Jeff and Chet visit Menominee Saw

[Jeff]

PART 1

Earlier this week while I was visiting in Da U.P., Chet and I were tinkering with the cable drive Barker Rimsaw that Noble had sent to me via Roy May, who delivered it half way across the country to me at the Paul Bunyan show in Ohio. Anyhow, we had the blade off and was discussing the manufacturer of that very blade, Menominee Saw, one of our Forestry Forum sponsors. Since they were only a couple of hours drive from Chet's we decided to take off the next morning and go visit this company that has been building, repairing and sharpening all kinds of saws for over 100 years.

We arrived unannounced about 11 o'clock that next morning (toting that rimsaw blade), entered the office and stepped up to the counter and asked if Ben Mroz might be there. The gal that greeted us said, yes, but he was leaving for an appointment in just a couple of moments. We said we just wanted to say hey, so she steped back around the corner and said "there was a couple of fellows here wanting to say hello before you leave". Ben stepped around the corner and we introduced our selves. Ben and I had talked several times on the phone but had never met in person.

Let me tell you folks, if you get treated as customers even a quarter as well as we did as unannounced visitors, you will be returning to Menomiee saw time after time after time for thier service.

We showed Ben the Saw blade and asked if he thought they might be able to fix it up. Pretty dumb question on my part since they built the thing probably 40 years prior to that. Of course they could fix it, and after the tour Ben set us up on, if I wanted I now know they could build me a brand new one.

If it's a saw, they can fix it. If its beyond fixing, they can build it. If its dull they can make it sharper than it has ever been.

Ben did have an appointment and had to leave, but hooked us up with another gentlemen named John, who took us through a set of doors on our first part of our tour. To visit with Peach.



Peach is the Saw Filer for Menominee Saw. Quite a fellow. Hopefully you will all get to know him as he has become a member of the forum since we met. Peach has been working on the big saws for many years at Menominee Saw. He has reparied or tensioned now over 22,000 head saws. TWENTY TWO THOUSAND!  Figure that out. :D  No wonder he has arms like Popeye. thats a bunch of steel to be flipping around.  Its very clear after spending just a little time with Peach that THIS MAN KNOWS HIS CRAFT!

Of course, as we walked in, the Rimsaw blade was noticed. I showed it to Peach and we talked of its origins. I told him that they had made that blade many years before. Peach is very proud of his company's history and we had a great conversation revolving around one of the things near and dear to me. OLD STUFF!

Here is a photo of Peach taking a good look at the Rim Saw blade.




Although I have been a circle saw head sawyer for over 25 years, I  have never had the opportunity to see a "Saw Doctor" at work. I mentioned this to Peach, and that was all it took to get to see him do his thing on the next blade he was working on. A Circle saw blade sent to him clear from Colorado. Peach works on blades from all around the country, not just Michigan.

More to come. Next up? Photos taken as Peach gets that old saw from Colorado ready to run again for an old Belsaw Mill....

[MULE_MAN]

OK !!!  I'm ready for  Part two . Where's it at  ???  Your going to have
to pick up the pace a little Jeff.   ;)  ;D

[Jason_WI]

If you were at Menominee you were only 18 miles from my place........across the bay that is ;D ;D

Where's part 2?

Jason

[sprucebunny]

This is great ;D
I always wanted to know how they tuned up a circle blade.
That part about it being a left or a right....you gonna tell us that ???

[Tom]

This is starting out to be a good story.  I  like stories.

[tnlogger]

 8) 8) lessons in how to rebuild a saw 

[Doc]

But when do we get the next lesson? I wanna SEE!

So far it is really cool. I wanna see some more.

Doc

[Jeff]

 :D I'll add some more some time today.

[Tom_Averwater]

Ok, it's time for more. 8)

[chet]

I weren't too sure about ole Peach and da saw Doc thing at first.  ???  When he was gonna give us a little demonstration on da saw dat he was trueing, he turned out da lights.   :-\ 
But once he started explainin' things, while he worked and checked da head saw it all made sense.    Even if we were in da dark.  :D

[Jeff]

Part 2

The saw Peach was working on, as I said had come from Colorado, it had probably been sitting for years and was quite corroded, especially one side where Peach figured it had been sitting in sawdust. It is destined to go back and bring an old belsaw sawmill back to life. Peach had the saw cleaned up when we arrived, he had spent over an hour on it just getting the rust and scale off. My biggest surprise from Peach as Chet says, was when he snapped off the lights and said he works in the dark. I thought he was kidding. He wasn't. It was pretty dark with just a sliver of light coming in from one wall toward where peach was working. All of the photos I have in this area were taken in those conditions with flash. They came out better then I thought they might.

