How would Larch hold up as a floor? I'm thinking of doing some T&G flooring, Pine is to soft for my application but I need something that will last under damp conditions.
I'm not sure how close it is in grain and hardness but my neighbor used siberian larch for flooring in his house, he claims its 50% harder then pine? It looks nice, he ordered online I think.
Larch is very hard. However, in my experience with using it as t& g paneling, is that it can twist and warp significantly. I love the beautiful grain and colors of it though ;)
Quote from: rooster 58 on February 23, 2015, 09:19:50 PM
Larch is very hard. However, in my experience with using it as t& g paneling, is that it can twist and warp significantly. I love the beautiful grain and colors of it though ;)
I could do 4"X4' pieces and nail the hell out of it. That should keep it under control shouldn't it?
Quote from: Evergreen Man on February 23, 2015, 09:52:24 PM
Quote from: rooster 58 on February 23, 2015, 09:19:50 PM
Larch is very hard. However, in my experience with using it as t& g paneling, is that it can twist and warp significantly. I love the beautiful grain and colors of it though ;)
I could do 4"X4' pieces and nail the hell out of it. That should keep it under control shouldn't it?
No. :D When Larch wants to twist, it twists. I think you need to give a better description of what you are trying to accomplish, and what is causing the dampness. Larch can make really nice flooring, I would imagine you will lose a fair amount to twisting during drying, but whatever dries straight should stay that way.
Also, larch is hard enough to be brittle; so over nailing could actually do more harm than good ;)
I'm putting flooring in our rental cottages, they sit unused and frozen thru the winter. And in the summer they get abused by the guests some of the cabins are buried in the trees and can be damp then there's water from doors and windows left open to the rain or wet swim suites left on the floor, wet dogs and any number of other sources.
The Boss is thinking he wants to do engineered hardwood because the click flooring we've been using hasn't held up to the water, he thinks the engineered will stand up to the water better than the solid wood.
I would use real wood.
I have seen larch used for porch flooring looked good .
Jim/Bruno
Quotehe wants to do engineered hardwood because the click flooring we've been using hasn't held up to the water
Help me out here, how is "engineered hardwood" flooring different from "click" flooring ? Two different products I assume, but would be interested in how they differ.
larch, used as flooring for decks and unheated buildings will last forever, I cut it, profile it, and fix it green, and have never had a problem, it is a very under rated wood, more a hardwood than softwood, cut it, dry it then mill it to your finished sizes and put your floor down, your problems will be over
Hello mobile sawmill services, and Welcome to the Forestry Forum.
How about adding your location, etc. to your profile and also telling us a bit about your sawing services. :)
I don't have a ton of experience with Larch but the stuff we have dealt with has always been pretty okay. Hard, twisty, and good looking. It kind of reminds me of Southern Yellow pine. I custom sawed and planed some for a guy to make a log cabin out of. He held onto the logs for a maybe a little too long before we got them but in the end it wasn't a bad looking house and we ended up selling a few to people who had stopped in after seeing it go up. I sold them dry EWP but it was that larch house that got them here. I've custom sawed, dried, and planed some 2" material for T&G Flooring that turned out really well. Every once in a while you would just get one so twisted out of shape you couldn't use it. Otherwise, great stuff in my limited opinion.
Quote from: beenthere on February 24, 2015, 12:23:33 PM
Quotehe wants to do engineered hardwood because the click flooring we've been using hasn't held up to the water
Help me out here, how is "engineered hardwood" flooring different from "click" flooring ? Two different products I assume, but would be interested in how they differ.
I said "Click flooring" but I should of said Laminate flooring, it's basically pressed cardboard with a picture of wood printed on the surface. Engineered flooring is glorified plywood with a finish.
Thanks for the great info guys! ;D
I'm going to seriously try and talk him into trying some Larch. 8)
The only other wrinkle is if I'm getting the right Larch
I know it is sometimes called Tammarack. And sometimes Tammarack is called Larch. Is Tammarack Larch? or are they two different species and how am I going to know if the Larch he is trying to sell me is actually Larch? :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Same thing.
If you want some real fun use black locust. That will outlast the nails. ;D
He's not kidding...they really will outlast nails. ;)
Tamarack is Eastern Larch, one of several larch species.
OK thanks Bender! ;D
Unfortunatly no Black Locust grows around here :'(
There may also be differences in larch species. I know European and western larches are used in flooring. I find eastern larch around here grows in a spiral. You can see it in the trees, looks like a tightly wound rope over twisted. ;D
Quote from: SwampDonkey on February 25, 2015, 09:24:02 AM
There may also be differences in larch species. I know European and western larches are used in flooring. I find eastern larch around here grows in a spiral. You can see it in the trees, looks like a tightly wound rope over twisted. ;D
That makes me a little worried, I did some research and benders right, it's eastern Larch. I'll just have to go get a few logs and see how they look.
