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Making hardwood flooring

Started by Okrafarmer, September 24, 2012, 12:37:23 AM

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Okrafarmer

There may be useful topics already started about this, but I did a search in here already, maybe I didn't do it very well. Anyway, I have some questions about the process of making useable, decent tongue-and-groove flooring.

1. What do you do when you are milling the log, if you are thinking about making flooring out of all, or some, of the pieces you are making? Is flooring usually a by-product of grade lumber?

2. What thickness(es) are standard flooring used in the US? Does it matter, if you are making some for a customer, and you are milling all that they will use for a project? What is the finished planed thickness, the recommended rough dried thickness, and therefor, the recommended green thickness? And I realize this may vary some by species.

3. What about widths? How do you figure out how to make the pieces the right width?

4. How do you make them nice and straight? Or if they are not nice and straight, is that why people cut some of the pieces so short? Going back to # 3, see above, do you cut them wide enough to allow for a little shave-off on a jointer, etc. to make them straight if they are curved ever so slightly?

5. What happens if your grain is not exactly straight?

6. I guess you have to have zero knots?

7. Anybody can set up a router table to make a few tongue and groove boards. But what is the minimum reliable equipment needed to do thousands of square feet of flooring over time, without going broke buying expensive equipment?

8. What is the approximate mathematical difference between board feet and square feet of flooring? Obviously, you lose some of your board feet when you make the tongues.

Any other helpful info would be appreciated. One of my customers had paid around $6-7 a square foot for walnut flooring a few months ago (just the material, not the installation) and so it has gotten me thinking. This is a product I would like to be able to supply at some point in the future. Seems like a good way to redeem narrow and sometimes short lumber that can't be used for anything else, as well as maybe chasing it on purpose for the longer flooring pieces.  ???
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

Kansas

Years ago we bought a molding machine and started making tongue and groove flooring. My theory was that we could take lower quality lumber, make it, cut around the knots, and use that lumber. It worked, in theory. But there was so much labor involved, it just never paid out. I wound up selling the machine. We chose to go a bit different route. Doing the lap siding type flooring that can be done on the table saw. We never actually did that, but we would prep it for a guy that could do it. There is far less waste with a random width wider flooring. Its not perfect. But, it looks wonderful, and you can celebrate the knots, not try to hide them. It may not be for everyone. I even have a couple of walnut boards that we cut through walnuts in the crotch areas. Nice conversation pieces. I think maybe going that route might make more sense. You can do different species, spike the floor with them, border with one and fill in with another, anything you want to do. And it can all be done with a table saw and jointer. We plane the lumber, put a straight edge on the woodmizer, then take it to the craftsman. He runs it over the jointer, trues up the edges with the table saw, divides out the piles of lumber in half inch increments. Then he puts the cut edge on it. Very little waste. And you can do it with a minimum of equipment.

I don't know if I still have it, but Sawmill and Woodlot magazine had an article about doing this years ago. Great article. You can get back issues from them. It would be well worth it to get that magazine that had that. The thing is, it sets you apart from the standard tongue and groove narrow board flooring. Set up a few displays so people can see. And it works for wall and ceiling covering as well.

I do have some pics of it on my  facebook page, if you have that, or know someone that does. I use it as a selling tool.

logboy

I like Lucas Mills and big wood.  www.logboy.com

schakey

Think-Dream-Plan-Do

kelLOGg

Quote from: Okrafarmer on September 24, 2012, 12:37:23 AM
2. What thickness(es) are standard flooring used in the US? Does it matter, if you are making some for a customer, and you are milling all that they will use for a project? What is the finished planed thickness, the recommended rough dried thickness, and therefor, the recommended green thickness? And I realize this may vary some by species.

I floored my upstairs w/ oak and hickory. I cut, dried and planed (to 3/4") the hickory first and called a wood shop about T&G. They said their T&G process required planing so I ended up w/ 9/16" flooring. For the oak, I skipped the planing letting them do it, and ended up with 3/4" flooring. When installing, I put hardboard under the hickory and it came out level with the oak. All looks very nice.  So, to some extent thickness doesn't matter.

Bob
Cook's MP-32, 20HP, 20' (modified w/ power feed, up/down, loader/turner)
DH kiln, CatClaw setter and sharpener, tandem trailer, log arch, tractor, thumb tacks

kelLOGg

Quote from: Kansas on September 24, 2012, 01:48:52 AM
Doing the lap siding type flooring that can be done on the table saw. We never actually did that, but we would prep it for a guy that could do it. 

