Backsaw and Chisel Advice

lowpolyjoe · November 26, 2013, 10:05:17 PM

Hey Guys

I'm hoping to do some joinery in the future and I was thinking about picking up some of the related hand tools.

From what I've read, a 'dovetail saw' is typically very small and may not be sufficient for larger joints. I think a "carcass saw" was the suggested alternative. Anyone have a recommendation on a make/model? I don't need anything fancy.

Also considering a few good chisels since they seem just as important. I have a harbor freight chisel set but I'm not sure if they would cut the mustard. I've seen wildly different prices between chisels and don't really know what to look for.

I've also seen one youtube video where the woodworker was using a "routing plane" or "router plane" to square up a cut and take it a bit deeper. Seemed like a great little hand tool to have, but I don't think I've seen it used in other videos and I've watched quite a few dovetail videos at this point :D. Anyone have any experience with this tool? I'm talking about the hand tool, not a planning bit for a router (which i'm also a big fan of ;))

Thanks!

SwampDonkey · November 27, 2013, 04:54:36 AM

Check out

http://www.leevalley.com

They do have a NY warehouse I believe. They sell different grades of such things. If you was doing a lot of dovetailing, I would get a dovetail saw. It's a lot finer blade. There are also dovetail chisels. Anyway, Lee Valley will at least tell you truthfully whether the saw or chisel is good or a lower quality tool. The good stuff is pricey, but it isn't junk neither.

I'm like a kid in a candy store when I browse their tools in their catalog.

There is often a tendency of buying stuff you'll rarely use, I think the price makes you think a little harder. Does me. :D

lowpolyjoe · November 27, 2013, 09:12:50 PM

That's a great source alright. Thanks. There's a nice Veritas lineup of carcass and dovetail saws that might be in my price range.

CHARLIE · November 28, 2013, 01:18:01 AM

I bought a nice set of Marple Chisels before they were bought up by Irwin. Mine are Sheffield steel but now Irwin makes them in China. I won't buy Chinese steel because you can't tell the quality of the steel and if it is tempered properly. My advice would be to buy chisels made in the U.S.A, England or Germany.

SwampDonkey · November 28, 2013, 04:21:33 AM

:D :D I've had the catalog out for 2 days filling out my wish list. Then again, I usually go through and edit the list, removing what I don't really need. This time it might be real hard. :-\

lowpolyjoe · November 28, 2013, 11:04:30 AM

SD - i'm working on my wishlist right now. A few people asked what they could get me for Christmas and ever since i've been interested in woodworking, i have no problem coming up with a big list :D

Yeah, Charlie, I am skeptical about Chinese made tools where quality is concerned. What do you think about Canada made?

I'm considering maybe the 1", 1/2" and 1/4" from this set :

http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=69847&cat=1,41504

Or this 5 piece set (although biggest one is only 1/2", which i think is a bit small):

http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=46035&cat=1,41504

These Japanese products look very nice as well. The triangle shape looks ideal for fitting into joints

http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=54872&cat=1,41504,54872

Dave Shepard · November 28, 2013, 12:09:39 PM

Anything you buy from Lie Nielsen will be top quality. I have their dovetail saw, it is amazing. There is almost no set to the teeth, a feature you won't find in cheaper dovetail saws.

CHARLIE · November 28, 2013, 09:59:45 PM

Lowpolyjoe, I'd buy Canadian chisels too but I didn't know of any brands made there. I know Oneway makes some mighty fine woodlathes and accessories.

SwampDonkey · November 29, 2013, 04:07:06 AM

I think just carving knives like Bebe and Haida, which are hand made in Canada. Chisels, if there is, Lee Valley hasn't any. Their's are England, German and Japanese. I have used Japanese chisels and saws from Lee Valley and like them, some of the chisels are hand forged and laminated. I like Veritas planes to, they work nice, any that I have at least. They have extra features on some that others do not.

jonnywood · November 30, 2013, 10:36:27 AM

for us on a budget if we could only get one plane and one chisel set what would it be? would a king 1000/4000 wet stone be the way to go to keep them sharp?

thanks for all the info so far

Dave Shepard · November 30, 2013, 10:48:44 AM

I don't think 4000 I'd enough. I have a King 8000 and it puts a very fine edge on. Norton makes a very nice set of waterstones that is a great value.

