So I have this dillemma

[badpenny]

   A local person asked me to look at some logs he has and give him a price on sawing. So I looked at the logs, 6" to 14" tops, 10' long, jack pine, and he wants all 2x4 and 2x6 with no 1" boards, Also wants them stacked and stickered next to the mill. I am guessing the stickers will "magically" appear. When I told him .25 a bdft, he almost accused me of highway robbery, as "the circle mill last year only charged 12.5 cents". This circle mill is 65 miles away from his log pile, and he does not want to pay for hauling, as fuel has driven hauling prices beyond his budget. Am I wrong in my thinking, or is my price about in line with most others? I am a one man show with a manual 18" mill, so the best I have done for myself is 500 bft a day, stacked and stickered from 12-18" 12 ' long pine making mostly 2x8 with 1x and stickers from flitches.
   There is about 6,500 bft of lumber to be milled from his logs, so would be about 3 weeks of work for me. I have not done any "for hire" milling yet, this would be my first paying customer. Any and all comments or suggestions would be appreciated

[sawguy21]

What do you mean, he wants them stacked and stickered next to the mill? Is he trying to tell you how to do your job and is it his mill or yours you would be using? From your description, sounds like the job might not be worth the aggravation.

[4woody]

most guys around here get .35 cents so i dont see its to much

[hiya]

I run into this in my home improvement business. There are too many people like that. They want it for nothing, than laugh about it later how they took advanyage of you. You know what you have to have to live. If you work for less than that you may as well work for nothing. In that 3 weeks you could be making more doing something else.
just my 2 cents worth, ( with inflation thats not much ;D).
Richard

[barbender]

I think it would be tough to make money cutting dimension lumber with a manual mill. (that's what I have too) If you are cutting 500bf a day, which I think you're right, is a pretty good day for 1 guy on a manual, you're only making $125 a day at .25 a bf. At the same time, your customer would be paying $1.33 per 8' 2x4 and $2 per 8' 2x6. That's a little heavy and I can understand where he's coming from. I would pass on this one personally, too many board feet. Maybe watch for specialty jobs that would be too small for a big mill, that people would pay you by the hour or something. I've never cut for pay either, just my own wood, so as always just my .02

[Mooseherder]

Thats only 125.00 a day before expenses assuming everything goes right.

[arj]

In Connecticut I get .37 stacked on skids. Stickers and skids are made
from there logs. Logs must be delivered to my site, and lumber picked
up and payed for SOON after I`m done cutting. I run an Oscar 36
                              arj

[woodbowl]

I'm full time at this badpenny, sawing on the customers site with a WM that has hydraulics. I charge .20 for 2X & .225 for 1X. I haven't went up in price in 5 years, but I probably need to. It seems to me that you are more than fair in your price. The only thing I would do different is, I wouldn't sticker the lumber. That will eat your profit right up.

When I first started sawing, I did things like that to build my buisness. If your OK with $125 bucks a day for your efforts right now, I'd say go for it. It's good experience.

When I told him .25 a bdft, he almost accused me of highway robbery

There's your que. I call it "that ole' talk". I usually say something like ... if you want me to saw it, I'll be glad to saw it for you, if you don't that'll be alright too.

I don't let them push me around much any more, but I've never left a job either. If they act like a jerk, I charge them close. If they appreciate my work and try to make things flow, I find myself giving extra boards to the count and going out of my way to make things easier for them. Funny how that works. Seems to me like you just spotted a hair splitter.  

[badpenny]

   Thanks, all, you are right in line with my thinking. I can understand his thinking on cost of milling, plus cost of planing in a year or so, will be as much or more than what the big box stores are charging per piece. But I'm not into paying him for the priveledge of milling his logs into lumber. I have a Navy retirement to live on, so this is not a "have to" type of work. And when the planer in town needs an extra set of hands
when making log siding, I work 3-5 days a month for him,for cash, and they provide lunch. The owner is an old school chum of mine, and has an artificial right leg from just above the knee from a hunting accident, so they get cheap help, and I get a free meal. Not sure which of us is coming out on top there.
  I think that milling and dead stacking next to the mill for .25 is not to bad, and let him stack and sticker where he wants to will be the only way for me to go, if at all.