How do you nail lapped flooring so the heads don't show? or do you glue it? This is a timely thread for me beacuse I am very soon flooring a friend's art studio and am looking into T&G again. The WO flooring will be installed over particle board AdvanTech flooring which has been trampled over during construction. Any problems using glue on this?
Bob
Cook's MP-32, 20HP, 20' (modified w/ power feed, up/down, loader/turner)
DH kiln, CatClaw setter and sharpener, tandem trailer, log arch, tractor, thumb tacks

WDH

For the small sawyer making flooring, I suspect a critical issue is sterilization from an insect standpoint.  I had a guy from FL that wanted 1000 BF of air dried red oak that he was going to use for a floor in Orlando.  I had the wood, but the more that I thought about it, I chose not to sell it to him because I could not guarantee that it did not have any insect eggs/larvae (powderpost beetle), and I could not accept the risk if holes and sawdust showed up on his floor 6 months later.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Ron Wenrich

Most of the oak goes into strip flooring.  Think bowling alley.  They are using 1½" strips by random length.  They are taking low grade boards to make the strips.  They defect out the knots, and the wild grain.  A lot has to do with the how the floor lays when weather conditions change.  It may look great in the winter when humidity levels are low, but it may move in bad ways when it gets high.  Installation would probably be the key.  The more defect in the boards, the more rigid the installation.  But, I'm not an installer.

I've seen some specs where the board width was 3", 5", 7", or 2", 4", 6".  There used to be a 4",6",8", but that seems to have gone by the wayside.  These all use a random length system.  I do know that when they make cabinet panels, they don't use boards wider than 4" due to stability issues. 

The commercial mills use a straight line rip saw to get straight boards.  The quality of the floor would be dependent on the quality of material going in. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Kansas

I had trouble getting the old magazines pulled up. I will look around the old mill site and see If I can find it today. I didn't think it was that old, but time gets away from me. As far as how they secured it, they glued it in some cases, hid nails in the cut sections in some cases, and nailed with finish nails on some of the wider boards. Think they even stapled some in the hallway, where I used some cottonwood. The only real problem I had was the walnut, and that was my fault. We had sorted off all the walnut we figured would never sell, due to white wood, knots, etc. That is what I used in the great room. Problem is, it was stored under a lean to. I should have popped it back in the kiln for a couple of weeks. I have some gaps on that floor, although it doesn't bother me, and doesn't seem to bother anyone that sees it. That lumber that was processed straight out of the kiln has virtually no gaps. I have had just a few boards pop up. But with about 2200 sq ft of flooring, after 3 years, I think it has a pretty good track record.

I do know the guy that made all that flooring for me had a top and bottom side on the boards. I don't recall why now, but it was a slight difference. I do believe he scored the wider boards.

Again, if you have facebook or know someone that does, shoot me a message. My favorite room is the master bedroom, where they took leftover walnut, put in a border about 2 ft wide, and then filled the middle in with qs sycamore.

Meadows Miller

Gday

Flooring can get complicated along with any Value Adding Venture but it can be simple to and done on a small scale well to we have mills here that saw and dry flooring from 250000bft rite on through to the Big Mills like the one I was at which was the largest supplier of Mountain Ash Flooring in the World at one stage if you want to do flooring here on a small scale you saw and put yur timber into packs of what grade you are chasing stick it out and Air Dry it and then send it out to a larger mill with extra kiln capacity to Final Dry it and maby even dress it for you  ;)

The beauty of that is that you only have the time and the resource tied up in it as much as you like ie. if you want to get 5-10 or 20000bft + over the corse of a year then take it and get it Final Dried somewhere else it works and it is a prety economical way to do it too  ;) ;D alot of people then have the molder and docker to finish it themselves als down here as alot also do Airdried Flooring and Decking also  ;) ;D

Down here we have three distinct grades and all of them sell well into global markets  :)  #1 Select (The Best of the Best) Q/Sawn no defects  #2 Standard (Good to Average Quality) and Natural Feature Grade (plain ole run of the mill with alot of defect allowed Knots,Gum Veinand Pockets,Borer Holes ect ect) as long as you have one good flat face on the board for service ;)

We still work on on the 4-6-8 & 10" wide boards here if its Sawn to Size stock the only exception being 3" material  but all the Big mills have switched to Cut,Dry,Rip where for flooring stcok you cut 1" slabs whatever width the log will yeald it dose get seperated in Q/sawn & B/sawn then Dry It and send it Through and edger to Get the best recovery Ourt of each board which it dose  ;)

Jim I will say I am going to be doing Flooring,Lining and Decking if you focus on doing it well and properly and educate people that timber is a living thing even after its cut down and layed in their home you should be fine  ;)

Regards Chris 
4TH Generation Timbergetter

Meadows Miller

Gday

Bob I have layed over 25 floors over the years  :) strait over Joist and Over Sub Floors such as Ply or Chipboard we used alot of subfloors on the log homes to give us something to work of and then lay the floor over it  ;)

