New mini-skidder, what do you think?

[devmar]

Awassos is going to launch soon the new MD60: A 60 hp Mini-Skidder made for low-impact selective logging. The base model is equipped with a remote controlled winch and is less than 7 feet wide. It's going to be similar to the Turboforest's TF-42c (http://www.vannattabros.com/skidder6.html). Awassos is a new company started by the owner of the now defunct TurboForest. The retail price of the MD60 is going to be in the 60 to 80k CAD range depending on options(50 to 65k USD).  Awassos is based in  Roxton Falls, Québec.  If you want the full brochure, send your contact details to devmar@videotron.ca

How do you guys feels about using Mini-Skidders to do selective cuts?

[Bro. Noble]

I think it's something that's really needed.  We use a FWD farm tractor with a winch on the back and forks on the front and get by pretty well,  but it really isn't made for skidding.  It would be better if it had a roll cage,  more ground clearance,  and belly plates.  I hate to make any alterations because we also use it for farming.  We can't justify the cost of a new skidder so have thought about looking for an old small skidder.  When they first made skidders,  40-50 hp skidders were common.  They just kept making them bigger and bigger,  with bigger and bigger tires.  I guess that's fine if you are clear cutting and handling tree length stuff,  but they just tear up stuff and make a mess if you try select cutting-----from what I've seen.

[Woodhog]

When I was skidding to do selective cuts I found you could only do a good job if the
logs were cut to length...if you try to skid them out long you do a lot of damage to
the remaining stand....

If you cut  to length then productivity goes way down unless the skidding distance is very short
to the landing...

It was nice to have the winch to pull down hung up trees that you get when you are
doing selective cutting...

It depends a lot on the size of the wood also...

Another disadvantage of the skidder is dirty logs.. some mills dont like them all covered with mud/sand etc...depends on the time of year...if you dont cut to length in the woods your saw is cutting into all that stuff when bucking on the landing...


The skidder is a lovely size for selective thinning and would do a good job with a patient /careful operator..of course it would be serial number 001, would they have lots of parts and good service??

I think this size of skidder would probably do the best job of thinning compared to a forwarding
system that requires large turning circles and wide roads...you can run the cable out and pull
out trees that the forwarder cant think of reaching...as far as getting the thinned wood out
I dont think its the best method...so now you need a forwarder and that little skidder..

Maybe it could be adapted to pull a forestry trailer/loader also???then you would have the best of both worlds...

[Ron Scott]

I agree with "cut to length" for selective logging. Also need to see the mini forwarder also.

[David_c]

Can pull it with a 1 ton too.  8)

[timberjack240]

we do selective cuts with skidders and drag tree length. theyre not big . we got a 225 and a 240 . i have to disagree with wood hog a little bit. we recently just cut a state job and only skinned a couple trees that werent marked . i cant remmeber how many but i no it was less ten. all you have to do is watch were you put your skid trails we like to put ours beside the trees that are marked that way the trees that do get skinned up get cut. as for the mini skidder for me--- im sure they wood work good but for me no way im what you call a "jack man"  ;D   8) :D

[Craig]

Greetings,

Here is an article about a gentlemen who uses a turboforest logging up in Maine.

http://www.meepi.org/lif/bob.htm

They speak about the problem purchasing a machine from an unstable company.

There is a really good book about low impact forestry for anyone interested

http://www.lowimpactforestry.org/

It tells many good ways to do a quality logging job.

There are many good small used skidders out there such as the smaller timberjacks and 440 John deere even older 540 john deere as welll.

But a small skidder in the hands of an unskilled or uncaring operator can do a tremendous amount of damage. I run a large skidder and do a quality job. Some jobs that I have worked on cutting large white pines I couldn't get by with one of those small skidders or large trees of any type.

Planning, skill and a caring attitude is the key to a quality job

Just my 2 cents worth

Craig

[Rod]

By buddy who just bought the c5500 went out and bought  1977 JD 350 with a winch and forks on it.There small and can get though the woods without to much damage to the woods.

