Mahogany

[nativewolf]

Anyone ever get a chance to work in a Mahogany Plantation?  Been years since i did tropical plantations but I was asked to help manage a plantation in Hawaii.  I was wondering if anyone did, would they have markets for thinnings.  I know quite a bit about the species but finding a market for thinnings in Hawaii will be interesting.  Maybe like our Teak growers, they will get containerized and sent off.  

Thanks All!

[mike_belben]

What island?

[teakwood]

We have mahogany here but if never heard of planting in plantations. i think they need 80-100 years to get to useful size, not really interesting for plantation cycling. I think there are over 30 div. mahogany species. We have the so called Honduran Mahogany and i did some board samples and was not impressed by the color of the wood. just a reddish wood without much grain. I don't know if there are other most beautiful species   

[nativewolf]

Mike:  I'll have to go find out, I just was looking at the plat and photos. 

Teakwood:  Wondering about the rotation myself.  I mean it is supposed to be growing 1+ meters a year and DBH is supposed to be fast increment as well.  Not sure why it would be planted, instead of teak, if the rotation has to be 60 years but lots of literature suggest 60 year rotation.  I know in Thailand we did not have it on 60 year rotations but Thai are not ...the most long term planning folks in general.  Your ancestors probably take the prize in that regard (good long term managers).

[teakwood]

that's interesting

60years, that could be. always take in consideration that fast "young" grown plantation wood will never have the same quality and beautiful color than old single growth trees

I don't know if teak could be grown in Hawaii but i'm sure it would make more sense than mahogany.  Grows faster, same or higher price, lots of buyers, ...

In Thailand the teak plantations have 40years cycles instead of our 20years. it must grow slower there

[nativewolf]

Teak in Thailand is either growing in a area with only 4 month wet season, pretty dry and really hot in summer. Or is growing in natural range which is further north, high elevation and frankly pretty cool in winter, wetter, but cooler.  If you want to see amazing teak go to Irriwaddy river in central Myanmar.  Wow.  

Yeah, I am wondering why they planted Mahogany instead of Teak.  I mean Volcanic soils that can grown anything.  Why not teak? 

What's your rainfall like in your part of CR?

[nativewolf]

What island?

Kilauea

[nativewolf]

Wow, 68 inches of rain a year on average and very little variance from month to month.  Man, should be able to grown anything if you get nutrients management under control.

[Southside]

And now you know why Monsanto has such a giant research presence in Hawaii.  

[mike_belben]

Thats big island.  I kinda figured it would be there or molokai.  All the other real estate is priced where only millionaire homes or apartments/retail shops can go on a postage stamp of land profitably.  Big island actually has cows so the price has to be lower due to more land/less people. 

I was stationed in oahu for 4 years.  The biggest thing that will catch you by surprise in the islands is probably the total lack of industrial support. There just isnt any trucking or equipment or manufacturing there.  Nothing metal is made in hawaii and a mechanic is a guy who fixes cars and weedwackers.    If it isnt sold at home depot then its mail order and the freight on everything is insane.   


This may not be a consideration on your part of the job at all, but for me.. The biggest thing would be maintaining any harvest equipment.  Theres just so few welders, lathes, mills and hose crimpers on those islands.   Probably one of the few times i would say import a brand new machine and hope for the best.  Matson and CSX are the only way anything gets there.  Here in the states you wont have to look too far for too long to find a guy who can work on your iron.  Out there, not so.  I bet Dole and the highway dept own the only tractors in the state.  I dont think i ever saw a single one. 

In general, be aware that the eastern (windward) sides of the islands get the daily rain and as it crosses the mountains the clouds dry.  In summer the western sides are nearly deserts, much more brown and prone to drought.  Winter is wet all over.  Its probably comparable to a asian or central american climate.  I dunno if itll matter but there is also a lot of salt in the air coming off the ocean.  It rots cars very very badly.  Salt powder plus sun just eats away at windshield frames and roof drip rails, any edges.  What will that do to these trees?

