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Felling notch?

Started by addysdaddy, March 16, 2016, 06:43:12 AM

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addysdaddy

Morning folks. I'll start with I'm not a feller by any means.  :P . I've been slowly clearing pasture land and have run chainsaws most of 35 years on an occasional basis. I always check the lean of every tree and put it where it wants to go with pretty good success. I watched a logging competition on tv the other day and at the end they all lined up and felled all the climbing poles. They all used a (I believe they called it a hum bolt notch which is cut in and angled up from under the horizontal cut) this is what I use but I noticed they only went into the tree about 1/4 the way and cut the rest from the back. I usually go in over 1/2 way with my notch before I do the back cut. I've had a couple of instances of pinch back lately with trees I would have sworn would fall in the direction,I was aiming. Is this because I'm cutting the notch too deeply. I've never tried a plunge cut that folks on here seem to swear by. Any advice and pictures,would be appreciated. I've just retired and would like to be around to enjoy it. Thanx.
Trying to think of something Cool to say kinda defeats the purpose.
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Magicman

Not about your felling notch, but it sounds like you are not using wedges.  I seldom if ever fell a tree without using a couple of plastic wedges.  If nothing else, a wind might come up and ruin my day.
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It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

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addysdaddy

You're correct I'm not much of a wedge person. I never cut on windy days as I'm never in that much of a hurry. Most of the trees I'm working with are in the 12-14 inch range with the occasional 20 inch trunk. 99percent hemlock. So not a lot of room for wedges after the large notch I'm using in the front. Maybe this is why I've never got into using wedges. The folks in the lumberjack competition didn't use wedges but they also had perfectly symmetrical logs / trees to fell. Any advice is appreciated. When using wedges how deep is your front notch? 1/4 of the tree diameter. 1/3  1/2 just looking to get a feel for how the guys who do it for a living go about their business. Thanx.
Trying to think of something Cool to say kinda defeats the purpose.
LT10
Kioti with winch.
Husqvarna fan

square1

Hinge width = 80% of trunk diameter at the location of the cut. 
Oh, and I'm not a pro (anymore).

Andries

My son and I have had an arborist company for about ten years.
An opening notch cut is usually no deeper than 1/4 of the trunk. But there's always exceptions.

There are hundreds of videos on YouTube on felling trees the right way. . . and a bunch that show you how not to do it. Those are the 'fail' themed videos. Instructional, but scare the beejeebers out of me.

There is a very good YouTube series by a feller named Terry Hale.
He's not the typical Paul Bunyan kinda guy, he's more of the college teacher kinda guy.
His videos move along slowly, he explains things from a very thoughtful and factual approach.
He'll get into physics and trig math from time to time, but if you can wade through that, he'll show you the best way to get that tree down safely.
LT40G25
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Texas Ranger

I haven't done any cutting in a couple of decades, but, back then and still now that is a deep notch, not necessary, think you get better control with a 1/4 diameter notch and wedges.  Be on the safe side.
The Ranger, home of Texas Forestry

Magicman

Quote from: addysdaddy on March 16, 2016, 06:43:12 AMI've had a couple of instances of pinch back lately with trees I would have sworn would fall in the direction,I was aiming.
This statement alone proves that you need to always incorporate wedges into your felling activity.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

CJennings

I've been aiming for no more than 1/3 deep with the notch. If I went half way on the leaner junky birch I took down last week I would of been in trouble because it tried real hard to barber chair. I'd be a bit worried about a leaner barber chairing with that deep notch before you even get to the back cut. I like wedges and taking things slow. I'm not a logger and production is a non-issue on my own land.

addysdaddy

 8)Thanx for the responses guys. Thanx ANDRIES for the info on the Terry Hale YouTube videos :D. It makes ,so much sense when someone explains the notch and backcut and the purposes behind them than just to say first you make the notch and then plunge,it before you make the back cut and the tree will jump right into the back of your truck..LOL.. I'm off to buy some wedges at the saw shop tomorrow. Gonna tackle a couple of hemlock In the 20ish inch class I've been hesitant on. Straight with no lean so I didn't see how I could get an advantage anywhere. Taking it slow and careful with a couple of wedges.
Trying to think of something Cool to say kinda defeats the purpose.
LT10
Kioti with winch.
Husqvarna fan

Ianab

I'm with the others.

Generally the notch should only be deep enough to let you form a "hinge", that about 80% of the diameter of the tree. That will be 20-25% of the way in (which lines up with the 1/4 dia notch that others are suggesting).

Now if it's a nice straight tree, cut your notch, get it nice and clean and in the direction you want the tree to fall. This is basically your aiming cut. The tree will try and fall in that direction, but it may need some persuasion. On a reasonably straight tree, a conventional backcut is fine. Get it started and once the saw is in deep enough, stop and tap a wedge in behind the bar. Now 2 things could happen. Ideally when you get to about 10% of the tree left as a "hinge", it will start moving in the falling direction. Pull the saw and walk away. Pick up your wedge off the stump later. OK you didn't need it that time, but you only wasted 5 seconds putting in.