[whitepine]

Looking at the same problem myself and have a set of plans for a CADTrac 1500 this is a articulated all hydraulic drive with a loader anyone familiar with it  how do you think it would work in the woods? Plans come from cadplans they sell plans for backhoes loaders etc. There is also builders forums on them but noone I know is using it for wood work. I would like to hear  your opinion on it. It is 4 ft wide 25 hp articulated thats what looks good to me. Cost about 6000 in parts plus alot of welding!

[Buzz-sawyer]

I am familiar with cadtracks..they are for level flat ground and dont have any near the traction or power to work in thee woods

[whitepine]

THANKS buss sawyer you may have saved me alot of disapointment. I am looking for something less than 4 ft wide or real close any suggestions. Curious as to why that cadtrac would not have the power to pull a skid they are using hydraulic drive on alot of woods equipment now.

[Buzz-sawyer]

The problem is the scale.

if you were pulling 8-10" "LOGS" then cadtrack would work on flat dry ground. KINDA
To pull logs you need equipment that has tractor tires and the horse power rating as well as the heavy and rigid construction..otherwise you could twist up a rig right quick ;)
Hydraulic or mechanical drive you fight in your own weight class :D :D :D

[OneWithWood]

Craig, that is a good book.  Take it one step further and pick up a copy of Positive Impact Forestry by Thom McEvoy.  I think you would enjoy it.

[Minnesota_boy]

I think that if you are looking for something that is less than 4 feet wide and capable of pulling a good log over rough terrain without tipping over, you need a good draft horse.

[woodbowl]

whitepine,
   I've got the cad plans as well, but for his backhoe. I called him a few years ago and asked the same Q's your asking. He didn't give me a straight answer. Best I remember it would be too slow and the hyd, motors are on each wheel. Maybe you can give him a call and recieve more info.

[Craig]

Hi OneWithWood,

Thanks for the tip, I will check it out.
Here is another book I like, it is called A Guide to Logging Aesthetics. It tells a lot of little things you can do
to make logging jobs more pleasing to observers and more importantly landowners (customers)
Here is a link:
http://www.umassextension.org/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=NS-NR60&Category_Code=FP&Product_Count=7

Take it easy!

Craig

[leweee]

I think that if you are looking for something that is less than 4 feet wide and capable of pulling a good log over rough terrain without tipping over, you need a good draft horse.

80k ?....Horses :....price of fuel ......Give me the horse ;D

Remember...   if you want to make a million dollars logging... start with 2 millon. :D

[theonlybull]

a customer of ours has a turboforest, that he has used for 5-6 years now.  he pulls a long trailer with it, and occasionally skidd's logs off hill's,  or ones that are beyond it's reach...

to date,  the only real complaint he's had,  was the brake bands on the winches.  he's broken them 10-12  times.     he's also been worried about the lack of parts,  but hasn't had any problems.   infact, he just bought a small harvester, and is talking about buyin' a new mini skidder when they get up and running....

it's a fairly nimble machine,  and looks to be well built.  but in certain conditions, or with a bad operator, it can make as big of a mess as the larger machines...

[Scott]

 I remember looking at one a few years back at a trade show with my dad. One complaint we had was that the stock tires where too narrow and would rut our land up pretty bad. But i guess thats not a big deal as long as you could put wider ones on there.  The double winch was kind of neat. I'd love to have one but I don't know too many woodlot owners who could afford one.

[Oregon_Sawyer]

I didn't get the link to come up, but a small skidder designed for selective thinning would be great.  As long as is it not a modified farm tractor.

I just sold my  Cat 518 grapple skidder.  I am going to miss it but the cash was more important right now.


I would like to have a skidder with forks on the front.  Yard logs to my mill and move lumber away.