[mike_belben]

is this stuff that grows well in dense clumps or does it need spacing?  Because hawaii is a jungle of sun and rain.. If youve got spaced crowns youre gonna have crazy undergrowth to control.  The bamboo there will grow so tight you cant walk through it. 

[nativewolf]

is this stuff that grows well in dense clumps or does it need spacing?  Because hawaii is a jungle of sun and rain.. If youve got spaced crowns youre gonna have crazy undergrowth to control.  The bamboo there will grow so tight you cant walk through it.

Oh in the tropics control of understory is a key issue, that's one reason teak gets planted densely and why teakwood thins several times.  Even then he's fighting to keep nutrients in the trees and not grasses, etc.  They have the same issue for sure in Hawaii but I'm not sure how much moisture Teakwood gets, seems from his photos that it is in the 60" a year kind of level, otherwise moisture deficiency opens up the forest, just too dry and the trees have an advantage. 
 The site is an east facing slope a mile from the ocean so rain should be abundant all season,  looks like a place to grow trees.  You'd get almost no growth ring (in tropics dry season will cause a growth ring) which would be interesting from a manufacturing point of view. 

[mike_belben]

If big island is like oahu, a mile from the windward coast will rain nearly every morning all year.  Winter will have full rainy days but nearly as much sunshine as well.  Im still curious if mahogony is adaptable to the salt.   Id say the coldest temp i felt in 4 years was maybe 55f.  And let me tell you it was freeeeezing.  Like, 'we might die, quick, look in the closet to see if we own a sweatshirt!' cold.

[longtime lurker]

There are plantings of Swamp Mahogany Eucalyptus robusta (and I also believe Red Mahogany Eucalyptus pellita) in Hawaii. So it might not be Swietenia spp. when they say "Mahogany".

Just sayin' 

[nativewolf]

There are plantings of Swamp Mahogany Eucalyptus robusta (and I also believe Red Mahogany Eucalyptus pellita) in Hawaii. So it might not be Swietenia spp. when they say "Mahogany".

Just sayin'

Ahh, well that makes sense.  Eucalyptus Robusta; Eucalyptus pellita).  Any idea who harvest them? And what the business case is?   I mean a Euc plantation on the Big Island would have a 8 year to thinning, 15 year to harvest sort of schedule I'd think.  

[longtime lurker]

I dont know much about robusta... grows well south of here but i do know it was planted there quite extensively about 60 to 80 years back and has gone pretty much feral.

Pellita we cut regularly, both native forest and some plantation material. I think its ideally about a 40 year rotation at a minimum, 60 will give very high quality logs. I was involved in a small way in a study relating to pellita that will tell you much about mid rotation qualities at 18 years old. the link will take you to one of the 4 parts of the study, google will help you find the rest.

http://www.fwpa.com.au/images/resources/FWPA_PN07.3022_Part%20C_0.pdf

The business case is simple: the stuff grows reasonably quickly and cuts a reasonable board with structural properties in juvenile material better then mature white oak has. it is very durable, naturally resistant to termites and decay fungi etc. Here its rated at 30 years in ground durability untreated and we have truly the worlds worst termites. Stuff hurts their teeth so they leave it alone.
And its red, as in red red and attractive. And the chinese love the stuff because it slices quite well to give an attractive grain, and peels quite well to give a veneer that imparts a lot of strength to a ply. And like mot eucalypts the woodchip is premium quality because of fibre length or whatever they grade it on... so it gets a premium price even there. and in Hawaii it would have no native pests or diseases so should grown even better then here.



That is pellita there, logs just big enough to saw 8 x8's with no sap in the corners so probably 20 years or so old. its strong, dont rot, nothing eats it... and the colour sells it.  I love the stuff

[teakwood]

Nice wood, Aussie.

