We finally got our new outside cyclone dust collector installed and running. It an Oneida Industrial Series 3 phase with an airlock, with Duct Incorporated Snap Lock heavy gauge stainless steel 12 inch duct.
It is quite a step up from our old system, which choked on the chips from 55hp planer. This dust collector runs several machines at once, including our sawmill.
It was a several weeks build, but went smoothly. The airlock lets me dump right into a dumpster, no vacuum seal needed. Here is some walnut sawdust coming out of the airlock and falling into the dumpster.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/Screen_Shot_4~0.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1612495433)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/Screen_Shot_1_jpg.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1612495507)
Here is the outside routing to the sawmill through a 6 inch flex hose.
Its pretty tall, about 14 feet or so.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/Screen_Shot_2.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1612495638)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/Screen_Shot_3.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1612495746)
I did a series of three videos on the build, from start to finish. There were lots and lots of parts, thousands and thousands of dollars, and lots of time spent getting everything just right.
Here are the three videos, in order. I just watched all three again, and it's amazing how much work we had to put into it. By the end of it, we were dead tired, especially since Mother Nature decided to freeze us with a never-ending cold front. The main thing is, the stupid thing works better than expected and should last a very long time. Episode 1 was the basic assembly of the cyclone and stand, Episode 2 is the pouring and mounting on footers and erecting the whole thing outside, and Episode 3 is the installation of the ductwork and the test run.
Episode 1:
Episode 1 - How to Install a Professional Dust Collector - YouTube (https://youtu.be/f1c-1YA5YTA)
Episode 2:
Episode 2 - How to Install a Professional Dust Collector System - YouTube (https://youtu.be/a86nvZ2Bsck)
Episode 3:
Episode 3 - How to Install a Professional Dust Collector, Final Episode - YouTube (https://youtu.be/AiXRkxU3LB8)
Funny, just watched your youtube video on my feed. Didn't know that was you. Great looking setup you have. Can I borrow that jointer?!!!
Nice setup and well done. I would guess a couple bucks. I just bought a 4" gate w/snap lock 40+dollars wanted to match the others I have and the only plastic one broke.
Yes, this system wasn't cheap. The blast gates were the least expensive pieces. :D Just the air lock alone was $2,800.
At one point, we had three truck deliveries in one day, and we just kept packing crates into our building until we could barely walk around. Pallets of stuff everywhere, and we were starting to get worried about how long it would take to get back in operation once we started. So we came up with a strategy where we didn't shut our system down until the last minute.
It was, even for us, a big job. I'm glad it's over.
What is the exact job of the air lock. Does it meter it out when it dumps in the waste container so it doesn't blow all over ?
Wow, that is nicely done YH! Beautiful first class job and I bet it is more of a pleasure to run your equipment now. You just have to be careful of small children and animals in the shop that they don't get sucked up. :D
Sometimes it is very complicated to keep a system simple and clean and it came out great! Most impressive system. Just bolt it together and stick it up! All you need is some simple hand tools, right? :D :D :D :D
Again, very nicely done, but I think you need a bigger dumpster. ;D
Just watched Ep.3 last night , nicely done . State of the Art . :o
Wow, that is a top of the line system, nicely done! I have a little size envy going on after watching the videos :D. We're just installing our first dust collection system, a might bit smaller.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/49257/image001~67.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1612539386)
I like it all, but I particularly like the air lock. Great System.
Wow great setup. Oneida definitely makes the best in class equipment. Never saw an airlock before.
There are really two kinds of dust collector systems. The first and most common is the one where the debris and air mix and go through the impeller and into collection bins, bags or just on the ground. The impeller is called a "trash blower" because it has been designed with loose tolerances to allow debris to pass through with no damage. However, the efficiency is low because of the loose tolerances.
The much more efficient system uses a high tolerance blower that can't tolerate any trash and must only pass clean air. So a cyclone or similar filter is used to clean the air before it reaches the impeller, and it must be on the suction side. Due to this, the whole precleaner system must operate under vacuum, and this is done by using sealed drums and hose. You've probably seen these when looking at cyclone systems. However, these are very inconvenient to clean as the drum or catch barrel must be airtight and resealed after every cleaning.
An airlock is a specialty rotating flapper that looks like a paddle wheel. As it rotates the flaps maintain an airtight seal, much like a revolving door in a fancy hotel or the airport. The airlock can maintain an airtight seal while revolving, and sawdust can enter and exit into a non sealed dumpster, just like people entering and exiting from revolving door.
So it allows the best of both worlds, a high efficiency clean air blower, and the ability to dump sawdust into an open container.
Thanks for explaining that very well. Excellent job on the videos. The top of the line system you have looks absolutely fantastic and seems to be worth the money
Yellowhammer, that dust collection system looks like a gem. Congratulations on a job well done!
It took me many years of blowing sawdust out of my nose to figure out that I needed to get serious about not wrecking my lungs. The virus lockdowns gave me the opening needed and I finally pulled the trigger on a system.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/19307/Ductwork.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1612584932)
My son is helping me install the five drops from the main 8" duct. The woodworking equipment is all shoved over to the cyclone, so that we could assemble the pipes. The jointer and table saw make a central island in the shop, with most of the 6" drops above that. Tonight I was setting up the 5" pipe to the table saw, got tired and fed the stove it's last load of firewood, and will finish up the hookups tomorrow. It was a big job, in both time and money.
Winnipeg is at -40 degrees tonight, so this system circulates air inside the shop. Pumping 1500 cfm. of nice warm air into the frozen Prairie just isn't good design up here. Another thing that I was told to do, was to allow for bleed air. The 8" to 4" reducer on the far left hand side, at the end of the main trunk, is normally open. That air allows for a constant minimum flow of air to enable the cyclone to keep spinning sawdust out at maximum efficiency.
My system is 'amateur night' compared to yours Robert.
Thanks for taking the time to make up the videos and sharing so openly with all of us.
Does the airlock continually rotate?
I'm not familiar with one.
Being a tighter system are you able to get the same material removal while moving less CFM of air? Less waste air is I guess what I am asking?
Southside, I don't know, mine is twice the hp of my other system and moves at least 4 times the air. I went from a 6" outlet and pipe to 12". Some of that may be the pipe, and some of that is due to the much higher efficiency of the blower. Of course, I can close some of the blast gates to limit airflow to pretty much what I want.
The airlock continually rotates. It's uses a little electric 3 phase motor through a gearbox. The paddle wheel inside the chamber rotates very slowly, maybe 1 rev per second or less (I didn't time it.)
The cyclone had to be upgraded to work with it, a staging hopper was added to its length to store temporary sawdust if the airlock couldn't keep up.
Also, the airlock allows the attachment of a transfer blower if we wanted to add it later.
Andries, that looks like very nice system. Whenever someone spends the money on the true dust collector pipe, then money is involved. Especially, when in the back of the room is something with the name "Oneida" written on it. However, like many things in life, the price is worth it.
@boonesyard Is that Clearvue system? If so what model?
@Andries what is the HP of your blower motor?
YellowHammer that is quite the system there. I need to use something other than a shop vacuum! :D Someday!
I've gotta decide whether to use an old Grizzley 2 bagger and replace the bags with filters and/or old add a cyclone. Actually I gotta get off my butt and do something! ;D
It has a 3hp. 220v. Baldor motor on it.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/19307/20180802_173220.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1540051571)
What might be more important is the cfm that the system can produce. This model is rated at 1500 cfm at a distance of 10' from the inlet with the complete cyclone and filter attached.
The cyclone is completely worth it. I used a General single bag collector for years and that stinker was a dust pump.
I've got about $1000 in ducting and about $1750 in the used Oneida collector. I got off cheap on the parts because I shopped around a lot.
Also, my little one-man woodshed is served really well by this sized machine.
Yellowhammer has his LT40 and steroid loaded jointer, moulder, planers and straight line rip saws hooked up to his, and that system will handle it no problem.
It's a question of "designed to fit scale".