Loren

[theonlybull]

Oregon_Sawyer ,  these are ground up, purpose built machines.   they do have narrower tires then most machine,  but they can be retro fitted,  or when used with caution, don't make too much of a mess.  heck, our skidder run 9.00 truck tires :D

[Awassos]

I am proud to say that the new mini-skidder Awassos will be soon avalaible.  The prototype will be on test next week and we can figure that the comercial production will be effective on the end of January.  The web site in french is supose to be effective next week and for the anglish version we can figure in 1 mount.  (for the spanish version, maybe around february).

We also do technical services on old Turboforest and can sell used unite (depending of disponibility, owner loved them so it could be dufficult to have one so, anyway, take a chance    )


For further information, fell free to contact me (Simon Denis) or my brother (Benjamin-Pierre Denis) at the Awassos office

[Awassos]

merci Denis pour le travail.... je le tiens en mémoire

Simon Denis

[theonlybull]

congrats,  i wish you luck with your venture.    the turbo forrest looked like a great lil' machine.

if you ever need someone for service, or dealership in NS  give me a shout

[Scott]

 This week in the heavy equipment seller theres a six wheeled turboforest forwarder for sale 28,000. I never knew they made a forwarder. If anyone is interested I can email the guys phone number to you.

[OLD_ JD]

get any pic of it :

[Scott]

 Theres just a little black and white picture of it in equipment seller. I could scan that if you want but I don't think it would help much   :-[. They don't have it listed on their online postings either.

[Scott]

Turned out pretty good  8)

[SwampDonkey]

Although I whole-heartedly agree that bucking in place is the best method in single tree selections I have seen good results with treelength also. On a tract I was managing the trails where placed with no turns and twists. Instead the yarding trails were placed hearingbone style to the main trail. One disadvantage we had was a bit of a larger yard, but it wasn't that bad. We were also on relatively flat land and any land that was sloped a bit the trails were placed to take advantage of the terrain. Also, skidding distance was under 400 meters. If a tree fell in the wrong direction, ya just hooked it by the top. We were working in deep snow and in one place the snow was up over a 6 foot high skidder tire. Up in the hardwood it was 3 feet. This was two winters in the months of February and March. The hardwood was quite thick growth and needed thinning badly. We had to clean up some areas that had mature fir and poplar, but I measured those areas when we were done and they only totaled 6 acres on a 90 acre lot. I was thinking about planting them, but I said to myself that would be foolish. And today they have all kinds of fir and poplar, which was harvested to begin with. Why try to change nature.  :



Pre-harvest tree marking in dense hardwood.



A couple of harvest trails converge here and carry on ahead.



Mini clearcut of mature softwood and poplar (< 1 acre)



Yard with area behind, that has been completed. Trails spaced every 100 feet. Keep in mind that 80 % of the woodlot is young hardwood.



Yard across the road from previous picture with 100 meter buffer from a creek, no harvest zone. We are only required a 30 m buffer with 30 % selection within 15 m.  This area is a bit protected from the wind and deer yard up here. A couple of deer were killed by coyotes during our occupation.

[OLD_ JD]

ok SD i my  look stupide :..but y some of the tree's in the yard have red cross on it and some not :-\...maybe u work diferente way then we do :P

Scott thank's for the pic ;)..nice looking rig....look like pretty far price too

[Scott]

OLD_JD, I thought it was a pretty resonable price too. I'd rather have thier little skidder but the forwarder looks like a good rig. 6 wheel drive too 
SD nice looking job. Did any of the logs in that bottom picture go for sawlogs? It looks like there are a couple nice ones in there. I was curious about the paint on the butt of the logs too.

[SwampDonkey]

JD, it was just my method of tallying the poplar logs with veneer in them. We had several tractor trailor loads of poplar veneer. Nice white stuff. ;D We used a slasher on the poplar and harwood to slash 100 ". ;) When your moving wood and piling more wood on the same pile, how do you know what was already tallied, from the new being added? ;) :D

The softwood went as treelength to Frasers in Plaster Rock, which was 10 miles away.

