Opinion on damaged white oak.

[ohiowoodchuck]

Aep cut a road thru my property to access the transmission line. They skinned the bark off on a spot on this white oak with the dozer blade. I want your guys opinion of will the damage affect the value of the log when ready to harvest. I'll add the picture. 

 

[doc henderson]

It may form a scar.  how many years to harvest.  nothing that cannot be worked around in the near future.  i assume the tree is standing and the bark injury is "above" the yellow tape.  you can rotate the pic by clicking the turn arrow before adding.  if you want to you can modify, take out this pic and re-post.  Or we can figure it out and tip our heads.  

[barbender]

Yes that will cause a scar that will drop the grade on that face of the log.

[ohiowoodchuck]

Sorry here is the picture turned the correct way. How would you guy approach this. My agreement says the pay for all damages including trees. They had there forester look at it and he said that longevity wise it will be fine. I would have to measure it to get a accurate size, but I couldn't get my arms around it to tie the tape. They agreed to pay for the other tree they destroyed, but not this one. 

 

[beenthere]

Probably best you will get, unless you hire someone to represent you and file a formal complaint. Put a value on what you expect the loss to be for the one tree lowered by one grade (as it is in one face of the four used to grad a log). You can estimate, using the Forum toolbox, what the bdft volume is of the butt log and find some prices per bdft by grade to compare what you would lose. Probably not much, but it would be a good exercise for you and this forum to see the results of your calculations. Likely they have their butt covered in their agreement with you. 

[barbender]

The tree will probably heal, but a scar like is also often the entry point for bacteria and fungus. I would lean on them to pay for that tree as well. It all kind of depends on the contract. On a timber sale, that would be frowned on but on the ones I've worked a scar isn't fineable unless it is a certain size that is spelled out in the contract. Now in intensely managed hardwood stands like @ehp works in, I suspect the forester would assess a hefty fine for damaging a prime reserve tree. So I guess what I'm saying is, it depends🤷‍♂️ But I would try to get payment for it. 

[Southside]

That looks like an otherwise pretty clean log, I see one shed limb above the damage.  Now if that's a 3 side clear log and the diameter is there you would be looking at a stave or potentially veneer log, that makes it worth a decent chunk of change.  If the damage drops the grade to a saw log that's a pretty decent hit and like BB said, I would push for them to pay for it.  Ask them if you go to their office and break a big window and a small window if you can get off with only paying for the smaller window and see what they say.  

I have had a couple of dealings with our local utility company when they damaged things, so they kind of knew who they were dealing with when one of their contracted crews ran over a pile of 6" aluminum irrigation pipe that was 3' from a sign that said "No vehicle access beyond this point".  The skid steer tracks told the story, even the part where the guy tried to use the skid as a "get away" vehicle.  They paid that time, oh they really paid, and didn't argue over a single cent.  I take that back, they didn't pay - they bought, bought, and bought some more, then they delivered, and stacked, so technically I didn't get paid.  You have nothing to loose by pushing the issue.   

[ehp]

yes that is now a defect and will hurt the trees value . If tree is cut today then not so bad but a year or more from now it effects tree value. 

[kantuckid]

Small Claims court?  
The entire Appalachian region is full of trees that are old but damaged by years ago when livestock and woods fires were common. Just to say it still has longevity is offensive simplicity? 

[ohiowoodchuck]

I kind of thought the same. I guess I'll hire my own forester to come and take a look. They just pay a certain price for stuff. I'll spend 400 to win 200 just to prove a point. I'll go get some measurements and better pics this weekend and post the results here and see what you guys think again. Thanks for the help. 

[Ron Wenrich]

For an opposing point of view.  If you can't reach your arm around it, then its above a 18" tree.  I found that on an 18" tree, I can reach my arms around and touch my fingers.  Your arms probably aren't the same, but it serves as an approximation.

If that tree was harvested now, there would be no monetary damage.  A scar will form, but how much damage will that scar have?  You'll have a dead spot from bugs and bacteria in the current sapwood.  In all likelihood, the heartwood behind that will be fine, even after the tree heals.  But, you could also seal that spot off and the bugs and bacteria won't have much effect to the health of the wood in that area.

From a milling standpoint, with proper positioning, that defect would have minimal effect.  The defect is removed through edging.  I've sawed logs with similar defect.  It doesn't run that far.  If you sawed right through it, it would only effect a couple of boards. 

