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ICF/Timber Frame hybrid. New plans.

Started by Raen, September 17, 2014, 08:35:28 AM

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Raen

Well, plans have changed, as they do. After much deliberation, we have decided to go with an ICF shell with timber framing inside. Two reasons, we couldn't swing the cost of the pure TF with SIPs, and we live in a very tornado-y area, so the concrete walls have appeal. We also couldn't find an experienced framer in the area, despite a big Amish population, to mentor us during the build. So: ICF! I'm actually pretty excited about it, it should go up fast. Which is good because we're living in the shop, and that's getting old.

The house is 3 levels, full basement and two above ground stories. I've drawn out how I'd like the framing to look on the first floor. The basement will probably be stick-framed. Not sure about the roof system yet.

Flooring, at least on the second floor, will be T&G 2x6s. This will also form the ceiling of most of the downstairs. It's my understanding that we could space our floor joists at 4' with that flooring, if the joists are big enough. True? We live in an area with no codes.  8) Still, we want it to be built well.

So beam sizing. There should be minimal loads on all of this, as the ICF walls will bear things like wind-shear, snow load, all that.

The wood will be cut from standing dead wood on the property. It's a mix of Honey Locust and Oak. How big do our floor joists and girt need to be?

Thanks!

Edit: sorry guys, didn't know about the whole off site images rule. Let's try again:

https://forestryforum.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=165921

Moderator note: Images must be in the forestry forum gallery system. Off site images are not allowed

Raider Bill

Welcome to the ICF world! Several of us here have built with them. Here's my little saga and as you will see I started out with the idea of ICF TF but lost that pretty quick.
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,25583.220.html

Why stick frame your basement?
The First 70 years of childhood is always the hardest.

Jim_Rogers

Have you read this story?

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,50714.0.html

Here I go through the steps to review and size timbers for the load that they are going to carry.
This may help you to understand how to do it.

Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
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Raen

Hi, Raider Bill! I'm reading through your thread now, good info.

Here are a couple of shots of the property. It's 25 acres east of Kansas City, MO.
(Edit: removed images)

I'm thinking stick frame for the basement because it's fast, and cheap (we might still cut our own girts for that, since we have the big trees and a local mill will saw them for us for $0.25 b/f)  We aren't planning on finishing the basement.

Moderator note: Again off site images are not allow. Please follow forum rules

Raen

Hi Jim, I did read that thread. It made my hurt a little. How much do I have to pay you to tell me how big these need to be?  ;D

timberwrestler

I'm pretty sure that for 2x6 T&G to span 4' it needs to be southern yellow pine or douglas fir.  We're mostly spruce/fir in the northeast.  Neither should be that hard to find.

Don't forget about planning for mechanicals, especially with no joist space.
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Raen

OK, I've been messing with the calculator. One question I have is does the calculator use true measurements, or the type of measurements you get in dimensional lumber: ie, a 2x4 is actually 1.5x3.5. I ask because we're having the beams milled, so they'll be the size we want.

I also have no idea how to factor the additional stiffness provided by the 2x T&G. Does that count for anything?

Right now it seems to want 5x10s if we reduce the distance between joists to 3'. In Oak, since honey locust isn't listed. Not sure what to do about that, either. :)

Brian_Weekley

I'm pretty sure the calculator uses the actual numbers you enter.  If you want it calculated on 4", enter 4".  If you want 3.5", enter 3.5.  You may need to research what other species is similar to honey locust for your calcs.
e aho laula

witterbound

So, you're going to build a 3 story icf box or rectangle, then use stik framing or timber framing inside the icf box to support the walls and floors?

Raen

Yes. There will be pockets for the timbers formed into the concrete walls.

Raider Bill

Seems to me....  That would be a ton of extra work. The ICF is all the structure you need. It will hold it's self up, better than most anything else. I don't think a framed basement with ICF on top will work well though. IMO I'd [and I have] ICF all the way to the top. After the pour recess your timbers into the styrofoam walls for your rafter/ceilings. Most ICF's have about 3" foam on either side.
The First 70 years of childhood is always the hardest.

Raen

Quote from: Raider Bill on September 18, 2014, 09:41:43 AM
Seems to me....  That would be a ton of extra work. The ICF is all the structure you need. It will hold it's self up, better than most anything else. I don't think a framed basement with ICF on top will work well though. IMO I'd [and I have] ICF all the way to the top. After the pour recess your timbers into the styrofoam walls for your rafter/ceilings. Most ICF's have about 3" foam on either side.

Oh, sorry, I guess I didn't convey that well. The walls of the basement will be IFC, as will all the exterior walls. The framing in between the basement and first floor will be dimensional, off the rack lumber, rather than pretty timbers. But the walls will be concrete.

scsmith42

Will the portion of the structure above the ICF's be traditional timberframe with SIPS on the outside then?
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Raen

It's a two story house with basement. The basement walls will be 8" ICF, and the above grade stories will be 6" ICF. Only the interior framing and the roof will be wood. We will probably go with engineered scissor trusses for the roof with some decorative beams to tie in with the look of the exposed timber framing in between the first and second floors.

witterbound

How can you pull the timbers apart to get the tenons into the mortises, when you will be restrained by concrete walls?

Raen

I was picturing just dropping them into pockets, like this: http://timberframehq.com/timberframeconstructiondetails/files/2012/04/dropinjoist2.jpg

It's just going to be the joist system and one TF post.

witterbound

Got it.  I used icfs for my ground floor, and stick framed it, then used 18 inch trusses for the floors, then timberframed the rest. We only have a loft on the third story.  Anyway, we used the 18 inches in the trusses for hvac ducts, wiring, plumbing, and piping for built in vacuum.  With icfs on the outside, you're going to have to use a lot of planning and creative way of hiding things, as well as extra time for all this "hidden" stuff.

Raen

Yeah, I know. That's one reason we have all the plumbing stacked neatly in one corner of the house. There will also be a utility chase running from the mud room to the upstairs laundry, which is centrally located up top. I think wiring the overhead lights is going to be the biggest PITA. It's going to require using a lot more wire than drilling through 2x joists would.

I feel like we're making a pretty big compromise by not doing a TF exterior, though, so I really want the interior to retain some of that warmth, even if its a pain.

Edit: do you have a link to your project, witterbound? I'd love to see it. I haven't found many examples of this kind of thing.

witterbound


Raen

witterbound, I really enjoyed your blog. Your house is absolutely lovely.

It seems the drywalling killed your blogging motivation (it does that; drywall is the only part of this build I'm sure I want to hire out.) Do you have any finished pics of the house?

witterbound

Yes, I ran out of blogging gas with the Sheetrock.  I'll see if I can get you some finished pictures.  Thanks for the kind words.

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