Looking for a status from the veteran urban log recovery folks

[Stephen1]

Great conversation here for sure, I have just spent the last month cutting and selling and moving all the wood I have salvaged over the last 3 years. I bought lt40h 5 weeks ago and put 70  plus hrs on it and I have a real job.
I advertised on Kijiji trying to sell the wood as lumber, and firewood slabs, and as table slabs.
Here is what I discovered in my endeavour which is very similar to what everyone has said.
The lumber will not sell unless kiln dried, I have a few thousand bd ft of white and red, oak, maple, silver, norway, elm, and walnut, that did not sell,  so I have taken 2000 bd ft of walnut branches to to the local kiln to be turned into flooring, she also has a shaper to 6 side my wood. as some of you can imagine it was a huge amount of work to turn branches that were any where from 2 ft to 10 ft in length into 3-4-5 in  wide lumber.
The only wood I could sell was to slab any logs into as wide as my saw would allow wich is 28 inches, we did slab some bigger logs 30-45 inches with a chain saw mill. Some sold, not as many as I would have liked, but we did sell.
I had over 200 emails to my add and only 12 people bought wood. Some of these emails had 20 plus replys back and forth, and then nothing, I think they just wanted someone to email them, they were lonely , I guess :D
The walnut comes from buddy that hunts down people that want the walnuts removed, and he has tree service guy with a pick up that he pays to drop the tree, and then he slabs them on site, calls me to help remove the slab, sometinmes we have hired a crane they are so big, and I will also take any branches that we think we can turn into ART and flooring.
As you can imagine with 70 hrs on the mill, I had a lot of time to think about where I was going with this business.
The same spot that everyone has said so far, except you need to think of this urban green wood as art, table slabs and large ones for sure, 30 plus inches wide, 40 is better is really the only way to make money, and i am not sure you can make it at that. You need big equipment to move these big logs to get the big slabs out of them.
I sold some red oak character slabs 42 in wide for 600 a piece but you do not get many of them.
I have 3 white oak slabs 44 inches x 13 ft that I tried to sell for 1000 and 1500 that people loved but will not part with that kind of money, and as one guy said, how do I get it home to work on it. One of them will make a nice table for my cottage , because I have some equipment to move it.
There is my 5 cents on the subject

[woodmills1]

don't leave firewood out of your model

most yard trees are not good enough for any thing better

[Marc Thornton]

Thanks for continuing to talk this through.  I definitely feel more educated about all of this and think it is just making me line everything up better before jumping in with both feet. 

I feel like I need almost a full years operating capital to ensure that I have the time to establish the market.  There is no way I am ruling anything out of the equation including firewood, wood chip mulch, and many others.  I definitely want to be more creative than just grade lumber, i have no misconceptions about how much of the wood can be converted to high value items.  I believe I have a pretty exhaustive list of products that can be made out of urban logs. 

I think the biggest thing all of your discussion has done is modifying my plan to acquire some of the equipment first, like a crane truck to bring logs in and prove that I can actually acquire the logs, the obvious first hurdle.  Without the logs, there is no worry about products or marketing the products.  If I can spend 2-3 months getting a starting stash of logs, making the connections with tree services and taking that time to get the word out before making the big jump.  Like everyone has said, starting as a hobby or weekend deal then before moving to a full time gig. 

I definitely feel it is a long road and the firstyear or two or three might be very difficult.  I believe in what i am loking at doung which helps a lot.  I just want to make sure it can work before i put my whole self into it.  I see the place for this and see the benefit to the community and the overall forest resource.  On top of that, the value of spreading conservation, craftsmanship, and wood art are at my core so much so that I would really enjoy if the endeavor could support something like the urban tree forge in the Pittsburgh area at some point.

Thanks so much for all of your time and thoughts into this.   

Marc.

P.S.  I would really like to hear from Darren or Kelvin if they are still around too to see how they are surviving. 

[woodmills1]

I started in 86   pick up truck and stihl farmboss 045

no start up or capital, but back then a full time job and insurance

[5quarter]

Some very good advice you're getting here...for what it's worth, I'll add a few thoughts.