Oneida System like YH has only comes in three phase systems. The next best system down from the three phase is the high vac five. Basically same system in single phase. and it has a air lock. On the specs on cfm they give you two. Total and actual cfm. When I had talked to a gal named Linda from there that is very knowledgeable she had said the high vac five would be able to handle the chips out of a the system fine for a four sided moulder planer ( not the size of YH 😂) but her concern was the filteration of the fine dust accumulation. Due to so much. My takeaways from these industrial models is if you are filtering in your shop this system is hands down the best! and if you have regulations in your area and are piping it outside that it's precisely metered into a hopper without blowing dust all over outside.
Thanks Andries for the information. Very nice system. I know you'll enjoy the cleaner air and less dust film on everything in the shop.
I hesitated to post this here, but it is on the other side of the spectrum form Yelowhammer's gorgeous system. I am just getting started in this world of wood and really had nothing for dust collecting just a week ao. I had gotten parts and stuff and was working up to it. This week I slapped in my first system. It is ugly, only 4" lines, and I reached a little on the design, but it works.
Most of my equipment is upstairs so I ran the main lines along the ceiling and the blower and collection bag are up there also. But I didn't want to have to carry the bags of dust and chips down the stairs. SO I added a collection barrel down on the floor.
This is the upstairs setup:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/52103/IMG_20210204_201230293.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1612667408)
You will see that the collections lines are on the ceiling as you would expect, but the line then goes down through the floor. There is a pre-collection barrel on the floor.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/52103/IMG_20210206_171230740.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1612667414)
The debris comes down the line on the right and falls in the barrel, the air goes back up on the left line, through the blower and into the dust bags. Here is another view:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/52103/IMG_20210204_200442034.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1612667387)
It's cut off just before you see the barrel on the floor, but you get the idea. When I laid this all out, I could not find anyone who had tried this barrel system out to tell me if if worked. I just took a chance because carrying all that down the stairs over and over was not a pleasant thought. Take steps to save steps, right? In fact, one of the two barrel covers I have like the one in the photo was given to my by a friend. I asked him how it worked and he said "I dunno, I think it's a gimmick, but have fun trying it."
Well I can tell you this thing works and I am pretty happy with my entry level system. As I said, I have another barrel cover and if I get to the point I am moving a lot more ships, I believe I will try daisy chaining the barrels and see how that works out. It would be pretty easy to do. I just have to but another garbage can of the correct specs. These are a big larger than the average homeowner cans, but made in the USA so I'm sure I should be able to find one.
Anyway, that's my hokey little entry level system. It's nothing like the work of art the YH has built, but I am on the road in that direction should the work dictate a need. It's all a learning process, right? ;D
Quote from: samandothers on February 06, 2021, 10:53:00 AM
@boonesyard Is that Clearvue system? If so what model?
@Andries what is the HP of your blower motor?
YellowHammer that is quite the system there. I need to use something other than a shop vacuum! :D Someday!
I've gotta decide whether to use an old Grizzley 2 bagger and replace the bags with filters and/or old add a cyclone. Actually I gotta get off my butt and do something! ;D
Yes, it's a Clearvue Max. 5hp and 16" impeller. I looked at Oneida as well, hard. Had a few issues with the salesman when I was dealing with Oneida, but they make a great product. Saved a few bucks going this was, but i didn't give up anything in performance. Just got everything finished up today and and tried it a bit, it really SUCKS 🙃
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/49257/20210206_161428.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1612672154)
You guys have some nice systems and tools. I know what you mean about salesman at Oneida, I got tired of dealing with them, and went straight to the engineering manager. Each salesman quoted me a different unit, different options, and different prices. It was a clown show.
Old greenhorn, I know what you are saying about the garbage can separator. I bought one from somewhere online and it wouldn't fit any of my garbage cans. So I never used it, and I just threw it away. Just like your buddy, I thought it was a gimmick but it sounds like I missed the boat on that one.
Robert, that is one sweet setup! In hindsight, I wish that I would have designed my system with an external dump and a rotary airlock. It sure beats a direct dump.
The more we use this system, the more the pain of installation fades and the more we can appreciate the extra airflow and suction. For example, the segmented track of our straight line rip saw, which is oil lubricated, always had sawdust stick and pack on it. Imagine a bulldozer track that gets caked with mud. So every week or so, we had to take time out to clean the packed sawdust off the track, which was a pain. Now, not only does the sawdust not pack, it actually gets cleaned off. It's never worked better.
Same thing with our sawmill, I haven't had to clean out under it since we installed the system. Normally I have to clean out the residual sawdust very week or two.
Thanks boonesyard. I lean toward Clearvue for a cyclone. Very nice systems one and all.
Great looking system Robert (@yellowhammer). Having designed and installed industrial air pollution control systems for over 40 years, I know the hardest part is layout, sizing, and balancing the ductwork. Yours looks great!! Did the ductwork come from Oneida? Looks like it was prefab sections. Assuming you ordered it that way, you did a great job of laying out the length of each piece. I know there is a lot of flexibility when connecting to equipment with flex hose but it still has to be pretty close.
Thanks for the compliments. No, we didn't' use the Oneida ductwork, I used a different company, Duct Incorporated, in Clemmons, NC, that had better quality pipe for about the same money. They had a very experienced person for me to talk to, which is rare these days, a guy named Patrick Russell, Sales Manager, and they do a very quick turnaround. It's an excellent company to deal with.
We got lucky in that Patrick and I were able to work the lengths pretty close to full length, but they have a really cool telescoping adapter called a "Slip Joint" where I could cut a piece of standard pipe about the right length, several inches long or short, then slide the slip joint section on it, adjust it to the correct right length and snap the clamp on it. The clamp has a big O ring that fits over the edge of the joint, so it forms an air tight seal and can be moved and adjusted any time later. It's a great system, and actually easier there cutting and sealing conventional duct. It means things can be easily adjusted later if a new machine is added, or changed position.
I tried to deal with Oneida, and couldn't even get through their phone system. Got lucky and found a 3hp Dust Cop at a community college that they were selling, and found it had never been hooked up. Still had to replace the motor, as it turned out to be 3 phase. But makes me a great system, with 6" pipe all over the shop, what is really great is I can plane a whole pile of lumber with no dust on the floor, and the shop stays mostly clean. I have added a over the table saw dust hood, and increased the connection size from 4" to 6" on as many machines as possible, except the planer, as it does a good job with 4". My little system doesn't even come close to comparing to YH's but I am happy with it. One thing, put my vent up on the outside of the shop, about doubled my suction compared to running through the filter back into the shop, and cleaner air as well.
I've been looking at the Festool dust collectors myself. Something compact, because I only worry about the stuff floating in the air. Planer chips I just sweep up. It's a bit premature at this stage, since I haven't got the shop up yet. With a wood stove for heat, you really have to get the dust out of the air, and for me that is mainly from sanding. That aerosolized fine dust can explode like cooking gas. :)
https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop/tools/workshop/dust-collection/dust-extractors/111500-festool-ct-48-ac-hepa-dust-extractor-with-autoclean?item=ZT576761
and this add-on.
https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop/tools/workshop/dust-collection/parts-and-accessories/77011-festool-ct-cyclone-pre-separator?item=ZT204083
Swampdonkey, you might look at outside wood furnaces, have a neighbor who bought one for his shop, nice unit, has a blower on the combustion air, thing really burns well. Keep the fire outside your shop.
I'm big proponent of exhausting air outside, no matter how much cold or hot air comes in to replace it. I've had some internal systems and hated taking a sawdust bath whenever I had to change bags or bins. Some of the places I work with have inside dust collection systems, and even though they are supposedly HEPA systems, there is always caked fine dust around them, on the rafters or floor, indicting they are not stopping all the dust
Of course, sawdust is a fire hazard, and the finer it is, the worse it is.
It's also a health hazard, and I've seen lots of professional woodworkers with the old "sawdust cough" as they tell me they don't need a dust collection system.
Having a good system also makes for a much cleaner work environment, as every bucket of sawdust that goes outside into a dumpster is one less buck of sawdust I have to sweep up inside.
