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Setting and Sharpening Techniques

Started by kelLOGg, May 26, 2010, 07:39:32 PM

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kelLOGg


I've learned mostly by doing so I thought I would run what I do up the FF flagpole to get comments on how I can improve. I have Cook's setter and Cat Claw sharpener, run Simonds Red Streak 1.25 inch 7/8 pitch bands. The order of the steps is:

1) Clean teeth usually by scraping w/ a tool steel bar, sometimes a wire brush, but whatever I use I would really like to speed up this step. Maybe if I left it on the mill and ran lubricant over the band for a few minutes I could effectively clean it?

2) I set the teeth before sharpening so the burr from sharpening will not affect the set measurement. I always have to over-push the set lever to achieve the set I want. For example, if I want a 0.030 set I will overpush the lever to 0.050 to 0.060 inch and release. Usually the tooth will relax back to 0.030 but sometimes it is more and I have to pry it back with a screwdriver blade and repeat. I can usually figure out how much to overpush but sometimes it takes more and sometimes less. I presume this is due to variation in the steel hardness between teeth?

3) Sharpen. I start the tooth advance and grinder so that it misses the tooth and gullet completely and then make small adjustments until I make contact. I usually make one pass taking off a minimum (I hope). Frequently I want to re-adjust the settings during the grind but am never confident in doing this. Sometimes I think I am taking off too much and sometimes too little and this can be the case from tooth to tooth (possibly because I have adjusted the setting during the grinding on a previous sharpening.) Does anyone re-adjust during grinding?

Thanks,
Bob
Cook's MP-32, 20HP, 20' (modified w/ power feed, up/down, loader/turner)
DH kiln, CatClaw setter and sharpener, tandem trailer, log arch, tractor, thumb tacks

fishpharmer

Kellog, look at member/moderator  Tom's  website.  He has some outstanding info on sharpening and setting.   Some great stories too. 
Built my own band mill with the help of Forestry Forum. 
Lucas 618 with 50" slabber
WoodmizerLT-40 Super Hydraulic
Deere 5065E mfwd w/553 loader

The reason a lot of people do not recognize opportunity is because it usually goes around wearing overalls looking like hard work. --Tom A. Edison

bandmiller2

Bob, I have a cats claw sharpener and basically do as you said.When I put a band on I set the machine so it dosen't cut, start the feed, and adjust till I'am getting good but not hard wheel contact, and yes I'll adjust slightly as I'am sharpening.You want to get to know which way the adjustments work so slight adjustments can be made with confidence.Springback is something we just have to live with when setting bands,it helps if the body of the band is held securely wile you push the set in.Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

Bibbyman

We sharpened our own WM blades years ago using the Wood-Mizer equipment at the time – stone grinder and single tooth setter.  Then for the past 10 years or so we used the WM Re-Sharp.   A couple of months ago we went back to grinding our own but with much better equipment – WM CBN grinder and dual-tooth setter.

I'm relearning the process over again.  I tried setting first (over setting) and then setting after.   I found with my limited test that I got more consistent results by setting after sharpening.  I don't de-burr the teeth as I can detect very little burr on the teeth and it seems to be about even on each side.

When grinding,   I try not to make adjustments as I go along.  With the last batch I did,  I recorded the width of each blade from back to bottom of gullet and sharpened the tallest one first and then in descending order.  Thus adjustment for the next blade was minimized.   I tend to make adjustments on the first few teeth.  Then I grind around and a little more to get the teeth that were involved in the adjustment. 

I try my DanGest to get the blades in the setter to expose the same tooth height above the anvil every time.  The handicap to the WM dual point setter is that it's not equipped with on-board dial indicators to tell you how much set has been put in a tooth.  You have to pull it from the setter and use a gauge provided with the system.   The set is likely not exact as I'd like it so another turn in the setter and then out for the gauge.

The nice thing about having a separate set gauge is that it's easy to use it to check blades you may suspect of having set problems.

I've found even with the more careful adjustment of the blade height in the setter,  it will still not produce dead-nuts consistent set from blade to blade.  I suspect three possible causes,  1) One blade is from a different batch than another,  2) One blade has been sharpened more times than another and maybe stiffer or not as stiff – thus the spring back is different and 3)  I've noted that the teeth on some blades are rounded on the "back side" – thus the setter has less material to push against.