    Your main goal is to salvage good timber otherwise destined for the landfill. Forget business models...There is no realistic business model on the planet (For reasons stated previously) that would not end in bankruptcy for you. you want to salvage urban timber...ok. Then scare up some basic equipment (trailer, cables chains, a saw etc...) and go get some. Once you have a few decent logs at your place, decide how you could use them. do you have a talent for woodworking? if so, maybe after they're sawn and dried you can make some interesting things that you can either use or sell at a modest profit. remember that drying wood takes time so what ever you have cut today will not be ready for roughly a year. so your biggest investment the first year is going to your spare time; making contacts, getting your logs sawn and of course picking up logs. during that year, save up to buy a used saw. A year from now, if you still are interested, go buy the saw. if not, you haven't lost much. once you have a saw and know some people in the tree biz and have a small stock of good lumber, you have a lot of options. By then you will have a much better idea of what it is you would like to do. as others have said, you must diversify if for no other reason than to keep buying more tools and equipment. after a few years, you may be in a position think about a business model that is actually viable. in the meantime, get out there and rescue some of that timber and by all means, keep your day job. Don't be hasty...and don't be discouraged. TWelsh is exceptional in the tree service biz in that he pursues all the revenue souces the trees offer. most are 1-3 man outfits that would love nothing better than someone like yourself doing a portion of their work for free. Member Daren has never paid for a single log in his life, but he has a huge amount of lumber that is his inventory for the wide variety of things he produces and sells.
www.nelsonwoodworks.com
   You will always be able to sell a little lumber here and there, but really, the highest value of wood is always in the objects that people use. Do not look to lumber sales as a viable way to make $$. and by all means do not think in terms of months...think in years.

Best of luck
   

[Kansas]

All good advice, but there is one more thing to think about I didn't see mentioned here. We get several calls a day from people wanting us to take trees down in their yard. For some, they have priced what tree removal will cost and say "you can just take it if you take it down" to wanting to finance the tree removal by selling me the log. It can be problematic for a tree company not to immediately to remove the tree. And for a number of home owners, they are going to get suspicious if they see logs being removed. It also puts the tree trimmer in a bad position. If he leaves it somewhere where you tear the yard up getting it out, he will take the blame for it. If you take the log he might well get a phone call from an irate customer who just got his bill, wanting to know how much he sold that log for. That goes for cities too. I have a tree trimmer that occasionally hauls in a few logs, either to have us cut them up for him, or sell to us or hold them for the walnut buyer to come in if they are walnut. He does know what makes a decent log. He logged one off the city right of way that was a very nice walnut. In the end, he had to cut it up for firewood because people in the city complained that he was making money off the taxpayer's dime. The city wouldn't let him haul it off in log form.

[zopi]

That is one thing that I have dealt with in tree service, I generally let it be known ahead of time that I own a mill, and that their wood will be recycled into lumber or firewood, and this is usually met with enthusiasm...people like to recycle...I have at times cut a little off my estimate fir folks who really cannot afford the service, by buying their logs...not because I needed to, but brcause it was the right thing to do, and I am always up front about it...some have bought lumber from me out of thier trees, just because thst is a pretty cool thing to do...
Most folks are just hapoy that the wood is not wasted...

[5quarter]

Kansas...That is a very good point about dealing with landowners perceptions. I have several friends who own tree services that provide me with some pretty nice logs, but I always talk with the landowner before I do anything. My friends good reputation is on the line as I am generally the last person the landowner sees regarding the removal. I treat them with every courtesy and take care to damage nothing and clean up before I leave. I make sure I get a handshake and a smile from every landowner. If you are able to work with a tree service, Treat the landowner like they are your client. you not only strengthen your own reputation but the reputation of the tree service, which is every bit as important.

[Al_Smith]

 I don't own a tree service nor do I work for a tree sevice .Having said that I'm closely in contact with one and here's what I can say .

Most times the services will only be interested in giving away the less desirable wood such as cottonwood ,soft maple ,linden etc .Poor quality firewood

The better varieties such as hickory ,oak,black locust etc  many will sell for firewood in the off season for around 160 a cord .Now to somebody around a large metro area like Philly that might not sound like much .However say 3-4 cords a week or so keeps beans on these guys table when work is slack and the wolf is howling at the door .

You got to watch urban trees with a mill because most of them have hidden treaures like nails ,dog chains and all kinds of scape metal that just plays havoc with a bandsaw blade if you try to salvage the lumber .