Quote from: SwampDonkey on February 18, 2021, 04:32:01 AM
I've been looking at the Festool dust collectors myself. Something compact, because I only worry about the stuff floating in the air. Planer chips I just sweep up. It's a bit premature at this stage, since I haven't got the shop up yet. With a wood stove for heat, you really have to get the dust out of the air, and for me that is mainly from sanding. That aerosolized fine dust can explode like cooking gas. :)
https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop/tools/workshop/dust-collection/dust-extractors/111500-festool-ct-48-ac-hepa-dust-extractor-with-autoclean?item=ZT576761
and this add-on.
https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop/tools/workshop/dust-collection/parts-and-accessories/77011-festool-ct-cyclone-pre-separator?item=ZT204083
Man, those Festool's are pricey for their capacity. As I am now well into the entry level I am learning a lot as I go. Putting dedicated hoods on the machines help a lot, but it is hard to get it all. General collection for things like a sanding bench requires a lot ore thought and is less effective unless you get really fancy. Yesterday I put a dust hood behind the small stuff I was sanding and it worked 'just ok' and for larger things like table tops it is really hard to suck dust out of the air. What DOES work well is attaching a vacuum directly to the dust port on the individual tool, then combining that with a general hood for anything that escapes. You still won't get it all by it greatly reduces any flying dust.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/52103/IMG_20200915_143432336.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1600210542)
In the photo above you can see the white bench on the loft, that is my sanding bench and the chimney passes close by with the stove nearly directly below. The chimney gets covered in dust (well, up to recently when I added improvements) and I just blow it off if I notice it, it is not a problem. The stove gets some too and if it is left too long, the dust turns brown, then black. I blow that off when I notice it too. I thought about dust when I put in the stove, but I have 17' ceilings and am just one guy working, so it really hasn't worked out to be an issue. Now with the system coming together my 'general dust conditions' have improved tremendously and I am not even 'there' yet.
BTW, When I bought the planer the seller threw in a old 110v 1/2 small roll around dust collector which I didn't really need. Man that thing is the cat's pajamas for my shop because the planer and joiner are down on the floor, so I just use the small one. I have found it saves me a LOT of cleanup time, plus the planer head doesn't clog or re-cut chip, better boards. It only take a minute to roll it in, hook it on, and then another minute to put it away. Much easier than sweeping bending and picking up. For the summer months I may make a cover for outside the window and put it outside blowing into a garden trailer to save unload time. That is, if I have a decent planeing job.
You may have noticed the pre-collector in the photos on my thread and I ma really pleased with how that is working out and it is easy the shove a hand truck under it and roll it right out the door to the compost pile.
Whatever you do, I'd suggest taking your time thinking it through. Dust collectors are a much more important and expensive consideration than I ever thought. This is the one rare project where I am building it with just a general idea as I go to see how it responds and functions, then adjusting my plan. That is my biggest take-away from this experience. (Oh yeah, and get a remote switch!)
Guys, my operation is small potatoes, if I were in your shoes I'd do the same as you're doing. I'm not trying to suggest you do otherwise. But I don't kick up huge volumes of dust that this Festool system can't do an ample job on. Your scale of operations is different than mine. :) Definitely going to have my stove indoors, firewood to. Have for 30 years in my old shop. Shop is 20' x 24' x 8' ceiling. Quick and easy to heat with a little stove. Maybe 2 cord wood. My old shop used 1 cord of wood, narrower shop.
Quote from: SwampDonkey on February 18, 2021, 04:32:01 AM
I've been looking at the Festool dust collectors myself. Something compact, because I only worry about the stuff floating in the air. Planer chips I just sweep up. It's a bit premature at this stage, since I haven't got the shop up yet. With a wood stove for heat, you really have to get the dust out of the air, and for me that is mainly from sanding. That aerosolized fine dust can explode like cooking gas. :)
https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop/tools/workshop/dust-collection/dust-extractors/111500-festool-ct-48-ac-hepa-dust-extractor-with-autoclean?item=ZT576761
and this add-on.
https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop/tools/workshop/dust-collection/parts-and-accessories/77011-festool-ct-cyclone-pre-separator?item=ZT204083
About a year ago I added an Oneida Dust Deputy and was very surprised at how well it works for something that looks so cheesy. I use it in conjunction with my shop vac (with bag installed) for all my sanding and track saw usage.
I added a lower profile Dust Stopper under my miter saw bench with a dedicated small shop vac and that works nice as well. I don't think it's as good as the Dust Deputy but good enough.
I've been using my shop vac in conjunction with my ROS for years and would never go back. Adding the little cyclone inline makes it more of a hassle to move around but keeps the shop vac bag from filling up, especially in conjunction with the track saw.
Enough fine dust will still get through to eventually plug your shop vac filter, which is why I like having the bag in the shop vac.
Alan
Quote from: alan gage on February 18, 2021, 10:38:13 AM
About a year ago I added an Oneida Dust Deputy and was very surprised at how well it works for something that looks so cheesy. I use it in conjunction with my shop vac (with bag installed) for all my sanding and track saw usage.
I added a lower profile Dust Stopper under my miter saw bench with a dedicated small shop vac and that works nice as well. I don't think it's as good as the Dust Deputy but good enough.
I've been using my shop vac in conjunction with my ROS for years and would never go back. Adding the little cyclone inline makes it more of a hassle to move around but keeps the shop vac bag from filling up, especially in conjunction with the track saw.
Enough fine dust will still get through to eventually plug your shop vac filter, which is why I like having the bag in the shop vac.
Alan
Just a comment on how well just a basic shop vac connected to a ROS can do:
I'm sensitive to cedar dust and my nose will start to run almost immediately with any hand sanding or table saw cutting. But I used to build cedar strip canoes and it wasn't uncommon for me to spend 3 hours non-stop sanding a hull with my ROS connected to shop vac. I could do that with no respirator or mask and had no issue whatsoever. When done myself and my clothes would be clean and there was not sign of dust floating in the air. Not saying it's perfect but pretty darn good.
Alan
I believe that venting to the outside would be the best but I cannot do it. I purchased an air filter from Grizzly and it has helped a lot with the fine dust. I turn it on when I enter the shop and turn it onto a timer for a couple of hours when I leave the shop. There doesn't seem to be anywhere near as much fine dust now. Also I use a dust collector hooked to individual machines.
I have a Bosch ROS, bought the good anti vibration model, has both a 5 and 6" pad, and the dust port is just right for my vac to plug into. Always use the vac when sanding, and it makes a huge difference. Also have a belt sander that works with it, but have not used it since getting a wide belt sander. Hate to think how much I have in dust collection, considerable amount when you add up everything, but better than dusty lungs. Be nice if YH would post the cost of his setup, blow your mind compared to a little old woodshop setup.
Quote from: farmfromkansas on February 21, 2021, 08:42:46 AMBe nice if YH would post the cost of his setup, blow your mind compared to a little old woodshop setup.
$20K+ got the whole mess bought, shipped, assembled, installed and operational. That includes concrete, footing, aftermarket high rise rack, stand, cyclone, clean out hopper, airlock, blower motor, switches, electrical panels, crate after crate of stainless snap lock ductwork, and a bunch of other stuff.
That is not counting our labor, which would have been about a couple weeks, not including the initial design phase for the dust collector and the ductwork.
It was not a real do it yourself project, but we got through it.
I'm not a fan (no pun intended) of blowing my dust collector outside. Yes, it makes cleanup/emptying easier, but it also blows my conditioned shop air outside. I have year round heat and AC in my shop and at 750 to 1200 CFM I'm not going to try and condition outside air.
Aside form the initial cost of around $2k for my collector I've gone the low budget route and it works well for my single person operation.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11043/DustCollection.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1518048271)
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Quote from: YellowHammer on February 21, 2021, 02:34:22 PM
Quote from: farmfromkansas on February 21, 2021, 08:42:46 AMBe nice if YH would post the cost of his setup, blow your mind compared to a little old woodshop setup.
$20K+ got the whole mess bought, shipped, assembled, installed and operational. That includes concrete, footing, aftermarket high rise rack, stand, cyclone, clean out hopper, airlock, blower motor, switches, electrical panels, crate after crate of stainless snap lock ductwork, and a bunch of other stuff.
That is not counting our labor, which would have been about a couple weeks, not including the initial design phase for the dust collector and the ductwork.
It was not a real do it yourself project, but we got through it.