The best you can do is to figure out if it is currently a veneer tree.  Most of the value of timber is in the butt log.  If there is a 10' veneer cut and the diameter inside bark is 20", you're looking at about 160 bf.  I'm not real sure of log value in your area, but if veneer is selling for $3/bf, the highest value would be $480.  I would buy that log as a #1, considering there isn't any other defect.  If prices for #1 in the area is $1, then the value is $160 and the differential is $320.  The rest of the tree's value would remain the same.

I haven't seen the tree close up and don't know the values in your area, but that is the only way you'll be able to prove damages.  Somebody else will have to zero in on valuation.  The problem you'll have is in the speculation of future damages.  Even in its current state, you can't tell if there is veneer value.  Once the tree is cut down, a log buyer will spray the end to see if glass worm is present.  If it is, there is no veneer value.  The log value would remain the same.  Lots of speculation that can be argued against. 

[moodnacreek]

That damage may or may not bother the tree in the years to come but any deviation in the bark pattern will down grade a clear butt log. If that was hard maple you would want to cut it soon as it could rot in faster than the tree could grow.

[beenthere]

I kind of thought the same. I guess I'll hire my own forester to come and take a look. They just pay a certain price for stuff. I'll spend 400 to win 200 just to prove a point. I'll go get some measurements and better pics this weekend and post the results here and see what you guys think again. Thanks for the help.

owc
What do you think you should get for that tree damage? 
If $200, then I'd suggest putting that in a claim letter to Aep (?) and send it to them. It will be a document that they can decide if they'll just pay it or ignore it. Ron Wenrich has it pretty well spelled out, IMO.

[Ron Scott]

It doesn't appear that the damage cuts into the cambium of the tree so as to affect

it much. What kind of agreement did you have with the power company for an access road across your property, is it a legal right of way with tree damages defined? How severe was the damaged tree that they paid for in comparison to this one? Is there much difference in the tree damages?

However, this damage will alter any veneer value that the tree might have had, and it is tree damage no matter how slight. If you have concerns, have an impartial professional forester value the tree for its possible damage for any loss of value.

Send the power company a bill if justified with notice that any future access across your property will be denied. I would assume that they would want to keep good landowner relations if your damage assessment is not too far out of line requiring them to seek their own impartial forester for a rebuttal. 

[ohiowoodchuck]

There is no spelled out easement or road they can use to get from the highway to the powerline easement. I just went up and measured the trees at the butts. I'll post some pictures and I also took a video of both trees. They want me to give them a price for both trees. I'm trying to do this without out having to spend 500.00 for a forester. I will if I have to but there not going to reimburse me for it. 

[ohiowoodchuck]

Tree #1 measurement at dbh 

 

[ohiowoodchuck]

Tree #2 measurement at dbh 

 

[ohiowoodchuck]

Here is a video of tree #1. If you guys could help me out with the grade of the tree I'd be happy. If I need to get a stick or if you tell me how I can get a height measurement for the board foot. I'd appreciate it. https://youtu.be/YpWFGQO2yKM

[doc henderson]

so the DBH is 18 and 22 inches.  i used to estimate height by leaning a pole from my bull float know to be 18 feet for three sections against the tree.  you can stand back and see if the tree is 2 or 3 or 4 times the height.  but also if you are wanting saw logs, you can use it as a reference for the lumber bd. feet based on the saw log length estimate.  there are some trig. do dads that I am sure work, but are also and estimate.  

[doc henderson]

in fact, if you told us the height of the yellow tape on the tree and took a pic from a distance, you could use calipers on a printed pic to estimate height of the tree, or length of the log to be.  I watched the video and we need a straight on shot of the length you are interested in knowing.  then plug it into the calculator.  

[doc henderson]

so if the fist log was 10 feet long and 18 inches inside the bark at the small end, then 123 Doyle, 135 Scribner or 145 international

[ohiowoodchuck]

Here is a video of tree#2 https://youtu.be/GjySl0vDDcA

[ohiowoodchuck]

I took the videos so I could get a accurate idea of the grade of the logs. If there is a way to get the height of the useable footage in each tree I would be happy to go back up and get any measurement you guys need to help me out. I don't have no height stick but I can order one if needed. I appreciate any and all help. 

[doc henderson]

about 17 cubic feet and 1,130 pounds for the 18 inch 10 foot theoretical log.

[ohiowoodchuck]

Thanks Doc, any idea on the grade of the logs. 

[doc henderson]

what is the height of the yellow tape in the second video?  DBH is supposed to be about 4.5 feet.  watching the video as you went up the tree, I am guessing/estimating the log is 25 feet to the first large branch.  (if the yellow tape was at 5 feet).  seemed to be about 5 lengths of that distance to the first branch.  22.5 if the tape is at 4.5 feet.

