Do we have any members near me making 6/4 t@g for visible sheeting on a pavilion? I need to purchase about 300 square feet. Problem is the length. My structure is 16' with one foot overhangs. So 18 feet is perfect, everything else is waste. My rafters are 3.5 by 7.25 on 4ft centers, so nothing comes out right with out waste.
I can special order it from menards is the only place I can find it, and I really really REALLY don't want to do business with Menards.
I have read, understand, and agree to the terms of posting an ad on the Forestry Forum.
I don't have anything like that Jeff. But I am glad you read, understand and agree to the terms of a Forestry Forum ad😁
If you can figure a way to make the shipping economical I have the capacity to make it.
Man, thats a long ways for what, less than 500 bf.
My brain isn't working, but wouldn't 9s and 10s work without a bunch of waste?
End rafters are 5.5x7.25s. Others are 3.5 by 7.35 at 4 foot centers. 1 ft overhang
Roof area per side, 18 x 8'1.5"
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That's what I'd do. Stagger the laps. Trim the ends after they're all on. You just sounded like you were set on using full length. Plus you've got nice wide rafters so laps would have plenty of purchase and be easier to nail than lapping on a standard 1.5" rafter. Easy peasy.
And you wouldn't have to pay a commission for doing commerce here. :D :D :D :D BIG savings right there.
The amish product is 8' That just dont work out. To expensive to gave a bunch of drops.
can you mill the boards and have the Amish guys (if nearby) mill the tongue and groove? or do a ship lap or spline on your saw?
Yeah. 8's and 10's could work, but not with the current rafter spacing. Any standard length would still leave a lot of waste. I've adjusted my rafter spacing a few times to make the material work out better. Maybe add 1 rafter. Pick spacing starting with the two middle rafters. I've even spaced them a little different on the two outside rafters to make it work. Should have a lookout on the overhangs anyway, so visually it can work. Maybe the look of the equal spacing is a must have. Maybe not. Just personal preference. Set the sail or sail the set? Yes. (Sailing reference. Stink-potters wouldn't get that. . . )
14' & 5' (10' cut in half) would only be 1' of waste per row. If I figured that right.
I think the decking should be dried, and I dont have the logs to saw that out.
If you plan to run long a little extra is good. Only 6 inches on each end and a nice fresh cut. could even make the over hand 18 inches and or taper from 12 inches at the edge to 18 inches at the top to add some visual interest... not that it will need any more. just ideas from another guy who hates to waste much. I know they have little hardware gadgets for deck floors, any chance you can use reg. 2 x 6 lumber with fasteners to keep the boards even across the span between the rafters?
Its more about the look I think. I dont thing there would be much sag in 45 inch span on 6/4 but shrinkage could create funky gaps in time.
Yeah, you get to choose the look. That's what counts in the long run. There are ways to get there, just a matter of finding the way that suits you. In the end, having a bunch of waste may be the best choice, even though most of us like to minimize the wasted material. Might actually be cheaper or at least acceptable.
I wonder if @DonP has seen this post. This is right up his alley.
That structure looks like a good place to have a pig to pick on.
I've seen it ... I drew Jeff's current problem :D
Y'all have hit all my solutions. TF is nice but wider spacings can be a problem for efficient material use. I even tried that 19.2 and 24" spacing in regular framing and came to the conclusion that in the end they were not really saving anything unless you do very careful planning of everything.
Whatcha think of the look of the bracing?
Ha. I should've known you had something to do with this.
I like the bracing. What is it? Repurposed stuff already on hand? Or . . .
One other thought hit me: Wider overhangs on the end. May help with material usage, or at least the waste becomes part of the roof. I've chosen 1ft overhang before because it looked generous on the drawing. After it was done, I looked up and wished it was longer. Just food for thought.
I had thought the same thing on the overhangs, just dangle it out there and pick a happy point. If Jeff were only closer, I'm just up on a tea break from dropping pine, could make em any length. I'll let him fill you in on the bracing I was just curious on what you thought of the look. I used to think I had perfect taste, that has been challenged before :D
Back to the fun part, that one is all over but for the mountain of limbery in the front yard ::)
In going to move this topic to the tf and log building board and use it for the build topic. Im getting stuff scattered and dont want to be reported and or punished.
:)
Riteleg is the hero on the bracing. I called Tamiam and she grabbed Kevin. I gave them my idea, they ran with it and sent me a pdf, I sent back my tweeks and we were golden. They were cut out this past week. Just need bent welded and powder coated.
I was contacted by a guy this morning that wants some year old red pine sawn and may want to saw on shares. Its on longer lengths. This may be my answer to the sheeting.
I'm under construction this morning. Last 2 days i was down with a double root canal. I got up today lean and mean and raring to go. If you know anything about me, you know that when I got to the bottom of the first hole and this came up, it was a very good sign.
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Sweet, nice pudding :)
Mmmmm..... Baked potato
I don't know if this is a thing, but I decided to put handkebare on my post to guide it in the hole and to be able to adjust it easily. I just moved them to each posts. I am within 1/16 max measurement measuring at ground, or top, post to post and diagonally. Now I have to level the tops and it will be ready for the first beam. I'll raise my beams with an elevator I will make from harbor freight crank boat winches.
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Quote from: Jeff on June 06, 2020, 03:20:08 PM
I don't know if this is a thing, but I decided to put handkebare on my post to guide it in the hole and to be able to adjust it easily. I just moved them to each posts. I am within 1/16 max measurement measuring at ground, or top, post to post and diagonally. Now I have to level the tops and it will be ready for the first beam. I'll raise my beams with an elevator I will make from harbor freight crank boat winches.
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Your project is looking good Jeff👍
Quote from: Jeff on June 06, 2020, 03:20:08 PMI don't know if this is a thing, but I decided to put handkebare on my post to guide it in the hole and to be able to adjust it easily.
Don't know if it IS a thing, but may become a thing now that you showed your handlebar. That would be really helpful when setting posts without a helper. Simple and quick and handy.
Looking good.