SwampDonkey · November 30, 2013, 02:18:30 PM

I use Norton wet stones and I have a Veritas honing/sharpening guide. Also there are sheets of 3M micro-abrasives that are good for chisels with different shapes, other than skew or square edged, 5 and 15 micron. 15 is around 1000 grit, 5 is much finer, not sure of grit. And diamond film that goes down to 0.1 micron. PSA backing on both.

jamesamd · December 01, 2013, 12:06:14 AM

Start with these
http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=67707&cat=1,41504

Sharpen any way Your comfortable,I use diamond plates and leevalley honing compound on leather.
Care for a shave? ;D

Jim

lowpolyjoe · December 17, 2013, 09:07:08 AM

Thanks again for all the feedback everybody. Regarding my question about Canadian made products, it sounds like the Veritas stuff from Lee Valley is from Canada, for example:

http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=69619&cat=1,41504

I've been watching a lot of Paul Sellers videos on YouTube lately and I just found his chisel sharpening tutorial. Anyone reading this thread might be interested in his technique. I very much appreciate his budget conscious approach to everything and I like how he starts with pretty much the cheapest chisels he can find and puts a razor sharp edge on them. I thought the difference between cheap and expensive chisels was the ability to produce and hold a sharp edge - but these look pretty sharp to me and he says they will hold the edge.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ki8tt-VjwqI

SwampDonkey · December 17, 2013, 04:10:54 PM

Never had no luck with cheap stuff because the edge chips off with any force. No good for noth'n. His cheap must be better than my cheap. :D

lowpolyjoe · December 18, 2013, 10:14:25 PM

I never would have thought of the edge breaking - that's certainly no good.

I think in the video he mentions paying 8 pounds for the 4 chisel set he was using, which is about $13. That is about twice as much as I paid for my 4 pack from harbor freight a while ago ;D ... I just picked them up so I would have *something*, but i'm still researching what quality chisels I want.

Unfortunately, the more I research, the more tools I want :D. adding to the list:

Marking knife
Marking gauge
Coping saw
Sharpening equipment, maybe including a marble slab
Hand plane or two
Woodworking vice
...

the list keeps growing...

jonnywood · December 20, 2013, 11:36:58 AM

tell me about it. the list just grows and grows lol. the work bench with a good vise seems to be a must for hand tool work.
Paul has a video series on making one out of pine. that seems like a good heavy duty one i might try.

i am going to the cheep Chinese store too look at the marking gauge it might be worth having.

what is a good vise to have?

Dave Shepard · December 20, 2013, 02:04:43 PM

Quote from: lowpolyjoe on December 18, 2013, 10:14:25 PM
I never would have thought of the edge breaking - that's certainly no good.

I think in the video he mentions paying 8 pounds for the 4 chisel set he was using, which is about $13. That is about twice as much as I paid for my 4 pack from harbor freight a while ago ;D ... I just picked them up so I would have *something*, but i'm still researching what quality chisels I want.

Unfortunately, the more I research, the more tools I want :D. adding to the list:

Marking knife
Marking gauge
Coping saw
Sharpening equipment, maybe including a marble slab
Hand plane or two
Woodworking vice
...

the list keeps growing...

Was that a Freudian slip? :D

I have a Glen Drake Tite-Mark marking gauge. I highly recommend it.

I didn't watch that video, but from the looks of that chisel, he didn't do a very good job flattening the back. It looks like a Japanese chisel, which are intentionally hollow. The way that one is rounded makes me think he cut corners trying to polish the back.