[doc henderson]

I try to be aware of what I know and what i do not know.  Grade falls into the "I do not know category".  

[ohiowoodchuck]

I'll go measure the height of the tape. 

[doc henderson]

i do not know how tall you are, but if you literally placed the tape at breast height, you can measure  yourself and let us know.  A far away still photo would be easier to estimate (than the video), even if printed in B&W on printer paper.  or just the photo for us taken from a ways back.  

[doc henderson]

I estimated the log to be 5 x the height of the tape, so take that distance times 5.  in video 2

[ohiowoodchuck]

Tree #1 tape is at 66" inches. 
Tree #2 tape is at 60" inches. 

[barbender]

I didn't have time to watch a video right now, but I would ask- what angle are you coming at this from? By that I mean, what exactly are you wanting the power company to do? A drop in grade from a stave or veneer log to a #1 could be a good chunk of change, or not much depending on markets. You could build a case of it being a drop in grade for X amount of $$. I would probably come from the angle that some guys have on timber trespass, where they cut over a property line and a tree was determined to have value beyond simple timber value. Wildlife value, anesthetics etc. Some get pretty expensive. They scarred your's up, leaving an entry point for disease. The forester said it shouldn't hurt it...I bet that's not what the same forester would've said if I had banged it up with a forwarder on his timber harvest😊

 I would just tell them you are basically assessing a fine for damaging your trees. If they don't pay it, no more access and take them to court for whatever assessed damage you can.

[doc henderson]

you can do this yourself, of if you want post a pic of the tree from a distance so we can see it all in one shot.  close to the same elevation to min. distortion.  I am not sure how well I am doing on the video.

[ohiowoodchuck]

 

 Tree #1 at 50ft from tree. 

[ohiowoodchuck]

Tree #2 at 50 foot. 

 

[ohiowoodchuck]

I guess I'm trying to determine the grade of these trees before they was damaged so I can bill accordingly.

[doc henderson]

for length, tree # 1 I blew up to 175%, and ground to the yellow tape is 1 inch.  to the smaller branch is 4 inches and to the bigger branch is 6 inches or 6 x 66" = 396 inches or 33 feet.  tree 2 is 1.5 inches to the tape and measures 6.5 inches at that scale to the big branch so 4.33 x 60" +260 inches or 21.66 feet.  that is for the millable log.  total tree could be done.  some good firewood above, but no loss there as long as it grows at the same rate.

[stavebuyer]

Staves. Diameter inside the bark at 16' will be 78% of the diameter measured at breast height. Those trees will basically yield 1 prime stave log each worth about $2.50 bd/ft Doyle. White oak tends to have lots of overgrown knots in the second and third logs in trees of that diameter class. The overgrown knots are visible in the pictures, 10' 4 sides clear on those trees is a stretch. Too open grown and likely root damage from the cleared areas to produce any veneer. Staves will work at 3 sides.

$1.00 bd/ft standing will buy all the white oak stave stumpage one cares to purchase.

A 20" DBH 2 log tree(32' merchantable height) would have roughly 225 bd/ft Doyle so would be worth roughly $225 standing.

The 16' butt cut log would scale about 16" and contain 144 bd/ft and be worth $360 but that's delivered or loaded on a truck in truckload quantities.

The esthetic loss and or replacement costs would be a larger loss than the timber value.

[ohiowoodchuck]

Thank you both. That gives me an idea to bill them for. Of course I'm going to bill as loaded and delivered. 

[TN King]

There is no spelled out easement or road they can use to get from the highway to the powerline easement. I just went up and measured the trees at the butts. I'll post some pictures and I also took a video of both trees. They want me to give them a price for both trees. I'm trying to do this without out having to spend 500.00 for a forester. I will if I have to but there not going to reimburse me for it.

If there is no documented easement or documented right-of-way then they were trespassing on your land. Sounds like they were trying to get to a transmission line, which is different from the line to your residence, barn or well. Lines to your home don't need a documented easement. 
If a power company wants to put a transmission power line through your land they will need to get your permission........This is accomplished by granting an easement on your deed. They will have to pay you for that easement. We have electrical transmission line easements on our lands and they pay us every year for that easement. It just like a lease. They tried to get away with a one time payment. We declined. They caved. Now they have to renew it every ten years. Inflation pays the property tax. 