"Eastern Larch is called Tamarack", and we call Western Larch: Tamarack. Nickname is the same, so what is the difference between eastern and western? Not a test :P, just curious as I don't have experience with it. Out here western larch grows tall and straight, used in a variety of applications, including roofing shingles in the old days. Can't remember how much spiraling there is, I'll have to look during the next elk hunt.
Lots of larch around here, but very few use it for anything. I couldn't show anyone anything built from it even. In the land of maple and yellow birch, I can show you lots of stuff made from those....flooring, cupboards, furniture, looms.......... ;D I once visited a lot where there was a portable mill and across from it a stand of larch. I asked why not use the larch for a mill shed? I didn't convince the mill owner. ;)
The Eastern Larch is a fair bit smaller than the western. Other than that I don't know. The few "tamarack" we have on our property seem to be straight but we've never thought to put them thru the Sawmill before. We always assumed they were junk. ;D
I know some who have, and they stayed in the same stack outside ever since. ;D
I've sawn a bit of our local eastern larch- like SD said, it can have a tendency to grow with a spiral grain. That stuff tends to twist badly, I had some I couldn't saw a 2x4 out of- it moved so much on the mill I couldn't get a true dimension in any direction :) However, I've also sawn some that didn't have spiral apparent, and it sawed out very nicely. I think the customer had me saw 1 1/2"x10" out of it for trailer decking, it was nice lumber. One other problem with tamarack- it tends to crack a lot when drying, it would probably be good to sticker it in a shady spot and try to slow the drying a bit.
We've used Tamarack for framing material and put it up "right off the mill".
Haven't had any problems with it!
I redecked my 6x12 flatbead trailer with Tamarack in 2006, or 2007 and it has stayed well through the Summer through Spring.
As soon as the weather turned warm and the boards dried out from the Winter's snow and the Spring rains, I painted the boards down with used motor oil, and in 2011 I painted them with another coating, and they're still doing good!
I was going to use White Pine as Board and batten and stain it, to side our cottages with. But I can buy the Larch for the same price, if this stuff looks like it will behave ok I might switch to Larch, I put my siding on with 2" deck screws, has to be a really stubborn board for me to not be able to push it into place.
But maybe the Larch would just crack on me?
I built a big barn back in Maine out of Tamarack, some called it Larch - the needles fall off in the winter - Anyway the second floor hay mow was decked with 2" T+G Tamarack, that stuff was excellent. Yes one or two pieces had some slivers that peeled up - sort of a shake flaking effect I would say, but better selection of those pieces would have fixed that problem. I was very, very, happy with the wear and appearance of that floor and ceiling. We put it down green - and it was heavy, but nailed with a framing nailer through the tongue with no issues.
Eastern larch grows across the country here except the west coast, but it is in the upper Fraser valley. So there is no scarcity of it. However when you look at the texts between tamarack an western larch, the tamarack is mentioned for poles, ties, posts, pallets, pulp and crates. Western larch is more prized, and the first thing mentioned is timbers, planks and boards, rough sawn lumber, glue laminated beams, flooring, interior finish, veneer on and on. An entirely different outlook. ;D
I love to see a larch grove in the fall. The needles turn a beautiful golden yellow, not unlike quaking aspen. And the limbs up sweep somewhat cathedral style. Yup, larch is beautiful on the stump and on the wall or floor ;)
i have sawn some larch for barn floors and for skids for sheds and small cabins. One guy used 2x4 T&G larch for the cabin floor with screw rails attached to the skids and then screws from bottom up. Larch Skids on 16 inch centres on a 12X20 cabin.
Then 8x8 squared pine logs with a 3/4 x 3" ply wood tounge glued into a 3/4 dado in top and bottom of each log with dovetail corners. 4"X8" rafters on 48" centres with 2X4 purlins and a green steal roof. Walls are 10 foot which made a nice sleeping loft on the back half. Front porch is all larch including the support poles but they are the round pole with bark pealed is all. Stiles and rails are larch as well. I need to get out and take some pics of it when he's is done.
I did the milling for him in September and all the lumber was dry stacked on a couple of rigmats inside of a white canvas covered arch type temp shelter. 2 x6' fans running at low rpm 24/7one intake one exhaust.
He had a half dozen very nice birch logs that I cut into 4/4 X 6" X 8' that will be his cabinets and a 1x 26" X 10' birch log that was cut into large 2" and 3" slabs for the fire place mantle and kitchen table.
That sounds pretty Bandit!
I made a visit to a local sawyer in the area, he had a Mbf of dry Larch beautiful looking wood, straight and flat. He gave me a couple boards so that I can play with them and see how I like it.
The key to durable flooring is to use edge grain lumber. The summerwood (narrow part of the growth rings) is harder than the springwood. With edge grain the harder material is evenly distributed. With flat sawn you will get large patches of the softer material and these will wear much more quickly.
