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Trying to decide on a finish for a table

Started by Crusarius, March 05, 2021, 12:32:09 PM

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kantuckid

Quote from: Crusarius on March 05, 2021, 01:14:22 PM
Don, thanks for responding. I didn't think tung oil would do that. great to know.

Dan, I have never dealt with lacquer have no idea what to do with that.
There's tung oil and tung oil finishes-not the same! 
 I've used WATCO brand tung oil finis to good effect on hard maple. I prefer WATCO Danish oil under many finishes or as the final finish. Either product has directions detailing the 72 hours cure time before using a coated finish like a varnish or poly-wipe. Recent ERC projects i did multu coats of WATCO poly wipre satin alone and you get an easily controlled finish, especially on a flat table surface. My chestnut kitchen table has poly wipe over WATCO Danish and maybe takes on a bit of a plasticky look but also a wipeable clean up surface. Sewing table a simple oil finish should be enough. 
Tables are indeed a simple piece of furniture but wood movement is often not accounted for as it should be given wide surfaces involved. Some oil finishes and stains do play tricks with fruit woods like cherry. 
many mfg have switched to waterborne finishes due to EPA or local air quality regs. Low VOC vs regular is another factor regionally or affected by where the warehouse/sellers located aside from your own location. Many low VOC finishes are far worse that the original choice IMO. More so true on outdoor finishes IMO. 
Lacquers historically are not as long term durable but modern versions have gained service life- they often do look somewhat plasticky though-IMO. Used much commercially due to spray ability. 
Kan=Kansas;tuck=Kentucky;kid=what I'm not

DonW

Quote from: Crusarius on March 06, 2021, 09:24:02 PM
ok, so now as I was trying to build this table I think I realized how little I truly know about making really nice furniture.

Most of my previous projects have involved mechanical fasteners and all have been made from pine. Now here I am trying to become a high end master craftsman overnight.

I think the nicest thing I have built was my DVD cabinet that used blind dados to support the shelves and finishing nails to hold it together.

As I am designing and trying to build this thing I am truly understanding the gravity of my situation.

when boards shift and move with humidity do they grow lengthwise or widthwise?

Does spalted maple and black walnut behave close enough to the same to allow me to not worry about the different rates?

My original design had the long edge boards with the grain lengthwise but with the spalted maple running perpendicular to it. Is this going to want to push the table apart?

It is funny how you do not realize how little you know till your knee deep into a project.
All the components with potential for significant movement should be complimentary and if not, yes the forces will probably wreak havoc with the constriction. It's not all though. For the same reason we don't mix solid wood and veneered or other "stabilized" manufactured products - mdf - together in a single piece. 

These woods you mention have similar movement all things being equal. 
Hjartum yxa, nothing less than breitbeil/bandhacke combo.

kantuckid

My dining room table is solid chestnut with "engineered breadboard ends". The extensions are homemade chestnut veneer over plywood with solid chestnut edges, two oak sliders that key into slots under each end. 

On the FB WM group it seems like everybody and his brother is buying a mill now to cut natural edge slabs or cookies. Most of the tables seen there are on welded steel bases-probably cause many don't know how to built a proper table? 

My drop leaf kitchen table, also chestnut, is more typical of solids tops I do and uses directional slots in wood tabs under the table glued to the edges/aprons using screws with washers to allow sliding as expansion occurs. Simple, cheap solution. 
Kan=Kansas;tuck=Kentucky;kid=what I'm not

Crusarius

Excellent information, thanks everyone. My design has actually changed from the original because exactly what you guys mentioned. I was concerned about the table just blowing apart with seasonal expansion.

One of these days I will post some pictures. 

metalspinner

Crusarius

A little tip with this mad science experiment of your's...

You are putting your wife in between you and a potential mess of a piece of furniture. No matter how bad this thing turns out (the table, not your marriage), no matter how much you might want to get rid of it in the future (the table, not your wife), her heart will be wed to that table and she will not allow you to throw it out. Regardless of how much your skill set of furniture building and design progresses, she will be emotionally attached to THIS table because you built it for her. 

Just know that going in. :D
I do what the little voices in my wife's head tell me to do.

Crusarius

thanx metalspinner. your absolutely right :)

And I love the humor :)

kantuckid

My wife, as myself is a senior, plus she's the wife of a woodworker and she'll still tell it straight every time,(we seniors are well known for skipping over the trivia and cutting to the chase :D) even if she doesn't know what the hell she's talking about or Me, the wood guy doesn't want to hear it ::).
 But, and as they say, it's vary large but, once in awhile she is actually right and I am forced to chew on my words and fix stuff to be right. 
That said, my wife has no role in a finish choice. 
Honestly said, tables are most a simple basic design always. The breadboard ends on my dining table are sort of complex way to perform a simple task-allow movement. Fine Woodworking magazine shows it very well in an old issue.   
Kan=Kansas;tuck=Kentucky;kid=what I'm not

Crusarius

I finally got some time in front of the computer to at least post my progress.

Table is supposed to be 68.5" long x 18" deep x 26" tall. 




I started out with some 2" thick walnut slabs with live edges on both sides. I then took a piece of 3/16" steel plate I had and used that for a straight edge to take the live edge off with my circular saw. My poor saw really did not like cutting 2" walnut that insisted on binding. These slabs had been air drying for at least 1.5 years.




I bought the new Wen planer with spiral head and began planing everything down. That sure is a nice planer. Not bad for how cheap it was. My biggest complaint is the painted black tables are rubbing off on my boards.




After getting everything cleaned up and planed I thought I was doing good until I started mocking pieces up. I realized nothing was square. some so far out of square that by the time I made them square they would be way to small. So I finally had some time to play with my jointer my father gave me. Talk about a learning curve. In the end I think it all turned out pretty good but sure did take a long time and alot of sawdust.