And even better with a helper. Those 6x6s are heavy. I had a concrete cookie (half a 4" solid) in the bottom of each hole and it made it really easy to adjust the posts, and much easier to get the post in the hole without knocking dirt and stones down on the cookies.
Here are the beam jacks I came up with. 2 harbor freight hand winches lagged to two- 2 by 8s (Tom Tom. Tripleword)
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I don't know if you got it settled yet, but my first thoughts were - is this just for sheathing, is there roof paper/synthetic and roofing going on this? What wood species are you looking for in the T&G? I would definitely add another rafter or two preferably to reduce the span. Get the span down to 2-2.5 feet and you could use 1x. I'm assuming you don't have boring bees (carpenter bees) there because that would dictate what wood type you use- no softwood.
It would be much easier for someone on FF to supply rough sawn boards and have someone else on the forum dry them and have someone else machine them if you can't find anyone to do all three. I doubt anyone will have finished material in stock. Actually all you need is air dried boards down to 12% since this is going outside. So if Someone could supply air dried boards, and then find someone to plane, edge, and T&G them....
This morning I am sizing my beams. The one log was full of wire and nails so I only roughed out the beams as the saw was playing old glory. Im ready for the top plate beams, so first I removed any wire in my new cut zones, put on a new blade and sawed the beam heights flat and true. The width will remain wavy, I can work with that. Ive got one beam, the first, notched and ready to ride the elevator. I'll get the other 3 notched, and hopefully later this afternoon we will raise the plates, square everything up and put our temp bracing on.
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Jeremy Tammy and I were able to accomplish quite a bit yesterday. We resawed all our top beams to size, got the cut and jointed, then lifted into place. Totally squared plumb, and braced for further construction and rock solid. My beam lift idea worked flawlessly. Making it easy to lift and place.Sort of. Nothing wrong with the lift, other than I'm paying for a lack of attention to a potentual gazard and I knew better. Ive dealt with these winches on boats and feeders before. Tammy caught it happen in the end of the video lifting the last beam.
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First beam lift - YouTube (https://youtu.be/Sl8hIFPfCGg)
Beam lift. Ouch. - YouTube (https://youtu.be/vVYZUOXfULM)
Ah man, that could leave a mark! How is your face today?
You are making great progress on this build and it is looking good! Just be careful (said the pot to the kettle).
Im lucky I didn't break my eye socket. It hit me hard enough to bust me open and start pouring blood into my eye. Im swollen and very sore but fine. I guess i can still take a punch. :D l clung to the ladder for a few seconds until the fog cleared. In the video Tammy asks if Im alright I wasn't sure for a moment. It was a pretty good smack. Hard enough I thought my name was Lynn. Bahaha!
One saying we use "A good carpenter bleeds every day, a bad carpenter bleeds all day". Looks like you were using your head and only one bloodletting, you're good :).
I had a feeling something bad was going to happen when I saw the dog running off. :(
glad you are ok. if there is blood inside the front of the eye, called a hyphema, need to see you eye doc. the blood can clog the holes in your eye and cause glaucoma. beams look nice. did the joint match up inside the corners? curious if you can get a close up of the joint...when you feel better.
I did not want to speculate, but from what I know of sudden and unprotected impact wounds both from the receiving side and the initial treatment side, is that your incident did not look good to me. I missed it on the first viewing, but the second time I caught it and it made me flinch. I couldn't watch it a third time. You might have to get that looked at. As Doc mentioned, clogging the ducts and drainage passages in the eye area can cause some issues. We don't want to be calling you 'blinky'.
Get some rest.
When it comes to working with timbers this size, I found my 7 1/4 dewalt and a semi-sharp hand saw is woefully in adequate for extreme accuracy, but, hey, it was good enough for who it was for! I take that back. It's actually for Tammy. This is all for her, and she is happy so It will do.
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A bit of a knot today.(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/20200608_090730.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1591621755)
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Looks good, Jeff. I'm glad you didn't do any serious damage.
Bruise and all that is a mighty fine picture of you!!!!
I don't have the right tools either. But for what I, we build it works just fine. Not like we are doing this every week.
Found my sheeting answer. Long as they are still sound. Cut 2 years. Bark is falling off. I just looked at them. Nice sized whitepine and redpine. 14ft. Minimum diameter small end 12" most around 15".Young guy that wants them gone, but wants some putzin lumber too. Im not sawing all of them, there are 3 piles, at least I dont want to or money will have to change hands in my direction.
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Now I see the cut is above your eye and that is great (well, you know what I mean). Glad to see it hasn't slowed you down much. Your joints look just fine. an eith inch overlap nevr killed anyone. Nice work. I always had trouble with these too, two or more flips per cut, finish with a handsaw. Over the winter I borrowed a buddy's Makita timber saw (16" blade) and man, that made life a LOT easier! zip, zip, zip, 1,2,3, and it was done with nice square cuts. But we can't all get lucky every time.
Jeff pm'ed asking about knot grading, figured someone else might want to save a copy of this pocket grading card as well. All though the card is for 2x it is pretty close for all dimensions. Not being in the commodity business I don't mess around the edges of grade, if in doubt drop a grade.
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The quick and dirty version is to remember "quarter, third, half,#1,#2,#3" Now look at most things on the card and it isn't too far off ;).
Thank you Don P. I was able to print your chart on 4X6 photo paper. 8)
Don, that is pretty neat and interesting. So in another thread I said I spec'd out my cabin for 'No. 2 or better' and felt I was cutting "better". I'd say my "better" is better than the requirements for No. 1!
Did a little more, but I'm waiting for a hand to get the ridge beam to the top. I've got it to where it is by myself.
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Getting there. I think my joints are fair for a 7 1/4 saw and a handsaw. Thats all I have. So far everything is fitting together ok.
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Lookin' good, Jeff. You've got the the hard part behind you. Except for the other hard part. Then comes the easy part where you sit under the pavilion and enjoy a cold beverage. :D
looks fantastic!
