I have some 20-22" red oak logs that I want to try my hand at quarter-sawing. I've read a lot of the previous discussions on the topic and thought I would try the Bibbyman method. My question is since I'm not sawing the lumber for any particular purpose, what thickness would you guys recommend that I saw?
It really depends what you have in mind for your lumber.....maybe a project, etc.
I usually saw my 1/4 sawn oak 1 1/8 inch thick. I have found in my area, this size sells QUICK!
5/4 is popular with wood workers, I'd also saw some at 1" which will plane down to 13/16 . Steve
One inch is what my customers seem to want. I go a little thicker.....1/32- 1/16 thicker just to make sure there is a full inch when it's dried.
Just remember, quarter sawing is a lot more work and takes a lot more time than flat sawing.
Quarter sawn lumber shrinks more in thickness than flatsawn lumber, about twice as much. If you are cutting boards 10" or less, then 1 1/8" will dry down to at least one full inch and should plane down to 3/4" finished thickness. If you are cutting the really wide stuff, Scott Smith, scsmith42 here on the Forum who specializes in quarter sawn white oak, recommends cutting 5/4 so that it will plane out to 3/4" finished thickness in case there is some cup.
I would cut a range of thicknesses, from 1 1/8", to 1 3/8", 1 5/8", and 2 1/8" (1/8" over nominal) if you are planning to sell the wood because woodworkers will want some thicker stock for large tables, legs, etc. If you cut the thicker stock, be sure and cut it from the high quality wood in the log as low grade thick stock is hard to move. It is easier to work around defects like knots, splits, and checks in 4/4 stock.
My friend builds tables and likes 6/4 you dont need to saw all of it Qsawn 3"x3 or 4 riff sawn is prefured for legs and if they build chairs they use Flatsawn fer chair seats. Big thing is if you can dry it and put log back together stickered that makes the boards all mates and quite sought after
You can mate up the boards if you live saw it through and through, but if you cut it to maximize quarter sawn, then you cant I don't believe.
Thanks guys.
So if I take three to five 5/4 or 6/4 boards out of the center those will be Q.S. and the rest I can either flat saw or cut into 3" or 4" squares. Those Q.S. boards are going to be fairly wide. Should I sticker them whole or cut a few inches of the pith out?
I would favor leaving them as is. Taking the center cuts, turning 90° and again taking the center cuts is my favored was of getting the QS lumber. The four remaining cants will make rift sawn lumber or squares.
I am seldom asked for QS. The majority of my customers want the "cathedral" pattern of flat sawn lumber.
Quote from: Magicman on April 13, 2012, 09:20:53 AM
I am seldom asked for QS. The majority of my customers want the "cathedral" pattern of flat sawn lumber.
MM, are you referring to oak or lumber in general?
Quote from: Ga_Mtn_Man on April 13, 2012, 09:06:04 AM
Thanks guys.
So if I take three to five 5/4 or 6/4 boards out of the center those will be Q.S. and the rest I can either flat saw or cut into 3" or 4" squares. Those Q.S. boards are going to be fairly wide. Should I sticker them whole or cut a few inches of the pith out?
I would suggest taking the pith out - it's going to split anyway and you will have less distortion/movement as it dries. Keep in mind that the first 5 - 15 years of growth rings are "juvenile wood", and if you leave it in your QS boards they will cup.
Expect to have at least 1/8" of shrinkage per inch on QS oak (as opposed to 1/16" for FS). If I want to make a 5/4 QS board that I'm 75% sure will S2S at 1" post drying, I mill it at 1-3/8"
For a band mill, typically the most efficient way to produce QS is to quarter the log, and then mill each quarter by alternating faces. You will yield around 40% QS, and 40% RS this way, with around 20% as high figure.
If you want a higher percentage of high figure wood (but more waste), then cut the quarters in half again (so that your original log is cut into 8 pie shaped wedges) and alternate faces. You'll net about 30% less lumber, but more of it will be the high dollar high figure boards.
Thanks S.C. and Happy Birthday! I'm catchin' up with you real quick.
GMM, in general, but the majority of the hardwood that I saw is Red Oak.
In your Reply #8, the center of those boards will not be QS anyway. The outer part will exhibit the QS characteristics. The inner part will be flat sawn.
You have to look at where your market is. I do not buy logs or sell lumber. Simply put, I saw um and leave um.
I rarely get request for quarter sawn red oak. As to white oak, the market for quarter sawn here is small, but there are some people looking for it. You can sell it for twice the price of the red oak.
Hi Guys,
in the discussions about qtr vs rift that I've found using the forum search tool, (and Google) I am more confused than ever. In Qtr sawn is it the goal to get the growth rings as close to 90 degrees as possible in the board?
If so then the method of sawing I've seen drawn as "rift" sawing would yield this more than the drawings I've seen showing various methods of qtr sawing? I've also seen references by very well known and educated persons who teach these subjects that refer to qtr sawn as having growth rings between 90 and 75 degrees, and rift sawn as 75 to 45 degrees which is at odds to the product of the sawmills designed specifically to "rift" saw (having a radially indexible clamp/dog system).
OK, now that I'm totally confused does anyone have a definitive reference I might peruse? The answer won't change how I value a board sawn to have as close to 90 degree growth rings as possible for its stability but I don't want to advertise one product and possibly misrepresent it, i.e. craftsmen asking specifically for qtr sawn for their projects. Thanks for the continuing education, it doesn't take much to confuse me.