Absolutely nice system and videos on it YH. If you want to do big boy things you got to spend some big boy money and you can make some big boy money 😜. No risk no goodies 😂
For a one man show , do these systems have a cut off valve at each machine or are they sized large enough to constantly pull air from all machines ?
Both, in that we sized it to pull air from all machines in each work location simultaneously, but all machines have blast gates. There must be a certain amount of airflow constantly flowing to have the blower centrifuge and spin out the dust most efficiently. Generally, this system needs at least a couple ports open at all times. Most times, if we are working inside the shop, all the gates are open, so we don't have to mess with them.
We've tried several smaller systems, tried tying multiple systems together, and all became obsolete quickly as our demands grew. All became a pain to empty, and all took up significant or valuable inside space. We would fill up a 55 gallon drum in few minutes from the big double sided 25 inch planer, or the sawmill, sometimes which are running both at the same time. Remember, one of our first iterations was open blowing into a dump truck. The best way to describe the flow would be a snowblower.
Our biggest producing machines of sawdust are in non air conditioned spaces anyway, such as our sawmill, edger and planer. Keeping the sawdust from my face and off the ground is the goal.
The key is that we don't really do "woodworking" in the shop anymore, it has become a "wood production" shop, and can easily generates a ton of chips a day.
Quote from: trimguy on February 21, 2021, 05:44:33 PM
For a one man show , do these systems have a cut off valve at each machine or are they sized large enough to constantly pull air from all machines ?
In my one man shop all of the ports have blast gates. Most of the time I have 2 or 3 open all at once and my system still works well. The exception is when I run my planer I need to close them all except at the planer due to the large size and quantity of chips coming of.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/19307/20210217_123504.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1614046933)
My one person shop, showing five ports to different machines.
The best tips for a collection system came from a design guy at Blastgate in Detroit.
* ducting should be like the fastest fast lane on a highway - smooth, straight and if there's a curve, it has to be long and gradual.
* a system's power is rated in cubic feet per minute. More is usually better.
* "drops" from the main trunk should be horizontal for at least a foot before taking a slow 90° turn down to a machine.
* flex hose creates three times the flow resistance of a steel pipe.
* a cyclone achieves maximum efficiency with a long straight pipe feeding into it. Efficiency is more than 96% ( dust removed ) with a well designed system.
On the collector cyclone remote switch, there's a sticker.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/19307/20210214_123339.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1614046919)
The motor is a Baldor industrial 3 hp. and like most big electrical motors, it generates its most heat when it's starting.
Yellowhammer has a system that's perfect for lumber production in an open air scenario. Mine is made to keep the heated air in a shop while one guy (me) is noodling away on small woodworking projects. The jointer and planer will fill the dust bag in about 5 hours of work.
Small amounts of dust come from the table sander, router table and ROS.
That's when I the give the big yellow Gorilla a break and switch to this:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/19307/20210218_212522.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1614046900)
@SwampDonkey (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=1009) mentioned that he was looking at the Festool line of equipment and I have to say, it took me a lot of convincing to get off my wallet for that green color.
Now that I have spent the dough, well, best decision ever!
The combination of the big dust collector for keeping up with the big machines and the small quiet dust sucker for the detail work is really wonderfull.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/19307/20210214_123316.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1614050165)
At the bottom of the air filter is a 'dust cup'. I've filled the main 35 gallon dust bin at least ten or twelve times since the ductwork was installed. Hoever, at the end of all that plumbing, there's maybe 200 grams of dust in the dust cup when I took a curiosity peek a few days ago. So it seems to me that my do-it-yourself piping and collector project has worked out ok.
.
Just might be an example of the power of following good advice . . . this time. 😆
Very nice setup.
Thanks YH.
Someday, when both Canada and the US find a ' new normal' re the virus, and the ground borders open again, I'd like to see your collector at work.
Thanks Andries, glad you're liking Festool. Lee Valley sells them and they stand behind what they sell. :)
See you are up in that cold country, makes sense to use that filter. Down here in the middle of the country, we only have about 2 weeks of really cold weather, and dumping your air outside makes sense most of the time. I put a blast gate on my system, so I can use the filter on the coldest days. Dumping outside rids your system of the back pressure the filter creates, and seems to about double your suction. I would have to clean for a day or 2 before taking pics, nice shop and DC system.
Andries is that a cyclone type prefilter on top of the Festool collector?
Looks like I have similar Oneida to yours. 2HP, Yellow, external filter into 35gal drum. I puff air and bang that external filter but no matter when I take it off and go outside with it there is still a lot of stuff inside it.
"cyclone type prefilter on top of the Festool collector ? "
Yes it is.
It works well, its not as top heavy as the Oneida Dust Deputy and I haven't had to buy a dust bag since it was popped onto the collector. The collector used before the Festool was a Craftsman shop vac with a garbage can separator lid. That vacuum made more noise than the 3hp Oneida. Also, the constant plugged filters were a frequent and dirty nuisance to clean up. Hooked up to a Festool router or random orbital sander is a sweet setup. Quiet, dust free and super well designed system. Yup, I've taken a big swig of the Festool Kool-Aid. ;D
The Oneida cyclone takes out the big stuff. That filter is designed to hold back the super fine dust parts, the ones that are the lung killers. 2-5 micron? My air filter material is washable. Taking it off is pretty easy, and once spring gets here, I'll give the inside a wash, a slow flow with the garden hose.
So, paying a bit of attention to that will pay off.
My only Festool so far is the track saw and 4 track sections. Then bought 2 more blades and the clamps. I looked at the festool dust hose and I sure wanted it but had to draw the line somewhere that day. If I didn't have 3 other shop vacs 2 of them "Dustless" brand one has dust deputy on it, I'd be ready for that festool vac. Track saw most expensive plastic I ever bought but the Festool displays are sure tempting.
Yellowhammer thank you for your post and the info you have shared. I ordered the 20hp system with air lock and transfer blower from Oneida yesterday. Your upgrade and post gave me confidence to go down a similar path. I am replacing a system that cost me many thousands of dollars, so the second time had to be the right path. Oneida tells me their is a 4 to 5 week delivery lag. So I may spent more time in the mill until the shop get the upgrade. Thank you again!
Nice, you will like it. Are you going to have to replace your existing ductwork?
I rewatch the videos occasionally to remind me how much work it was, but now that its up and running, I wouldn't have done it differently. I love the system. It's better than I assumed it would be. I have zero buyers remorse.
The Oneida stuff was pretty much bolt together, just there was a lot of bolts....
Since you are going with a transfer blower, you will blowing to an external bin or pile, I'd like to see how that works out, I may end up doing the same thing.
Andries,
I have the dust deputy on top or my Festool CT26. It is strapped precariously and is unwieldly to move, but it works very well. I've dumped the deputy many, many times and have yet to need a new filter. I've been thinking about the Festool Cyclone, just didn't know how well they really worked?
Quote from: boonesyard on February 24, 2021, 04:38:53 PM. . . I've been thinking about the Festool Cyclone, just didn't know how well they really worked?
My son has the same setup on his CT26.
When I used it, if the dust bucket was near full, the whole works became tippy, especially because I was used to pulling my old time shop-vac around by the hose.
He has it set up in one location with an over-table hose mounting arm, and like you, he's happy with the Deputy on top.
Like you, I was skeptical until this video showed up.
CT CyClone let's see what makes it to the bag - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeihbzUhKlU)
I have a few bags for the vacuum in a drawer - the mice may build a home in them before I have to use 'em. I'm a happy, but broke, customer.
Boonesyard, s an aside, we live fairly close, weather-wise, to each other.
Have you noticed how static electricity is a big deal, but nobody other than us glaciated types take any notice of it? electricuted-smiley Festool has that stuff handled. Even at 40 below outside, the static build up is non-issue.
The Oneida folks are based in the semi-tropics (Syracuse NY), along with the likes of Yellowhammer in Alabama, who is completely tropical.
"Static Buildup" down there might only refer to the wife's perspective on dipping into the grocery money to buy dust collectors. ;)
Static is always biting me, dry due to constant heating and all. I try to keep a pretty good stack of green lumber air drying in the shop at all times and it has really helped keep it down. I've run a bunch of chips and dust through the new Clearvue dust collection system and have not noticed any static at all, very happy about that. FINALLY warming up.