[teakwood]

We got around 100" of rain a year with 3-4 month dryseason, temps 22-35degrees (72-95), at sea level. that's pretty much ideal for teak. Teak loves the hot temps, needs lots of water but not too much, a little wind is ok but should not be storm wind or they crack or get damaged.

In the Caribbean side of CR they have 180" of rain year around and teak grows even faster there but does not develop the beautiful dark color in the heartwood so the  price drops significantly. Teak needs some dryseason month so they drop all the leaves and start over growing when the rain comes back, like fall and winter     

[teakwood]

Salt powder plus sun just eats away at windshield frames and roof drip rails, any edges.  What will that do to these trees?

That's a very good question and i don't know the answer. would be interesting to know if teak or mahogany adapts to the salt. maybe somebody knows and will chime in

[nativewolf]

Very nice pictures of the Pellita.  I can imagine that would be a hit in China.  Rotation length is surprising to me, I'd have though with the moderate clime you'd be able to push that along like a P. radiata; ie large sawlogs in 20 years.  So it is a slow growing Euc compared to others?   Very cool tree, thanks for sharing!

[nativewolf]

We got around 100" of rain a year with 3-4 month dryseason, temps 22-35degrees (72-95), at sea level. that's pretty much ideal for teak. Teak loves the hot temps, needs lots of water but not too much, a little wind is ok but should not be storm wind or they crack or get damaged.

In the Caribbean side of CR they have 180" of rain year around and teak grows even faster there but does not develop the beautiful dark color in the heartwood so the  price drops significantly. Teak needs some dryseason month so they drop all the leaves and start over growing when the rain comes back, like fall and winter    

I figured you had to be pretty moist, your pictures show such lush growth.  So by comparission the teak plantations you reference in Thailand are only getting half your moisture.  I guess that's the holdup on rotation.  On the other hand, color is excellent.

[teakwood]

yes, for sure and you said that they just have 4 month rain season, that's another factor.

As the teak grows nicely here also does the underbrush!! it's a real fight to battle that

[Ed_K]

 There's a story in Biomass Magazine about Powering Paradise. Their building a 30-MW Hu Honua Bioenergy plant on the big island. They planted Eucalyptus on acre's of what was sugar plantations to run this biomass plant. Would this be the management job?

[nativewolf]

No nothing related.  Think a very small version of The Decedents (George Clooney movie reference).  Only no family drama, really just a management issue and a consulting issue.  I'd be the consulting forester, wouldn't do the harvest but make sure plans were in place, vegetative controls were being practiced (Teakwood is so right, if you don't stay up on the veg control in the wet tropics you are going to loose huge % of potential growth).  

[longtime lurker]

Very nice pictures of the Pellita.  I can imagine that would be a hit in China.  Rotation length is surprising to me, I'd have though with the moderate clime you'd be able to push that along like a P. radiata; ie large sawlogs in 20 years.  So it is a slow growing Euc compared to others?   Very cool tree, thanks for sharing!

Most eucalypts are pretty steady growth wise: goes with the high density/ extreme strength I suspect. Takes a while to lay down fibre of those qualities. I would class pellita as moderate by euc standards even in a tropical climate like here. Form also plays a part - the likes of Euc grandis (rose or flooded gum) goes tall fast and then takes a long time to girth out because of the height. pellita is more average in height but denser so often slower
To put it in perspective we are currently cutting a native forest stand that includes a mix of pellita and grandis. it's a mixed age cut for ecological reasons with a pretty high retention rate of stems for either habitat or next harvest purposes - being a native stand its not clear cut. The high retention rate also helps timber production in terms of making the next generation grow up chasing light rather then needing pruning to stop them growing dumpy.
The last harvest cycle through there was about 40 years back which is in line with the normal state harvest rotation for "wild" timber production areas.
We average about 30-50' of sawlog with an average diameter at midpoint of about 15" in the pellita. Most of those are probably 40-50 years old. Density is about 78 lb/ft3
We average about 65-85' of sawlog with an average diameter at midpoint of about 15" in the grandis. Most of those are 30-40 years old. Density is around 49 lb/ft3
American White Oak is about 47 lb/ft3, so as you can see the strength/density of the pellita is considerably greater while the grandis is about the same.
Course give them all 100 years and they spit out some seriously good logs. At 200 they get a bit over ripe.

