A timbering question about different property

[RAW]

I've got 25 acres in north Georgia that I'm trying to sell.
Unfortunately, the access road is a bit rough.  I've been avoiding dealing with it because I've got a 4x4 capable of getting in and out.
But now that it's on the market, I need to improve it. 

I was hoping to do some selective cutting on the property to hopefully pay for the road improvements and open the property up for the less imaginitive buyers.  Had a forester come out, and he said that I had a lot of valuable timber.  But then I had a local timber company come out.  And they said that because of the seasonal creek that runs alongside the road that they wouldn't be interested in getting the timber.

My question (finally  ;D): Should I bother contacting other timber companies?  Or would I just be wasting my time?

Thanks,
Reuben

[beenthere]

Is the seasonal creek an environmental thing, that causes the logger a headache? Or just another thing to deal with when the creek doth rise?

Seems a logger with equipment could be talked into a contract that included fixing the road (drive) at the same time as getting some logs. But I'd pass that by the forester who looked at it first, and get some consulting advice from him/her.
Certainly the forester would be able to answer the 'logger' contact question and judge the involvement of the creek.

In Wisconsin, even a dry gulley in the woods that last year had melted snow in one spot, was declared a navigable stream and forced the landowner to clear all wood from logging that had dropped over the 'gulley' (now a navigable stream). It is fed by a small culvert under the highway and gets 'some' runoff. Used to be it only qualified as 'navigable' if a canoe could be floated most of the time during a year. Now, it is a kayak, but the DNR doesn't know if its a two-man or a single kayak.  ;D nor how it is determined if it is floating.  ;D : >:(

[Ron Wenrich]

Things are probably different in differenet areas.  How big of "stream" are we talking about?  We routinely put in pipe or a portable bridge.  We also cut roads into areas that need it, but take that off the sale price.

The consultant should be up to snuff on this stuff.  Also, talk to more than one consultant. 

Consultants and mills have two different things in mind.  Consultants build your timber up to get you to sell through them, mills build it down to lower the price. 

A marked sale is the best way to go.  Otherwise, your thinning can quickly develop into a high grading.

[RAW]

The stream is really just a barely moist ditch.  When it rains, it'll get some running water, but . . . other than that, it's just a ditch.

What do you mean by a "marked sale?"  That's a term with which I am unfamiliar.

Thanks

[Ron Wenrich]

A marked sale is where the trees that are to be harvested are marked with tree paint ahead of the sale.  They are usually tallyed, so a good volume estimate can be given.  If a consultant marks it, then the landowner gets the tally.  If a procurement forester marks it, then the landowner probably wouldn't get the tally.

After the tally, the timber is let out on bids.  Everyone knows what is to be cut.  None of that cutting the "mature" trees or 14" and up stuff. 

Timber is paid for in advance.  No need to count truckloads or any of that other stuff.  Consultants can handle the sale, especially if you are an absentee landowner. 

[Ron Scott]

Something doesn't sound right. ??? The forester says that you have valuable timber, but the logger says that they don't want it because of the seasonal creek running along side of the road.

Work with the forester in developing a harvest plan within the ecosystem that can be bid on by  loggers interested in your timber. It sounds like you may have contacted a disinterested one or one that wants only "easy logging" without any advance planning.

Water courses are often part of a potential timber harvest area, but some advance environmental planning and harvest plan is needed.

We were in a potential harvest area today of meandering streams and wetlands which took all day to plan out. We now have it figured out and can start marking tomorrow for a selective harvest without much problem, but a little farther forwarding and some cable skidding will be required.

[Phorester]

This is not meant as criticism of you, just an observation from a professional forester whose job it is to give advice to forestland owners like yourself.....  You're asking a lot of questions that can and should have been answered by that local forester.

My question is, who is this forester you talked to?  Is he a person with at least a 4-year college degree?  Second, who is he working for?  A timber company? The State?  A consulting firm?

You need to be talking to a professional forester (one with a degree in forest management or a closely related degree), and one who is working for YOU, such as a State or Consulting forester.  If his main job is to buy timber, he cannot give you objective advice on selling yours.  He is not working for you.  His loyalty has to be to his employer.  As one timber buyer put it to me in talking about how landowners ask him for timber sale advice;  "I can't both buy and sell their timber". 