[Tdawg]

Hey Marc,

You mentioned that you are prepared to look at all avenues-lumber, firewood, mulch, etc. I think you should talk to some local clearing and grubbing companies. As stated, there are a lot of variables in dealing with tree services. The principle behind clearing and grubbing is simple...get rid of the trees. They would much rather bring you a load than pay tipping fees at the landfill. In my experience, you get a lot of junk that is only good for chipping but you also get the good stuff-you have to take the good with the bad. I have taken a 20 yard load of boughs and roots followed a little later by a tri-axle load of 36"x12' hardwood sawlogs. The thing is, you don't need a yard full of equipment for picking up and hauling the wood, it is delivered to you (for free). You can then process it or recycle it as you see fit.

[~rf~]

This is a wonderful thread!! I have been contemplating this very subject for over a year now. It's great to hear feedback from experienced urban sawyers and foresters. In discussions with a few people, it seems that it would mainly be a niche market catering to those people with the same green mentality and regional woodworkers looking for material. The one thing I have come to realize .... people with money will spend money for a product that is marketed to their desire. I've witnessed it first hand countless times.

I look forward to reading more in the forum and continuing my education.

To all the life long woodsmen......Thanks for all the knowledge and info

[shelbycharger400]

like above said..
If you cant use some or any of the byproducts, your up a creek
I built my one mill, still working on the issues.   I will sell some stuff to pay for a small portion of gas involved.  My first foremost plan is to cut stock for my kitchen remodel. Cabinets and flooring ect.  I had a general disgust with whats at the lumber yard, I can cut material, and use the ones i want, sell the others, and what waste i have in wood chunks goes up the chimney, some boards for various things around the house, and some to sell, the sawdust to the compost site.   i have very little on heavy equipment.   Many days go by when i see 4 to 8 ft long logs, of all kinds from firewood up to 3 ft dia , fresh dumped off at the compost site..   :    some are junk,   some are solid.   i have collected 2 + ft dia ash logs... i had to cut them in half just so i could load them.     most of it will go to firewood as they have sat for 2 years now.

[Kcwoodbutcher]

I work with four tree services and a large land clearing company to acquire logs. Two services are of the pickup truck variety and two a good size running multiple crews. The clearing outfit is huge and could easily supply all my needs but they are only practical if they are working close by. I don't expect to get something for nothing so I have an agreement with them that seems fair to all parties involved. First they bring me the logs. I don't have the time to chase them down in a timely manner and the larger operations have the means to move them ( grapple truck ). I do the sawing ,drying, planing and marketing. I sell my lumber for no more than half the price a woodworker would pay retail, sometimes cheaper. When all is said and done we divide the proceeds. The percentages vary but I always get at least half. A poor quality common species I will take much more just to recover the cost. The tree service makes some money on something they were going to pitch with little expense to them ( they are located about a mile from my mill so transport isn't much ). The land clearing outfit will give me anything I want but I have to show up with my trailer. I usually tip the loader. Trees from the land clearing outfit are usually of good to fantastic quality as opposed to the tree services. I sell everything I saw. Some brings a good price and some not so much, but it is always better than firewood prices. There are plenty of woodworkers out there that cannot afford to spend mega bucks on wood for large projects but are tickled pink to get wood that would work for smaller projects at a great price.
I will do anything with wood to make a buck except firewood. I have found that you don't find the niche market, it finds you. You will have a customer that needs something you can supply and he tells his friends and so on. You probably would have never thought of that market by yourself.
One thing about working with trees services is the variety of species they encounter.Seems I have sawn one of everything that grows around here including some ornamentals just to see what it looks like. The weirder the wood the easier it is to sell .
I'm not getting rich doing this and I don't do this full time, maybe half my time is spent on this business and the other half is spent running a stable. One thing I am always careful of is to keep my overhead as low as possible. I have bought all my equipment used and waited until a real bargain showed up before buying. If some day things go belly up or I get too old to work I know in every case I can get more for my equipment than I paid for it.
Good luck with your endeavor and take it slow. It's taken me seven years to get this far and I'm still learning.

[ironstumper]

Marc,
My plan is to have a truck with crane or knuckle boom and also to have a log arch that I can pull with some blocking and a winch if needed for hard to reach areas.

        I still have my logrite "Hugo" arch for sale if you're interested. I live in the Grensboro NC area

[Dodgy Loner]

I used to work for a large, international arboriculture company in Augusta, GA. When we did tree removals, we had to pay about $70/load to dump a load of logs at the local tub grinder. We would have loved to have a place to dump the waste for free. But it would have to be somewhere that we didn't have to sort the good logs from the firewood. When we did a removal of a nice hickory or oak, we would dump the wood behind the office and the locals would come cut it up for firewood for free. We were NOT in the firewood business and had no intention of being in the firewood business.