Looking good 8)
All depending on whether you want to embark on a new career, there are little tricks you can do all depending on how fussy you want to be. I mentioned it briefly when we were doing the little log building tutorial back when. I passed the chainsaw through the roughed out joint to bring it into a snug fit. Kerfing here works better with a thin kerf Japanese pull saw but a handsaw will work. By running the saw thru the joint it will remove the high spots that are touching and with each kerfing pass with the saw through the joint it will fit tighter. If the overall joint is already short it will make the problem worse but if it is or begins a little proud it improves the final fit and dimension. As the fit gets tighter you might need a very thin tapered wedge to space the joint enough to allow the body of the saw to pass while letting just the set do the work. With stiff long sawzall blades and faster work I've slipped flashing against the main piece so it will just saw the offending one.
A block plane is another way to tune a joint, scribe the offending high spot by sliding a flat carpenters pencil along the stationary member marking the offending one and use that line as a guide, very lightly hollowing the center of the joint is another trick. Where a plane won't go its down to sharp chisels. You can sneak up on places that required a really tight fit. It all depends on the degree of finish desired. In green work that plays into it as well.
I have the gable
End fans to put on yet, but am waiting until I get my sheeting sawn out. Don, this would not be standing without your guidance and inspiration. Thank you!
Its pretty amazing how fast those spruce beams are drying out. I like the looks of the checking in this application.
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That looks really good.
that will be magical to eat dinner or chat by firelight under cover. and then turn it off go to bed, and not worry about embers causing a fire. looks great.
Looks fantastic Jeff! 10 days ago there was nothing there and now it is all framed up, nice and neat. Sitting under here will be just lovely through many parts of the year. I am envious, but you earned this one the hard way. I can't wait to see it when the corner braces arrive!
I just did a little etch-a-sketch, you did the execution and have the scars to prove it. Well done, looking great!
My inner safety monitor is kicking in, feel the heat overhead when you put a lid on the box.
I thought about that. It is twelve feet to the top of the ridge and it is all open in there, so I think we are good. They can have a camp fire in a teepee so... This is closer to an Indian fire. OH! Can I say that?
Pavilion Build - YouTube (https://youtu.be/wxSK4bYMAGE)
Just general info, or, my hindsight is 20/20 ::). One thing most people don't realize is the chamfered or eased edges you see on many heavy timber buildings was decorative but also for fire prevention. Just like with a stick it is easier to ignite a fine sharp corner than a wide blunt corner.
So a little belt sanding might be in order.
In response to the beginning of this thread, yes I will be running 6/4 T&G cedar for my similar project. Distance would be a challenge. My run will be near the end of this year if that helps you. Rob
Im thinking I am going to cut 6/4 x 8 or 10 from the whitepine I have access to now. Put it down, and cover with felt, then what ever roofing material I decide. As the sheeting biards shrink, you will just see the black shadow like versus the roofing material.
a light color will help reflect the heat, and a non contact measurement when you first fire it up a time or two will help guide you. I think you have enough space/distance.
Looking good Jeff 👍👍
Are you putting a ridge vent of some kind on it?
Quote from: Jeff on June 15, 2020, 10:31:25 AM
Im thinking I am going to cut 6/4 x 8 or 10 from the whitepine I have access to now. Put it down, and cover with felt, then what ever roofing material I decide. As the sheeting biards shrink, you will just see the black shadow like versus the roofing material.
A good plan. Instead of felt I use black spray paint on existing interior ceilings and some times clad with natural edge material for nice effect. The gaps look terrific - and different from what people expect.
Quote from: Raider Bill on June 15, 2020, 01:20:34 PM
Are you putting a ridge vent of some kind on it?
Not sure how I would or why as the gables will be open, and the ridge is a 6 by 12.
I was thinking to let smoke or heat out like a TeePee
Ill try and find a thermometer to stick up there once we have a rood and see what is does.
Course up there in the great north you may not worry about heat.
Got a text from Tamiam and Riteleg. It said "shipping tomorrow"
Yea!! :)
White pine for my roof sheeting
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very nice. is there a way to go from the trailer onto the mill, so not so much uphill.
Thats why its sitting there. I use the wm ramps as a bridge. Much easier.
Looking good there boss man! And the braces are on their way! It is coming together very nicely.
My friend harold are ripping for the u.p. tomorrow. We gotta be back Saturday evening.One of our old engine buddies has a bunch of cedar shakes in his barn from when he had his shingle mill running. If there is enough. And if I get a buddy deal, that's what the final roofing will be.
Back home with my stash of shingles. Got the buddy deal. 120 bucks for the lot. Very nice Northern White cedar.. I had to make an adjustment to my daily routine. Had to add garage beer drinking and sawmill talkin with friends for a day! Been to long.
Had the bed full and scattered some broken bundles on top to get more in. Even put on bundle in the backseat. There are more to bring home if I find myself shy. I shouldn't.
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It's a good thing you didn't get stopped with your stash 😂🤣. Nice score👍
That's the way I measure shingles too-by the pickup load. We go right off the bandsaw, into the pickup, and to the jobsite. Someone asked me how long it took us to cut a square of shingles, and I honestly said I had no idea. I could tell you about how long from boards to a pickup load though. And no, I didn't have any reason to keep up with how much a pickup load covered. We just kept making them until we had enough.
Nice score Jeff. That will be the equivalent to putting a cherry on top. 8)
A little to much set ya think?
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Just right. :D Perfect for sawing curves.
What did you hit?
looks like they are all headed north?
Ive not done an autopsy yet, but looks like 16 and 20 spikes, but what ever did that to the saw stopped it dead. I got through them. Lots of lead too. I have 28 14 foot 2x10s cut. That may or may not be enough. There are plenty more logs if I need to get more.
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Quote from: Jeff on June 22, 2020, 04:23:24 PM
Ive not done an autopsy yet, but looks like 16 and 20 spikes, but what ever did that to the saw stopped it dead. I got through them. Lots of lead too. I have 28 14 foot 2x10s cut. That may or may not be enough. There are plenty more logs if I need to get more.