SwampDonkey · December 20, 2013, 02:47:12 PM

I have Lee Valley's Deluxe Rosewood marking gauge. It'll last long after I'm dead and gone.

lowpolyjoe · December 21, 2013, 09:22:40 PM

Quote from: Dave Shepard on December 20, 2013, 02:04:43 PM
Quote from: lowpolyjoe on December 18, 2013, 10:14:25 PM
Woodworking vice
...

the list keeps growing...

Was that a Freudian slip? :D

:D I think I may have been spelling that wrong my entire life :D

Jonny - I watched that entire series where Paul builds that workbench. Amazing what he gets done with all hand tools. I like the "well" that he builds into his bench. I have not seen that before but it seems like a good idea for keeping tools out of the way while you're working. I'm still researching vises. Good ones seem very costly. I considered building a DIY version using threaded rod and some gas pipes, but I priced out a bunch of the stuff I was gonna use and it ended up more expensive than I expected (if using thick threaded rod). I'm considering one of these guys:

http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=49980&cat=1,41659

For a marking gauge, this caught my eye. I'm a gadget freak and this has a lot of appeal to me

http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=67466&cat=1,42936

I see the Glen Drake Tite-Mark is pretty similar. The wooden marking gauges are very attractive looking. I saw a pretty good video on someone building one from scratch, but I don't think i'm up for that project.

Dave - regarding the back of the chisel. I think he said he was not worried about the hollow in the back of the chisel - he said it could even offer some advantage. But if there was a bump on the back side instead of a hollow he would have had to take it all the way flat. I have seen the Japanese hollow back models as you mention. I don't know how well they work, but they sure look nice

lowpolyjoe · February 01, 2014, 07:09:46 PM

My birthday is right next to Christmas so the past month I got a bunch of toys.

2 ripping saws, 1 crosscut from Veritas. Chisels are Stanley Sweetheart 750's. I picked that set because it seemed like a great value and came with an 1/8" size. I found that rare in my searching and I thought would be good for cleaning out small dovetail joints. I read a bunch of good stuff about socket chisels vs tang/ferrule, but I've had the socket slip off a few times so far. Maybe I'm not setting it right. I got the set of waterstones and a strop (not shown) for sharpening duty and promptly slit 3 fingers open during my first attempt to sharpen the chisels :embarassed:. I was holding too close to the edge and pressing too hard. I tried free-hand but may need to get myself a honing guide because it did not go so well.

I know I should have spent time practicing my cutting and chisel work, but I couldn't resist jumping right into a project. I threw together this bathroom shelf unit for my wife. Bunch of through-tenons for the shelves and one set of dovetails for the top piece. It's an absolute mess :D There's about 1/4" of play in all the joints. :'( Not sure how it'll hold up, but I learned a lot. Just glued it up this evening - I used a lot of glue ;D

thecfarm · February 01, 2014, 08:19:06 PM

As I say sometimes,The next one will come out better. ;D

SwampDonkey · February 01, 2014, 09:37:37 PM

I've made lots of ...umm ..errors....over the years. ;D :D :D 8)

I have the Veritas honing jig and guide. 8) When I got my set of Marples chisels years ago it included 1/8" size. But I also have a 1/2" wide Japanese laminated steel dovetail chisel to. ;)

21incher · February 02, 2014, 08:54:10 AM

Practice makes perfect. And for other times I glue up loose joints with epoxy glue mixed with sawdust as wood glue doesn't always like wide joints. You have a real good Santa.

lowpolyjoe · February 02, 2014, 09:21:10 AM

Quote from: 21incher on February 02, 2014, 08:54:10 AM
Practice makes perfect. And for other times I glue up loose joints with epoxy glue mixed with sawdust as wood glue doesn't always like wide joints.

that sounds like a good idea. too bad I didn't think of it before using the wood glue. i'll have a peek later today and how the wood glue worked out.

my next project will probably be something smaller. I had problems with the white pine chipping and splitting REALLY easy, but it was all I had. I'll have to pick up something else to play around with