Hopefully if I get a few facts askew here, Peach will jump in and correct me.  ;D

Peach began by checking the gauge of the saw. He was also checking for thinning of the plate.


I soon learned, that the darkness and the light were both tools of the saw filer. What you don't see in the picture below is the sliver of light underneath the gauge Peach holds against the saw.


The guage is a 560 RPM gauge. He places the guage on the saw at a certain position between the eye of the saw and the rim and flexes the saw. The saw, if tensioned correctly, follows the form of the guage. If it doesn't, you can easily see where it does not by the light passing between the saw plate and the guage. Now you don't do this in just one place. You have to check in several places around the circumference of the saw. After some checking Peach told us that the saw was actually in pretty fair shape but he thought that the rim needed to be tightened a little bit to close up the gap he saw under his guage. He did this by easily moving the saw over (Popeye) to the machine below for "rolling" the rim. I cant remember the name of the machine or the number of tons it takes to roll that rim even, but it did it in short order.



After rolling the rim, Peach put the guage back on the saw both as it layed down, and after standing it up. The rolling had brought the saw into the guage and showed that it needed no further work. I was sorta disappointed not to get to see him pounding a saw, but I can guarantee you, I am going back up there again if he'll let me, and spend some more time and find out how he goes about that too!

Peach and Chet got to visiting and turned out they know quite a few of the same folks.

Talk turned back for a few moments on my rimsaw blade. I told Peach it was no hurry, but it was obvious the way he was looking at it he was plotting in his mind the way he was going to attack it.

Peach, I want to thank you for the visit, the demonstrations and your time. and also, Welcome to the Forum!

More to come...
Next up: More Saws!

[Jason_WI]

Chet,

He was just keeping you in the dark. He didn't want to give away his blade hammering secrets.

Jason

[asy]

OK !!!  I'm ready for  Part two . Where's it at  ???  Your going to have
to pick up the pace a little Jeff.   ;)  ;D

Hey!

Go easy on the man...

He's still recovering from the CARDIAC ARREST that DanG CKTate gave him this morning.

Now, I'm not silly enough to post in THAT thread...  So I'll Say what I gotta say here...  ;)

CK! You were VERY NAUGHTY! If'n you were closer I'd put you over my knee for that one!!!

Just remember, it's already APRIL 2nd here! And I wasn't expecting an April fools joke on April 2nd!

I was figuring maybe all those Paulownia had seeded and yer wife had maybe banned ya from the forum!

We're all waiting for the apologies, as are several ambulance services around the globe.

asy :D   oh wait, thats:  >:(

[sigidi]

Great stuff Jeff,

Keep it coming...

[Roxie]

Watching a master of their trade do their work is always interesting and fun.  I gotta wonder how a fella that looks like Peach, got the nickname Peach.   

[SwampDonkey]

Although I don't own a saw for milling I'm quite interested in how folks use them and keep them running. This is quite an interesting thread and well worth taking it all in. It's quite an exorcise in itself just posting and typing the story behind them, and just as important trying to remember what peach told ya's while he was working away.

Good stuff Jeff et al

[submarinesailor]

Jeff,

Outstanding story line!   8) 8) 8) 8) Waiting for more.  I maybe a band runner (WM LT15), but I love this stuff.

subsailor

[chet]

Jeff,

Outstanding story line! 8) 8) 8) 8) Waiting for more. I maybe a band runner (WM LT15), but I love this stuff.

subsailor

They do bands too..........big bands.......little bands ........and in between bands........dat part of da story is still to come. 

[Captain]

Thanks for the intruduction Peach,and welcome. ;D

Out of curiousity, do you see many of the smaller diameter circle saws coming in, say 18" to 26" in diameter??  How does tensioning them differ from your lower RPM headsaws??

Thanks and Welcome again,

Captain

[SwampDonkey]

Your providing a 'GREAT' service to the sawmill community their peach. Glad to have ya on board. This is a great opertunity for us folks to learn, or at least see, how things are done to keep them blades run'n in circles. ;D

[chet]

Peach,
I'm gonna give er a try today and see if I can get my ride down my driveway.
I'm hopin' to take a cruise ta Iron Mountain. Da real trick will be gittin' er back in da yard.   :-\

[Doc]

And I thought I was hard core riding int he rain and cold down here! Geez! I don't care to kick mine over at 24 degrees......

