bill's numbers, so can't comment to try to help. Sounds like Engineer will be able to give him some tho.
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Offline Greg Cook

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Re: Well Pump
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2007, 12:43:46 AM »
Bill, something got mis-communicated.  You need a 3-WIRE pump, not 3 phase.  Pretty sure there is no such thing as a 3-phase submersible, and you don't want to have to pay to get that kinda power out there in the sticks anyway. A 2-wire pump runs straight off the pressure switch located at your pressure tank. The 3-wire pump has a "control box", pretty much a relay so the two wires from the pressure switch can turn on the 220 pump.  Power to the pump doesn't actually feed through the pressure switch in this situation. Do your research CAREFULLY on sizing your pump.   If you don't have enough pump and have to pull it back out to put in a bigger one, it's one major job (sub. pumps have that foot valve that keeps all the water in the pipe while you try to pull it out.  Pretty heavy from that depth!  Keep it 20 feet or better off the bottom so you dont suck up debris.

DanG, up here (at least in my part of TN) you'll only go through 40 feet-at most-of earth, sandstone, and softer limestone before you hit the hard stuff. State law is 10' beyond to of the bedrock with the casing, then it's just s hole in the rock from there on out. Over in Bill's section, he's probably quite a bit farther till he hits granite.  some older wells here are drilled on 40 to the bottom.  Most of mine have been 200 to 300 feet. Usually sulfur in there too, once we go that deep around here. But it is water, and cows don't mind the sulfur water near as bad as chokin' on dust. (Given a choice, that is  ;)

Greg
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Offline DanG

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Re: Well Pump
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2007, 01:00:24 AM »
Thanks for the info, Greg.  Around here, we got dirt, then sand, then clay and more sand, then maybe a little bit of limestone, then more sand.  That would make a difference.  The wells are usually "blown out" below the casing, so the pump could hang on it when you try to pull it out. :o
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Offline Engineer

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Re: Well Pump
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2007, 08:09:10 AM »
There are certainly three-phase submersibles.  Goulds, for example, has submersibles up to 40 horsepower and will custom manufacture bigger ones.

Greg is probably right, though.  Even for an 800-foot-deep well, you would only need 1- to 2-horsepower.  My preliminary calculations show that with an elevation difference of 850 feet, a total pipe length of 1000 feet, and through a 1" pipe to a pressure tank at 50 psi, you only need a 1.5 hp single phase 3-wire pump.

My own well is 220 feet deep, has water at 60 feet, 20 feet of casing (bedrock is at 14 feet below grade) and I use a 3/4 hp pump.  Where the pump sits in the well makes a difference, too.  You might not want or need it at  the bottom of the well, so a smaller pump will work.  But usually, a submersible pump will be set 15-20 feet above the absolute bottom of the well to prevent sedimentation of the pump.

Offline Raider Bill

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Re: Well Pump
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2007, 09:58:28 AM »
Thanks guys for responding to my rambleings, I was beat up tired when I posted and didn't make sense.

OK here goes,

The well is 800 ft deep. Caseing is down 210 feet where they hit solid rock. I was told the water level came to 200 ft over night between drills. They rated it at 4 gpm

upon further review, I don't believe I can get 3 phase here as I am the end of the run without a major expense. The guy that told me he had one is close to civilization.

Anyway, the well is at the top of my property my house will be within 50 feet of it and at the same evelvation as the well head. The doublewide I have in place to stay while up here building and may also become a permanant guest house is about 500 feet from the well and about 50 ft below the well head in elevation.

Power to the well will come from the house once build but right now I need to get power from my temp pole to the pump in order to run the pump. This distance is around 200 ft. Once house is built this wire will be pulled back up and reused.

I need the pump size, waterline size from pump to top and wire size/type going down the well. The well cap has a goose neck type opening and I believe ths is where you bring the wires/pipe out?

Additionally, I've seen nylon rope attached to pump. This seems like a good idea?

Been.here a week today, I think the sun is hotter here than in florida. I'm whipped.

