Need help choosing correct saw size.

[Bill Fisher]

Hello,

I have, what is turning out to be, a difficult situation that I need some good advice on.

I'll provide all the background I can think of but the question(s) are simple (I think, I'm probably wrong).  The question is what size saw/bar should I use to cut up a 45" trunk for splitting.  Below are all the details if you need them.
 

There is a tree located 15ft from my house and about 20ft from my neighbor's house that needs to come down because it is dying and is a safety hazard.
I had 3 state licensed arborists come to bid the job and they all said the following (roughly):
- It is dying and is a real, and immediate, safety hazard.  Although it does not have to be taken down this instant it would be advisable to take it down as soon as reasonably possible.
- It is an elm and does NOT look to be dying of Dutch elm disease.
- The tree is about 100 to 110ft tall.
- Access to the tree is difficult because of the houses and the job will take longer than usual.
- Costs of between 4-6K to take it down and remove the wood.
- Trunk diameter is 45" (which I measured, 11ft 10" circumference).

One of the arborists was willing to put the tree on the ground for 3K, taking only the brush needed to provide clearance for working and leaving all other wood on the ground (he said in log lengths, whatever that means exactly I don't know and he didn't specify) for me to buck and split. I was surprised that he encouraged me to work with his crew, safely separated and NOT using his equipment of course, I would be there to provide bull labor only, sweat equity I guess and I readily agreed.  We scheduled a date (Sept 19th) and now the problems start.  The biggest one so far is going to be cutting up the trunk.  I measured the trunk at 11ft 10" in circumference and if I can still do my maths properly that means a 45" diameter trunk.

And here's my question, what size saw should I need to cut the trunk into size for splitting.  I have a MS390 with 20" bar and that should do all the branches but is that enough for the trunk?  That seemed like such an easy thing to find out but I am getting really confused.  I can imagine that I need a compromise between not spending too much on a large saw, that I'll probably not use again, and spending way too much time using a saw too small for the job.  The saw manufacture's web sites were not helpful. The budget would stretch enough for something in the $800, maybe even $900 range (and let's be honest, it won't take THAT much justification to buy another saw ;D) if that means getting the job done quicker, the wife will have my nuts if this job goes longer than 2 weeks. Stihl or Husky, doesn't matter, as I have good dealers for both.  Just need advice for engine size and bar size.

And any other advice on anything I missed.

Thanks for the help,

Bill

[clww]

First, welcome to the Forestry Forum, Bill.
Where are you located?

[Bill Fisher]

Thanks, I live in Trumbull, CT (just updated my profile).

[beenthere]

Welcome to the Forestry Forum.

If you are lucky, then the tree is hollow and the 20" bar will sufice (not the easiest, but can be done).

Second, check around for rental of a larger saw.

Third, look at Bailey's (left sidebar) ad and the cost of buying just a longer bar and chain to go on your saw. This is likely what I would do in your case.
http://www.baileysonline.com/itemdetail.asp?item=CDS+22+SS63&catID=

Other options for bigger saw and bar will of course be more expensive.

More about your experience would be helpful with more (or fewer) suggestions.

Boils down to what it will be worth to you in wood vs. getting the tree cleaned up and out of your hair. ;)

[Ianab]

Well you could do it with the 20" bar, but it would be pretty slow. You would need rip from the end of the log, 20" down, slice off the wings, and leave a central part that you could cut thought. Not as bas is it sounds, as long as the log tapers off fairly quick. But a lot more cutting than a slightly longer bar.

I would suggest hiring a bigger saw for the day, with a 28" bar so a simple cut from each side will get your through the log. Once you get a few cuts done the log will taper down to where the 20" bar will reach from both sides.

Unless you have the need for a larger saw later on, then hiring is the way to go. I think Makita 6400s are a common rental saw, that with a 28" bar would get the job done.]

Otherwise, if you do want a bigger / better saw, a Dolmar / Makita 7901 with a 28" bar is a good option, and probably fit in your budget.

Ian

[Bill Fisher]

Hi beenthere,
- I checked a few rental shops and they have 16 to 18" bars so that didn't help.
- I certainly could/will buy a longer bar and chain if recommended but I read somewhere that my saw won't really pull a longer chain.  Stihl's site does not list anything longer than 20" for that saw (MS390).
- Experience?  Just a home owner with a lot of bad luck lately (just finished paying the painter 6K to repaint the house exterior).  I do spend an inordinate amount of time cutting wood considering I only own ½ acre of land but the thing is full of 60+ year old trees that are starting to fail (there's a 40ft maple that will be next, hopefully at least few years later) but that's just easy cutting.  I do a lot of wood working, carpentry, boat building, furniture making etc. (for what that's worth).  I'm a volunteer firefighter, truck company, so I can climb ladders and break stuff and we train on rotary saws, hydraulic tools and such.  My full time job is as an Equipment Engineer (electronics).  So, little to no tree experience but I think I can at lease handle the cutting once the thing is on the ground.