When I did the green lumber drying in my shop trick, it kept the humidity up and the statics sparks down. Great!, I thought.
The I noticed a fresh crop of rust and corrosion on any exposed metal. The table saw, jointer, band saw. Heck even the woodstove started to sprout red spots. The tannins in all of my Burr Oak was fighting back and souping up the air in the shop. Might be sumpin' to watch for in your shop.
It's good to hear that the ClearVue is working well for you. The metal spiral pipe conducts electrical really well. When DR_buck posted pictures of his system, with plastic ductwork, my reaction was that up here, he'd generate enough power to spark up a Tesla. Hope he's in the tropics too.
One of my first systems used PVC pipe, and that thing would throw a spark like an electric fence charger. I did not like that at all.
Quote from: Andries on February 24, 2021, 06:24:50 PM
....... When DR_buck posted pictures of his system, with plastic ductwork, my reaction was that up here, he'd generate enough power to spark up a Tesla. Hope he's in the tropics too.
Been using PVC for ductwork in two different shops for over 22 years and have never had a static problem.
DR_buck, I hope you didn't take what I wrote as a criticism.
Systems with the plastic ducting are probably the smoothest and lowest static pressure designs.
The relative humidity must be high in your part of VA, which greatly lessens the build up of static. . . or do you have a copper line inside the pipes? Lee Valley sells a kit specifically for grounding their plastic pipes for dust collection.
The original design for the pipe layout came from Oneida and I opted for a collector from Laguna. My problem is I create so much dust/shavings that I am dumping bins every 20 minutes. The main trunk is currently 12", I will need to step up to 16" for approximately 20', other than the first 20' my piping will remain the same. Oneida sells Nordfab pipe so our systems have the same pipe. Great stuff!
My plan is to purchase another 16' for dump trailer and put on a box with baffles. I currently have one dump trailer for mill and shop waste. I am fortunate to have a friend that has a stump yard a few miles away. He doesn't charge me to dump scrap wood/dust and I can enter any time of the day. Putting a box on the dump trailer will give me approximately 750 cubic feet of storage. Depending on if I spend most of the time in the mill or the shop I should only need to dump the trailer once or twice a week.
I'll post some pictures when the system is up and running.
Quote from: tmbrcruiser on February 24, 2021, 09:01:58 AM
Yellowhammer thank you for your post and the info you have shared. I ordered the 20hp system with air lock and transfer blower from Oneida yesterday. Your upgrade and post gave me confidence to go down a similar path. I am replacing a system that cost me many thousands of dollars, so the second time had to be the right path. Oneida tells me their is a 4 to 5 week delivery lag. So I may spent more time in the mill until the shop get the upgrade. Thank you again!
Yellowhammer needs a commission from Oneida 😂. The systems you guys have and getting are pretty incredible 👍
Quote from: Andries on February 24, 2021, 10:25:25 PM
DR_buck, I hope you didn't take what I wrote as a criticism.
Systems with the plastic ducting are probably the smoothest and lowest static pressure designs.
The relative humidity must be high in your part of VA, which greatly lessens the build up of static. . . or do you have a copper line inside the pipes? Lee Valley sells a kit specifically for grounding their plastic pipes for dust collection.
Andries, not problem. My reply was an almost automatic reaction. There is so much misinformation spread concerning PVC use in shop dust collection that I hear all matters of problems with it, when in actuality there really aren't any. The biggest "fake news" I hear is the potential of PVC caused fires and dust explosions. It's got to be the most debated urban legend on the internet, right up there with Epstein killed himself. :D There are zero documented cases of shop fires caused by PVC dust collection piping, but the debates continue. ::)
If I were to make any significant changes (unlikely) to my system it would be to go to 6" PVC vs the 4" stuff I have now. My JDS cyclone collector is rated at ~2000 cfm, so the performance is limited by the piping size. The 4" PVC does OK on removing most dust and debris from everything in the shop except my 18" spiral head planer. Depending on how wide and deep I plane in each pass the removed chips can overwhelm the system and I end up with a pile under the machine.
PVC Dust Collection - Myth Busted (https://youtu.be/WJ8NMYlhaLQ)
WoodCentral Articles & Reviews (http://www.woodcentral.com/articles/shop/articles_221.shtml)
Quote from: Walnut Beast on February 24, 2021, 11:37:34 PM
Quote from: tmbrcruiser on February 24, 2021, 09:01:58 AM
Yellowhammer thank you for your post and the info you have shared. I ordered the 20hp system with air lock and transfer blower from Oneida yesterday. Your upgrade and post gave me confidence to go down a similar path. I am replacing a system that cost me many thousands of dollars, so the second time had to be the right path. Oneida tells me their is a 4 to 5 week delivery lag. So I may spent more time in the mill until the shop get the upgrade. Thank you again!
Yellowhammer needs a commission from Oneida 😂. The systems you guys have and getting are pretty incredible 👍
I agree, they need to send me some stuff, I didn't even get a hat. :D :D
Quote from: YellowHammer on February 25, 2021, 09:06:20 AM
Quote from: Walnut Beast on February 24, 2021, 11:37:34 PM
Quote from: tmbrcruiser on February 24, 2021, 09:01:58 AM
Yellowhammer thank you for your post and the info you have shared. I ordered the 20hp system with air lock and transfer blower from Oneida yesterday. Your upgrade and post gave me confidence to go down a similar path. I am replacing a system that cost me many thousands of dollars, so the second time had to be the right path. Oneida tells me their is a 4 to 5 week delivery lag. So I may spent more time in the mill until the shop get the upgrade. Thank you again!
Yellowhammer needs a commission from Oneida 😂. The systems you guys have and getting are pretty incredible 👍
I agree, they need to send me some stuff, I didn't even get a hat. :D :D
You were supposed to wear that 7"-3" reducer they sent. :D
Quote from: DR_Buck on February 25, 2021, 07:50:55 AM
Quote from: Andries on February 24, 2021, 10:25:25 PM
DR_buck, I hope you didn't take what I wrote as a criticism.
Systems with the plastic ducting are probably the smoothest and lowest static pressure designs.
The relative humidity must be high in your part of VA, which greatly lessens the build up of static. . . or do you have a copper line inside the pipes? Lee Valley sells a kit specifically for grounding their plastic pipes for dust collection.
Andries, not problem. My reply was an almost automatic reaction. There is so much misinformation spread concerning PVC use in shop dust collection that I hear all matters of problems with it, when in actuality there really aren't any. The biggest "fake news" I hear is the potential of PVC caused fires and dust explosions. It's got to be the most debated urban legend on the internet, right up there with Epstein killed himself. :D There are zero documented cases of shop fires caused by PVC dust collection piping, but the debates continue. ::)
If I were to make any significant changes (unlikely) to my system it would be to go to 6" PVC vs the 4" stuff I have now. My JDS cyclone collector is rated at ~2000 cfm, so the performance is limited by the piping size. The 4" PVC does OK on removing most dust and debris from everything in the shop except my 18" spiral head planer. Depending on how wide and deep I plane in each pass the removed chips can overwhelm the system and I end up with a pile under the machine.
PVC Dust Collection - Myth Busted (https://youtu.be/WJ8NMYlhaLQ)
WoodCentral Articles & Reviews (http://www.woodcentral.com/articles/shop/articles_221.shtml)
The main reason why PVC pipe is not recommended is the buildup of static electricity and the high risk of explosion. Plastic pipe systems are not designed for dust collection use. A necessary diversity of fittings to meet design requirement does not exist.Yellowhammer had static
If your using PVC you better have it grounded
Not sure of all the details but I came into a very large commercial collection system beside the drive to my mill. Looks practically new. 7.5 hp baldor motor, 10" lines, distribution has 6?? openings. My son in law kinda accidentally picked it up in an auction.😂😂😂
Lucky now make everybody hang there head 😂. How much ?
Quote from: Walnut Beast on February 25, 2021, 09:44:29 PM
The main reason why PVC pipe is not recommended is the buildup of static electricity and the high risk of explosion. Plastic pipe systems are not designed for dust collection use. A necessary diversity of fittings to meet design requirement does not exist.