Pix will be forthcoming

Raider Bill
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Offline Radar67

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Re: Well Pump
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2007, 10:05:04 AM »
Why would you drill a well and not put your pump close to the bottom (ie 20 feet from the bottom)? Engineer, I'm going to use your numbers as an example (I'm not picking on you  :))

A man pays to have a well dug to 220 feet, has water at the 60 foot level, and only drops his pump to 120 feet. Wouldn't having the pump at 200 foot give a person access to more water? I just don't see the logic in drilling a hole and not going all the way down with the pump. Could somebody enlighten me?

Stew
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Offline Engineer

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Re: Well Pump
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2007, 10:19:56 AM »
It's certainly not common leaving the pump up high in the borehole, but I've heard of it being done.  The only reason I can think of is that the soil profile warrants it.  Let's say that you bore a 200 foot deep well, the upper 80-100 feet is common strata, you hit a calcified layer or a rock or shale layer at 100 feet that goes to 120 feet, and the bottom 80 feet of the well is loose river gravels and sand.  If it were my well, I'd save casing costs, drop the casing to 130 feet and put the pump there.  Especially if the static level is high up in the well.    That's just one example.

Bill, I'm going to send you a PM on the pump sizing.  The nylon rope is standard - if there is a problem with the pump and you need to haul it out of the well, you're better off using the rope than using the waterline and having it break on you.  Then your pump heads to the bottom of the well, never to be seen again.

Offline beenthere

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Re: Well Pump
« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2007, 10:24:02 AM »
Radar
That is a good question. I wondered too, but it's worked for 40 years.
I think it has to do with:
- more expense to drop the pump further down,
- faith that there is sufficient water in the aquifer to not draw down below the pump,
- room at the bottom of the well to fill with debris such as might flake off the sides of the un-cased portion (such as sand, and small rock, etc).

Probably depends on the knowledge of the well driller when he sees what he is drilling through, and the part of the country where his experience was obtained.   On mine, the decision was recommended by the well driller after pumping on the water in the well to determine re-charge rate, depth water came up in the well after punching through to water after putting on the last 20' section of drill pipe at 300 feet.  I still keep my fingers crossed that the well pump is at a safe level and the water table doesn't drop (but we are in Wisconsin).
south central Wisconsin
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Offline Radar67

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Re: Well Pump
« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2007, 12:10:11 PM »
I've been wondering about this since my neighbor had his well drilled. He went 160 feet deep with a four inch casing, including the point. The driller said they hit water at 20 feet. They only dropped his pump to 100 feet. Seems a waste to me, if the water table drops below his pump, he has to have the pump redone to the deeper depth.

I'll be drilling (having it done) a well in the next year and wanted to get a better understanding of everything.

Stew
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Offline Fla._Deadheader

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Re: Well Pump
« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2007, 02:40:10 PM »

 If there's enough static pressure to keep the water level way up from the bottom of the hole, there's no reason to go to the bottom with the pump. You get some filtering as the water sets in the hole, you have room for debris, and you just save lots of $$$ if you do keep the pump elevated in the hole.

  The rope is usually if you use plastic tubing from the pump. ???  Yeah, I've seen lots of it. It could also be a safety if you happen to drop the pump and pipe. It won't jerk the wires out of the pump, and it gets expensive to fish that out of the casing, sometimes.
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Offline beenthere

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Re: Well Pump
« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2007, 04:01:33 PM »
Radar
Possibly they didn't want a well pulling surface water from 20'. So they drilled further to 'case' past that surface water and get into a better, cleaner water supply that wasn't surface. Just my thought as to why. 
 FDH explains the other 'wonder' very well for a well  :)
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Offline Radar67

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Re: Well Pump
« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2007, 04:30:40 PM »
Beenthere, my concern is the well is 160 feet deep, the pump is at 100 feet. The first 100 feet was a quoted price for drilling, pump, and installation. Anything over the initial 100 feet was an extra 5 bucks a foot (in this case and extra 300 bucks). If they were only going 100 feet with the pump, couldn't they have stopped at say 120 feet?