[Rail-O-Matic]

What I have done in the past when I get penny pinchers like him is, offer to take a % of the lumber as payment, but tell them you will charge for the fuel and time it takes to sticker it all up, and nine times out of ten, they tell me they want to sticker it themselves, but they don't realise where the stickers are coming from, if they do, then they are on the make, walk away.

Its funny how some think that giving you produce instead of money, will save them money, but what they don't realise is, when the boards are dry its worth more to you, if you take boards for payment, make sure you have a buyer waiting a size that they need for a job they are doing.

If they turn their noses up at this one, again walk away, because they will never be happy with what ever you offer them, they are like our Yorkshire men, short arms and very deep pockets, only kidding, there.

[SwampDonkey]

$125 a day wouldn't make much profit. I don't mill, but if it's my equipment and I gotta move off site, I gotta have a minimum of $300/day. So if they want more production than the 500 bf, they better be ready to tail and sticker boards. ;D I dunno what box stores your buying lumber at, but I can get my lumber alot cheaper at the sawmill, all kilned and planed. When it comes to buying hardwood at the box stores, they're asking $5-$12 a running foot, not board foot - kilned and planed.  :P

[Brad_S.]

The hardest thing for me to learn in business was to say the word "no". I charge an extra 5¢ a bdft. for stickering, and your sawing rate is fine. IMO, you have a complainer on your hands who won't be satisfied with anything you do at any price. Pass on this one.

[Part_Timer]

We charge .30 bf.  This includes cutting stickers for them.  If they want me to stack and sticker it for them also then another.10 unless their a good customer then we help for free.

At the size of those logs I'd be charging buy the hour.   Seems to me like you'd be spending all your time with rolling logs not cutting logs.

[bull]

I wouldn't touch that job.... The whinning has already started before you even accepted the work

I won't touch custom sawing for less than .40 a bfd. I stack and sticker everything as it comes off the mill. "I hate Stain" !!!!

Remember the customer is always wrong, if they were right they would do the job themselves and have as much fun as we do !!!! 8) :D

[VA-Sawyer]

It was customers like that, that made me change over from charging by the boardfoot to charging by the hour. Apearently he thinks your mill must run on air. The high cost of fuel has raised trucking out of his reach, but he seems to think you can still saw for last years prices.
I would tell him .25/bf for sawing and $20/hr for your time stickering. If he doesn't like your rates, no problem, he can talk to someone else. Believe me, you really don't want him as a customer.
VA-Sawyer

[jpgreen]

Obviously trying to get over on you.  I just look at those people and smile with a big laugh when they suggest such a thing..  :D

Ask him for the name and number of the mill that works for 12.5 cents..  :D

[WkndCutter]

What Va-Sawyer said is spot on.  Guys like this made me go to an hourly rate.  Working the whole job of loading through stacking you are giving this guy a great deal at $.25 a bf.  I'd pass on the job and chauk it up to a learning experience.

[SawDust_Studios]

We get alot of jobs on construction sites. I get the same thing, we charge .30bdft and guys sometimes gasp for air when I say that.  I've had a few instances where we've cut at the same time the backhoe guys are still there, so I ask the homeowner.  Whats he charging you per hour? 

Its usually anywhere from $50-65/hr around here. I say, that is fine, I'll charge you $50/hr then instead of .30/bdft.  It works out better for me in the long run.  I have a $30,000+ machine and I'm paying 2 guys, what is the difference? Usually they back off about that time. ;)

[beenthere]

I may have missed it, but is the BF measurement based on the log scale of the logs he brings to you (which is what I think it should be) or the BF scale of the pieces he picks out of the stacked and stickered pile that he thinks are suitable (meaning you get nothing if the logs are poor quality, and therefore the 2x's are low quality, and he doesn't want any of them)?  ???

And to me, the worst thing you could do would be lower your price when he whined, as it supports his thinking your price is too high. Lose this one, and you will be better off as others have suggested. He whimpereth too soon in the deal

[Fla._Deadheader]

As I get older, I get harder to impress. This guy I would have laughed in his face. You are entitled to the same money as the Backhoe guy.

  Since you changed the way you price the job, I would stick with the Hourly rate as he didn't want to pay the bd/ft rate. Can't keep switching prices for this loser.