OR you get the back cut done to the hinge position, and the tree either doesn't move, or sits back on the wedge. But no worries, you have the wedge in place, your saw wont be stuck. Pull the saw out and go to work on the wedge, inserting a couple more if you need to. If the tree is perfectly balanced, a few taps and it will start falling. If you have misjudged the lean and it's sitting down hard it may take some more application, but you only have to lift the back of the log maybe a 1/2 inch and that moves the top of the tree 5 or 10 ft. That gets it over the balance point, and away it goes.  The hinge "folds" and controls the direction of fall.

Depending on the style of notch and the type of wood the hinge is likely to snap off at some point, but it should be once the tree is well committed (at 45° or more) Once it's there, gravity is in charge  :D

There are other more advanced cuts, like bore cutting and tapered hinges that you can learn for trickier situations. It's worth learning the bore cutting method for forward leaners as it greatly reduces the chance of barber chairs (splitting the tree in 1/2). But get the conventional / wedges method sorted first as that is generally fine 99% time.

Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

thecfarm

Yep,wedges,most times I don't need them,but easier to use than not use. ;)  I cut into the tree a couple inches on each side. This is into the wood and not bark. Helps out on no barber chair this way. Plan your escape route,clear anything that might trip you.I think 45° from the tree.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

John Mc

Many people cut a really deep notch in the mistaken impression that it helps the tree fall in the direction the notch is aimed. In reality, even a slight 1˚ or 2˚ lean in the tree, or a slight asymmetry in the crown will move the center of gravity well outside the area of the trunk, making the depth of your notch meaningless as far as "enouraging" the tree to tip on it's own in that direction.

Think of the hinge as just for "steering" the tree left or right. The 80% length number you hear is just a rule of thumb to make sure your hinge is long enough to provide that steering. Generally, a hinge length that is 80% of the DBH (diameter at breast height) will provide good steering; a thickness of 10% of DBH provides a good combination of flexibility and strength for the hinge to bend. However, that is just a rule of thumb. Different species may react differently, and other conditions may create a need to adjust things. (all bets are off with rotten or dead trees)

The notch makes the opportunity for the tree to fall forward, but if the tree is not already leaning that way, it will need some "persuasion". Some folks do this with a rope or winch. some push it - by hand, with a lever or pole, or with a tractor or other machine (that latter can be dangerous, if you don't know what you are doing: if the hinge breaks, the tree can com back on top of the tractor). One easy way to tip the tree forward is to tap a wedge in the back of the cut. The wedge lifts the back of the trunk, tipping it forward. It can be surprising how much movement you can get with a wedge: if the back edge of the tree is 10" from the back of the hinge, and you tap in a wedge to lift the back of the tree by one inch, the top of a 50 foot tree will swing forward by 5 feet. If you need more than that, there are ways to get more (tap in the first wedge, then put a "cookie" or other spacer in the cut to almost fill the gap created and tap in another wedge on top of the cookie).

Husqvarna has is a pretty good series on Tree Felling. Here's a link to the whole series Husqvarna video series Its a long series, and some of it may be way too basic for you, but it's worth a watch.

There is no substitute for seeing some of this first hand. Around here we have some excellent "Game of Logging" instructors. They teach similar techniques to what is in the Husqvarna video series (in fact Husqvarna was a long time sponsor of the Game of Logging. I suspect a lot of what is in their video came from GOL.) THe classes aren't cheap, but with checking out if you want some good pointers. Not sure if there is anyone teaching them up in Nova Scotia, however.

[Edited: Modified link to go to the entire series of Husqvarna felling videos, rather than just one of them.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Carson-saws

the "ole gimble" and perhaps wedges.  Plunge cuts are fun but an approach I would not recommend.  Saw a Stihl rep (Sven Svenson) sp...he cut a tree that was leaning down hill...used the plunge cut and some wedges..and fell that tree up hill... was pretty dern impressive.  Something I will admit without haste...I would NOT attempt.
Let the Forest be salvation long before it needs to be

OneWithWood

Why would you not recommend it?
One With Wood
LT40HDG25, Woodmizer DH4000 Kiln

John Mc

Quote from: OneWithWood on June 27, 2016, 10:23:14 AM
Why would you not recommend it?

I'm curious why not as well. It's easy to learn and quite a bit safer than trying to "swing" a tree against its lean.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

DeerMeadowFarm

I buy 12" wedges. Almost all wedges are the same thickness at the square end so the longer the wedge the slighter the angle. Makes it easier to pound in and less chance of it popping out.
GOL teaches you to create a hinge that is 80% DBH wide minimum, 10% DBH thick with a wedge angle of 70 degrees or greater. When I've followed the "recipe" I have been successful.

Czech_Made

Love to learn, thank you guys.