Please, someone tell me I'm foolish if this is going to be a serious risk.  Work I can take, cutting off my leg I can't (there will be plenty of help from other friends and buddies from the fire department).

- This all seemed so simple when I started planning this out but the more reading I did the more difficult it became.  The dealers I talked to weren't very helpful other than to recommend a bigger saw.  I'm OK with that if it is necessary and useful but as you know, it's a lot of money and I want to make sure I spend what I have left wisely. 

- I did contact a sawyer, very helpful, but he can't handle a log that big.  Plus I'm pretty sure the wife would be seriously *pithed with a stack of would that big just sitting in the yard for the year as it dries.

Here's what I'm thinking about, a 60ishcc saw with a 24 to 28" bar.  That seems like it would be fairly efficient.  But then when I looked up my MS390 it's rated at 64cc and even Stihl doesn't recommend over 20".  But if I stay with my current saw am I going to wear myself out and take weeks to get the trunk cut up.  Now add in that there are Pro saws and consumer saws and they perform different even though the ccs are the same.  And don't even get me started on chain.

See what I mean I keep going in circles.

I not looking for guarantees, just useful advice from people with the experience to know better (and aren't trying to sell me something).

Thanks so far,

Bill.

[Bill Fisher]

Hi Ianab,

Sorry I was writing when you posted. 

I think I need to spend more time looking for a rental saw as I certainly get that recommendation a lot.  So far though their saws have been smaller than mine.

Looks like 28" is where I should be looking.

Thanks,

Bill

[beenthere]

Bill
I wrongly linked to Bailey's with a short bar, and not the 36" I intended to. Could go shorter too.

http://www.baileysonline.com/itemdetail.asp?item=ORF+363PMDD025&catID=

For the $125 I would stick it on the MS390 and just go slow without forcing the saw to work hard.

But you do what you want. Only saying what I would do (and I might even knaw away at it with my 20" bar and be done with it before a new bar arrives ).

And only need longer if the core of this tree is solid. Sounds like it isn't down yet so that is an unkown?

[Ianab]

Stihl only sell it with a 20" bar, but you can push that a bit. It would run a 28" with a Skip chain (less cutters) OK for an occasional job like this. If you were breaking down logs like that on a regular basis you would want more saw, but for a one off, it would be OK.

On a bigger saw, like the Dolmar at 79cc it will run happily with the 28" bar.

You can buy a 36" bar, but the oiler may not put out enough to lube it properly. And with a 36", you still need to cut from both sides.... So you haven't gained really gained anything....

Safety wise, once the log is on the ground running a longer bar isn't really an issue. You plan on keeping well away from that end of the saw while it's running  :D Just blocking up a big log for firewood is about as safe as operating a chainsaw can be. Take all the usual precautions of course.

Ian

[metalspinner]

Bill,
I was in your shoes a few years ago.  I pick up logs around town and on occasion needed a big saw.  A 65" diameter red oak is what finally pushed me to get something big.  A tree guy that called me sometimes happened to have a Stihl 066 for sale without a bar. The local dealership had plenty of bars to choose from and I went with a 36". ;D 

Ask your tree guy.  You never know.  The dealers could have something used, too.

One tip I learned the hard way rather quickly... tap a felling wedge in the cut after you make it down a few inches.  : :-[ There's no way to look good with your 36" bar stuck. :D

[shelbycharger400]

I just put a 32 in on my jonsered 630,  its a 63 cc.  Always set the clutch brake before you fire it up with a big bar!!!! I always start mine firmly planted on the ground.  With the skip tooth it did ok knawin on an old growth ERC that was 3 ft dia.
It wasnt happy ripping the log in half tho. had to pull up and rev it back up. I did have a few times where the log was pinching it up too.   You cant push em with bars like this, just hang on and watch the chips fly.  Few years ago buddy had to have a 44in dia red maple drop'd.  Biggest regret on that job is I didnt have a mill then.  Weigh out your options. Call the tree guy and see how much it will cost to Top the tree, leave the main stem standing , save a few bux and drop that when you have more time.  When my buddy had his monster dropped, their was branches and wood EVERYwhere in his one acre yard.  Also look at the forum map where everyone is, Look for someone with a bar slabber . Elm makes VERY nice lumber, some slabs off that would make some $$$ . Dont plan on 100 percent recovery from tree service and a saw mill operator, but save a slab for a table in your house and sell the rest.  How long is the main stem before it branches out? Im sure a few can chime in but Im thinking $500 for a 3 to 4 inch thick slab at 35-40 in wide , 8 to 10 ft long should be feasable selling, but its going to take a few years to dry.  Last note: I have never seen an elm hollow , parents dropped one several years ago in Golden Valley MN, that was over 4 ft, Solid. Biggest bars they had were 20 inch. 