  Find another customer and don't look back.

[Bibbyman]

   ....When I told him .25 a bdft, he almost accused me of highway robbery, as "the circle mill last year only charged 12.5 cents".

My quick reply would be, "Then that's the place to take them." and the converstion would end right there.

We've done some stacking and sticking for a few customers and charged $350/mbf.

[SawDust_Studios]

 

As I get older, I get harder to impress. This guy I would have laughed in his face. You are entitled to the same money as the Backhoe guy.

  Since you changed the way you price the job, I would stick with the Hourly rate as he didn't want to pay the bd/ft rate. Can't keep switching prices for this loser.

  Find another customer and don't look back.

Believe me, we've seriously considered going to hourly for everything. I know alot of mills doing that now.  It used to be alot of the farmers and other customers around here knew what a bdft was and what they where getting in return. Not so much anymore, so you get these gentleman farmers and landowners that at least understand if you work 8 hrs, your paying me $400. 

BTW:  Sawing for that job came out to about $48/hr, so I saved him $2/hr and left him know it. ;)

[footer]

I have started charging $70.00 an hour,$20.00 pr blade that hits metal, and $1.00 pr mile one way to saw on site. The hrly rate starts when the mill is set up and goes untill the last board is cut.  If I do any trimming, stacking, handling or whatnot it is the same rate. I used to charge $50.00 an hr, but with the price increases of everything in the last few years, it just seemed like I was just sawing to cover my expenses. I have yet to have anyone question the pricing, and have never had anyone ask me to cut stickers, let alone sticker their wood. I have helped load the wood on their trailer, or truck though.
I would't touch that job with a 10 foot pole for .25 a bdft. Not with a manual mill anyway.

[millit]

 :-\ i would lose this guy also tell him to buy a mill  :D try it see if he works for less. I charge 100 bucks to move it set up customere gets logs to mill i saw the lumber. put in piles (not Stickered) and charge bf of lumber sawed

[solodan]

$125 a day wouldn't make much profit. I don't mill, but if it's my equipment and I gotta move off site, I gotta have a minimum of $300/day.

I'm right there with SD, we all live in different areas and cost of living reflects how much you can afford to work for. I may work for $300 a day if I had nothing else going on, but for me I really want to make $500 a day. I think you know what you are capable of producing in a day, and base your prices on how much you are willing to work for.

[Warren]

I'm with Brad_S regarding it is tough to say "no" when you're starting up a business. But there comes a time when you learn that in some instances, "no business" is better than "bad business". 

I've also used Bibby's line "Well then, thats the place to take your logs."  when they start singing the praises of another mill.

I had one customer I cut for one time.  Swore I would never saw another one of his logs.  Later on found out he has been run out of two other mills.  Any time he comes around, I am always busy with "something".

Warren

[badpenny]

   Thanks, all, for your responses. A message on my voice-mail today explained that I'm charging too much, and he will be looking elsewhere for a sawyer. I wish him the best of luck with no animosity.
  Deer season opens Sat am, and goes to the sunday before Thanksgiving, so now I have time to hunt.

[bull]

Good luck hunting !!

[VA-Sawyer]

The question about using log or lumber scale brings back a bad memory. My .30/bf rate was based on counting the good lumber. I was sawing Walnut for a customer that was hard to please. He would put usable boards over in the slab pile because they had sapwood or too many knots or some other excuse. He only paid for the wood in the 'good' stack. Of course, when I came back the next day to finish the job the slab pile was a lot smaller than I had left it the night before. I was new to the game at that point and didn't know what to do about it. Later on, if I had a customer that wanted to call a fair board trash, I would put all the rejects back on the mill at the end of the day and saw them into narrow but random size strips to make sure they were trash.  Normally, at the end of the day, when I would add up the stacks to get a tally, I would be more than fair with the customer when it came to the bf total.  If  1/2 or more of the board was bad, I wouldn't count any of it, unless the good part was REALLY great and at least 6' long. I always made sure if the customer went back and totaled up the bf  on his own, that he would have more than he was billed for.  Most customers were happy with my tally, and the bill that followed. The few that weren't.... would have complained if I billed only a dollar for the whole job.
Now, I charge by the hour. I never charge for more hours than I spend on the job, but sometimes, I don't charge for all the hours. It's my choice now.
VA-Sawyer

[rebocardo]

"the circle mill last year only charged 12.5 cents".