Yellowhammer had static
WalnutB;
It looks like the text formatting followed along with your cut and paste.
The urban myth continues, wherever you got that from
Have a read of DR-bucks comments, including the video link.
Explosions and fires from static electricity: No.
Static discharge - like touching an electric fence: Yes.
Two boxes of pipe and fittings came yesterday. Another week or two before the collector, time to prep the area and get ready for a quick switch. I'm already behind on orders, the upgrade should help with time efficiency.
That's great. These ductwork installation eats time, but went smoothly. It was actually easier than assembling my old stovepipe, just everything was bigger.
Did you get the snap lock pipe, slip joint, or ?
I ran bare copper wire along my pvc pipe to where I tie it to metal. I do get sparks on my dryer vent hose I clean the floor with.
If you put the bare copper wire inside the plastic ductwork and lead it out at some point, to one of your machines, it'll send the static charge away to ground.
For the vacuum cleanup or flexible hose, pick a hose that has a metal coil in it. Expose the metal coil and attach it to the copper wire or ground, and it won't zap you anymore either.
Yes, I purchased Nordfab pipe and will change/add to present piping to complete the new connection. I'm looking forward to the upgrade, even getting a little excited.
I really don't want to stir a pot, but thought some people would like a little more reading to do, if they are interested. Whether people use standard non conductive PVC pipe in their dust collector system, or use carbon loaded (conductive) or metallic pipe, is their decision, not mine. I have used both.
In my old job, I spent quite a bit of time working with, avoiding, and even analyzing the issues of static electricity in hazardous environments. There are two scenarios involved in a potential dust collector fire and propagation - 1) the potential risk of fire inside the the duct, with flowing and dynamic air to fuel ratio, and 2) the potential risk of fire caused by single or repeated static sparks caused by triboelectric effect, (google it) to a fixed and suitably flammable material, such as sparking to a pile of very fine, highly flammable powder or vapor, outside the ductwork, in a static situation.
I agree that the odds of a fire or explosion in a dynamic environment such as inside a flowing dust collector duct is minimal, as its extremely difficult to generate a one time spark that will happen to have the correct fuel air ratio to ignite a flowing combustable mixture. I ran some experiments once, in my old job, where I injected natural gas, air, and eventually hydrogen into a dynamic and potentiality reactive particle environment with a single spark, and only after many, many tries (weeks), did I get any reaction at all. We judged that a dynamic air and particulate incident was most likely not the cause of a major "in the news" facility fire, as it was almost impossible for me to repeat, even in artificial environments under laboratory conditions.
I also have no doubt, and industry agrees by implementing countless safety protocols in facilities and plants, sometimes labeling it is simply "good housekeeping" that repeatedly generating a tribolelectric spark and exposing a flammable material, such as a fine, dry flammable powder to spark energy, or flammable solvent vapors, will in fact, and has in the past, caused fires and loss of property, in many industries. A repeated and relatively high energy triboelectric spark, caused by a facility process (not feet dragging against carpet), can ignite a flammable material or vapor, if the arc happens to cross it. The ignition source does not have to be sawdust, because the spark is external to the duct, but inside the shop, and if any flammable material in a shop gets between the spark, (vapors being probably the most common), a fire can be induced. In this case, the sawdust flowing through a insulated pipe acts as a spark generator and can cause a spark to jump external to the duct, to a nearby conductive surface and can cause fires. I have personally seen my old dust collector fire a repeated spark from the ductwork to a grounded surface, repeatedly, for hours, while I worked. Only later, when it got dark, was I able to identify the location of the arc, which happened to be high up near the roof, luckily only near where fine dry, sawdust was piled. Luckily I didn't start a fire, and it only happened two days in a many years of using the system, but it did happen, and was a repeatable, external event.
Two completely different scenarios, two compeletly different levels of hazards.
When people think of "static electricity" such as dragging feet across carpet and causing a spark, that is a relatively low energy event, and is generally pretty safe. However, working in my old job with explosives and propellant systems, personal induced electro static discharge has caused many catastrophic and deadly events, and that is why all explosive and propellant handlers are required to wear grounding straps or conductive shoes, at all times. It's a cardinal rule. Hand touch spark to some propellants, you are toast. Hand touch spark to old school blasting caps, and every now and then, one blows your hand off. I understand the rocket propellants and blasting caps are not sawdust, however, it does show that even a persons low energy static discharge can intiate a reaction is some circumstances. These days, munition and explosives initiators are generally only deemed as safe if they are static discharge rated 1 amp-1 Watt safe, which is well above the normal static discharge from a human to a conductive object. That's one reason you don't see the "Kids - don't handle blasting caps if you find them" TV commercials any more. Remember those? The effects of static discharge haven't changed, only the initiator devices that were sensitive to them. We don't use blasting caps anymore, we use much safer initiators that are basically immune to ESD.
However, the effect of passing dry particles over conductive surfaces will cause a phenomenon called the "Triboelectric Effect" and it is a field or research that I have participated in occasionally, over the years. Basically, as particles pass over an insulator, the insulator charges, and at some point, there is a dielectric breakdown of the insulator, and a potentially high energy spark will jump from the surface of the insulator to a conductive surface, much like jumping the gap of a spark plug. If there happens to be a flammable substance between the spark, it may ignite. This is a completely different level of energy from a barefoot/carpet spark, and many research papers have been written about it. If the triboelectric charge was induced from a continuous process, such as two non conductive materials continuously rubbing together, then the charge and discharge cycle will repeat, and spark repeatedly, increasing the the chances of igniting a static pile of flammable material. All triboelectric events are not high energy, but some are.
Are there example of triboelectric discharges causing fires? Certainly. One of the most famous I worked on was the nuclear warhead capable Pershing Missile incident in Europe many years ago (Google it) where a Pershing missile was being removed from a container, and the atmospheric conditions were exactly correct. As the non conductive case of the missile rubbed against another surface, at some point the friction built up enough charge (triboelectric effect) to cause a high energy spark resulting in the breakdown the insualtive nature of the motor case and subsequently cause an electrical discharge to the missile propellant, lighting it. It didn't help this was during the Cold War, and the weapon system was not too far from a border. It caused a tremendous international incident and killed several soldiers. All from the process of two surfaces rubbing together causing a high energy triboelectric discharge across a flammable material.
I have personal experiences with others incidents, one of which was when the commonly available friction tape used to bind electrical leads together, was unwound. As the tape was unwound from itself, it caused a very high energy triboelectric discharge that fired an initiator device. The result were catastrophic.
Anyway, here is one of many documents that discuss the hards of tribelectrification in a facility environment. Each to their own, each persons perception of risk is their own, and every persons decision is their own. However, facility fires causes by triboelectrification are real, and in many cases avoidable. Here is one short document that discusses some of the issues.
Electrostatic Hazards: Early Warning Signs | Stonehouse Process Safety (https://stonehousesafety.com/electrostatic-hazards-early-warning-signs/)
Thank you Yellowhammer, that article was worth the read and was a great example of using plain language to illuminate a highly technical topic.
From that article;
With static so prevalent at home, do you really expect it to be absent at work? The main difference, of course, is that in the workplace, things happen at scale and with energy – and we also find extensive flammable atmospheres of low flash-point liquids or combustible powders and explosible dust clouds. An ominous combination.
The issue of woodworking dust collector fires seems to be one of scale, and as you mentioned, of housekeeping.
A seed mill company in our city had erratic, but regular, dust explosions. The company blamed dust conditions and static discharge, and people were hurt. They were eventually charged with insurance fraud.
A lifelong friend in Kenora has a friend that enjoys frequent shop wildfires. Not surprising when he does metal working and woodworking in the same space. The angle grinder sparks will fly and if those sparks find the six inches of sawdust under the corner of the table saw, well, excitement will ensue. His response to those episodes isn't to change his mo, but to buy more fire extinguishers.