So here is how the table sits right now. I am having a hard time getting the joints between the spalted maple nice and tight. I have a tiny arc to the panels that is not allowing me to get the joints tight. I think I am going to put a longer fence on my router and use that to true them up. Since I am doing tongue and groove in the top. The top is roughly 3/8" thick, the sides are 2" thick. The picture shows everything just butt against each other.




the next picture shows the under side of the table. I am thinking about using a lock dado on the supports under the table to keep the center span from pulling apart. It should also keep the 68.5" boards from twisting. The legs will be bolts in the corners using 4 bolts. the legs will be what trues up the table and holds everything tight. the reason for bolting them on is to make changing them out at a later date easier. If this table ever get repurposed from a sewing table the height would be all wrong.




Here is what I am using for joinery.
Groove, didn't get pic of tongue. you guys all know what those look like anyhow? right? :)




Lock dado. Since the maple is only 3/8" thick I wanted a joint that would hold the top down and support it better than just using a tongue and groove. Hopefully this going to stay a nice tight joint. It feels real nice the way it is.




So the lock dado is going to be on all 4 sides around the maple. everything inside the lock dado will be tongue and groove with glue to hold it tight. I hope I am not making a mistake going this route, but I guess time will tell.

and for a chuckle... This is the problem with being a machininst before a woodworker. Nothing is ever precise enough :)




It is kind of hard to see but I clamped my caliper onto my table saw so I could adjust the fence. It's ghetto, but it worked :)

Thanks everyone for your advice so far. As this progresses I will add more details. I am kinda in a funk because of the maple joints not lining up so I have put a hold on the project till I can get my mind back into it. 



DonW

Would you consider making up veneerd panels from the maple? It would solve this movement problem and ease your worries.
Hjartum yxa, nothing less than breitbeil/bandhacke combo.

21incher

Just wondering if you took a moisture reading on the lumber you are using after cutting.  I find  2 inch walnut takes me over 3 years to dry in my barn. Beautiful  maple. I think  DonW has a good idea to make veneer  panels like WOC does.
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Crusarius

I don't really have the tooling to make veneer. Good thought though.

I did check the moisture content at one point. forgot what it was but I should have done it again after I planed them. I will try to remember to do that before it all goes together. Another reason I am dragging my feet. hoping to get it to warm up a bit before putting it together. 

Not sure if the temperature will effect the end product or not.

mudfarmer

No input other than that is going to be a gorgeous table 8) Nice work

Crusarius

Thanks. I really hope so.

I had another member give me a great idea using a router and cutting both panels at the same time. that way I can get a perfect joint.

Now I need to setup a jig to do that.

kantuckid

You have a table saw which can make veneer thin enough to solve the wood movement issue those square spalted panels will show.If tight and dry it will be perhaps around 3/8" later between two edges? 
  Another potential tactic would have been to make them float within the walnut that surrounds them with the edge gap changing over the seasons but that's sort of a weak design for a table top as it becomes a crumb & debris catcher. Of course the side grain edge is where the space will show up. 
Yes it's a beautiful bunch of wood but I am trying to be helpful.  ;D
Kan=Kansas;tuck=Kentucky;kid=what I'm not

kantuckid

Quote from: Crusarius on April 03, 2021, 08:54:47 PM
I don't really have the tooling to make veneer. Good thought though.

I did check the moisture content at one point. forgot what it was but I should have done it again after I planed them. I will try to remember to do that before it all goes together. Another reason I am dragging my feet. hoping to get it to warm up a bit before putting it together.

Not sure if the temperature will effect the end product or not.
Wood once extremely dry still moves over the seasons. The devils in the design. As an e.g. I could build your table in Scottsdale, AZ using very dry wood, then move to the eastern forest areas you and I live in and the humidity would possibly force apart your walnut joints as the wood took on humidity.
I just built an ERC table for my cabin project. It has a 2" thick top and is 48" x ~20" top with legs drilled through as round tenons retained by wedges from the top. It will move but matters not as the top is in free space. Of course it needed top be dry enough to not warp in a heated home where my wife's using it until the cabins built.
If a home has wood heat near wooden furniture then the seasonal changes get tough on items.
I use a microwave and a gunpowder scale that measures in grains to calculate wood moisture content. The measurement units matter not as long as the sample is within the scales limits and you don't catch the wood on fire as I've done before! :D 
Scale twice, easy math, exact results. I do a small square about postage stamp size. 
Kan=Kansas;tuck=Kentucky;kid=what I'm not

TroyC

Beautiful table! Love the walnut and maple contrast!
I'm partial to a natural stain just to bring out the color. Sanding sealer, steel wool, then a couple coats of clear lacquer. You will find lacquer dries fast, is forgiving in the sprayer, and provides a hard finish. Easy to respray later if you need to refresh top.

Crusarius

funny you say that, I used to live in Scottsdale :)

Crusarius

does lacquer yellow over time? That is my biggest fear. I really do not like yellow wood.

TroyC

 I have not had a problem with lacquer yellowing. Got some 30 yr old projects that have not yellowed. Inside, out of the sun of course.

firefighter ontheside

Lacquer can yellow with sun exposure.  Its less noticeable with dark woods.
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Larry

Nitro cellulose lacquer will yellow.

On the first page of this thread I posted a picture of Sherwin Williams CAB lacquer.  It has UV protection built in and does not yellow.  Goes on water clear and stays that way.  I used the dull rubbed sheen on all the woodwork, doors, and cabinets in my house 10 years ago. I don't see any change in the finish.  Check back in another 10 years for an update. :D
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

Crusarius

Thanks Larry that is exactly what I want. especially if I can get it in a satin finish.

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