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AH Yes it looks like that log was spiked.
Gerald
Braces look nice.
If you do get some more logs, try to get the ones without spikes. :D
(Sorry - couldn't resist.= smiley_devilish )
Looking good Jeff 👍
My 2 biggest fans!
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Ready for sheeting. Then I c2sn take the long bracing off. I certainly could now, but might as well wait.
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Havent been on for a few days.
Lookin very good Jeff.
Getting shingles, garage talking and beer drinking with friends, it doesn't get any better than that.
you know i looked on the log rite leg rite site, and I cannot find the custom corner bracing anywhere!???. did they come powder coated/ they look great!
Yup. Powder coated.
96 4.5" timberloc screws later, 12 in each brace, I may need a break before starting the sheeting.
Putting 12" screws when we were locking down the frame, I had the driver twist my left wrist really bad. It took 2 days for my brain to register it, then 3 days just to be able to use my thumb. Still pretty tender.
I like the braces, a suggestion for Logrite if they are thinking about producing them would be to off set the screw holes in the vertical portion of the brace on one of a set of two braces so the screws do not line up from one brace to the other.
That was an issue, but the construction lags bypassed each other by ever so slightly angling one screw, which hapoens with me anyways. :) regular lags would have not worked.
Jeff, when you get a chance cut a 2x4 or 2x6 45 degree brace that just covers the bottom edge of the steel. I'm curious how it would look with a wooden brace and the steel as infill on a traditional frame.
If i like it can I leave it? ;)
The bottom edge is arched, but it should give an idea.
Great looking braces and install! Logs great!
I like Don's idea, interested to see the look.
Taking a break. Those 2 by 10s are hea-vy! Tammy and I get them stood up, then I go up and pull them into place. The old Lt30 I got from @DouginUtah (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=332) so many years ago can still saw some decent lumber. Very few glimpses of daylight between them edge to edge.
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Quote from: Don P on June 23, 2020, 10:25:25 PM
Jeff, when you get a chance cut a 2x4 or 2x6 45 degree brace that just covers the bottom edge of the steel. I'm curious how it would look with a wooden brace and the steel as infill on a traditional frame.
I scabbed a scrap up there for a looky loo. I like it! However, im leaving it off for the focus on the legrite brace. :)
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I like the look of that. Looks great either with or without though.
Coming along nicely. Won't belong before you're shingling.
I guess you'll be furring (firring? sp?) out the shingles so they'll have their breathing space or will the be ok directly on the surface? What sort of underlayment (if any) is appropriate for shingles? (I haven't earned have my shingle merit badge.)
Im not putting ferring strips. Im putting down 30lb felt on the shheeting. Then laying on the cedar shingles unless I hear a compelling reason not to on a 8/12 pitch open air pavilion.
Jeff, I thought the idea of a semi-functional brace was a good one when Don mentioned it, but now that I see it, I am not so sure. The log rite brace has that nice sweeping curve that makes it attractive and draws my eye in. If you made the wood brace out of a 2x8 or larger, and traced and cut to match the curve on the logrite, and perhaps even left a gap which might even enhance the pine tree cutout. That might look pretty slick, but not detract from the elegance of the Logrite brace. Probably need a bandsaw to make that many of them though.
Anyway, it's just a thought, this build looks just great. You can play with the decorative effects later if it pleases you. Nicely done!
I like the arc. the metal vs wood is great. so looking inside out is great, but outside in is plain (perfect triangle) can the brace go behind the metal and follow the arc, then attach to the post and beam.. visually interesting. what is the gauge/thickness of the metal, think wood might add some rigidity to the bracing. looking fantastic, cannot wait till the next visit up north to see it. wish I could come and help. smiley_swinging_board smiley_smash smiley_carpenter_hit_thumb splitwood_smiley thumbs-up
Thus is as far as we got today and I am satisfied to get the work area cleaned up and tools put away as some bad weather is coming.
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I used to work with a guy, didn't matter what had been done that day "Didn't get much done today but we'll give her heck tomorrow"
Looking good. Thanks for the mockup, I think it would look good, something to keep exploring.
Jeff
I have installed many sq. off white cedar shingles over the years.
When on a roof always used furring strips or now they have cedar breather a 3/8 thick product to lay them over.
It helps to dry out the shingle they will last much longer.
Bruno
Okay, i need some instruction. Ive been informed I am being a bit selfish saying alk I care is that the shingles out last me. I have no idea how to do this on lath. Im guessing I need to purchase some, which I didnt want to do, because it probably should not be green. I dont know how or where to apply it, and i want to know hiw I then keep 10 billion gypsy moths from invading under it and still have airflow. I planned on getting started today.
Bruno, Ive checked everywhere around here for that mesh underlayment. No one carries it, or its a long order time.
Basically its just 1x2 to 1x4 material spaced the same as the exposure set to where the nails hit the laths. I think the shingles were 24's so the exposure would be 6-8" and you'll be nailing 3/4" to 1-1/2" up under the exposure.
Just measured these shingles. They are 16" shingles
Typical exposure is length minus 1" divided by 3, or 5" for 16's.
Just more stuff, I've got Dad's old handbook out. That is giving triple coverage, typical is triple or quadruple coverage depending on pitch. When laying look down at the previous 2 courses, no breaks should line up in that triple. It is best practice to no line up a break over the cathedral arch point of the shingle below as that is the most likely splitting point in that shingle which can put you break on break if it splits later.
That would put a lath every 5 inches, or twenty rows per side.
Quote from: Don P on June 27, 2020, 08:34:43 AMBasically its just 1x2 to 1x4 material spaced
And from what I've heard, you don't want the ends butted up to each other. A little space like 1/2" to 1". That way any water that
does find its way under can drain. On my old office building, we had a tile roof with wood lath up tight to each other on top of 15# felt. After 20 years or so, started developing many leaks. When they finally redid in metal, they found a mess. Basic water proofing was provided by the moss growing between the tiles. The felt had all sorts of dirt built up on the uphill side and the felt was all rotted.