Eucalyptus grandis: Rose or Flooded Gum, mature stem proabbaly abotu 150 years old and on the downhill slide. Best guess from that picture is shes got 100' of log from ground to the bottom of the crown.

Eucalyptus resinifera: the other "red mahogany" (2 subspecies but pellita is virtually identical, its kinda like the red oak thing) probably pushing 200 years old. That lump has been lying there on the ground through regular burning cycles since the last harvest in the late 1970's. The sapwood has degraded but the heartwood in that will be like cutting a steel bar by now: thats where the value lies in the denser eucalypts... extreme durability and naturally fire and insect resistant.

[mike_belben]

Wow, that things in better shape than me and its cord was cut ten years before mine!

[longtime lurker]

yeah I dropped an axe into him to see. Spongy for the first three inches then it got real hard real fast. Been a tie log, and it was 2" short on length (I put a tape over it) so they left it behind.

I hooked the dozer on him and dragged him a ways and he's turned into a nice loading ramp face. The next guy in 2060 will most likely thank me for it.

[nativewolf]

Thanks Lurker.  You never know what you're going to learn on FF.

[mike_belben]

So its like australian locust. 

[Ianab]

Problem with short rotation eucalyptus is that the younger logs seem to have a LOT of tension. Very hard to get stable boards out of them. So you can grow something that "looks" like a saw log in 25 years, but it's only good for firewood. They need to grow for longer and lay down some more stable wood. If you are growing for bio mass,  then the wood properties don't matter, it just needs to burn.

[nativewolf]

Problem with short rotation eucalyptus is that the younger logs seem to have a LOT of tension. Very hard to get stable boards out of them. So you can grow something that "looks" like a saw log in 25 years, but it's only good for firewood. They need to grow for longer and lay down some more stable wood. If you are growing for bio mass,  then the wood properties don't matter, it just needs to burn.

That is interesting.  How about that Radiata Pine you have, that is cut darn young.  Any tension issues on them?

[Ianab]

Nowhere near as bad as Eucalyptus  :D

The Radiata has been bred over the years to minimise the juvenile wood, which is the first few years of growth in the log. That's the part that shrinks in length and makes some fast grown pine unstable. It's also present on older logs, but if the tree grew slower then the juvenile wood is only a couple of inches around the pith, and the rest of the log is good.

So the NZ radiata is a long way removed from the original wild stock, and surprisingly stable for wood with up to 1" growth rings.

[kanoak]

Aloha, I run a treefarm in Kona on the big island growing many of the species mentioned in this thread and I may be familiar with the planting you are talking about. Swietenia macrophylla about 30 years old now, just past Pahoa toward Kalapana. I drive by and would guess most stems are 12-16" DBH max. Relatively fertile area with high volcanic risk. Stand has not been pruned or thinned and desperately needs attention. I expect culls will be relatively low grade and size, however they should have tight grain due to their slow growth. My experience is limited, however the young S. macrophylla, 18y, that I have cut disappointed me, color and grain, compared to Toona for example. Nothing like Eucalypts, except maybe the grain and color red; young wood is not totally stable, but logs dont explode on the saw. Tectona and S. mahagoni have been rock solid off the saw like nothing else.

[mike_belben]

Nice, a local.  What do you guys have for equipment there?

[kanoak]

Started with a lt10, but just passed that on to my friend with a Lucas who will use it for branches and resaw. Now I've got a rebuilt lt30hdd and a bit of support equip.; few 939s, couple Case ex's, a bus' Case rc80? forklift, and a little other rotting iron. Building a home for the mill.
Thanks for sharing pictures and narrative everyone; cool to see your projects and learn about how things work and have worked in your neck of the woods. Ill work on an intro thread to keep from hijacking this one. 