[ohiowoodchuck]

It was installed in the 50's and there rebuilding it as we speak. I signed a new agreement and got paid very well. There's no access in the easement from the road to the transmission line just thru the property. I kept them from using my driveway and personal bridge to my house by letting them go in on the end of my property. They have a check for me already for the ground the cleared putting in the access road. I held out for as long as I could but I don't have the money to fight a large corporation with a net profit of 54 billion a year. 

[TN King]

Getting paid very well is a good thing.

[beenthere]

Thanks Doc, any idea on the grade of the logs.

In the two trees shown in the two videos, there appears to be no clear faces. Grade stoppers in every face, best I can tell from your video.
A veneer log or No.1 sawlog, three clear faces usually needed. Two clear faces likely at best No. 2 sawlog, and one clear face at best a No. 3 log which is close to a cull log which has no clear faces. Used to be, back in my day that a No. 3 log didn't pay its way through the mill. That is if the mill is sawing for grade and grading is by the NHLA grading rules.
The market may be different now, and unfortunately we don't have the eye and experience of Danny (aka WDH). Might get some tie logs cut from these two trees, and might get some takers from the pallet log buyers.
Maybe stavebuyer has a keener eye for the stave bolts in these two trees. I don't see it, and again back in the day, stave buyers would cut the trees, knock a few of the best looking blocks and then split them to see the grain direction. Most often the split blocks would be left on the ground to rot. That was what I found on my property after Hiram, Walker, & sons went through the white oak sold by the previous owner. I ended up with a lot of down white oak trees in the 25-35" dbh with maybe 10% of the wood taken for staves.

Demand a good payment, and call their bluff. Maybe they will pay rather than fight the claim. But the loss in aesthetics likely will be your best bet, not what the sale value of either tree is based on the log grade. Wish you well. Sorry about the trees.

Log grade rules
https://extension.tennessee.edu/publications/Documents/PB1772.pdf

Tree height calculator
In the toolbox.
Tree Height Calculator

[Ron Wenrich]

I'm not seeing any quality in those trees.  Things are very regional, so what applies in my area may not apply in yours.  That patchy bark tells me there is a good chance of glass worm, which negates all veneer value.  I'm also seeing cat faces which lowers the value of any logs.  At best, I would make them a #2, but that even seems to be pushing it.  The lower log would probably yield a decent 8' log, but I'm still seeing tie material. 

As for aesthetic value, when you get into a wooded situation, that value drops by 90% when you get it away from a homesite.  I've used the aesthetic approach in court, and there is a way of doing it.  It goes by the square inch value, and is adjusted accordingly by the setting.  A single tree in a woodlot would be a tough sell in court.  I've only used it in an urban situation.

The damage on tree #2 is small, and won't appreciably effect the timber value in the future.  It will heal over and leave a slight scar which will come off during the slabbing of the log.  The damage on #1 is pretty sizeable and will probably cause rot problems in the future.  But, it is low enough on the tree to not effect the current value of the tree. 

If I'm working for the utility company, I'd offer to take tree #1 down.  You can do with it what you want.  You're made whole because you haven't lost anything.  If you try future growth, you'll end up having to figure the amount of growth over a given period.  How far out will you take it?  Tree #2 I would offer nothing. 

If I'm working for the landowner, I would give the same advice.  In court, I would come up with a valuation of the tree using stumpage prices in the area.  I think you might be able to get that.  I'm looking at about 250 bf Doyle in the tree.  If current stumpage is $500/Mbf, the valuation would be $125.  

The utility company would probably just pay you for that tree and avoid going to court.  If you try to ask for too much, they'll bring in their foresters and the court will rely on their professional opinion vs yours. 

[ohiowoodchuck]

What would you value tree #2 at. They have agreed to pay for both. I'm not trying to give them a inflated number or lie about anything. I'm just trying to be reasonable nor am I trying to sell a tie log as a veneer. I'm not looking to value the loss over time just the standing value today. 

[doc henderson]

this has been a good exercise.  thanks everyone.

[Ron Wenrich]

The value is in the current stumpage value in your area.  I can't give a dollar figure on that.  This might help you: https://woodlandstewards.osu.edu/sites/woodlands/files/imce/Ohio%20Timber%20Price%20Report%20Fall%2021%20-%20Spring%2022.pdf

I wouldn't go with the highest price in the stumpage.  As you can see, blocking logs are $400-500/Mbf, so don't expect that much more than that for stumpage, assuming the butt log has good quality.  Stumpage value = log value - logging cost. 

No matter what you get, you'll still have the trees.

[ohiowoodchuck]

Yes it has and I appreciate everyone who has commented. It is a very educational lesson also.