Doc

[sjh]

Peach
Do you guys cut blades down? I have a 56" f that I would like to make into a 52" b pattern.
Thanks
Scott

[Jeff]

Part 3

As much as Chet and I were enjoying our visit with Peach and watching him work on the saws that I know best, we knew it was time to move on to see more. Menominee Saw as I mentioned, deals in all kinds of saws. The next area we visited was for smaller circle saws, such as gang saws and edgers, or swing mills or anything that utilizes circle saw technology. They do anything you want there from getting you new blades to reconditioning what you already have, including insert tooth, solid tooth, or re-tipping of Carbide or Stellite tips. Below is just a glimpse of some of the machines in this part of Menominee saw.



Other machines in this general area are busy grinding chipper knives and veneer knives, working on cut-off saws, you name it, the list gos on and on!

I know, this part was short, but

Lots more to come!

Next up, Menominee saw is big! Across town to another complex! Bandsaws!

[Captain]

Thanks Peach, having a professional blade guy on the Forum is Awesome

8)

Captain

[UNCLEBUCK]

Thanks for the tour !   Welcome Peach !  I got no saw trouble yet after switching from a old Disston to a new Simonds but I am sure I will have questions sooner or later especially on the inside collar stuff . Looks like you are needed here by many .

[Sawyerfortyish]

Welcome to the forum peach.  I once visited a saw Dr at seneca saw works in NY. So I have an idea of what goes on to get a saw to run just right. I wish you guys were closer. I have two blades out being worked on right now.  Good saw docters are in short supply few and far beetween. Hammering is becomming a " Lost Art" as there are not very many new people learning the trade.

[MemphisLogger]

Peach,

Ya ever heard of the Graves in MS/TN?

One of my best buddies is inheriting the family trade and hammerin' saws now. He's a fine blacksmith and a good arborist, but truin' saws seems to have got 'hold of him. 

[Ed_K]

 Hello Peach, glad your with us.
This is got to be the  8) 8) 8) thread. I've alway had an interest in saw doctor'n, guess from being a machinest most of the younger yrs. I like reading the how too's in the northern logger.
Got some more Jeff?

[Sawyerfortyish]

Yea come on Jeff we want more!!!!!

[Jeff]

 :D

Coming soon!  :D I'll try for tomorrow.

[Ed_K]

 Peach, whats the largest dia. saw you ever wrestled?

[Jeff]

Peach, maybe someday you'll get this one. ;D It even makes me look small!


here is a link to the story on it. Its only about a 35 minute drive away from me.
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=3496.0

[asy]

CRIKEY!

You wouldn't want to trip over in front of that one!!!

asy :D

[Jeff]

Peach, justunder the picture is a link to another part of the forum that tells the story of the saw.

[maple flats]

Hey Peach, or anyone else
I have a Peterson swing blade and the instructions mention tensioning the blade but I'm not sure what that is, why it's needed, how one knows when it's needed, or how it's done. Help, anyone. ??? ??? ???

[Captain]

You know Maple, you should come for some training on your mill sometime.  I'm actually having another Demo day in South Randolph Vermont on May 7th.  That is a little closer to you.

Tensioning the blade is absolutely necessary to keep the blade running straight and true in the cuts.  It actually installs a slight amout of cup in the blade that straightens out when it gets to the right RPM.  Without the proper amount of tension, the blade will not hold a true line in the cut. 

I had an out-of-tension blade on the mill a few weeks ago, and I wished I had thought to take some pictures and post them.  There are a lot of swing blades out there with out of tension blades that the operator does not even realize. 

Another thing, tensioning is absolurely an art form as others have mentioned in this thread.  Folks like Peach are hard to comeby, I know of just a few folks in New England that I would trust to hammer my blades.  ;)

Captain

[maple flats]

Thanks Peach. My blades I think are 21" or there abouts. I'll need to get the rpm, should be able to calc. eng at 3600 but not sure of gearing right now. The kerf is 5/32 (actually 5.5mm) carbide teeth with 8 teeth on the softwood blade and 6 on hardwood. I'll be down to the mill tomorrow and check out the rpm and verify the other info. ??? 8)  The blades attach to a hub with 4 flush bolts and a center hub but no collars unless you would call the hub which is probably almost 5" in diameter a collar.

[chet]

Got da camera back so I took a couple of picks of da Rim Saw dat Peach fixed up fur Jeff.



Jeff, lookin' at da pic it looks like Peach might have cut da arbor hole a wee bit too big.  :D  :D  :D  :D  Just kiddin' Peach  ;D



Dem teeth are just beggin' ta chew on some wood.    Looks really good Peach, can't wait ta try er out.   8)

[Jeff]

Man, that looks like we better be careful putting it back together. :D  Looks good Peach!

[tnlogger]

jeff thats one saw i'd like to see run. bet it'll thow some sawdust.

[maple flats]

Any Peterson owners out there know the RPM of a peterson? I will try to calc if I don't get an ans. ??? 8) ???