I would have said that is a great deal. My price is still $#.## a foot .

I charged $0.50 a foot and even at that price, I have sold all the wood off the mill.

At .25 a foot a 2x4 is going to cost him $1.33.  Can he get it cheaper at Home Depot?

> Also wants them stacked and stickered next to the mill.

That is when you start charging $50 an hour and ask if he wants to help.

>  Am I wrong in my thinking, or is my price about in line with most others?

For small jobs, a bit on the low side. I think it depends on the target market for the wood. Is it for shed wood where very board with wane is being used where the lowest cost per board matters or is it for a cabinet maker?

>  so would be about 3 weeks of work for me. I have not done any "for hire" milling yet,
> this would be my first paying customer.

Knowing this I would say take the job for the .025 per foot. Then next job go to hourly $30-$50 or .50 a foot. Especially for 2x4 which takes a lot of time.

I know using a chainsaw mill cutting 2x12x96 you can easily cut 500 BF a day. I would stick with cutting 2"x12" wide material to maximize your BF per day at .25 a foot. If he wants 2x4 and 2x6 I would charge .50 a foot. You have the saw, he does not, cut on your terms to make the most money per hour. Let him "save" money by cutting the 2x12s down on his own table saw.  ;) 

All done and said, if you can not earn $30-$50 an hour using your own equipment, you are not charging enough and I do not care what the BF per day is.

[rebocardo]

"the circle mill last year only charged 12.5 cents".

I would have said that is a great deal. My price is still $#.## a foot .

I charged $0.50 a foot and even at that price, I have sold all the wood off the mill.

At .25 a foot a 2x4 is going to cost him $1.33.  Can he get it cheaper at Home Depot?

> Also wants them stacked and stickered next to the mill.

That is when you start charging $50 an hour and ask if he wants to help.

>  Am I wrong in my thinking, or is my price about in line with most others?

For small jobs, a bit on the low side. I think it depends on the target market for the wood. Is it for shed wood where very board with wane is being used where the lowest cost per board matters or is it for a cabinet maker?

>  so would be about 3 weeks of work for me. I have not done any "for hire" milling yet,
> this would be my first paying customer.

Knowing this I would say take the job for the .025 per foot. Then next job go to hourly $30-$50 or .50 a foot. Especially for 2x4 which takes a lot of time.

I know using a chainsaw mill cutting 2x12x96 you can easily cut 500 BF a day. I would stick with cutting 2"x12" wide material to maximize your BF per day at .25 a foot. If he wants 2x4 and 2x6 I would charge .50 a foot. You have the saw, he does not, cut on your terms to make the most money per hour. Let him "save" money by cutting the 2x12s down on his own table saw.  ;) 

All done and said, if you can not earn $30-$50 an hour using your own equipment, you are not charging enough and I do not care what the BF per day is.

> "the circle mill last year only charged 12.5 cents".

This proverb is 300 years old

14 " It is good for nothing," cries the buyer;
      But when he has gone his way, then he boasts."

[SawDust_Studios]

  Thanks, all, for your responses. A message on my voice-mail today explained that I'm charging too much, and he will be looking elsewhere for a sawyer. I wish him the best of luck with no animosity.
  Deer season opens Sat am, and goes to the sunday before Thanksgiving, so now I have time to hunt.

Don't be suprised if the guy calls back in a few days saying something like "Everyone else is busy, so I guess I'll LET you do it for that"  I've had a few guys offer to take business elsewhere, some did, some where happy others weren't, but many came back..  Some people just want to be able to dicker the price, no matter what. 