We have the Lube-Mizer system on our mill and saw mostly oak.  The blades come out pretty clean.  I make no special effort to clean them before sharpening.  What little sawdust that may be stuck to the blade is wash/worn/ground away during the sharpening process.

From the input I got from the post I made on the CBN and dual-point setter,  everyone performs the sharpening process in some different sequence.  Sharpen then set,  set then sharpen,  use sharpen one blade to death,  sharpen a couple of times before setting,  even sharpen and never set. 


Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

Brian_Rhoad

Try NOT to adjust while sharpening. Every time you change the settings while sharpening you change the tooth profile slightly. Once you have the right settings for a blade profile, you should only have to adjust the height setting. If the grinding wheel doesn't hit all of the teeth while grinding, let the blade continue around the sharpener and do a second or third pass. Eventually the wheel will grind all of the teeth, if you just change the setting for the height each time around.

I don't clean the blade unless it has alot of buildup from pitch or is rusty.


Bibbyman

One big improvement with the CBN grinder is that the wheel cuts the whole tooth profile and never changes shape or wears down.   It's not foolproof by any means but it takes art and science of properly shaping the stone,  keeping it in shape and compensating for the wear.

I'll cycle the tooth advance a couple of teeth (grinding wheel not turning) to make sure the blade is seated in the guides, etc.   Then I'll turn the cycle rate down real slow until the grinding wheel hits the bottom of the drop of the grinding wheel where I stop the tooth advance.   Then I take my thumb and rotate the grinding wheel.  If it does not touch the blade,  I lower it slightly until it gust barely makes contact but still rotates easy.   I check the best I can if the wheel is against the tooth face.  Then I cycle the grinding wheel up to the top of its travel and again stop the tooth advance.  I turn on the oil bath and then the grinder – giving it a couple of seconds to reach top speed.   I slowly ramp up the tooth advance speed for the first few teeth.   I make adjustments until I get a clean grind of the face, gullet and back face.  Then I ramp up the tooth advance speed,  place the stop magnet on the backside of the blade, and go work on setting the blade that just came off.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

Chuck White

I think I've convinced myself not to adjust the sharpener during the sharpening process.

I clean shavings and pitch, etc out of the gullet by placing the blade in the setter and the support brackets and turn it by hand and scrape each gullet and tooth face with an old pocket knife.

I use Cat's Claw sharpener and setter.

I turn down the feed speed (all the way) and without the grinder turning, adjust contact to just barely touch the gullet and then adjust to lightly touch the face of the tooth.

Once these adjustments are done, I approach my starting point, the weld, and turn the grinder on and the feed speed up to about 65 and hold the grinder up so it doesn't touch the blade and when it comes up just before the tooth where the weld is, I let it go.  So the first tooth sharpened is the tooth where the weld is.  When the weld comes back around, I turn both switches off before it goes down into the weld tooth.

~Chuck~  Cooks Cat Claw sharpener and single tooth setter.  2018 Chevy Silverado and 2021 Subaru Ascent.
With basic mechanical skills and the ability to read you can maintain a Woodmizer  LT40!

bandmiller2

When I speak of adjustment wile sharpening its not much usally to compensate for wheel wear,a few thousands of an inch means little.I set before sharpening and not afrade of a little more set than the band came with ,set is your friend.My bands are lubed with oil/diesel mix applied with a wick,I'am seldom troubled with buildup or rust never had to clean before sharpening.As I'am adjusting the stone to the band when its set right I make a mark with a majic marker thats the start point ,don't have to find the weld. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

Chuck White

I use red fingernail polish to mark my starting point and I usually mark the weld.
I mark the weld because it's rough and the mark will usually be permanent.
~Chuck~  Cooks Cat Claw sharpener and single tooth setter.  2018 Chevy Silverado and 2021 Subaru Ascent.
With basic mechanical skills and the ability to read you can maintain a Woodmizer  LT40!

Larry

I converted from a push style setter to a screw setter some years ago.  Still works the same as you described but I hardly ever overset a tooth, plus it's easier, more accurate, along with being faster.

