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Need advice regarding equipment for manufacturing flooring

Started by scsmith42, September 12, 2007, 08:15:37 AM

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scsmith42

I've been thinking about making wide plank flooring, and am to the point of starting to research the equipment required.  The primary raw material would be quartersawn oak, and the final product would be board widths anywhere between 6" to 18".

I can quartersaw right off of my Peterson, and I already have a Nyle / Woodmizer kiln.  From what I can figure, the remaining pieces of equipment to acquire would be some type of jump saw for cutting out knots and trimming the ends, some type of edger or straight line rip saw for truing up the edges after kiln drying, and some type of moulder (probably 5 or 6 head) for producing the final product.

I will probably buy used as opposed to new equipment.

Can anybody advise me if an edger will produce a true enough cut over a dried 4/4 oak board that would be suitable for a finished edge, or will I need something like a SLR?  Also, does anybody have any moulder recommendations suitable for an 18" wide board?

Thanks much.  Scott

Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

Kelvin

Howdy Scott,
A couple of things to think about on wide plank flooring and moulding machines would be the fact that to make a run you would have to presize most of the lumber to the same width.  I found that using a shaper allowed me to make flooring of inconsistant width and utilize more material.  The idea of ripping a lot of my lumber to accomadate a presized molder wasn't so great, though i wasn't doing truck loads.  You could set up two shapers with power feeders a lot easier than a molder, and cheaper.  I've been looking for used molders for a number of years and have never seen anything wider than 4x6" standard, though the smaller 3 sided ones from General and Sunhill are about 15" wide, but not really very big machines.  I've found that you have to presize material to go into the moulders so they run properly, which means i've already planed and straight lined.  It only takes a little more care to make the surfaces finished at that point so why worry about a 5 head molder?  If you are big enough to run roughing planers, as apposed to finish planers, and have a big enough crew to keep an industrial sized moulder running non stop it might be cost effective.  I've seen 2x6's go for $1k-$1.5 but the newer better ones are $10k.  My personal feeling is flooring is ideal for lower grade material i want to find a source for.  Wide plank QS lumber is not a problem to sell so why make it into flooring?
Good luck,
KP

beenthere

At the Lake States Logging Congress last weekend, Baker Products demo'd a 4-head moulder that would take up to 12" width (if I remember what AdaminMo told me), and he said moving from the edger right to the moulder made for straight edged boards. I suspect leaving boards set to allow for change in mc will require a new straight edge before moulding. It looked well built and wasn't real expensive, but may require 3ph power, as the others too.

Note:
For anyone the least bit interested, mold is black stuff that grows on wood, and to mold something is to run it through a die, like in an extruder.  :)
But mould, in the wood business, is to shape a piece of wood to a form. Thus, moulder is the machine used to mould a piece of wood.
Not trying to pick on anyone, as we all know what is meant.  :) :) ;) ;)
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

scsmith42

Kelvin - thx for the thoughts re the shaper.  One other thing that I could do is to run it through a moulder to get the s2s, and then shape the outer edges.  My concern is the labor cost to make the flooring with shapers, as opposed to a single shot through a moulder.  If there was a moulder that offered a relatively fast process to change the width, then I would not need to use similar stock; simply group my stock into 4 or 5 different widths with each production run.

Beenethere - I looked at Baker's 4 head moulder at Sawlex, and was pretty impressed by it.  I'd really like something that can handle wider boards as well as at least a 5th head - that way I can joint, plane, and mill relief grooves all in a single pass, along with T&G on the outer edges.  Again my concern is labor and handling.

Pls keep the feedback coming!

Scott
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

oakiemac

I don't have any real experience yet. I am just sitting up a 4 head stetson ross XL and I bought an old SLR saw. My plan is to take the low grade stuff and make it into paneling and some flooring. I dont think I can compete with the big flooring mills so I'm trying for the nich market. Multi specie flooring and paneling. I can only go up to 6" wide on mine. I'd be leary of going too wide since the floor is then suspect to more creaks and squeaks from unenven subfloors and cupping of the flooring-at least that is what I've been told.
It seems that most specialtly flooring shops run a SLR and a 5-6 head moulder. If I get enough buisness then I will get a 5 head first thing. I got a good deal on this 4 head so that is why I'm using it for now.
Mobile Demension sawmill, Bobcat 873 loader, 3 dry kilns and a long "to do" list.

RK Ron

42'
Seems like a couple 18" woodmasters w/router attachments would help.  One man could operate both machines @ once w/o spilling his coffee.
Another consideration to me would be to use the "Baker" and everything else that's wider go to power fed shapers (Kelvin) or WM18's.  That's reason enough to charge the big$$$.
I personally would need a fistful of wide plank flooring jobs before I'd invest in some super duper wizzbang wonder machine (I'm a coward sometimes).  My reason is if somehow my plan went awry,(experience talkin') it would be easier to re-sell shapers, pwr feeders, and WM18's than some behemoth w/german manuals....
RKRON

Brad_S.

I have an associate in the same building complex that has a 7 headed moulder with an Italian name. He uses a straight line rip saw to size and edge the raw stock but with enough heads, you don't need to pre-size, you let the first heads joint and pre-size and let later heads get finished thickness. One pass from rough to finished product. His maximum width is 9".

I have used my edger to slr for my Logosol, but occasionally the board "pulls" while going through and is less than straight but then I've seen the slr saw do the same. If your edger is a conveyor feed, you may  be able to get by until you can justify a dedicated slr saw. I've yet to see a roller feed edger that consistently cuts straight.