Just my 2 cents, since this is a small building - use 30# felt and overlap each layer to give you at least double coverage.
Jeff
Home depot has 39" x 61' rolls for $139 with free shipping.
I would still put down 30lb felt.
The matting let's the shingles dry out.
Bruno
It's much faster and cheaper to use the matting.
I have done it many times with the strapping .
You also need strips of roofing felt between each row off shingles using strapping.
That's how I was taught.
Bruno
Quote from: Bruno of NH on June 27, 2020, 02:47:12 PMYou also need strips of roofing felt between each row off shingles using strapping. That's how I was taught.
Can you explain how the layers go down? I can't quite picture it between the felt, the strapping and the shingle where things line up and where the strapping is suppose to hit the shingles. And how does the starter course look?
The starter course has 2 rows of strapping.
You lay the first course of shingles keeping your nails above the reveal .
Then snap a line at the 5" reveal . Then take a 16" rip off 30lb roofing felt a 1" above the line. Repeat over the starter course.
Then do start running the 5" reveal up the roof.
Repeating the 16" strip of felt on every course up the roof nailed into the strapping.
Some old buildings just had the strapping and no soild roof deck.
It was called skip sheathing .
The ones I did all had a roof deck with 30lb felt. Then the strapping, shingles ,16" felt strip up the roof.
Really looking good. Shingle roof is going be the icing on the cake.
I apologize for jumping ahead while you're in shingle mode, but I'm curious how that runoff from the where the two roofs meet is going to get handled.
Quote• Interlay shakes with 18" wide No. 30 ASTM Standard felt. Never interlay shingles with felt (it is already a 3-ply system) UNLESS absolutely required by local building code • Do not position the felt lower than double the exposure of the shake. If the felt does extend below this line it is commonly referred to as 'rot felting' since the felt is susceptible to deterioration from the sun's UV rays. Rot felting can also prevent proper drying of shakes and shingles, thus shortening their life.
The spec is to interweave felt with split shakes but to not interweave with sawn shingles, just put felt on the deck like normal, or like ljohnsaw suggested, lap it just below midline for a double layer.
Well, here is what im doing. Self sealing ice and snow and water barrier on the entire roof. We are in the midst of a major gypsy moth outbreak, so im not creating air spaces for them to infiltrate. Beleive me, there would be thousands. Shingles right on the barrier. If they start looking very weathered, thats cool, the barrier us impervious to fungus and lichen or mold, so the roof itself should last years after the shingles get weather compromised. Right or wrong, thats what is going down. :)
Took me awhile to get going as i had to improvise a peak at rhe ridge beam.
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Looking good 👍👍👍
Sorry about the Gypsy Moth problem.
They engineered the life out of wooden shingle roofs, when they started specifying interlaid felt between rows. I've never seen one of those last over 30 years.
I've seen Cypress Shingle roofs over 150 years old, that would have still been good, but the fasteners were failing. All these were on open purlins.
I put Cedar Shakes on our roof here, when I built it in 1980. The roof has plywood, and felt over that, with 1x4 purlins on top of the felt. The shakes are just on top of the purlins, and are still almost as good as when I put them on. I'll try to find a picture.
Our Cedar Shakes were put on with galvanized 1/2" crown 2" long staples. 1980 was before I ever saw stainless staples for that gun.
These days, I'm shooting stainless staples, with the drivers in the guns modified so the crown of the staples are not shot down into the surface of the wood. It doesn't hurt a thing for the crown to be right on top of the shingle.
For the Cypress shingles, we don't make any wider than about 6". The fasteners are shot right in the middle with one, just like the old roofs I've found. I use one 2-1/2" 15 ga. stainless staple in the lower position, and come back with a row of 2" 16ga. stainless staples in the row of purlins above.
The $265,000 Cypress shingle roof on the Edenton Courthouse, that was put on in the '90's, has shingles starting to split. They were hand nailed tight with two nails towards the outsides of each shingle.
I haven't seen any modern "improvements" on the old ways of installing shingles, except for the metalurgy of the fasteners.
There is a Cypress shingle page on my website.
<Here's the picture of our 40 year old Cedar Shake roof, right after I pressure washed it last Spring. I think that was the fourth time it's been pressure washed so far. It lives under a canopy of huge Pin Oaks, so lichens build up on it after several years.
Shingles on that gable end are 1/2" White Oak pallet lumber.
I'll try to remember to take a picture of the rake tomorrow, where the purlin extensions can be seen.
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Nice looking roof, I hope to still be able to when I get to that age ;D, Happy Birthday! Looks like you rounded another decade.
Here's the picture of the purlins on our Cedar Shake roof. I forget how much I let them protrude, to get some air circulation under them, but I can't complain about how it's worked out.
When we do a Cypress shingle roof, I use the same exposure that was on the roof originally, but go to four layers. The material cost is a small part of the overall job, and labor cost is not different to amount to anything. That one on my website shows 7" exposure, just like the original that there are also pictures of. The original shingles were 21" long. I made the new ones 28".
Don, thanks. As long as I keep having them, I'm good. I always try to do a good days work on my Birthday, and yesterday was no exception, but I won't take more of Jeff's thread about it.
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Any suggestions on how to work on a 8/12 roof? I've got scaffold to get the first few rows, after that, no clue. Its to steep to stay on. For me.
Chicken ladder, the easiest way is to tie two ladders together and flop one on one side of the ridge and the other on the other side.
I've also just put a lag at each end of the ridge and drop ropes down to tie to a cross board that I stand on the edge of.
An 8/12 is right there, you can stick to it but you can't stop on it.
Roof ladder. I use them all the time. I keep one radial arm saw set up with a dado blade, just for that purpose. The "steps" are made for a specific roof slope, and about 30" apart.
The sides are made from a clear 5/4 decking board, ripped down the middle. The steps fit in shallow dadoes, and are screwed through the outside.
I make the ridge hook sort of like a shepard's hook, out of plywood, so it can jump over any ridge when upside down, and turn it over to stay in place.