Seems like when I sharpen away more than 1/8" of the band the setting becomes more erratic.  I thought maybe because I had ground away the temper, but just a guess.  I never thought the dual tooth setters were very accurate...I figured if the board looks well sawn who cares if the set is off a bit.
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

ely

i do exactly the same as you bob. except i have learned to not adjust the band as it sharpens. imo even if the rock has worn a little it is best to just wait until you get the band back to the starting point. once i learned this and stay with it, my bands are not out of whack when i get to sharpen them.

i have noticed some bands in the past that were no way even close to uniform on the tooth layout.

kelLOGg

Thanks for the replies. It's good to see the different approaches and I guess I haven't been too far afield afterall.
Cook's MP-32, 20HP, 20' (modified w/ power feed, up/down, loader/turner)
DH kiln, CatClaw setter and sharpener, tandem trailer, log arch, tractor, thumb tacks

Bibbyman

A month or so back I was down at the Re-Sharp center in Mt. Vernon, Mo and visited with Joe and the guys there. 

They first run the blades across the sharpener.  Then the blades go through a wash/wire brush machine that cleans and deburrs them.   Also in this machine, the blade passes between some rollers that take a lot of the set out of the teeth and get them to some uniform but small set.  The setter,  much more sophisticate than ours,  then set the blade.  They can dial in exactly what set they want and the setter takes care of the rest.  It will tell them how many teeth are not set correctly (due to damage).  I think if there is more than three in a row, they reject it.  Once set, the blades sharpened one more light grind.

So,  in short,  they grind, clean/deburr/reduce set, then set again and grind again.  Makes for some pretty nice cutting blades but more work than I want to go to.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

backwoods sawyer

I do things a bit different since I find no two saws take the same adjustment. When I take a saw off the sharpener, I turn the knob that raises the grinder out of the gullet and stop the grinder at the top of the stroke. When I place the new saw in I give the push arm a turn or two, start the grinding wheel and hand lower it to insure that it dose not contact a tooth. Then I lower the wheel until it is close and then adjust the push arm so that it is close to the face. I do this with the water off so that I can see clearly, at this point I turn the water on and make finale adjustments by sound until it is taking a real light grind on all of the tooth. I use a felt marker and mark the saw. I allow the saw to go around once then adjust a bit more. I will let the saw go around as many times as it takes until the entire surface of all of the teeth are freshly ground. I use watchmaker's glasses to take a good look at the teeth, having good lighting helps. Then I hang the saw until it is dry then oil, fold, tie, and store the saws. 
Backwoods Custom Milling Inc.
100% portable. . Oregons largest portable sawmill service, serving all of Oregon, from our Backwoods to yours..sawing since 1991

kelLOGg

Reading everyone's techniques makes me want to know how long we spend cleaning, seting and sharpening per blade.  It takes me about a hour when I have to scrape the teeth.
Quote from: Bibbyman on May 28, 2010, 06:02:49 AM
A month or so back I was down at the Re-Sharp center in Mt. Vernon, Mo and visited with Joe and the guys there. 

They first run the blades across the sharpener.  Then the blades go through a wash/wire brush machine that cleans and deburrs them.   Also in this machine, the blade passes between some rollers that take a lot of the set out of the teeth and get them to some uniform but small set.  The setter,  much more sophisticate than ours,  then set the blade.  They can dial in exactly what set they want and the setter takes care of the rest.  It will tell them how many teeth are not set correctly (due to damage).  I think if there is more than three in a row, they reject it.  Once set, the blades sharpened one more light grind.

So,  in short,  they grind, clean/deburr/reduce set, then set again and grind again.  Makes for some pretty nice cutting blades but more work than I want to go to.
Bibbyman, how long does it take for these pros to do it?

Re-sharpening services charge aout $7 per blade.  That would be minimum wage at my pace.
Bob
Cook's MP-32, 20HP, 20' (modified w/ power feed, up/down, loader/turner)
DH kiln, CatClaw setter and sharpener, tandem trailer, log arch, tractor, thumb tacks

Bibbyman

Quote from: kelLOGg on May 29, 2010, 05:44:20 AM
Bibbyman, how long does it take for these pros to do it?

Re-sharpening services charge aout $7 per blade.  That would be minimum wage at my pace.
Bob


I don't know.  They have a room full of sharpeners and setters that are much faster and more automated than any we have.  One guy slings blades from one machine to the next and keeps real busy.  Manager Joe probably checks in blades and boxes blades for shipment so its enough to keep two men busy at this one location.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

Chuck White

It takes me about 1hr, 10min to do 4 blades.