With a dirty subfloor preasure wash the floor of and let it dry before you lay the timber (might be abit harder with a stud frame home if you already have the interior walls on   ??? :) :D) but you should get away with a dang good clean out with a stiff broom  ;) & you can use Liquid Nails but only to add extra holing capacity plus it bonds your floor to the subfloor  ;) I still prefer to Face Nail Floors over Seceret Nailed but have done both and they are still going strong and looking good  ;) ;D ;D

With secret nailing you have choices as you can buy (atleast here) a seceret nail profile which has a slight set back on one side of the tongue to allow you to get a little better nail hold through the piece and on one side of the groove the sholder piece is longer to give you a nice tight fit  ;) both profile can be either seceret nailed eithe in hand nailed or done with a 2 to 2&1/2 finnishing gun I like using the bostich alloy finish nails  ;) ;D

I do prefer getting Standard Profile Flooring as You can pick which face you want to use and nail it  ;) ;D ;D

Ill say now Timber floors for the best prefomance need a sealing coat which breaths (Any Timber Work Dose !!! ) anything that seals one side of the timber compleatly while the other side breaths will cause nothing but bloody dramas in its service life  ??? :) ::) Oil Based is best ( I use Boiled Linnseed oil with a tropical mould inhibitor in it ) and a Finnish Coat of Bees Wax buffed on  ;) ;D ;D 8)

Regards Chris

4TH Generation Timbergetter

Cypressstump

A sawyer friend of mine had some very fine looking flooring he milled for a customer. It was qtr sawn native Magnolia.  The grain texture was absolute awesome.

My friend never saw the finished floor. Does anyone have any experience with Magnolia for flooring?  I have access to two decent Issac blow downs, Magnolias roughly 20 inch dia and nice 16 footers.
Stump

Timberking 1220 25hp w/extensions -hard mounted
Case 586E 6k forklift
2001 F350 4X4,Arctic Cat 500 4 wheeler wagon hauler
Makita 6401 34",4800 Echo 20"er, and a professional 18" Poulan PRO , gotta be a 'pro' cuz it says so rite there on tha' saw..

drobertson

The two flooring mills here have the set up. they grade all the boards then dry them, then the boards go through the process of ripped and cut removing knots. Then molded and end matched. Tight knots are acceptable and  look pretty good to me.   13/16 is the pre-finished size, before final sanding. 2" up to 4" is pretty standard. 18" to 4' pretty standard.  I did see a show, "this old house" where they used  reclaimed oak and did the grooving on a table saw,  The floor looked spectacular.  The kiln process is critical for the as mentioned comment ,sterilization. Lots of work to let the insects destroy.
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

pineywoods

Stump, if you can get that magnolia, go for it. Makes some beautiful boards, BUT. Saw it and get it on stickers asap. Logs left laying around will turn to mush very quickly. Once dry, it's surprisingly hard..


Okra, I have made and installed a bit of oak flooring. Unless you have access to a 4 sided moulder, the process is very labor intensive. Air dry, then kiln dry. Plane boards, both sides, make sure they are all the same thickness. Then Edge the boards on the mizer. Do all the lumber on one edge without moving the mill head up or down, then flip the boards over, lower the head a bit and repeat. I usually do a stack of 8 or 10 boards at a time. It is critical that all boards be absolutely the same width and perfectly straight. I usually start out with 8 ft lengths. The tongue and groove can be done with a router mounted in a table, one pass for the tongue, another for the groove. Use a good fence on the table. I finally gave up and bought a used shaper. The larger cutters on a shaper leave a smoother finish with less tearout.
Here's the finished product..All the dust is from sanding.




 



 
1995 Wood Mizer LT 40, Liquid cooled kawasaki,homebuilt hydraulics. Homebuilt solar dry kiln.  Woodmaster 718 planner, Kubota M4700 with homemade forks and winch, stihl  028, 029, Ms390
100k bd ft club.Charter member of The Grumpy old Men

Okrafarmer

Thanks, guys, and Chris who is a bloke  ;) :D ;D ::)

That helps a good bit. I haven't followed up on all the links you've sent, but I shall shortly.

If I do any of it in the near future, the following factors will apply.

1. I will have it kiln dried. I already have a kiln I work with. In the future, would like to have one for my company, and that may happen eventually.

2. The shiplap system sounds intriguing, but I'm not sure how well it would sell around here-- the difference between offering a known product versus selling a concept that is new to many

3. One thing, which somebody alluded to, is the grooves on the bottom of a standard piece of flooring. I assume I would have to add those as well. I guess they relieve some of the stresses in a piece and render it more docile over its life?