[OLD_ JD]

y'a SD good way to see it ;D...i agree whit u about bucking in place,take more time in the wood,but work is done when u get in the landing ;)if ure bucking only the big stuff..pulling treelength work better

some thinning made whit cable skidder 3 year's ago



the one i'm doing right now whit the F-4 fowarder



pic of the landing whit the saw log allready scale in the wood

[OLD_ JD]

my pic at 30k can't be as big are our's SD...weird ???

[SwampDonkey]

JD, it's in the compression. I use Adobe Photoshop's Save for Web optimization. ;D I was surprised at some of my pictures, I had to go down to 35 % quality to get them under 30k and there isn't that many colors.  :

Looks like your getting along quite well with your new toy. ;)  You cutting some fir out too? I find in some areas the fir is rotten when grown in hardwood. What are you finding out with your fir?



X marks the rot. Ahem ;)

Up in my pictures with the poplar, the wood was chalk white, on the back of the lot the poplar was all punky.  :(

[OLD_ JD]

SD Fir are pretty rare aroud here..what u see in the pic are hemlock... on a soft maple and cherry stand

[Tom]

One way to look at those optimized pictures is that

Pixels equates to width and length
KB (kilobytes) equates to density

It's the width and length that can destroy the integrity of the screen format.
Haven't you seen a big picture push the rest of the page off of the screen
so that you had to use the sliders to see one side or the other?  Some are
so big that you can't see both sides at the same tiime.   The aggravating
part is that, once corrupted, the whole page is corrupted and that includes
other posts as well.


The Density is what requires storage space. If you think of a Kilobyte as
a bean, then more of them either require a larger jar or a stronger arm to hold
them.   Two pieces of metal may cover the same hole, but one (aluminum) is light
While the other (Steel) is heavy.  By optimizing, you are thinning out the particles
that it takes to make the picture.  In essence, turning Steel to Aluminum.  If you
go overboard and remove too many, the aluminum becomes so porous that stuff
falls through it.  Or, in the case of the picture, it loses its sharpness and definition.

The whole secret is to keep the KB's high enough to make a good picture but thin
enough that the picture can be transmitted easily or stored in a small amount of space.

By working with the width and length first, it makes it easier to optimize.  Only if you can't
"thin" the picture and still keep definition, do you have to make the picture smaller
than Forum standards, which is 400 pixels.

The less dense your picture, the longer the forum can retain a 100% post format.

So, the format of the forum kinda rests in your hands too.

[etat]

Hey Tom, can i try to explain the density part? 


If you looked over the  top of bean wagon and looked at down and even if the beans were piled up  four feet deep in the wagon  all you would see is the top layer.  That's how a big picture is, there's a lot of Kilobytes (beans) in it even if you can't see them all.

If you filled that same wagon almost with cotton and then put a layer of beans on the top of it and looked you'd still see  beans.  Why, if  you didn't know that cotton was under there you'd still think you had a whole wagon load of beans.

A picture is the same way, you can get rid of a lot of them (Kilobytes) beans that you can't see by  putting cotton underneath and still be looking at the same picture, up to a point. 

Get that first layer of beans (Kilobytes) toooo thin, and you're gonna know that you've been stuck with cotton. 

[Kirk_Allen]

Beans, Cotten, Wagons and Skidders all in one post.  All we need is a bowl of grits and we will be set  :D

[SwampDonkey]

Where's the maple syrup, biscuts and donuts Marcel ??? :D

We could always eat some of that punky fir rot to substitute for Gritz. ;D

[Murf]

I was waitin' for someone ta' say this thread didn't amount to a hill of beans.  :D

[SwampDonkey]

I thought at the very least we had a whack of logs.  :

[theonlybull]

what ever it is,  alteast we stayed on topic   :D :

[OLD_ JD]

y'a thank's all..that work better :D