[shortlogger]

for just one tree i would just get a 28" bar and skiptooth chain for your 039 and take it easy and keep the chain sharp , just dont push the saw harder than it can handle . but if you want an excuss to go all out and buy a big saw i would get a 390 husky or a 066 stihl if you just want to enjoy the hp !!!!

[thecfarm]

I would try to get some limbs under that tree too. maybe before it falls. That way it will be up off the ground and much easier to saw too. That way you won't be sawing into the ground.I hope you have a vertical wood splitter too.You are going to have some sawdust to get rid of too.

[Bill Fisher]

/quote]

The tree is still up, will be cut in Sept.

[Bill Fisher]

Stihl only sell it with a 20" bar, but you can push that a bit. It would run a 28" with a Skip chain (less cutters) OK for an occasional job like this. If you were breaking down logs like that on a regular basis you would want more saw, but for a one off, it would be OK.

On a bigger saw, like the Dolmar at 79cc it will run happily with the 28" bar.

You can buy a 36" bar, but the oiler may not put out enough to lube it properly. And with a 36", you still need to cut from both sides.... So you haven't gained really gained anything....

Safety wise, once the log is on the ground running a longer bar isn't really an issue. You plan on keeping well away from that end of the saw while it's running  :D Just blocking up a big log for firewood is about as safe as operating a chainsaw can be. Take all the usual precautions of course.

Ian

Yeah, I thinking this is the way to go. Funny how hard it's been trying to get the shops to give similar advice.

Thanks.

[Bill Fisher]

....
One tip I learned the hard way rather quickly... tap a felling wedge in the cut after you make it down a few inches.  : :-[ There's no way to look good with your 36" bar stuck. :D

Thanks for that, I keep forgetting about wedges.  I'll pick a few up when I get the new bar and chain. 
(Either way I'll still look like an overweight, middle aged, balding man trying to cut wood.  Ain't  no way that is ever going to look good.  ;D)

Bill.

[Bill Fisher]

... Call the tree guy and see how much it will cost to Top the tree, leave the main stem standing , save a few bux and drop that when you have more time.  When my buddy had his monster dropped, their was branches and wood EVERYwhere in his one acre yard.  Also look at the forum map where everyone is, Look for someone with a bar slabber . Elm makes VERY nice lumber, some slabs off that would make some $$$ ....

Thanks, good ideas.  I especially like the idea of getting some slabs cut from the trunk.  Don't know if I'll have the time but I will spend a few minutes investigating.  The hell with selling it, if I can salvage a nice chunk like you're suggesting I'll make somehting from it (wish I had thought of that).

Bill

[Bill Fisher]

for just one tree i would just get a 28" bar and skiptooth chain for your 039 and take it easy and keep the chain sharp , just dont push the saw harder than it can handle . but if you want an excuss to go all out and buy a big saw i would get a 390 husky or a 066 stihl if you just want to enjoy the hp !!!!

Thanks, good advice I think.  There seems to be a consensus on using my existing power head and adding a 28" bar and skip chain.
(Do you ever really need a good reason to buy another tool? ;D)

[Bill Fisher]

I would try to get some limbs under that tree too. maybe before it falls. That way it will be up off the ground and much easier to saw too. That way you won't be sawing into the ground.I hope you have a vertical wood splitter too.You are going to have some sawdust to get rid of too.

Thanks, good points.  I will be working with the arborist, I still am surprised he encouraged this, and planned on having the trunk placed just so but I hadn't considered the volume of sawdust that might be generated (I should have, I watched enough video).  Splitting is expected to be the least of the work as I have considerable reasources from firefighter buddies, I may yet have a loader available to move wood (our chief and another FF work for the Town Public Works).

[Bill Fisher]

Thanks to you all for taking time from your day to help me out.  And it has been a BIG help.  As I said above, it has been very frustrating getting good advice about proper equipment to work this job which came as a surprise.  Even considering that I was willing to spend some money I couldn't get either dealer to give specific recommendations about saw size and bar length (much less all the other tips you guys have given me).  I would have expected, at the very least, one of the dealers to say "you need this V eight powered saw equipped with the unobtainium bar, racing chain and gold brazed carbonite cutting teeth.  Just sign here for on your third mortgage" but I didn't even get that.

