The Forestry Forum

General Forestry => Timber Framing/Log construction => Topic started by: MishaZ on December 22, 2020, 06:13:35 PM

Title: Pavilion in FL
Post by: MishaZ on December 22, 2020, 06:13:35 PM
Need help locating a local yard that caries timber other than PT Yellow Pine (unless PT is what you recommend in FL?)

Hello all, new to the forum and am a DIY. Iím always hunting for a new project, just canít sit around idle. Not to mention I have three kids under 10 in the house, projects are a good distraction. In fact i just finished building from scratch a large playground for those three kids as part of my COVID project. Will attach a pic to establish baseline credibility (http://data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7)

Iím writing to you all as i am looking to start another backyard project. Looking to build a Pavilion around 14íx16í. IĎm was thinking of doing Timber Framing using mortise and tenon joinery for the first time. Alternatively would use Post and Beam with metal braces. Never built a pavilion before, but doing something for the first time is not a deterrent. Love to build with my hands and figuring things out.

The issue I am having is selecting the wood for the project. I live in Tampa, FL and would like to keep the project somewhat cost effective. Most abundant material is Pressure Treated Yellow Pine. But talking to one of the mils, was told that itís not best for Timber Framing as it will work and check as it ages due to weather (rain and heat). From my research Douglass Fur and Cypress are other commonly used woods for timber framing. Cypress being closest to native ??? I read on another site that FL Cypress (Pond Cypress) is not that good for structural work.

Need your advice on wood to use, framing style to use and advice on local place (or close enough) where I could get something other than PT Yellow Pine. Iím thinking of using 8x8 posts, so the place would need to carry large dimensions.  Recommendation on Post and Beam vs Timber Framing is also welcome.

Sorry for the long intro!  You don't know what you don't know and I want to know ;) 

Mike


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/63723/IMG_5128.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1608678427)
 



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Title: Re: Pavilion in FL
Post by: Don P on December 22, 2020, 08:07:04 PM
Really, yellow pine is one of the lesser checking species and for the posts treated is not a bad thing. Large timbers will check, that's just part of it. You can lessen the checking by drying a bit slower, out of the sun but with good airflow so that the core can lose moisture and size at a closer rate to the rapidly shrinking outer shell. I've had luck reducing checking when I had to put something up green and exposed if I put on something breathable but that would slow the surface drying, even something like Thompsons. You don't want an impervious film like varnish or paint on green timbers or it'll trap moisture and cause rot.

Within reason just about any species can be used, simply size the pieces correctly for the loads and strength of the material.

Personally I'm not a purist, either method will work, do what makes you happy.
Title: Re: Pavilion in FL
Post by: ellmoe on December 22, 2020, 09:16:18 PM
We do sell some untreated pine for pergolas , etc. , cypress is what is most commonly used by our customers in Florida.
Title: Re: Pavilion in FL
Post by: MishaZ on December 24, 2020, 09:44:14 AM
So everything aside, Iíll ask a more direct question.

Pressure Treated Pine or Cypress ???
Title: Re: Pavilion in FL
Post by: PC-Urban-Sawyer on December 24, 2020, 02:28:09 PM
Cypress
Title: Re: Pavilion in FL
Post by: Raider Bill on December 25, 2020, 01:17:05 PM
Cypress
Title: Re: Pavilion in FL
Post by: kantuckid on December 26, 2020, 08:22:26 AM
Cypress story: My wife & I canoed the Okefenokee Swamp in the early 1970's. There in you canoe and camp per assigned routes that are color marked in the swamp. The only solid ground overnight spot we had in our 4 days there was on an island which had a hunting camp (logging camp before that with log haul routes outbound) with a nice but basic lodge left for before WWII, I think it was said to have been built during the depression, like 1930's. It had cypress heartwood shingles on the roof and outer walls, cypress floors and framing. They looked like they'd been done recently in spite of the hot, humid swamp environment.
Cypress is your wood of choice if optimum figures into this project.
Google Cypress lumber/logs and FL sources with websites will pop up. 
Title: Re: Pavilion in FL
Post by: MishaZ on December 28, 2020, 11:41:43 AM
Well, Cypress it is.  I found a local place that can get it sourced within three days.  Can get it rough or S4S delivered for a flat rate of $75.  It is going to be green.  I have read many of threads on Green vs KD framing and there are many of opinions.  I donít really have the luxury of waiting around for months to let it dry naturally and the place Iím getting it from does not do KD.  From what i have read, green is easier to work with, but Cypress will lose quite a bit of moisture.  

That stated, here is the next ďsimple and directĒ question.  Which framing style should I go with:

* Post and Beam (hardware) - If so, there are follow-ups on hardware; external plates, internal knife hidden plate, etc.  Any brands you recommend?  Iíd probably still do a diminished haunch or shoulder so the post would take the brunt of the load and not the mechanical joint.

* Timber Framing (mortise & tenon) - full disclosure, never done this before, but really wanted to try as final product looks something to be proud of for long time and I get to learn a new trade.  But is it too much too soon?!?!?!  I have no specialty tools.  Will need to get framing chisel and slick, not too big of a deal.  I donít know if I can justify spending the $$$ on the chain mortiser.  So will have to drill out and carve out the mortises by hand.  Donít have 15Ē circular saw, but 10-1/4Ē are reasonable in $.

Ohhh, and there is a matter of this being in FL where there are hurricane code requirements...  Will M&T be sufficient to comply with hurricane code requirements?  Hurricane rafter ties are not the most attractive looking things.
Title: Re: Pavilion in FL
Post by: Don P on December 28, 2020, 11:51:49 AM
It sounds like you would like to do timberframe, go for it. There is no need for expensive tools, they make it faster is all. When people comment on my 16" saw I tell them that I have a hand held 28" one too, their eyes get big and I reach over and grab a handsaw  :D.
Title: Re: Pavilion in FL
Post by: kantuckid on December 28, 2020, 02:55:55 PM
I see no reason unless (it's your own desire to play at timber frame joints) to not simply use good carpentry construction details such as the pictures show above? Hot dipped galvanized bolts installed via hand tools and some way to saw wood and make the holes. 
If your not fixed on the source mentioned, look at CRACKER SAWMILL / D&J LUMBER - Cracker Sawmill - Home (http://www.CrackerSawmill.com) in Williston, FL. 
Title: Re: Pavilion in FL
Post by: Don P on December 28, 2020, 05:14:24 PM
Ohhh, and there is a matter of this being in FL where there are hurricane code requirements...  Will M&T be sufficient to comply with hurricane code requirements?  Hurricane rafter ties are not the most attractive looking things.
That depends on what the requirements are, please post them or a link to those codes.

I can get to the strength required of a hurricane tie here by using a concealed structural screw or lag. Most of these types of codes require a level of performance rather than a certain product. Also see if this is small enough to be viewed as an exempt accessory structure.

Title: Re: Pavilion in FL
Post by: kantuckid on December 29, 2020, 06:54:40 AM
Is this a playground? I read pavillion which I think of as a shelter house roof sort of thing? but I see pics of a kids playground which is it?