4. So how much extra do you have to leave before you TNG, or shiplap? I will look at the shiplap link in a minute, but I am guessing the boards are parallelogram in cross-section?

5. I have access to a company that can do any kind of molding needed, so I can pay to have them do it up for me, and, especially if I take them a good bit at once, say 1,000 sq feet or more, they can do it fairly economically. If the working relationship is good over the years, I may just continue to have them do it. With all the costs I have right now, I should be able to manufacture flooring for $2-2.50 / square foot expenses and material input. Now I know that low-cost discount flooring is sold for these prices and even less, so I have to make sure that it is higher quality, and/or better salesmanship, and/or species that can't be found other places.

Pineywoods, thanks for the heads up about the Magnolia. I have about 4 logs, and three of them are fairly fresh, the other maybe 6 months old or so. I better get on that one ASAP.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

DouginUtah


I must have missed the name of your Facebook page. Using Kansas doesn't get it.  :D
-Doug
When you hang around with good people, good things happen. -Darrell Waltrip

There is no need to say 'unleaded regular gas'. It's all unleaded. Just say 'regular gas'. It's not the 70s anymore. (At least that's what my wife tells me.)

---

Okrafarmer

Quote from: DouginUtah on September 24, 2012, 11:38:55 AM

I must have missed the name of your Facebook page. Using Kansas doesn't get it.  :D

Usually you should PM someone to ask to see their FB page, or to "friend" them on there. As some people, like Kansas and myself, use a pseudonym on here for privacy's sake.  ;) I PM'd Kansas.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

Al_Smith

I don't know about flooring because I've never made any .Recently however I did tongue and groove a couple ash boards for a fireplace mantle done on a table mounted router with side pressure and down pressure feather boards .Now let me be the first to say that is a giant and monumental pain in the rear because  the cutters have to be dead on to come out correctly .

If the cutters are off as little as 10 thou you have a lot of time working them down with a belt sander .Certainly not a good idea for flooring .You might make a repair piece but not the whole floor .

losttheplot

If your doing small amounts on a table saw, run the board through twice, turning the stock between cuts, that will center the cut.
DON'T BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOU THINK !

kelLOGg

Quote from: Meadows Miller on September 24, 2012, 09:27:33 AM
& you can use Liquid Nails but only to add extra holing capacity plus it bonds your floor to the subfloor 

Chris,
LiquidNails, huh, that is very good news. the hardwood floor adhesive at HD would cost me $300 just to glue down flooring for a 16' x 12' studio.  Just run a couple of beads down a 5" wide flooring board? would that do it?

Thanks,

Bob
Cook's MP-32, 20HP, 20' (modified w/ power feed, up/down, loader/turner)
DH kiln, CatClaw setter and sharpener, tandem trailer, log arch, tractor, thumb tacks

countryjonez

I cut 1 1/8 on the sawmill side, then finish at 3/4. You will save alot of lumber with random width. I like the looks better in most cases. We use all lengths down to around a foot. The more knots and distressed the better for me!!
If God be for us who can be against us ?

Kansas

Quote from: Okrafarmer on September 24, 2012, 11:43:18 AM
Quote from: DouginUtah on September 24, 2012, 11:38:55 AM

I must have missed the name of your Facebook page. Using Kansas doesn't get it.  :D

Usually you should PM someone to ask to see their FB page, or to "friend" them on there. As some people, like Kansas and myself, use a pseudonym on here for privacy's sake.  ;) I PM'd Kansas.

Actually, its okay.. We give out the addy all the time. Its also a portal to our Kansas Hardwoods facebook page, along with the Kansas Forest products assn, along with others. And eventually will be linked to our website that Jeff has, once I get back with the program so he can finish it. If there is something I don't want people to see there, you won't see it. To get to the face book page, type this in..

Floersch@wamego.net

Settings are wide open on all pages.

Okrafarmer

 :) Ok, Kansas, now that we are FB friends, where on your personal page do I link to your business? When I click on the link for your business, it says "no info entered yet".

I will poke around a little more. . . .
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

POSTON WIDEHEAD

Quote from: Okrafarmer on September 24, 2012, 08:24:36 PM
:) Ok, Kansas, now that we are FB friends, where on your personal page do I link to your business? When I click on the link for your business, it says "no info entered yet".

I will poke around a little more. . . .

He's pulling your chain..... :D And you're falling for it.  :D
The older I get I wish my body could Re-Gen.

Kansas

Most of the time when someone pulls my chain, they happen to be female. And I fall for it everytime. But I am sure that has never happened to any of the other guys on here.

We have had people post and such on it the last month. Should be right there, Kansas Hardwoods Inc.

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