John Mc

I modified the link in reply #11 to go to the entire series of Husqvarna felling videos, rather than just one of them. (Some of you may have wondered why I was linking to a video on using an "ergonomic stance" when felling.)

Here's a link to #6 in the series: Notch and Hinge Technique.
This one has some interesting explanations starting at 7:55 of Conventional, Humboldt, and Open Faced notches, and why they are done the way they are. (An interesting explanation of why the Humboldt was developed, and why it is "upside down".)

The Open Faced notch with hinge length at 80% DBH and hinge thickness at 10% is basically what is taught in the Game of Logging classes. He starts talking about forming the hinge at 7:55, and the reasons for considering bore cutting the hinge vs just cutting in from the back at 9:05. (A good description, but you'll have to watch one of the other videos for a better demonstration of starting the bore cut. This one is more why you might consider bore cutting, rather than HOW to do it.)



If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

John Mc

And for those who have not seen a bore cut, in this video this video,
he talks about his plan for the whole tree and walks through each step.

The bore cut discussion starts at 17:32. He actually starts the bore at 18:40. It's pretty subtle, and you may miss it if you are not looking for it, but he starts the bore with the bottom edge of the bar tip (using the very tip or the top edge can cause kickback). He cuts a little pocket for the bar to enter, then swings from using the bottom edge of the tip to going straight in right around 18:43-18:44. That little move is the key to starting a bore cut safely.  As he pointed out before cutting, he keeps the saw cutting back away from what will eventually be the back of the hinge. Once he has bored completely in, he can take his time setting the exact desired thickness of the hinge (if he tried to set the exact hinge thickness as he bored, he may risk cutting into the hinge as he bores).

Before all the flame wars begin, I'm NOT saying this is the only way to fell a tree. It's ONE way to get a tree on the ground safely. One of the reasons GOL teaches it is because 85% or more of accidents happen within 15 feet of the stump. This technique minimizes the time spent at the stump while the tree is in a condition where it could start moving.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Czech_Made

^^^That is excellent!

I learned to cut trees down with hand saw, we used bow saws and two man crosscut saws for the bigger stuff and axes to make the notch.  Chainsaws were not available to the public back than.

When I finally started using chainsaw, I used it just like a hand saw  -  but what that guy shows is great; learning new tricks in my age, haha.

Carson-saws

I only say that in regard to someone that has not "learned it"   For the skilled hands of you folks it is a walk in the park,  yet for a person that has not been shown the technique THAN I would stick with the Gimbal...or reverse gimbal.... until taught. 
Let the Forest be salvation long before it needs to be

John Mc

Quote from: Carson-saws on June 29, 2016, 11:58:38 AM
I only say that in regard to someone that has not "learned it"   For the skilled hands of you folks it is a walk in the park,  yet for a person that has not been shown the technique THAN I would stick with the Gimbal...or reverse gimbal.... until taught.

Some folks were just born with a chainsaw in their hands. Unfortunately, I am not one of those people. For the rest of us mere mortals, there is very little I'd recommend trying with a chainsaw without some sort of instruction (whether it's a formal class, or working under the supervision of someone more experienced). Yes, you can probably teach yourself a lot of things, but without at least some base of training/experience to build on, it's a risky path to take. (Insurance companies aren't stupid. There is a reason insurance for loggers is so expensive - and that is for experienced professionals).

Maybe it's just a regional thing, but I'm not familiar with your terminology. What's a "gimbal" or "reverse gimbal"?
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

BEEMERS

I think that to understand the reason for the bore cut,you would have to understand a barberchair..if you don't understand the physics behind that monster..you cant understand what you are preventing....
Are there any videos showing a barberchair?...I'm talking 2 foot tree splitting up 12 feet,trunk teetering on that twelve foot high point,which puts butt of that ruined log twelve feet behind stump,then that coming down on one side or other of said tree while you are scrambling to get to safety and you don't even know where that is?
and if that tree caught another tree,that twelve foot behind the stump could be left,right,or right over you.
Its all this in a second or two and its terrifying....if you are smart.
If your not smart or have no fear...lets educate.
anyway,any barberchair vids to press the point of what this prevents? I believe a lot who are asking for info on bore cuts may never have seen this,and it may negate the whole learning experience ,and not put a point to all the advice offered.

Ianab

This is a Barber Chair.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YAf61zz5VU

What steps should you take when it happens? Large fast ones   :D

The GOL bore cutting method makes this MUCH less likely.
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

BEEMERS

Thank you Ianab,If that doesn't scare you, you shouldn't be around chainsaws.I f you can picture someone who didn't know what was going to happen and they stayed by that stump..that tree came down right where he was standing AND twenty plus feet behind it.
if you don't borecut,so0ner or later you will have this..imagine being by the stump,this happening and trying to get away through 2 feet of snow? or brush?
I admit,I have done this on purpose with some trees that were just firewood and the trunk being split saves a lot of splitting...but it still is scary as heck.

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