Wooden shingles won't stay in place on their own on a slope over 6-1/2 in 12. The first old roof I worked on, I couldn't believe that they picked such an odd slope for it, but once we started installing the shingles, I saw exactly their reasoning.
I'll see if I can find a picture of one of my roof ladders. You don't want it any heavier than it needs to be, and it's nice to have level "steps" to sit on.
I found a picture. It's on top of that valley. You can see the hooks on the top. This is one I had made for another roof, but it worked close enough for this one. This is why I charge double for working on roofs.
I never leave the ground without a safety. The trailer was parked there for a secure belay point. The lower ladder was to install a screw eye under the soffit, to tie the next ladder to. I would have to push on that second ladder to help get the roof ladder in place. Rope over the ridge with a pulley is tied to a tractor on the other side of the house, and my safety line goes through that pulley. I wouldn't even go up that first ladder without a safety.
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The other way is to cut triangles the slope of the roof, and fasten steel metal flashing strips to the bottom of the triangles. Fasten them into rafters, and fasten a 2x8 on top of them to work off of.
Leave the metal strips long enough so you can lay shingles over them, and just cut off the protruding part after you finish.
I've done that many times too, but don't think I have a picture.
They sell metal brackets for that purpose, but I've never bought any, preferring to just make them like I want them.
I screw the triangle, out of 2x material, that leaves the walkboard out away from the roof plane some, for comfortable working, to a 2x4 underneath. The 2x4 is flat, and helps to stabilize the foot.
I cut a strip of galvanized flashing a couple of inches wide, and longer than you need it. I put three 1-1/2" roofing tacks through the strip into the underside of the 2x4. The strip continues up the roof for 18" or so, and is nailed into a rafter with three more of the long tacks. That allows the bracket to be pretty loose, but once you get the 2x8 screwed to the triangle, the whole assembly is plenty sturdy.
When it comes time to cut the metal, I ruin a new utility knife blade by cutting the flashing right underneath a shingle.
If this is going to be a wooden shingle roof, I use copper strips, since the wooden shingles will last a lot longer than asphalt shingles, and the steel edge may rust, and leave streaks. I used galvanized strips when I was putting on an asphalt roof.
Yeah, that is more sophisticated ladder works than I would want to do, even when I was in the fire department. :) But Tom, I have to ask, what is the deal with that chimney on the left in your reply#122? I know there is something here I am not understanding. Please learn me up. I have never seen a chimney that ends before it clears the roof. Is it even a chimney? I am perplexed.
Got all the ice and water shield down and started shingling. The shingles are very irregular and unsquare, so I built story poles and screwed them to the edge of the sheeting to run a line every level. The screws on the story poles also set my 3/4" edge over hang
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Hurricane Hazel took off the tops of two of those chimneys. The house was built in 1828. That chimney was missing the top down to the middle of the second story windows. The house had not been lived in since Hurricane Hazel, because one chimney knocked a hole in the roof, and there was no one around that would go up there to fix it.
The soffits are 27' off the ground. The complete chimneys are 43 feet tall.
I had not put that metal shingle roof on, but needed to fix a leaking valley.
I rebuilt the one to the left, all the way to the top, from the same height-mid second story windows.
I ran that one up past the shoulders, as you see it there, and the owners needed to find some more bricks, and some more money. If you look closely, you can see that the joints have not been pointed with Lime Mortar yet, on the rebuilt part.
Fortunately, we had the one complete chimney, to the right, to know how to rebuild the broken ones. That one was leaning out 4" at the shoulder, and had dropped a couple of inches. We jacked, and pushed it back in place, and poured a massive footing under it.
All that chimney work is outlined on my website.
Jeff, I like that method of pulling lines. Looks like actually less trouble than snapping chaulk lines.
If you didn't follow my description of homemade roof jacks, I can make one tomorrow, to show a picture of.
Yesterday at 3:30, having nailed on 11 rows, the writing was on the wall I was going to be way short on shinlgles. Tammy and I threw the dogs and a change of clothes and some eats in a cooler, and were U.P. bound by 3:55. Vic went down and scrounged every shingle he had and loaded them in his gator and had then in the driveway when we pulled in 164 miles later at 7:45. We pulled back in the driveway at home at 9:50. 328 miles for 7 bundles of shingles. I think that will be just enough to peek it out.
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Yes, all of that in the cooler. I aint fixin it. :D
You da Man Jeff!! 8)
Luuking gooood!
Dude! I coulda put you to work last fall, looking good :)
I see the temp braces are off, how does it feel up top?
You could make it move if you try, but I don't notice anything while working on it up there.
That's understandable, you don't weigh much more than a DanG bird. :D
Look great.
It's looking great! I can't wait to see it next year.
What did you use for scaffolding to nail down the shingles?
Jon
DanG that looks good!! Mighty good!!
I worked up from the bottom as far as I could reach, then worked down over the top from the other side using a ladder with ridge hooks. Id put shingles in the rungs of the ladder to hold them up there. It was tedious and my ribs are sore from hanging over the ridge, and my forearms at the elbows are raw. I cut the sleeves out of an old sweat shirt and then pulled them on my arms backwards past the elbows to add some padding. They are pretty sore. Tammy bandaged me up this morning so I can get back after it today.
Scaffold set up
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That looks great..
Pretty hot out there for a michigan boy, but pleased on what I got done so far today. I'll probably do a little more yet.
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Going to have to have a good meal tonight 😊
are you going to have enough shingles? looking great!
I should have enough. I hope I have enough!
What ever works.
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I just went out and did a rough estimate.worst case, I get creative on the ridge cap.
yup. my wife said "oh shat" when she saw the ladder. I told her, "you got this"! yes could even do a length of something to shed the cap water.
The ladder is simply there as a hand hold and to put shingles on. I "scoot" it ahead of me, I work within arms length so I can get to it if I need it. I need to do this until I get to the top. 8 rows. Then the cap rows unless I cut some cedar on the mill. I have some 8ft cedar 6x6s left. About 5 of them. I could prop one back and forth and cut some tapered to the edge boards, rip them at 33.sumpthin degrees and screw and glue them together to make a cap. Then Id have to create a lap at the ends to cover 18' 1.5" in width.