[SawDust_Studios]

The question about using log or lumber scale brings back a bad memory. My .30/bf rate was based on counting the good lumber. I was sawing Walnut for a customer that was hard to please. He would put usable boards over in the slab pile because they had sapwood or too many knots or some other excuse. He only paid for the wood in the 'good' stack. Of course, when I came back the next day to finish the job the slab pile was a lot smaller than I had left it the night before. I was new to the game at that point and didn't know what to do about it. Later on, if I had a customer that wanted to call a fair board trash, I would put all the rejects back on the mill at the end of the day and saw them into narrow but random size strips to make sure they were trash.  Normally, at the end of the day, when I would add up the stacks to get a tally, I would be more than fair with the customer when it came to the bf total.  If  1/2 or more of the board was bad, I wouldn't count any of it, unless the good part was REALLY great and at least 6' long. I always made sure if the customer went back and totaled up the bf  on his own, that he would have more than he was billed for.  Most customers were happy with my tally, and the bill that followed. The few that weren't.... would have complained if I billed only a dollar for the whole job.
Now, I charge by the hour. I never charge for more hours than I spend on the job, but sometimes, I don't charge for all the hours. It's my choice now.
VA-Sawyer

I had something similar happen a few months ago.  My friend is an cabinet maker with 20yrs experience.  He had a customer come by with Walnut logs, he wanted a kitchen out of them.  My friend has a small breezewood mill and cuts his own logs only, but will do this if the person is buying a kitchen. 

Long story short, the guy decides he doesn't want the kitchen but still wants his logs sawed.   So, I get the job and my friend helped.  I tell him I charge .30bdft and we will stack it for him and he needs to sticker it when he gets home.  My friend asked me to measure the stack and he measured it separately, we came up a mere 30 bdft different.  The total was 1450bdft.  When the guy comes to pick up the lumber with his friend, he says nothing.  He'll drop off the check later that day.  When he comes back, he says "My friends been in the logging business for 30yrs and he said there was no more than 1000bdft in those stacks.  We told him that was fine, if it was our mistake, we'd gladly goto his place and remeasure everything.  He backed off and said, no thats ok. I"ll just pay it.   

Some people just like to take advantage.  Sometimes starting out, you let them. With a little experience, you quickly can identifying most of these people.

[badpenny]

   And when he calls back, I will probably be too "busy' at a higher rate to be able to work his sawing into my schedule. Still have siding for my house to get sawn this winter, and in a month or so, birch to make into 4 1/4 for cabinets and such. And firewood for my mom's wood furnace, snow to plow,trees to cut, logs to skid, deer to hunt  well you get the idea. Come spring, there will be a basement to dig, blocks to lay, and get a house built by fall to move from this corncrib of a mobile home into.Did I mention there are deer to hunt? And Jesse will need a few days here and there for log siding
I have to admit, the extra $ would be nice, that would let me get a sharpener and setter for the blades, but thats not high on the list right now. Did I mention deer season opens This Sat?

[VA-Sawyer]

If he calls back, go talk with him. Sometimes all it takes to make a good customer is some education. His calling back will mean that he has learned a thing or two about Sawyers and their value. If he still has an attitude... well, it does sound like you are going to be real busy this winter and spring. And, there WILL be a price increase next spring if not before.
VA-Sawyer

[jpgreen]

Maybe he's like my grandmother who's so tight she sqeeks, and if you mention a number, I don't care where it is, or what it is, it's an automatic gasp, and automatic flintch, and a look like you're crazy..  :D

[SwampDonkey]

The longest piece of lumber I used on a project might be handy to 4 feet. That being said, I can pretty much use anything off a mill as long as it ain't a cork screw when dry. So, for someone to go sorting through my milled boards and rejecting what he calls junk so he don't have to pay, then to have the pile of rejects (I consider belongs to me by now) to disappear at night, I think I'de consider that being a robbery in progress. Pack up the mill and warn any sawer to stear clear.  :

[DomR]

I don't quite understand.  If he cut the trees and you cut them into boards ( what you were hired to do ) then why wouldn't you charge for the work.  I usually work with steel and if I go through the process of making parts to spec they get shipped and billed for all of them.  If they should find something wrong I have them send it back to me and credit the account.  Customer does not keep bad parts- I do.  At that point it's my loss.  If they want to keep the "bad" boards I would charge for them or else cut them into strips so they actually are BAD (and useless) lumber
just my 1.6 cents (allowing for inflation)
Dom

[Fla._Deadheader]

YEP. You can only get out of a log what is IN it. Not your problem that the customers logs are "Iffy". I would stack and measure ALL boards that are "usable". If it's not usable in the log, cut big slabs. Every cut you make takes time and material. Culling is not acceptable except if you are trying to make cuts at all cost. There is always "evening up" cuts to get a better surface. There is always "test" cuts, to see if serious defect runs out in the next board. That's all I DON'T charge for. I don't charge for a small amount of stickers. Lots of stickers, I edge boards and keep track of what I used FOR stickers, and charge for it. Raising your price will cover some of this "picky" stuff, if needed.