A point about selling land that has been recently logged:  I don't recommend that a landowner log a property within 5 years of when he wants to sell it.  The reason is that a recently logged property looks terrible to prospective buyers.  It's the nature of a logging operation.  You can't cut down those great big plants that are dozens of feet tall, have great big tops, and weigh several tons apiece, without causing some unaviodable damage to the remainder of the trees. It's like trying to sell a brand new house before it's finished.  The lawn  looks terrible until everything has been cleaned up, the grass seeded, and a little time has passed to soften the disturbance.

Giving logged property a few years to visually recover from a logging operation will make it more desirable to potential buyers and give you a better selling price.

And........ talk to a professional forester who is working for you.  As Ron suggests, talking to more than one would be of benefit.

[rebocardo]

imo,

Anyone looking to buy 25 forested acres is probably NOT interested in having it cut and would rather have it uncut. I know I would. Many potential buyers probaby have a 4x4 already.  I bought 30 acres and I was happy only 5 acres were fields and the other 25 had not been cut in 20-30 years. People  want to put their dream where they want it.

Plus, we are talking GA and $10 an hour day labor. Anyone who wants to get a lot cleared can get it done cheaply and fast. I would just let the property be and not make it look like you grabbed all the good timber before you sold it.

Plus, if you get a headache like someone leaving slash all over the place, starting a fire, or worse dumping 50-100 gallons of diesel on the property by accident rom heavy equipment, you will certainly decrease the value.

If you can sell the wood and get an extra $50,000 and need the money, then go for it. Otherwise, I would have a pro cruise the property, get a pulp (mine was done in cords) estimate, veneer (mine had none) estimate, how much it will probably have in ten-twenty years. Then you can say, it is a great investment just for the wood even if you never cut one down.

In the FWIW category, I think the guy just politely blew you off because there was not enough good trees to make it worth doing. 25 acres is not a lot of trees in this state even if you took every standing stick.

I do know you have to apply for a water permit in Dekalb for certain logging stuff or when doing anything near the Atlanta (Chatahoochie River (sp?)) water supply. So, he maybe had a valid concern too.

[RAW]

It probably would be best to leave it alone.
I definitely need to get the road "prettied up" though.

Here are some pics:

[Ron Wenrich]

You should still have the inventory and the appraisal.  I know people who have sold their land and timber for less than the timber was worth.  With a timber appraisal, you can always tell a perspective buyer how much the timber is worth.  It isn't done enough.

The tract appears to have merchantible timber.  It may even need a thinnng.  No way of telling how much its worth, just from pictures.

[Ron Scott]

Ditto! Have the timber inventoried and appraised so you know its current value. Land value + timber value+value of any buildings, facilities, etc. on the property = total market value. :P

[SwampDonkey]

I agree with R W and R S. I looked after harvesting of one lot over the winter months Feb-March in 2 consecutive years. Had to, because it would be too greasy and wet in summer because of that infamous 'Tobique red clay'. I did a plan and I marked trees, trails and road. It was even-aged and thick hardwood mostly, just needed spacing. Wasn't big hardwood, but lots of stems. There was a 2 ha area with nice softwood in it, but I made it taboo to go into it. The ground wouldn't freeze in there and I don't think they wanted to loose a skidder to the dinosaur graveyard.  :D Anyway, the owner doubled his return on investment from stumpage and he didn't end up with a slobber-logged woodlot. ;) He is an absantee landowner from Gardner, Maine.

[SwampDonkey]

I've got 25 acres in north Georgia that I'm trying to sell.
Unfortunately, the access road is a bit rough.  I've been avoiding dealing with it because I've got a 4x4 capable of getting in and out.
But now that it's on the market, I need to improve it. 

Why in the world would you bother with some old road that someone else is going to take the benefit from? Let them do the work. The wood is there for them, let them cut some to improve the road. Anyone with interest in buying that woodlot will walk it for themselves. I know if I was buying land i'de be all over it just like Weekend_Sawyer in his land purchase. ;)

[RAW]

Actually, my realtor just sent me an offer. 

What's really amusing about it is that I met the potential buyer through a motorcycle forum I frequent.  I sent him to my realtor to check out the property.

The offer is a tad low.  He's offering exactly what the tax value is on the property.  So if you include the realtor's fee . . . . it's not quite enough.

[SwampDonkey]

Yeah, tax assessment isn't even close. My woodlot is assessed at $27. If I could buy woodland at the tax value I'de be a timber baron. :D