Thinking out loud. :D
In one of the pics I sent you of a Russian board roof the ridge was a timber hollowed out on the underside to fit over the ridge with the head of a dragon carved to project over each end. You know, as long as we're kicking ideas around :D
I think she glanced at the pic. and thought you were standing on it (the ladder), and traversing between the two buildings. :D
Quote from: btulloh on June 27, 2020, 04:06:40 PM
I'm curious how that runoff from the where the two roofs meet is going to get handled.
I meant to answer you, but forgot until just now. The finished dustance between the roof edges is 12 inches. Water is no issue. This is all sand and gravel soil and there is also 3 inches of drain stone used instead of concrete. We have beautiful stones in this area.
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One more finishing row left. I'm whooped. Didnt even care I didnt finish. That's what tomorrows are for.
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Lookingood Jeff
smiley_clapping
To me, there's no prettier roof than wooden shingles.
Complete other than adding either a cedar board, or copper cap. I think copper would be awesome, but I'm pretty sure I'm to cheap!
I added some LED string color choice lighting. We'll see how that works tonight.
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Congratulations on a job well done. Looks great. It's got to feel good being lean and mean with the job complete ready to enjoy and relax
I plan to sit under that pavilion.
Quote from: WDH on July 03, 2020, 08:27:32 PM
I plan to sit under that pavilion.
"Think band shell" ;)
Now you're talkin'. smiley_hillbilly_tub_base dancing-jack smile_banjoman
I have been known to do that.
Well, it worked for food today!
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Looks tasty 😋
I like what you are grilling.
Is that a Blackstone?
Ah, this is beautiful and so well done Jeff. It also appears to be functioning as planned. ;D Do you have any wide evening photos with the lights on and everything (I am guessing) in after dinner relaxing mode? I bet it looks really inviting.
Good on ya folks, a well earned and executed project.
Yes Bill, that's a Blackstone.
Ill take some wider angled pics tonight.
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I took yesterday off. Today? Of course! I invented a new project. A crooked garden shed from the side and crappy lumber I generated hitting hardware in the pavilion beams and sheeting. Ill shingle it with the left over shingles. I built the base out of the treated 2x4s I used for the Pavilion temporary bracing.
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Quote from: Jeff on July 05, 2020, 05:22:05 PM
Yes Bill, that's a Blackstone.
Ill take some wider angled pics tonight.
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You like it? I use a stainless plate with sides on my gas grill. Been thinking of a Black Stone.
Jeff, you need to put a tie on :)
A strongly arched timber, or trunk and branch section, slabbed into a heavy plank, timber screwed to the inside or outside of the rafters at each end?
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Looks good 8)
I needed to get in the shade for a bit.
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I sure do admire your thinkin' there Jeff. What a great way to use up excess and compromised materials. Very creative and whimsical.
Nice job on the pavilion and the accelerated timeline. It's amazing how fast skinny guys can move.
Final touch on the pavilion roof. A 8" copper ridge cap.
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Do you want the copper to get he green patina (in a hurry)? An observation - I had a penny in a little change cup in my Tundra where I normally keep my chapstick. Only the chapstick was cap down and the summer sun melted it a little. It got on the penny and within a few days started to make a green goo. Wondering if you could mix up some Vaseline and salt (since ocean mist make copper turn) to spread on the copper and see what that does.
It will tarnish and be fine
I'm in no hurry to help anything age anymore! :D
Got some more done.
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That thing is obtuse........
That was a bit angular of you.
Quote from: Raider Bill on July 06, 2020, 08:59:02 AM
You like it? I use a stainless plate with sides on my gas grill. Been thinking of a Black Stone.
I do like it for cooking quantities, but it's not a leave outside grill. Its basicslly a giant cast iron fring pan.
Quote from: Old Greenhorn on July 05, 2020, 12:16:00 PMDo you have any wide evening photos with the lights on and everything (I am guessing) in after dinner relaxing mode? I bet it looks really inviting.
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Looks nice.
I made an aluminum cover for my griddle. Used 8020 for the frame and a sheet of aluminum on the top. the 8020 fits tight around the griddle and does a great job of keeping the rodents out. You just have to oil the griddle good before putting lid on. It sits outside all winter long with no issues.
Quote from: Jeff on July 06, 2020, 10:31:55 PM
Quote from: Old Greenhorn on July 05, 2020, 12:16:00 PMDo you have any wide evening photos with the lights on and everything (I am guessing) in after dinner relaxing mode? I bet it looks really inviting.
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Yup I was right. I am pretty surprised it is so well lit with just those string lights! Looks like you could read a book in there! Bet it's even cooler looking with just the table top stove going. What a neat and worthwhile project! Nicely done, indeed.
What are you going to do with the asymmetrical shed? Garden tools?
Yes, garden tools and chemicals.
Garden shed is scalene.
Quote from: WDH on July 07, 2020, 08:11:28 PM
Garden shed is scalene.
adjective:
scalene(of a triangle) having sides unequal in length.
Not a day goes by that I don't learn something on the Forestry Forum!
I thought it was the name of a waitress in Macon.
Probably is :D.
Slider calls him " Mr Big Words" lol
I swear, youse guys is gonna educate me way beyond my intelligence. :D
very tangential, both the thread and the shed! :)
I've got some trim and bats left on the sides and back and then shingles. I like the contrast between the spruce and cedar.
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Wife thought the house was for Doctor Seuss 😂
The whole thing is cattywhompas.
Nicely done! Though the door looks like walking into a coffin.
Jeff's got some hill billy in him
You need to dig a hole and put that over it.
Think of the porta potty $$$ you the pig roast you will save.
That thing is worth at least 3 SGUs :)
The crooked shed is pretty much completed. I have some sealer to put on the outside walls and then need to maneuver it to where it will live. It got heavy!