I think you all have given me a good, practical, starting point.  Just for fun I'll get back to you, with a few pictures, after the work is completed and let you know how it went.

Again, THANKS for all the help.

Bill

[beenthere]

Just for the record, how much have you used the MS390? in days, or weeks, etc of experience?
- or in terms of cords or bdft cut up? or how many trees felled?

Your saw dealers you visited may have been concerned about getting you overboard with a bigger saw at an expense they didn't feel comfortable hanging around your neck. They have a conscience too. ;)
Also, I suspect many or most dealers don't have bigger saws than 20" bars readily available in their inventory.

Will be interested to know if they have a 28" bar and the skip chain available to you.
But wish you well getting the tree cut down and then up.

[metalspinner]

I ran into an employee of a local stihl dealer the other night at the schools open house.  He was bragging they just sold an 880 to a tree service.  That saw has been on their rack for a couple of years.  A few days after the sale, the new owner came in to get a smaller bar. :D  I can't remember what was on it, but it was at least 4'.

[Bill Fisher]

Just for the record, how much have you used the MS390? in days, or weeks, etc of experience?
- or in terms of cords or bdft cut up? or how many trees felled?

Your saw dealers you visited may have been concerned about getting you overboard with a bigger saw at an expense they didn't feel comfortable hanging around your neck. They have a conscience too. ;)
Also, I suspect many or most dealers don't have bigger saws than 20" bars readily available in their inventory.

Will be interested to know if they have a 28" bar and the skip chain available to you.
But wish you well getting the tree cut down and then up.

Not much experience falling, only a few small ones in my yard, anything over 15, 20ft or so I leave to the pros.  Actual use of the saw(s) cutting (bucking) logs into firesize pieces is maybe 100 hours over the last 15 years.  Probably a bit more, I don't keep track.  Definately spiked 2 years ago, remember the freak snow storm in Sept and the tropical storm the East coast got?  That was 2 days of cutting to clear my yard as well as helping out around town as a FF.

Your probably right about the dealers.  Still seems odd that I couldn't get a decent conversation going though (remember I had a few bucks to spend and was willing to do so if they convinced me it was useful).  You guys have been great and how hard was that?

Bill

[Leigh Family Farm]

... You guys have been great and how hard was that?

Bill

You have no idea how hard it is to keep up the greatness! ;)

[Bill Fisher]

... You guys have been great and how hard was that?

Bill

You have no idea how hard it is to keep up the greatness! ;)

Hi Kilgrosh

OK, maybe I deserved that  ;D.

Maybe I can explain better what I mean.  I'm a fairly experienced amateur wood worker,   working the end produce as it were.  About 60% of my house has been rebuilt by me, all of the kitchen and bathroom cabinets are mine.  I made 2 big book cases for the study and several tables.  I built the garden shed.  Yada, Yada, Yada and so on (not bragging, just setting the stage).
If you had asked me what equipment you would need to complete a woodworking project (that I had experience on) I would be able to give you considerable advice.  More questions would refine the advice and I expect that when all was said and done you would then have a realistic idea about what you were in for.
Just like what happened here.  Everyone was very helpful and I think I have a good working knowledge about what I need to complete the job.

But when I explained the project to 2 different dealers all I got was blank looks and little to know practical advice. I couldn't believe it.  This is a definitive job, I had the physical dimensions and a working time frame and I got nothing back.  It's OK now as the board has filled in the gaps that I needed but these guys are in business to sell dopes like me the equipment and advice to do this work.  I still can't believe it.

Please don't think me arrogant.  I've had most of that beat out of me over the years through one stupid stunt or another; that is exactly my point I was going to people who are supposed to know more than me to get their advice and I was willing to pay them for the their expertise (within what I could afford of course, which is also the point of this project as I can't afford to have the entire tree removed by the arborists).


Of course I don't really know what I'm in for, not entirely, but I know how to work hard and I'm willing to laugh at how naive I was (I have a feeling my yard is going to be VERY full of logs) but at the least I will have learned something and have a great story to tell.

I'll try to re-post with details and pictures when the job is done (not that you guys don't see this stuff all the time but you may get a laugh or two out of it.  You've earned it).

(now if you want to talk sailing, that's a opened ended topic! (I buoy raced for about 10 years and now I'm building a 12 ½ in the garage))

Bill