I don't really get too concerned when the teeth vary 1 or 2 thousandths. 
I've don't have zigger marks on my lumber from 1 or 2 teeth being out-of-set!
~Chuck~  Cooks Cat Claw sharpener and single tooth setter.  2018 Chevy Silverado and 2021 Subaru Ascent.
With basic mechanical skills and the ability to read you can maintain a Woodmizer  LT40!

paul case

my sharpening setup is very low tech.just a manual sharpener and a wm single tooth setter. the setter i play with from time to  time  but i have not perfected it yet.but sharpen blades i can. my blades are 14' takes me  about 5 or 6 minutes to sharpen one and just 1 or 2 to set up for each blade. i sharpen 1 and used till dull then sharpen again and use it . i can usually do this routine 6 to 8times bafore the blade breaks. i know the set up doesnt do a perfect job but the sharpener only cost $500 , i have done this for 50 blades. retty much paid for itself .
50 blades
6 sharpenings each
300 sharpeningsx
$7 each to send them for sharpeningx
$2100 total
$500 sharpener investment-
$1600 savings
50 hours spent
$30 / hour

i only spent $1200 to buy those 50 blades. pc
life is too short to be too serious. (some idiot)
2013 LT40SHE25 and Riehl edger,  WM 94 LT40 hd E15. Cut my sawing ''teeth'' on an EZ Boardwalk
sawing oak.hickory,ERC,walnut and almost anything else that shows up.
Don't get phylosophical with me. you will loose me for sure.
pc

paul case

oh and btw,
edward(ez boardwalk) now sells that sharpener for $100 less than i gave for mine. i got to have a talk with him about that ???
pc
life is too short to be too serious. (some idiot)
2013 LT40SHE25 and Riehl edger,  WM 94 LT40 hd E15. Cut my sawing ''teeth'' on an EZ Boardwalk
sawing oak.hickory,ERC,walnut and almost anything else that shows up.
Don't get phylosophical with me. you will loose me for sure.
pc

kelLOGg

I just finished a job today where I sawed a little over 500 bfdt of SYP with 1 band. I've never done that before. I took 6 bands with me not knowing what to expect and never had to change it. No rising or falling in the cut when sawing a knot! I was extremely please and more importantly the customer was too. it may take me a long time clean/set/sharpen but I think I have finally got it right. 8). There was only one very knotty board at the very end that moved when I cut it, presumably due to stress, otherwise every board was sopt on. All in all it was a great day.
Bob
Cook's MP-32, 20HP, 20' (modified w/ power feed, up/down, loader/turner)
DH kiln, CatClaw setter and sharpener, tandem trailer, log arch, tractor, thumb tacks

sdunston

I sharpen and set my own blades just for the sake of being able to do it anytime I want. I was thinking the other day about other things that have changed in other trades that make repairing stuff not cost efective, EX- When I started in the automoble repair busness 30+ years ago most everyone turned there own brake drums and rotors, then the china drums and rotors hit the market and everyone just puts on new and junks the old.Do you think we will see the day when we buy blades from china for 3 bucks a blade :D I hope not, but it is posable ??? ???
Sam
WM LT28, American fordge 18x8 planer,Orange and white chainsaws, NH TC33, IHT6 dozer, IH-H tractor and alot of other stuff that keeps me agravated trying to keep running

paul case

i wuold hope we had learned a lesson about durable goods. i know from reading past posts here that many of us try to buy quality stuff because we have tried the other and it just doesnt measure up. you get what you pay for.
Example; you can but grind stones from H.F. for my sharpener for about 3 dollars, but they wear off so quickly that thay need redressed in the middle of a band. the ones that cost more(im not even sure these are made here ) will sharpen a blade serveral times before needing dressed. the more expensive ones actually cost less in the long run.  pc
life is too short to be too serious. (some idiot)
2013 LT40SHE25 and Riehl edger,  WM 94 LT40 hd E15. Cut my sawing ''teeth'' on an EZ Boardwalk
sawing oak.hickory,ERC,walnut and almost anything else that shows up.
Don't get phylosophical with me. you will loose me for sure.
pc

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