[kanoak]

I would like to also say that everything Mike says regarding obstacles is somewhat true. We do have good machinists and welders, but they are busy or leave for greener pastures; so you need to know them and what they enjoy. Mainland market is where it is at; may need to just do cants and sell carving and turning blanks. 

[teakwood]

Nice, now we have a Hawaiian Member, Welcome.

Show us some pics of your operation, we love them.

You can post them here, i'm pretty sure the OP Nativewolf doesn't mind and it's topic related. 

[mike_belben]

I would like to also say that everything Mike says regarding obstacles is somewhat true. We do have good machinists and welders, but they are busy or leave for greener pastures; so you need to know them and what they enjoy. Mainland market is where it is at; may need to just do cants and sell carving and turning blanks.

I left in 2003.  the proliferation of small, freightable benchtop equipment since then has probably helped a bit.  Enco started making pretty good machines for a fraction of american made stuff around that time too if i remember right.  Then hobby CNC made plasma tables possible for a guy with a 1car garage.  A lot has changed now that i think of it!  
939 track loaders?  What do you cut and move logs with?  Cut to length on site or skidded whole to somewhere?  What kind of size?  Would love to see pics.  
I cant imagine trying to run and maintain an old harvester/processor out there while waiting a week on every little fitting and O ring in the mail. 

[nativewolf]

Nice, now we have a Hawaiian Member, Welcome.

Show us some pics of your operation, we love them.

You can post them here, i'm pretty sure the OP Nativewolf doesn't mind and it's topic related.

Great to have Hawaii joining in on the thread, thread can move in any direction.  All good to me.

[kanoak]

Aloha, the 939s are 6x6 military trucks. I am mostly thinning planted stuff younger than 30 years, so everything is less than 2' dbh, and relatively close to access. Rebuilding and mounting a Prentice on one of the trucks, but for now excavator and dump truck do everything. 
 
Sawmill building its home


E. microcorys stickered with E. deglupta 

 
S. macrophylla in a mixed stand with brushbox and jackfruit. Pruned to 20'. 


 
and, just to stay on topic, ltr S. mahagoni, S. humilis, S. macrophylla.

Sorry about the sideways pics, is there a rotate function in the gallery? 

[nativewolf]

Great pictures.  In Thailand we saw a lot of jackfruit trees cut for lumber as well as for the fruit.  Is jackfruit popular as a food there?  One of my favorites but I could never get used to Durian.

[kanoak]

Jackfruit is getting more popular as a food here, very appreciated among certain groups. Other relatives and selected clones have been introduced from S.E. Asia. I am still learning what to do with them, but I have had some good ones, and they are a huge fruit. The trees planted in the timber are selected for form; I have not eaten any of their fruit. I also have not yet cut any of the wood, although I imagine it is close to breadfruit. I have had two durian in my life, one was nasty garlic toe, the other was creme brûlée. The different people who introduced me were crazy about each. I would not eat the first again, but planted the seeds of the second.

[kanoak]

Also, you may want to talk to the state forester based in Hilo. J. B. Friday - jbfriday@hawaii.edu. He is one of the better contacts in hawaiian forestry and might be able to turn you on to some good information and people.

[kanoak]

Couple more pictures. BTW right on for the fabrication thread and the FF in general. You guys are awesome.

 

 

 

 

     

[mike_belben]

Youve got a lotta iron by hawaii standards!

[nativewolf]

Ahh, have more info now.  So 6.2" avg dbh and nearly 50' tall.  Real Mahogany- seed from Honduras.  Planted in stages, not all at the same time.  Nearly 90k trees.  Kanoak :  do you know Forest Solutions from Hawaii?

[teakwood]

just 6.2" dbh? How old?