I have personally experienced a dust collector fire. My dad was a basement level woodworker and a smoker. He smoked a pipe and would often enjoy a puff and a coffee when contemplating his next masterpiece. His flame of choice was wooden kitchen matches and some spilled out of the box onto the floor. Yep, you can see this coming, right? A match got sucked into the dust collector and ignited as it went at high speed through the collector. He called me over late at night because he couldn't find the source of the smoke that was filling the house. Sawdust was smoldering and smoking between the basement wall and the bag.
.
In spite of this mayhem, from my perspective, most of the Forum members are small scale woodworkers, sawyers or processors (firewood, moldings and the like) and will never experience a dust collector fire. Not from static spark at any rate. Real risk and percieved risk are sometimes worlds apart. Most woodworkers may have a cluttered workshop (a sure sign of a creative mind), but the real hazards are from the housekeeping side of things.
The benefits of a really good dust collector far outweigh the risks from static discharge, in my opinion.
Yes, I agree. A good dust collection system is extremely important for respiratory safety as well as getting as much sawdust out of the shop space to prevent any kind of fire, even from other scenarios. I remember years ago I was hanging out, watching a buddy sharpening a lawn mower blade with an angle grinder in his shop. I watched a hot spark of metal land on a years old pile of sawdust on the shop floor, and poof, up it went like somebody lighting a campfire with flint and steel. The guy whose shop I was in wasn't much on sawdust safety but he did have a fire extinguisher handy and we laughed about it later.
The benefits of a good dust collector of any kind outweighs the risks of a possible fire, in my opinion and practice. However, there are things that can be easily done to reduce any chances of ignition to other sources, such as using TEFC motors, proper circuit breakers, proper wiring, proper grounding, and non conductive pipe, if available. Typically, such plastic is black or dark colored and simply made with a small percentage of carbon, which is electrically conductive.
This whole continued myth on PVC shop dust collectors really ticks me off when people without facts continue to spread false information. I would have expected that here on the forum it would not continue. But is does.
I posted a video up in this thread that goes through a comprehensive explanation of why PVC is perfectly safe. There have also been studies to try and prove PVC duct work is not safe. Oneida, who sells duct collector systems and metal duct work tried and failed. They have all failed.
There are ZERO documented cases of ANY fire or explosions caused by PVC ductwork used in a wood shop.
Here is a link to a very well written detailed article that supports this: http://www.woodcentral.com/articles/s... (https://www.youtube.com/redirect?event=video_description&redir_token=QUFFLUhqbW1JY0t5cVdlX2lVcmFIZDlXRFFJRGlPYkxCZ3xBQ3Jtc0tsUmxLTnhkWTY5OEdVdFY0U3JOVDRSOGlaamxONlVqbmJhZDVBdEZKeE9BOWw5eFNpYmRQZWc5WkVuT2NoUkZ5SlZZZHlWdEJXUkNWZ2h6eDVZYVBnTS03LVgwZVpNcEZHdlRkcWstcURkcFMtai1KYw&q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.woodcentral.com%2Farticles%2Fshop%2Farticles_221.shtml)
I've actually read the article many times, and it is limited in scope to "home dust collection systems" of which are defined, clearly, in the article, as under 1500 CFM, which is a very small system indeed, less than 1/3rd the performance of my earlier dust collection system, and considerably less still than my new system. It is also considerably less than what is used by some of the Forum members who are contributing to this topic. So, in reality, the "myth" of an intrinsically safe dust collector system ends at 1500 CFM, which has no relevance to my system at all. So in any case, the article and it's conclusions do not apply to me, due to the size of my system. What does apply? The National Fire Protection Safety (NFPA) Codes.
From the article, "To my knowledge, there has never been a documented case of an explosion with PVC in the home shop, or a case of an explosion in a filter bag bag in a home shop." A home shop is being defined in the article and the NFPA safety codes in part, as under 1500 CFM. Mine and some of the others in this topic have many multiples of that.
So let's discuss this. Here is the an important part of the article, so much so that it is highlighted in red by the author. "It is important to note that the NFPA codes only apply to systems that move more than 1500 CFM or greater. Despite advertising claims, none of the systems generally available for home use...come close to 1500 CFM."
So here are two very important subjects to discuss. My system is sold and classified as an "Industrial Dust Collection System." Definitely not a home system under 1500 CFM. In fact, it is many times larger than 1500 CFM. What does that mean? It falls under NFPA and OSHA regulations for flow rate requirements, assuming other site conditions are met. It means that when I get my yearly and mandated inspections by the Fire Marshall, my system has to meet all NFPA codes that I fall under, or I may fail the inspection and get shut down. Then since my insurance requires that I have a successful annual fire inspection, I lose my insurance. This obviously is a very important couple reasons for me to not use PVC ducting, especially as I'm a business. Quoted from the same article "The NFPA codes...call for grounded metal ducts. Also, I think it's important to note that the NFPA codes only apply to systems that move more than 1500 CFM or greater." Again, a very, very important piece of information.
On to the second point, whether a home dust collector actually flows 1500 CFM. The author states "It is important to note that the NFPA codes only apply to systems that move more than 1500 CFM or greater. Despite advertising claims, none of the systems generally available for home use...come close to 1500 CFM." This is a very problematic statement. Whether or not the author believes many dust collectors are over rated, there is only one piece of equipment information that is relevant to an NFPA inspection (assuming other criteria are met), and that is the rating on the blower. If it says it exceeds 1500 CFM, then it will fall under NFPA rules, unless the actual calibrated airflow can be determined. So in most cases, it would be reasonable to assume that any safety inspections would be based on the motor and system capability plate riveted to the blower, not on a subjective statement from the shop owner of "Well, I think its over rated..."
Why does the NFPA care? What's the point? Well, it simply depends on the size of the dust collector system. Quote from "Designing your dust collection system to meet NFPA standards — Part I, Gary Q. Johnson, Workplace Exposure Solutions" ---"About 40 percent of combustible dust explosions reported in the US and Europe over the last 25 years have involved dust collectors. Dust collection systems are now a primary focus of inspections required by OSHA's National Emphasis Program on safely handling combustible dusts." If this document is read, it will immediately become apparent that a proper dust collector system is highly regulated in the larger systems, including flow losses, blast gate sizes, etc. It is for this reason I had my system professionally designed.
Also, as I mentioned earlier in another post, there are several scenarios for dust collector induced fires, only one of which is the ignition and explosion inside the dust collector pipe or system. Other problematic causes are from external sparks lighting flammable materials and vapors. These occurrences can be greatly reduced by proper housekeeping.
Oh, by the way, from a real life standpoint, many people know that I get some of my wood planed at an offsite commercial facility. In fact, earlier in this year, they blew the explosive release vent off their dust collector and were down for 2 weeks while they awaited repairs. There is typically only one reason the explosive safety vent blows off a dust collection system. Yes, it is a commercial system, but it is also worth noting that dust collector explosions can and do occur, otherwise commercial systems wouldn't have safety blast vents on them to begin with. So I believe it's important that any such discussion involving dust collector hazards should always also referenced the size of the system and its relevance to national safety standards.
Can a dust collector fire happen, either internally or externally? Yes. Is it of concern in a small shop, with a dust collector rating or actual CFM of under 1500 CFM? Probably not. Is it a concern with a system with over 1500 CFM? Yes, enough so that it falls under NFPA regulations if other site conditions are met. Is it a concern in a commercial application with commercial insurance? Yes. Is it a myth? No, the facts are out there and readily available.
Get the codes, read the codes, follow the codes. If you don't fall under the codes, read them anyway so you can follow "best practices."
To paraphrase a popular TV commercial ......."What is in your shop?"
Good read Yellowhammer 👍. Probably would be wise to just use metal piping system. Better to be safe than sorry
Robert, I am interested in the fine dust collection. Are there pleated filters on that system? Are they after the blower or before? How and how often are you needing to clean those filters. That's the part I'm worried about getting a similar but maybe smaller system. If you're protecting your lungs by catching the fine stuff, if you have to blow them out, you'll still get very dirty and will be a messy job, no?
They are offered, but I didn't buy them because they are generally such a mess to clean, and won't hold up in an outside environment. I don't know how long the time is between cleanings, but since there are three pleated filters, each about 5 feet tall, I can only imagine it's not a fun job at all to clean the fine dust filters.