I've only used Western Larch. It's deciduous (i.e., loses it's needles in the winter), it doesn't tolerate shade (so the branches die when it's in perpetual shade), and self-pruning (meaning the dead branches break off in the winter. This means that trees that weren't growing in the open will lose their lower branches at an early age. That gives you a lot of clear wood on the lower trunks of the taller trees -- excellent for making edge-grain flooring.
The Western stuff can have big pitch pockets -- if you hit one of these without the blade lube turned up full, the blade will dive almost instantly.
In some stands, Larch is prone to shake. I can easily spot shake in Douglas-Fir once it's been cut. I've had no luck at all spotting it in Larch. It's not uncommon to saw some really nice looking wood, only to have it separate along the rings when it's dry.
I don't know how the Eastern Larch compares but these are the kinds of things to watch for.
Thanks for the info Brucer! ;D
Yes, I've read that it's edge grain you want and watch out for the ring separation. This was Western larch. I think your in for some work myself with tamarack flooring. Don't let that deter you. Everyone likes to try something. ;D
Here's a fellow in NS.
http://www.larchwoodcanada.com/larch_flooring
Have a look at his cutting boards.
My Father has some hackmatack,I guess it woold be what you are talking about,the needles turn yellow and fall off,milled for the floor for the garage. We always kept hay up there. It was only nailed enough to keep it in place. After 30 years of sliding hay across it,the floor was smooth. Due to him building it in a wet hole and not having a good foundation it started to lean,alot. We tore it down and I used the lumber for a outdoor addition at my other house. The larch was used for the floor. There was no trouble with the floor. The boards was all straight. Maybe he got lucky. :)
I think larch would be an excellent choice for flooring, I would just keep the widths fairly narrow, 4-6" wide. Definitely not go to engineered wood flooring. Engineered wood flooring is laminated similar to plywood construction with a thicker top veneer. It is more stable than solid wood in most cases such as over radiant flooring but is not a good choice for a wetter location in my experience. I think the amount of moisture you're talking about you will see some cupping and eventual delamination issues. I haven't milled larch(tamarack) myself but have seen it used and think you will be fine with it for flooring.
http://www.larchwoodcanada.com/larch_flooring
Have a look at his cutting boards.
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Looks like they do thier narrower floor boards Flat sawn and the wider one's edge grain. But I'll do it like you said and aim for edge grain. ;D Those are some cool looking cutting boards. Did you see the prices?! :o
@thecfarm (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=436) and @johnnyllama (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=26115) Thanks Guys! I'm feeling very confident now. :)...oops... shouldn't of said that, now I'm sure to fail. ::)
I used larch for my barn floor after I moved it two years ago. Its just two by stuff. I'll go take a picture when I go out. Its still -22 so I aint in any real hurry to go out yet. :D
Eastern Larch is finicky from tree to tree. Look for the ones that are not spiral. If you get bigger straight trees the wood is less likely to twist, but when it twists, it does it better than Chubby Checker. I have seen finished eastern larch flooring in the U.P. and it is absolutely gorgeous.
I still have a stack of two by 6 and some two by four that burlkraft and I sawed out a few years ago after our's was wiped out by the eastern larch beetle. I pull some boards out of there every now and then and they have remained straight, and it is a wonder seeing as how they are stacked out in the weather and poorly snickered. I also made some raised gardens with some several years ago. 2 by 10's nailed in a square and filled with dirt. They look as good as the day I screwed them together, other than oxidized.
Quote from: Jeff on February 27, 2015, 10:15:26 AM
I'll go take a picture when I go out. Its still -22 so I aint in any real hurry to go out yet. :D
I don't blame you for not wanting to go outside, I'm picking on whatever inside job I can.
Just finishing up this little renovation
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38552/IMG_2245.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38552/IMG_2241.JPG)
Good Lookin stuff right there Evergreen Man. :)
Okay, not much of a picture, but it has made an adequate floor.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/20150227_102555.jpg)
Quote from: Jeff on February 27, 2015, 09:45:34 PM
Okay, not much of a picture, but it has made an adequate floor.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/20150227_102555.jpg)
It looks good. I don't see much wear and tear
Thanks Stump!
Another reason for using edge grain for flooring is that it's more stable with changes in humidity. Flat sawn Western and Eastern Larch both expand twice as much across the width as the humidity increases.
Quote from: SwampDonkey on February 27, 2015, 05:15:04 AM
Here's a fellow in NS.
Have a look at his cutting boards.
I recognize those! A couple of years ago the owner of the local kitchen shop called me up and said I'd be interested in the cutting boards she just got in. I went and had a look, and that's exactly what they had. They look even nicer "in person". I figured out how to manufacture them, and worked out how much I could earn if I charged the same prices. Not bad at all -- except for one little old thing. I figured I'd saturate the market pretty quick in this region and the volume wouldn't be there to make it pay.
I must have been right. Dawn sold most of her supply pretty quickly but sales started to drop off toward the end.