I realize there will be some sediment build up in the bottom of the well, but with a completely cased well, there should not be enough to fill the extra 60 feet over say a 20 or 30 year period. My logic is if the well is drilled, you should utilize all that you can of the hole. My well site will be an additional 50 feet higher in elevation than my neighbor's well, so I'm figuring to have to go 200 - 220 feet with my well. I don't guess it is really that big of a deal, just seems like a waste of money to me if the pump is going to be so far away from the bottom of the well.

Stew
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If he can cling to his Blackberry, I can cling to my guns... Me

This will kill you, that will kill you, heck...life will kill you, but you got to live it!

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Offline Furby

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Re: Well Pump
« Reply #16 on: June 18, 2007, 05:13:32 PM »
They may have had to go that deep to get into a good flow rate, but by dropping the pump lower, you are causing the pump to work harder then it needs to be.
The pump may be at it's limit at the 100' mark, but a bigger pump may be better suited to going deeper althougth there may not be any need for the pump to be deeper, because the flow rate of the water is more then enough at a 100'. It just needed a channel to follow.

Offline Tom

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Re: Well Pump
« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2007, 05:16:40 PM »
We have 500 foot wells here in Florida that develop a head that is above ground.  They flow and require a valve to shut them off.  Where the pump is located probably has something to do with the level of water in the pipe and the expected draw-down from pumping.
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Offline Slabs

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Re: Well Pump
« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2007, 06:40:56 PM »
Haven't heard anyone mention the "drawdown level" i.e. the level of the water in the casing/hole with the pump delivering the max.  "That will determine where the pump will be placed.  Go a little deeper, won't have to add pipe later.  Drawdown level will determine the energy necessary to get the water up, not the pump location. The driller most often makes those decisions and also installs the pump.

I've punched down a couple of wells thru surface sand here in the panhandle and had the sand fall down the "hole" with 2 inch jet wells and clog up the screen.  That phenomena may be isolated and local but the casing going 20 feet into the hole brings up a technique that I used in drilling a hole a few feet into the first layer of clay that will accomodate a 4 or 3 inch casing for a 2 inch jet pump, dropping a larger casing down into the clay level, forcing a concrete slurry around the bottom of the casing to seal off the hole from the surface sand.  Had great success with that technique and compare it with the casing being set below the level of rock.

I've also been thinking about the use of a small stainless-steel cable instead of rope for the pump support/service line.

Just my few contributions and thanks to all for others.  It's been a wonderful education on well techniques.
Slabs  : Offloader, slab and sawdust Mexican, mill mechanic and electrician, general flunky.  Woodshop, metal woorking shop and electronics shop.

Offline Engineer

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Re: Well Pump
« Reply #19 on: June 18, 2007, 09:38:21 PM »
I should have mentioned drawdown, but was oversimplifying my answer. 

Drawdown especially needs to be accounted for in a low-yield well.  If you have a 40-gpm well (not too rare in these parts), the typical single-family home only needs 5 gallons per minute for peak demand.  The well driller will set the pump high up in the profile because with such a strong rate of regeneration, there is no need to "waste" extra wire, pipe or even casing on a deeper pump set level.

On the other hand, if you have a low yield well (1-4 gpm qualifies as that, typically for around here), you need to carefully account for drawdown, as peak demand will bring the water level perilously close to running the pump dry until the well recharges.  In many low-yield wells, the driller will go extra deep (while hoping that he doesn't lose the water he's already got) to allow additional borehole or casing storage.  In cases where that's not enough, a large pressure tank sometimes works; in extreme cases, external storage is needed.  As an example, I did a water system design on a low-yield well where the homeowner had to put a 200 gallon storage tank in the basement next to the pressure tank, in order to get sufficient storage.  Just a typical example.

The other side of that example was a subdivision project south of here where the driller went 80 feet and hit a good vein, static level at about 14 feet.  He put the biggest sub he had in the well and ran it full bore for several hours, something like 125 or 150 gallon per minute, and could not get the water level to drop more than an inch or so.  He thought the well was capable of at least three hundred GPM.  That's the biggest non-commercial yield I've seen, and a complete waste for what turned out to be a single mobile home.


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