[kanoak]

I do know of Forest Solutions, been a couple of years, but the guys I talked to were cool. They had (probably still have) some of the bigger private forestry and land management contracts. 
That mahogany planting needed a thinning at least 10 years ago. 6.2"? Stuff that size I poison and leave to decompose standing; way less damage to the surrounding + trees, and by the time you pay someone to chop it down you are in the red. Just dont go walking when the wind blows. I guess if it grew that slow it might have some red. Edge trees next to the highway look a little bigger, but that is to be expected. Did not know they had planted that many, but they are thick.
Actually, Mike, we are featherweights around here. There is booming construction/excavation/military and when stuff wears out or is dumped we can sometimes afford a new project. 

[mike_belben]

Nice.  

What are you mainly doing with all the diggers?  Residential clearings?

I used to shape surfboards near some kane fields in nanakuli (little south of makaha) and dont know if i ever even saw a tractor.  Didnt pay much attention in those days.

[nativewolf]

just 6.2" dbh? How old?

This plantation is only 9-12 years old I think.  Average at .12 cubic meters per tree but boy, that is small wood.  The DBH variation is huge.  Probably due to planting over time.  412 trees per acre right now.  
I'll know more Friday.  

[kanoak]

Not sure but it could be a different planting than I am thinking about; sounds too young for my memory. You need 10 more years to get something stable in my experience. I just cut a cull 1' and thought it was crap compared to some of the toon which has been unstable under 2' but much superior in color and stability.
Mike - Diggers make road for access and fence primaraly and also . Feral hogs are a huge problem here, you wouldnt believe the damage to crop they cause without talking about the other problems. Best thing is to eat them but we have too much area to take care of that way. I wish I had access to harvester/processors; I can do things with my excavator thumb that might make your eyes pop. It has to do it all; just got a fecon for the larger one to do some pruning.
Longtime - Awesome to see the Eucies in their native home. My house is partly robusta. Dad got it off the mill and set it up green. There is a huge amount on the island; one of the most commonly planted species for windbreaks and for timber. Many are over-mature. Beautiful wood, moves like !^%$. I grow E. microcorys, E. pellita, E deglupta, and L. confertum. Microcorys is a winner in my book. Our pellita came from over-selected plantation seeds and grows too fast for its own good. Beautiful wood; Had a few small pieces explode on the bandsaw. If you ever find seeds of some winners you harvest I would be quite interested.
Teakwood - we grow some teak, however it does not grow above 1000' elevation (58-90F) well in our climate. I think our trees are growing quite a bit slower than yours; subtropical and all; seed source has a huge impact on color and form in my experience. Mahogany relatives mostly winners for us as, african species are a mixed bag, well as a couple of eucalyptus. 

[teakwood]

This plantation is only 9-12 years old I think.  Average at .12 cubic meters per tree but boy, that is small wood

That's pretty good for such young mahogany.  My teak thinning this year was 0.165 m3/tree but it's teak, it grows alot faster than mahogany. Remember that's just for the thinned trees, the stand should be around 0.3m3

[mike_belben]

I spooked a huge boar on a cliffside mountainbike trail about 6 miles into the jungle by myself, maybe 2000 or 01.  I dont think id have been any more scared if it was a grizzly. 


Does big island have the mongoose and rat problems of oahu?  What about snakes?

[kanoak]

That will get you going, bet the boar was as scared as you though. I spent a few years on Oahu about the same time. Left part of my heart over there in the mountains. 
Ya, we have rats and mongoose; just lost a sitting hen and full clutch + a bunch of chicks. They dont normally bother full sized chickens. I think they do help keep snakes out though, none established so far as I know.

[mike_belben]

It went up the side of the hill flinging red dirt like a motocross roost.  Was on the trail from pali hwy to waimanalo.

[nativewolf]

More talks today this week.  Kanoak: are there folks on the island that actually know how to mark a selective thinning?  If we're going to go for diameter and form than we need nice clean trees, right distance, easily felled, etc.  They've got a 3 person farm team that they would have do the thinning.

[mike_belben]

Hopefully hes doing okay.  Theyve got a volcano doing a lot of damage over there right now