Joe
Josef : Lets say you are cutting a 1 x 8....you would want the growth rings to run through the board top to bottom... not from the edge...Some of these folks are good at drawing pic...not me...sorry...Banjo
Thanks Banjo, thats what I've always assumed for qtr sawn boards, but from the description of rift sawn (pie shaped sawing wedges between each board) it seems that method would yield more of those boards with vertical grain than the description of qtr sawing by either flipping the guarter each cut or holding the quarter cant at a 45 degree angle and sawing thru from top to bottom.
I've never actually watched anyone saw using the rift sawn diagram, seems it would be a real bugger to accomplish, but every board would have 90 degree growth rings to the board. What would you do with all those wedges, lap siding?
Joe
This is indeed the problem with 'radial" sawing. You end up with wedge shaped boards, and LOT more waste, because in the end people want flat boards. It might be used for valuable appearance sawn wood, that's worth big $$ for perfect pieces. Musical instrument blanks for example. If the perfect blank is worth 10X what randomly sawn boards are, it doesn't matter if you only recover 50% of the wood, you have still made 5X the amount.
Boards may be quarter sawn for 2 main reasons. Appearance and Stability.
If it's for appearance then it usually has to be almost exactly 90deg to the growth , so it shows the ray flecks in wood like White Oak and Sycamore. If you are just wanting the more stable boards then 90-75deg is acceptable. Rift is around 45deg, and has the feature that the grain on all sides is similar. Good for table legs etc. Flat sawn is close to parallel to the rings, as close you can get while cutting rectangle boards from a round log anyway.
All the "quarter sawing" patterns you will see for various mills are approximate methods. You need to balance the time taken and wastage against the extra value of the boards. You try and get the best (widest) boards with the grain at exactly 90deg, as these are ones you can sell at a premium. Then it drifts off towards the rift sawn and the boards get smaller as you go. You do get slightly more waste, and it does take a bit longer on a bandmill (more turning and reloading of pieces of logs) But if you can earn more for the boards it may be worth it.
With a swing blade mill you are also cutting an approximate pattern. Some boards will be perfect, some will technically be qsawn, but not exactly 90deg, and some will be rift. But it takes no more time, and you don't get any more waste, than any other method.
Ian
Here is how it was explained to me 1x6 laying flat if rings were less than 45 deg to vert Q sawn over 45 riff sawn flat be flat
Got it, and this is what I've always been shown, then I started gathering information to put together a website and the diagrams I've found on many other websites (flooring companies, wikipedia, timber companies, etc, example http://westcoastlands.net/SawmillCuttingMethods.html ) when comparing flat vs qtr vs rift sawn indicating the radial sawn diagram as "rift sawn" is what confused me. Thanks for the confirmation that my original thoughts were correct. I'll keep on using the method of qtr sawing referenced by WM, rotate the qtr cant between cuts, easy, efficient, productive.
Joe
Personally, if the ray fleck is not clearly visible, I do not consider it quarter sawn by my own definition, even if the angle of the growth rings meets the standard for quarter sawn lumber. Stability is there, but the appearance needs to be, too.
i found this fellas website to be very helpful in terms of q sawing methods:
http://vote.greens.org/tn/sb/sawingmethods.html
The "riftsawn" method shown on that website link is inaccurate. Apparentely around 100 years ago someone made a mistake in a publication, and the misinformation lives on.
NHLA rules on quartered lumber are as follows:
"In species where figure is not required, pieces shall be considered
quartered when 80% of the surface of the required cuttings in
the aggregate shows the radial grain at an angle of 45˚ or less
with one face."
There are no NHLA specs for rift sawn lumber that I have found. According to Purdue University, rift sawn has growth rings at 45 degrees relative to the face.
Specs that I have used (forget where I found them, I think maybe USDA) are that RS has growth rings between 30 - 60 degrees relative to the face. I further designate QS as either "high figure" or "low/medium figure" based upon the amount of ray flect..
Scott
Quote from: Josef on April 14, 2012, 11:33:46 PM
Got it, and this is what I've always been shown, then I started gathering information to put together a website and the diagrams I've found on many other websites (flooring companies, wikipedia, timber companies, etc, example http://westcoastlands.net/SawmillCuttingMethods.html ) when comparing flat vs qtr vs rift sawn indicating the radial sawn diagram as "rift sawn" is what confused me. Thanks for the confirmation that my original thoughts were correct. I'll keep on using the method of qtr sawing referenced by WM, rotate the qtr cant between cuts, easy, efficient, productive.
Joe
Thanks guys,
I just realized I stole someone elses thread with my questions and I apologize for that.
I know I probably shouldn't be so anal about details but it's great to know I can ask my dumb questions here and get very explanative, easy to understand answers, and I'm sure there will be many more, like I said, I get confused easy.
I've been using a friends LT28 for my projects while I try to finish my own build and sawed my first Sycamore recently, love the looks of it qtr sawn.
thanks again,
Joe
Joe, I personally did not see your questions off topic at all. Any time that a question is asked, everyone seems to dig a little deeper. We all learn. smiley_thumbsup
I love the look of quarter sawn sycamore, too. It is the flat sawn stuff that drives me crazy with all the drying warp and twist :).
Quote from: WDH on April 15, 2012, 09:27:32 PM
It is the flat sawn stuff that drives me crazy with all the drying warp and twist :).
That's must be Sycamore Gum you're talking about. :)
I too appreciate the additional exploration of the topic. :)