I did salvage a few cherry trees while worked there. We removed some very nice trees that made me cringe to see them go to tub grinder, but I didn't have the equipment that I needed to be able to save many of them. I always felt that a place like that would be an excellent place to start an urban tree salvage business. If you offered a place that tree services could dump their logs for free, you would be covered up with material in a matter of weeks. Of course, it would have to be in a convenient location, which would mean high property costs and taxes.

[dboyt]

I have been salvaging lumber for years.  The right equipment is key.  I'm just now gearing up for flooring and trim which, I hope, will be a huge step forward.  Try to diversify your sources as well as your markets.  Running a portable mill that I can either use at my place or move to a customer's location has been very helpful.  I've even milled logs in a customer's driveway right in town.  I am also a certified logger and it helps get some jobs to be able to cut trees out in the woods or pasture (never near a structure).  Trailer flooring, barn siding, fencing have been pretty good markets for air dried lumber.  Don't forget to include insurance in your plan, especially if you are moving logs or milling on someone else's property!

[Overlength]

You have to follow your passion. The wood and wood business by nature has many variables. Many years of experience pays off in this business. You should work with someone doing this successfully for a while, and or start with the basics, a truck and trailer, small mill, chainsaw, solar kiln. Plan of spending lot of time not making money until you find your niche. Hard to make profit with just small unsteady volume regular KD lumber. Certainly not full time. Need huge inventory to make enough full time. Need to develop steady business and reliable customers and supply, which takes time because of all the variables. Which keeps it interesting, every day learn something else.

[Rob Bocik]

Many many good posts here. Your question has many questions that have been answered in previous posts. I did not read all of them and I am not sure of your need for this venture to produce $$$$. Bu,burls are always desirable IF you can educate local tree services burls will produce $ with a less effort and equipment.

[skinnyest]

I am also looking to do the same thing.I see this thread is kind of old so im not sure if it will get bumped up with this reply.I am currently a towboat capt and make pretty good money but im very tired of beaing away from home all the time.I have 150 tree services within 25 miles of me.I called 50 of them to see if there was any intrest in my plan.40 said I could have the wood they cut or pay a small price.One even said he would concider paying me to take them away.I also called 50 cabinet makers,furniture makers,pallet makers and contractors and got good results from them too.I am working on a way to remove logs from home owners yards without causing damage.once I get that far I will call the rest of the tree services.A fellow down the road from me has a band mill and works pretty cheep.I figure on using him to cut till the business makes enough to buy my own.I found a fellow that makes counter tops and only uses half of his building so I can lease the other half realy cheep to put in a few small kilns and store the finished wood.For finished wood I figure on starting with some top end homeowner plainers jointers saws ect.and move up to more industrial modles as the business grows.Im hopeing to work it part time for 3 years while working on my boat I work for 2 weeks then get a week off.After 3 years im hopeing to have enough equipment to go full time.I have already applied for an llc. and working on getting insurance.I want to start of doing it by the books so I don't get the sticker shock of insurance taxes etc.all at one time.I guess the big question is what am I missing?

[beenthere]

Welcome to the Forestry Forum
Have you considered the log arch? Remove logs from lawns without dragging them across the lawn to the trailer. See Logrite sponsor ad in left column.

Also, search for the DanG-Deadheader method of lifting logs onto trailers. Just position the trailer so the pull is straight away from the tongue hooked to your vehicle. No fear of tipping the trailer then. One link..
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,17613.0.html

Just be cautious that the weight of the log on the tail of the trailer doesn't lift the car/truck so its brake doesn't hold. We lost a great FF member when that happened to him, and he got caught under the runaway car/trailer and dragged to his death. Just retrieving a log to saw.

[dboyt]

Thanks for the sobering note about lifting the the rear of the truck.  Lots of ways to get hurt or killed in this business.  I think I'll weld a pair of screw jacks on the back of the trailer as outriggers, if it ever stops raining.  I've lifted the back of my truck enough for it to start rolling when I loaded a tractor on a trailer.  Really gets your attention!  Takes a lot of different tools to get a log out of a yard cleanly and safely.  My favored tool for big logs is a Lewis (chain saw) winch, and parbuckle up a ramp on the side of the trailer.  I use a similar technique to load the logs onto my sawmill.