[Captain]

Maple, it is on the blade information sheet (green) that came with your mill. 

Your engine runs at 3600 RPM, and your gearbox is 1.9:1......

Captain

[Sawyerfortyish]

Jeff just how does that saw mount up ? What kind of arbor does it fit?What kind of cutting was done with it?

[Jeff]

Here is a thread about the Barker Rim Saw. Bro_Nobles Granddad's company.

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=1161.0

I just remembered, I owe this thread some more Menominee saw installments!

[Sawyerfortyish]

Soooo your holding out on us

[Jeff]

 :D  Nah, well YES, sorta.  :D

[RMay]

Jeff did you get the piece that was broke welded on the rim saw ;D

[Jeff]

Nope, sumpthin even better. It helps ta know the grandson of the manufacture's owner. ;D Noble found me a replacement part.  Roy, Chet and I installed the replacement cable you delivered with the saw the week we went to Menominee. I ended up leaving the saw at Chets. Next time we get together we are going to put a new silicone sleeve on the drive cable.  Corley5 and I are going to an old engine swap meet friday, and I hope to find the perfect engine for it so we can play with it at da pig roast. If not Friday, I think Shop Teacher might have a line on one, not sure if its compatible yet though.

[Corley5]

 8) 8) 8)  Jeff's got something in mind.  I'm on a mission of opportunity and curiosity ;) ;D   I'm sure the big is too ;)

[Peach]

Got da camera back so I took a couple of picks of da Rim Saw dat Peach fixed up fur Jeff.



Jeff, lookin' at da pic it looks like Peach might have cut da arbor hole a wee bit too big.  :D  :D  :D  :D  Just kiddin' Peach  ;D



Dem teeth are just beggin' ta chew on some wood.    Looks really good Peach, can't wait ta try er out.   8)

[Roxie]

He's in and out of our life so fast.............and I wanted to hear about Vegas!

[chet]

He's in and out of our life so fast.............and I wanted to hear about Vegas!

Seein' as how Peach ain't braggin' about da Vegas trip it is probably a purty safe bet ta asume da boy lost.    :D  :D  :D  ;D

[asy]

Seein' as how Peach ain't braggin' about da Vegas trip it is probably a purty safe bet ta asume da boy lost.    :D  :D  :D  ;D

Yup, even by his own admission...

8) howdy boy's !  been on vaca. in vegas ...    ...nope , they stung us bad !! >:( 

asy :D

[moosehunter]

Jeff,
I keep checkin' back here for the pics of the band blade portion of M. saw. How 'bout it?
MH

[Jeff]

I know I know. :D  Its still coming soon. Maybe I'll see if I can get my writing bones in gear for this evening.

[Jeff]

Part 4

As we were finishing our visit up with Peach, Ben Mroz returned from his earlier appointment and asked if we would like to go tour the band saws facility. SURE! 
Here's Ben.




Ben jumped in his Jeep and Chet and I took out after him in the Forestry Forum truck. We drove a few blocks to arrive at the other complex. As we walked in we saw crate after crate of bandsaw blades ready to ship. These were not your portable mill type bands, these were come biguns! 12 inches wide!




We walked a little bit further and saw this very very very very long lay out table with lengths of double cut band saw blades on it. (teeth on both edges.) Ben explained to us that band saws are actually must be tensioned, and have a dish, much like a circle saw. this cup in the blade holds it on the wheels and allows it to cut in either direction. These blades had been manufactured from coils of steel that were on the opposite end of the room.



Behind us, Ben showed up the Welding Machine that welds and and heat treats these monster size blades. For some reason my picture did not come out of this machine, I do remember that it was one very very expensive machine. I do have a shot of a blade that was still smokin hot from just being welded on this machine.



Here is a shot of a some of the larger saws ready for sharpening. We put Chet in it for scale ;)  (sorry about the photo quality, this area of the plant was quite dark)



From this area we entered a huge room full of machines dedicated to the Big Bandsaw blades. Here Menominee saw completes the production of new saws, but also sharpens sets and repairs customer saws from all over the United States. At the opposite end of this room is also where they were re-tipping saws with Stellite tips



More to come!
Next up:
Into the dungeon to meet Terry and to see where Menominee Saw builds, sharpens, sets and repairs the bandsaw blades that many of our Forestry Forum members use every day.

[tnlogger]

 jeff that is one place i would love to go see.  8) 8) Great job just like being there ourselves. thanks

[Peach]

Was very cool to revisit FF . I thought . Wow ! 22,000 saws . Well . I'm at nearly 33,00 now . Lots of new peeps and some great articles and questions . 🍑

[Jeff]

PEACH OLD FRIEND!!!