So then your fine dust just exhausts into the outside air?
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Yes, I originally had an open port from the blower, but it was pretty loud, so I put a plenum and 3 foam sound attenuators on the output side. Normally, this is where the 3 stack pleated filters mount, but you can see they aren't installed. This helped reduce the sound significantly. Basically, the air exits the blower straight down, and none of the fines get filtered out. They exit about 10 feet from the building, and I never see them again.
I've had other dust collectors with fine filters and cleaning them always left me looking like I'd rolled in flour, covered in dust. I hated it. Of course, I can't clean the air filter on my tractor without getting dust on me, much less 3 pleated dust collector filters, each about 5 feet long.
I'm not sure how long they would need to run before they needed cleaning, but as much as we use ours, I'm sure I would have had to do it once by now.
I purchased the system with a return to four filters and a barrel that is under the filters. I believe I will be able to clean the filters without removing them. Using an air hose to blow and shaking the pleats at the same time. My understanding is I will be able to dump the finds from the barrel when full. Piping has arrived but, still waiting on the rest of the equipment.
Yes if you have to blow out the fine filters and get it all over you and breath it in, kinda defeats one of the primary purposes - to protect your lungs. If, as tmbrcruiser indicates, you have a system with a catch bin underneath, and the process of agitating the filters is mechanical so that the filters never need to come off, that would be the best. Of course this would be if you are exhausting your air indoors to not lose heat or cool.
Bigger shops have a bag house with a shaker. When they shake the bags the dust falls into trough with an auger that brings the fines outside. You could rig up something similar on a small system.
I like YellowHammer's idea. I also exhaust outside with a small blower and on a still evening my neighbor a 1/2 mile away can hear it. :o
Quote from: Brad_bb on March 28, 2021, 09:28:47 PM
Yes if you have to blow out the fine filters and get it all over you and breath it in, kinda defeats one of the primary purposes - to protect your lungs. If, as tmbrcruiser indicates, you have a system with a catch bin underneath, and the process of agitating the filters is mechanical so that the filters never need to come off, that would be the best. Of course this would be if you are exhausting your air indoors to not lose heat or cool.
On a smaller scale my dust collector does just that. There is a low RPM motor that has a long shaft that protrudes the length of the filter. The shaft has several nylon or some sort of plastic tabs that extend out from the shaft up against the inside of the filter pleats. When the collector is powered off, the the filter cleaning motor rotates one direction for about 15 seconds, stops, then goes the opposite direction for the same amount time. This knocks the dust from the filter down into the bag on the bottom. I empty the bag every few months, or more often if I don't pay attention to the 'Full Barrel" alarm and then the bag fills up with shavings and large dust. ::) I have had this collector for 15+ years and have never had the filter off.
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The system I have now has three filter with small motors that rotate in both directions to clear the filters. The one of the problem with that system the filter are rubbed in the same place and soon wear. But I never have a problem fine dust in the shop air. Seems every system has it's pro's and con's, so we all end up picking a system what works best for our individual needs. The best thing about this forum lots of experienced advice.
So looking at this fancy system with the rotary airlock and everything has got me thinking. Instead of attempting and failing to DIY my own rotary airlock for my grizzly 3HP cyclone, what do you guys think about this: wall mounting the cyclone up higher, cutting a hole in the bottom of the barrel and adding a big blast gate to a chute that leads outside of my garage. That way, when it fills up, instead of farting around with emptying and replacing the bag for 5 minutes, I can just have it dump into a 275 gallon box that I can then take to my mill scraps area and dump/burn. I am thinking this would be my best option since I am looking to save shop floor space and decided against having it being outdoors. I'm mostly wondering on how airtight the blast gate would have to be to maintain a solid vacuum in there.
The blast gate has to be pretty tight, since its on the suction side. However, you could do exactly as you suggest, as long as the opening in the bottom of the collection barrel is large enough for the sawdust not to jam up or clog the opening, or while it's feeding.
You could also use a smaller blower as a transfer blower, maybe an old dust collector blower you are not using, and just suck out the dust in the barrel when it gets full. That way the blast gate on the bottom of the drum maintains a seal, and then when it's opened, the transfer blower can suck out the sawdust.
I received the equipment from Oneida (20hp cyclone with filters, air lock and transfer blower) about two weeks ago. Shop has been a mess putting the equipment together and figuring out the exact placement/piping. Tomorrow concrete is scheduled for 10:00, looking forward to the new system. Hope to post some pictures as we set equipment.
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The Laguna collector is being replaced by the equipment from Oneida. The Laguna is a good collector but dumping the bin slows down the shop a lot. The cyclone is outside in an equipment bay and the transfer blower will sit on small pad outside (to the left). The return filters will sit inside the shop at about the same place as the Laguna collector.
Looking for a 16' dump trail, covid has all the trailer sales lots out of trailers to sell. Several dealers said they would have new stock in about three weeks. Will build a box over the dump trailer, that should hold about 750 cubic feet of dust/shavings. The bin under the Laguna collector hold about 45 cubic feet and when I'm running flooring fill that bin in about 20 minutes. That is the reason for the upgrade.
Plan is to connect the electric and all of the duct work from the air lock to the transfer blower. Last thing will be to change duct and connect filters in the shop. Hoping this will only shut down the shop for a day or two.
That is a sweet setup. Your filters stand up with a bin under them. Thats opposite of how mine were, thats why I didn't get them. I like your setup.
Very nice 👍. What's the hp of your setup
I see that it's 20 hp. WOW
Is that the hp of your system Yellowhammer
Mines a 10 Hp system, I've got three filters looks like this one is 4. Oneida has a very efficient blower design, and I've never come close to overloading it. It will run my 55Hp double sided planer while at the same time sucking the sawdust from the sawmill. I'm as happy with it now as the day I installed it. It's not unusual for it to run for most of the day, servicing all our tools.
The systems you guys have are probably the best out there and very impressive 💪
Worked on piping last night, connecting air lock to transfer blower. Had a little distraction when a coyote came out 100 yards away. They are just starting to be seen frequently on the Easter Shore.
I went with four filters and stand with bin, to recapture the conditioned air from the shop. The barrel will catch the fine dust from the filters, not sure how often I will need to dump the barrel. The flow of my piping must not be as efficient as it should be. From time to time the jointer and the moulder will plug up with shavings. The Laguna is rated at 6,000 cfm and the Oneida is rated at 7,800 should be problem solved. Weinig recommends 6,000 cfm for the moulder.
Almost went with Oneida when I set up originally, wish I had. A good friend once told me "You will remember a bought lesson longer than a taught lesson".
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Got the system up and running, very happy with the performance. The trailer should hold about 600 cubic feet of dust/shaving. This will be a huge time savings in the shop, not having to empty the 40 cubic foot bin every 20 minutes.
Good deal. Looks like you did a real nice job 👍
Where you going with the trailer when it's full?
Very nice. Do the shavings stay contained in the trailer, or do they blow out some?
You can't see the soffit on the trailer, I used vented soffit along the top eve of the trailer cap. There is a gap between the plywood and the outer 2"x4". The transfer blower easily moves the dust/shavings but dose not create a wind storm. A little bit of fine dust gets out, but not much.
I have several horse farms near by that will take the dust/shavings as long as it doesn't have any walnut or cherry. When I am running either walnut or cherry I can take it to a mulch yard. They don't pay me for the dust but they don't charge me to dump.
So, performance wise, it's sucking up all the chips you need and keeping the machines clear? It looks like a real nice, clean set up.
Very impressive setup, and nice installation workmanship. I've also been happy with my Oneida products since a mid-winter install.
Here's a question about the transfer blower: it looks so much smaller than the capacity of the cyclone blower fan.
They must be balanced in terms of capacity, but how is that possible?
Is it because after the cyclone and air locks have done their work, that the ducting can be reduced to move mostly sawdust and much less air?
The system is working better than I expected, hate to admit it but I could probably gotten away with 15 hp. I ran cherry flooring yesterday without stopping to empty the dust bin. Time savings makes the system well worth the expense.
Seems I have a habit of over building. When I put up the air drying shed 30'x50' with front and back open (used sun shade curtains) the post are 12"x12".