The hinges came from Tammy Williams Brokaw s Grampa Cliff's old garage. The door pull is just a garden tool.
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If you go into that woodshed, you come out looking like that. Skewed.
how big is the woodstove in there, I hope it drafts ok! :) :) :)
Like the chimney!!
I really like the hinges!
I really like dat crazy house. 8)
This crooked shed is like my own little mystery spot. Michiganders mostly know what that is. A crooked building built on a hill where all kinds of optical dimensional illusions occur. Tourist trap. In the shed, when you look in at the back brace and shelf, they look way crooked, but they are absolutely parallel with the floor. I looked in there and asked myself outloud how i could have screwed that up. A shelf has to be straight. Well, they are. I measured repeatedly. Just an optical illusion created from the other angles.
The crooked shed is completed and moved to it's location. I put a coat of water seal on it yesterday, and moved it today and put it into service.
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that looks great and add lots of interest to your place.
Looking good + all the yard tools in the crooked shed 👍
I like it!! 8)
Another finishing touch to the crooked shed. I found a window latch that came from Tammy Williams Brokaw's Grampa Cliffs garage to use for a door latch.
Crooked shed door latch. - YouTube (https://youtu.be/zKOHw6Eb3_k)
Finding 4 appropriate screws
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Nice touch on the matching hinges, latch and matching screws. Nice video
those hardware components are killer. are they bronze or brass with patina?
I think they are bronze.
Honestly, I don't know.
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looks like a little green showing through. they must be the real deal, and look perfect. looks like the shack the grampa lived in, in Chitty chitty bang bang!
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Pavilion rain - YouTube (https://youtu.be/dG0HJqhSjI8)
No leaks? :D
A little via the open windows. :)
No runs, no drips, no errors so it is a complete success. That Redwood topped frig addition is smiley_thumbsup smiley_thumbsup
During planning for the pavillion I think @Furby (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=577) brought up a board roof. I scanned some pics out of a book and emailed them to Jeff for ideas. Last night while cruising the net I came across a good set of similar pics and one of how those roofs were constructed that I couldn't lay my hands on. You can hit google translate for a bad translation but good enough to understand.
https://www.charmingrussia.ru/2013/10/blog-post_21.html (https://www.charmingrussia.ru/2013/10/blog-post_21.html)
Aside, twice I've come across translation that from slavic "tes" is an axe smoothed board, "tesla" is either the axe or the axeman, haven't figured that out yet. Nicola Tesla was from that region, how about that woodbutchers :)
Shocking! Electrifying! Hard to top it. I'll cut it off there.
More finishing touches. New recycled tire no dig border, expanded to cover the area that would never grow grass, and to the gate leading to our neighbor friends. I think it looks finished now.
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Must be pudding rocks in front of the posts?
Look's good. Mighty good!!
Yup, puddingstones. I love love love using 6a drainstone. We live on a glacial till and stone from this area has all kinds of stuff in it. Tammy and Jeremy got me a rock tumbler from harbor freight on my birthday to polish some of the stones I pick out. Here are some of the first batch about half done. It takes about a month.
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Jeremy's "grunt" work looks good and was a nice anniversary gift. :)
Those stones are beautiful and I even picked out a favorite. ;D
which one?
I knew you liked "rock" and roll, I had no idea you were a "stoner"! :o :D :)
Yes you did. :D
Real nice Jeff. 8) What's your next project?
I need 3 maybe more trees removed back behind the pole barn before I reveal that, and due to oak wilt concerns, that can't happen in my yard until freeze up.
MMmmm, a tractor and sawmill shed. 8)
Quote from: Jeff on August 02, 2020, 08:53:52 AMwhich one?
Dat's easy....da pretty one. :)
update on how the rough freshly sawn spruce and whitepine are behaving. The rafters came 3 to a log, centering and leveling the pith. I expected the outside beams to move more than the center, but I'd say the opposite, but negligible by looking at the joints. We have had a lot of hot dry windy days, so mucho drying has taken place.
Looks like the tightly installed whitepine decking have as much as 3/8" gaps. Looks good. Can you see the bullet? (It'snot real clear)
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Nice job!
Still fully functional on New Years Eve!
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Looking good all lit up 👍
Did a little work on the pavilion cabin complex this week. I tore the deck off the cabin and replaced it with 3 yrds of stone.
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Looking good.
It looks like a nice place for us to hangout at! 🤩😁
Da porch that disappeared.
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I wonder who can be the first to identify all 4 of these guys? smiley_headscratch
Sorry, as one is unidentifiable.
:D This serves to illustrate the value and joy of attending the Pig Roast events. You are able to put faces on names and make lifelong friends.
I have already gotten a message from a member who knew all 4 (even the unidentifiable one). ;D
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Don't think I've ever seen him from the front :D
Quote from: Don P on April 03, 2021, 10:50:44 PM
Don't think I've ever seen him from the front :D
There is a picture somewhere of you and I standing under the mack bulldog at logging congress in Madison Wisconsin. :)
Furby and swampdonkey I can get, the one on the left??
You got 2 of them old Fords? Must of missed the second one somehow. ::)
All looks good.
The guy on the left? Not to be mean, but truthfully, the guy is just plain fat, old, and a bit elfish.
Quote from: Magicman on April 03, 2021, 07:33:26 PM
Da porch that disappeared.
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I wonder who can be the first to identify all 4 of these guys? smiley_headscratch
Hey you! :)
Do I get a prize?
The elderly statesman on the left is none other than NC's Mr. Paul Randolph. Fat Olde Elf to many.
GAB
Was it my clue? :D yes, Fat Olde Elf. Paul and I missed our first pigroast together in many years last year. I hope we don't do that again! :)
what are the dimensions of the wooden plaques under the roof (soffit) 6x6?
Size of the wooden plagues can be found HERE (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=18953.0)
I betcha Jeff's has more room too. Or he will find room. :D
Mine is shown somewhere in that thread. Reply 1120.
On page 55, of the link above, Reply #1090, Jeff shows a video of the blocks that were attached at that time.