  If it's not usable, be sure it's not, unless the customer is new or a really good customer. Any signs of Whining or other things, I get suspicious.

[VA-Sawyer]

SD and DomR,
I was fairly new to the world of sawing back then. I didn't really understand that a log could look nice and only have junk wood in it. I was under the impression that a good sawyer could always get good wood out of a good looking log. I believed that any time a good looking log gave me junk wood that it was due to my lack of knowledge and skill as a sawyer. I know better now, but that is the reason my sawing contract said I only charged for the good lumber produced.
There is a little more to the story about the guy that was putting usable boards in the slab stack... the job was about 50 miles away and I only charge mileage for one trip per job. If it is large enough I can't finish in one day, then it is probably worth the cost of going back . Problem was, I would have everything that was ready for sawing all cut up by early afternoon, so I wasn't getting a full day of sawing for my travel. He would then haul more logs up to the saw area (over a week or two of time) and expected me to consider it as being the same job, so as to not have more travel charges.  I did make enough trips to cut all the logs he had shown me in the woods on my origional scouting trip. After that, I quit returning his calls. That was about 2 1/2 years ago, and he still stands out as being my worst customer ever. 
There have been guys like him since then, but I figure out their game pretty quick and don't let them get to me. 
VA-Sawyer

[footer]

These are some good reasons to charge by the HR for custom sawing. You also don't have to take the time and measure all the wood you cut. If it were me, I would charge for every board cut, unless I screwed it up. It is your equipment, and there logs. It costs just as much to saw junk logs as good ones.

[DR Buck]

My quick reply would be, "Then that's the place to take them." and the converstion would end right there.

We've done some stacking and sticking for a few customers and charged $350/mbf.

I agree with Bibby and many of the others who have commented.   To me this is a "no thank you, I'm not interested" job.    Everything I cut is 30¢ bf  or $60 per hour.  And, I don't stack and sticker.  That's the log owners job to take care of.  My job is to run the mill.  My mill don't even roll out the drive for less than $250.    In the almost 3 years I've been milling, I've learned to walk away from small logs, logs not stacked where I can get them on the mill easy, and customers that sound like there may be issues.   I don't need the problems and thats what those jobs are.

[VA-Sawyer]

Sometimes, it goes the other way. The customer is nice and the log fools both the customer and the sawyer. I had a fellow call me from West Point ( about 15 miles away ). He had a Black Walnut log he was going to bring over for me to saw. He arrived with the log on a trailer, so I took a moment to look it over before moving it over to the mill. Good looking log, about 100 bf, fairly straight with no big knots or signs of rot. We put it on the mill and 2 cuts later, the story is very different. The whole inside of the log is mud. It starts about a foot from one end and runs till about a foot from the other end. I'm not talking a little 'punky' here, the stuff was falling out of the log as I was sawing. I told him we could stop right there and I wouldn't charge him anything for my time. He said to keep sawing, as he had put in too much effort to quit now. He got maybe 5 bf of usable wood, and paid me full price for sawing the log, about 25 or 30 dollars as I recall. I did feel a bit guilty about charging so much and him only getting junk wood, but I had offered him an out.
Well, that was over a year ago, and was the first time I met the guy. He has brought me a few jobs since then, and sent some other folks my way as well. He is a pleasent fellow to be around and always insists that he pays full price. I think about that Walnut log every time he pays me.
He called the other day and wanted to know if I could fit him in and saw some Cedar for him. As we were cutting out his boards, I asked him what he was going to build with that nice wood. He asked "if I really wanted to know". I said "yes, I did". Turns out he is using it to build the coffin for a 'lifelong' friend.  I told him any wood I saw for a coffin gets a 'third off ' discount because of its special purpose use. This time he took the discount. I'm glad he did.
VA-Sawyer

[rebocardo]

Wow, great story.

[4woody]

YEAP VERRY TOUCHING  STORY

[Tom]

I'll bet your customer remembers your compassion as well.  Good story.