FWIW, IIRC, after a certain width it is suggested that the boards be s4s rather than t&g as it is a given that the board will move and there is the potential for the 7&g to pull apart and not re-align properly when they expand again. I don't recall what the suggested change over width is and probably varies by species.
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans." J. Lennon

Bodger

This may have been addressed and I missed it, but, one problem with running T&G on a shaper is consistant width (end to end) of the blanks.  That would require planing both sides,straight linning then ripping then running through the shaper twice.  If your board is 4" on one end and say 3.85" on the other it doesn't take too many of them to produce some serious problems with the last board.  We did that for quite some time and it was very time consuming even with power feeds.  However we invested in one of the new 4head moulders but the one we bought was not very satisfactory either.  Notice I said was, we tried it for a couple of seasons and got rid of it.  Before you buy a lower priced 4head check on after market knives and replacement heads and their cost.  One of the biggest problems we ran into was dealing with hard lumber and the effect it had on the knives.  In moulders as in any other part of milling there is no free lunch.
Work's fine for killing time but it's a shaky way to make a living.

Tom Sawyer

I usually put kd lumber back on the Woodmizer to size and straightline for flooring.  My moulder guy has an slr, but it is cheaper to do it myself, and it does an adequate job.

scsmith42

Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

fencerowphil (Phil L.)

Never thunk it, but I suppose you could put five or six boards on a partly cut
log on the swinger and do straight line, too. Crowns up the first time with the
saw set higher(wider) than you need, flip the group and drop to finish width on
the next pass.  It would work, but too much work.

I'm with you Scott, though, you just can't handle your boards too many times,
or labor eats you up.  As hobby craft that's one thing, but as far as production
is concerned, you need a way to send that board down a line one time.

Phil L.
Bi-VacAtional:  Piano tuner and sawyer.  (Use one to take a vacation from the other.) Have two Stihl 090s, one Stihl 075, Echo CS8000, Echo 346,  two Homely-ite 27AVs, Peterson 10" Swingblade Winch Production Frame, 36" and 54"Alaskan mills, and a sore back.

Kelvin

Scott,
Here is another idea, what type of cutters does a moulder use?  Steel.  What type of cutters does a shaper use?  Carbide.  How much run time do you get out of a pair of shapers before you change cutters?  10x's.  If you had two shapers you simply run the lumber through the first and stack.  The next is down stream.  Run through there and stack.  I straightline on my woodmizer if to far out of whack, or just run through my 8" long bed jointer if close.  Rip to width on tablesaw.  All these tools most folks have, and you can test the market.  Buy the right machine if people start ordering to justify.  I've never seen a moulder that was easy enough to adjust the width on.  The new ones probably are better, but you will end up ripping off more good lumber to make it fit, than if you used shapers that don't care.  I've never had any problem with taper with my shaper set up.  Once its straight lined on the sawmill or jointer the shaper doesn't mess with it, but i do measure occasionally to make sure no fence is messed up.  For something that has as high a material cost as wide plank quarter sawn oak flooring would have, are you really going to want to rip them down to some consistant size?  That seems fine when you are a huge millworks and can order your bunks in certain sizes.  Its not your loss.  Your wood is your loss.  Just some ideas, but i like my tooling idea.  You can't beat carbide, and all i ever see is steel in moulders.  You would probably have to buy a sharpener and grinder machine to be economical running white oak.  Whats harder on steel than that?
Let us know what you decide to do,
KP

Faron

As far as maintaining consistant width on a shaper, you will want a fence set up away from the cutter.  Set up your feeder to hold the lumber against that fence as it feeds.  That way the flooring has to be uniform from end to end  and from one piece to the next. 
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for dinner.  Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote. - Ben Franklin

scsmith42

Kelvin and Faron - thanks for the insight.  I have lots to mull over...
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

David Freed

   You are right to be concerned with labor costs. I have 2 separate businesses with 95% of the work in the lumber business being done with employees. I began making cabinet components without a store bought moulder. I had power feeders everywhere they could be used. I even made a homemade, 3-sided moulder using a 3hp shaper & 2 3hp routers. I thought I was saving money but when I saw how much time (time=money) it was taking to make the components I sell and began looking into getting a factory-built moulder. I finally lease-purchased a Logosol 4-head moulder and the labor savings is more than monthly payment on the moulder. The Logosol will make t&g flooring up to 9 ½" wide and costs about $10,500. I haven't been looking for one, but from what little I have read, a new moulder that would make 18" flooring would cost over $100,000. I don't know what a used one would cost but there are not enough people that want flooring that wide for me to ever justify a machine that big.   David

Faron

Welcome, David Freed!  We don't know each other, but we aren't too many miles apart.
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for dinner.  Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote. - Ben Franklin

David Freed

   Faron,
   Thanks. I just stumbled onto this site today and also noticed that we are not too distant neighbors. I have been a regular reader and poster at WoodWeb for a good while and have been looking for another site to learn from and share info with other woodworkers.     David

Handy Andy

  I bought my mill used from a guy who makes flooring, he is Horselogger on this forum. There is a thread w/ pics showing his flooring operation.  He logs, mills, and dries lumber, then straight line rips it, runs it through his moulder, bundles it up and ships.  Also delivers flooring locally.  Very nice fellow. A friend of mine has bought hickory flooring from Mike for some houses near here.  Just looked at one friday, finished natural is very cool looking.  He makes 3 widths, 5", 3", and 2 1/4.  It was mixed on the floor I saw.
My name's Jim, I like wood.

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