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Using Polyethylene Glycol (P.E.G.)

Started by neslrite, February 26, 2004, 05:40:35 PM

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neslrite

Hello,
I have customer who wants me to saw him two 8x16x12ft red oak timbers, he is going to leave them outside but does not want it to split or check to bad.
   He was told that he could use P.E.G (polyethylene glycol)
to help stabilize it.
Anybody got any experence using P.E.G???
Your input would be appriciated.
neslrite
rule#1 nobody ever puts just one nail in a tree  LogRite Tools  www.logrite.com

Kirk_Allen

Antifreeze?  Never heard of anyone using it to prevent splits or checks.  

Anchoreseal would be my choice.


neslrite

Hello,

 This is something different,antifreeze does not have the Poly in front.
neslrite
rule#1 nobody ever puts just one nail in a tree  LogRite Tools  www.logrite.com

Minnesota_boy

I hope you have a big tub.  I've been told that you have to soak the wood in PEG for it to work.  It displaces the water so the wood doesn't shrink.
I eat a high-fiber diet.  Lots of sawdust!

Jeff

Thats my understanding, and it takes a long long time. I believe the process is that the P.E.G. migrates through and displaces the water within the cells keeping the cell walls from collapsing, thus stopping shrinking and cracks. I know its an imperfect science that is used on tree cookies and turning stock but I don't think soaking a beam would be feasable.

Ditto on using the Anchor seal.
Just call me the midget doctor.
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Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

EZ

Linseed oil works for me, you have to keep coating it every so often.
EZ

etat

Try an experiment.

Take one, fresh bought, wet 6/6 pressure treated post.  Cut two sections from one end.  Appx, 1 to 4 feet. Put in dry, heated area. Do not treat in any way.

At the same time, cut two sections from the other end, appx, 1 to 4 feet.  Put in same heated area.  Take antifreeze and bursh heavily, each side and each end.  Do not allow any pets, or children near, poly glycol would probably be safer, but that was unavailable for my experiment.

Also cut a couple of sections of pressure treated 2/6, treat two pieces, let other two pieces stay untreated.

After 24 hours, the untreated pieces will be starting to dry.  The treated pieces will still be damp from the antifreeze.  Recoat the treated pieces, each end and each side, again heavily.  Restack, as said make sure this is a safe place, and leave along.  As said, I kept in heated room.

Check the results each week. I started my experiment almost two months ago.

The pieces treated with antifreeze show almost no signs of splitting, or checking.  The pieces not treated with antifreeze, especially the 6/6's, show severe splitting.
In comparing the weight of the pieces after two months there is almost no notible difference.  Also the pieces now show no signs of having been painted with antifreeze, although I believe residue would still have to be in the wood.

My conclusion is I believe the antifreeze while not stopping, did slow down the drying process, making the wood that I treated, as said with a paint brush,  less prone to split or check.  My understanding of pressure treated lumber is that it has been first dryed, and then is re wet with chemicals in a pressure chamber.  I have been told that it would be advantageous to sticker and dry this type wood before use. I would be interested to find out what the effects would be of trying this on green wood.
Old Age and Treachery will outperform Youth and Inexperence. The thing is, getting older is starting to be painful.

beav

what works best for me is

1 coat the ends of the log with sealer as soon as it is cut down

2 make sure the beam is free of heart. preferably quartered. this would take a huge log in this case

3 coat sawn surfaces with a mix of linseed oil and turpentine

4 air-dry in a cool, dry area for 10 years or so, or untill it stops losing weight. this is a tough step-I for one might not live long enough

for external use,several coats of good polyeurethane would be required

I have had luck with interior hemlock beams by skipping steps 3 and 4 and just giving them a good coat of poly just prior to or just after installation. not too sure how it would do with oak. it seems to slow the drying out to the 10 year rate.

MrMoo

Hoadley talks about PEG in his book "Understanding Wood". If I recall he said it needs to soak in it for a while. And what Jeff describes is correct it displaces the water in the wood.

burlman

peg is  solid and must be diluted in water. There are a bunch of different recipes for how strong a fornula you need for what wood. I have the guide book somewhere. It must be heated to remain manageable. It can be brushed on several times, but complete immersion is recomended in a heated vat the warmer it is the more freely it will be absorbed. I talked to a few of my woodturner customers who buy stock from me,about peg . They say it is to expensive and trouble some. They tell me when you sand a bowl treated in peg, the peg will melt from the friction and gum up your sandpaper real quick. Drying beams of that size will take alot of time, I hope he is not planning to build in the near future. All will look good till that first winter of heat and they will likely check anyway.Saw him some thin strips of veneer that he can glue on after they have dried.

etat

maybe I should a read the book, used the powdered variety, and built a vat to soak it in.  ???  My research too indicated the wood should be soaked for a long time.

what triggered my experiment"

after less than a week some short pieces I cut of the 6x6 split with cracks running almost through,

as I wanted to later stain and use these pieces for  braces I didn't want them splitting right off the bat,

although I had linseed oil, (I use it along with wax to make waterproofing)  I didn't know if the braces could later be stained after coating with linseed oil, cca lumber is well known for not accepting stain well anyway

I had no anchor seal

I 'hoped' the antifreee would dry out leaving no noticible residue


The only problem I encountered thus far


The antifreeze took almost a week to dry off the braces even in a heated area, I was starting to wonder if it ever would,  that is why I quit coating after two days.  I was starting to wonder if it would leave a residue



Perhaps the experiment was a fluke and I'll never get lucky again

What has been odd to me about this discussion,

There has been several comments about glycol, mostly negative, perhaps well founded.....

No one else has tried anything along these lines, modifying the theory that it has to be soaked for months just to see what happens if there is any advantage to soaking for a few days

Again, maybe the experiment was a fluke, or next summer the pieces will split wide open,



Old Age and Treachery will outperform Youth and Inexperence. The thing is, getting older is starting to be painful.

CHARLIE

I've been told that P.E.G. will also mess up finishes and keep them from drying properly.
Charlie
"Everybody was gone when I arrived but I decided to stick around until I could figure out why I was there !"

etat

Considering how long the pieces stayed wet before starting to dry  that I would think is probably true.  That's also why I quit coating after two days, in the hope that it would soak deep enough into the wood without fully saturating and the wood will take stain next summer.  Again, I'm talking about antifreeze, not true Polyethylene Glycol.  At this time, my experiment is incomplete. I will be using an oil based green stain, and then waterproofing.  It has been my experience that using a waterbased stain on cca is next to useless, it won't take, or hold, at least for me.  
Old Age and Treachery will outperform Youth and Inexperence. The thing is, getting older is starting to be painful.

OneWithWood

CK,
R. Bruce Hoadley's book, Understanding Wood, has a good write up on PEG beginning on page 136.  Your local library probably has a copy.  According to Hoadley antifreeze will not work as a stabilizer.
One With Wood
LT40HDG25, Woodmizer DH4000 Kiln

etat

Can't say I was trying to stabilize the wood as such, what I was trying to do was to slow down the drying of the entire outer shell, (got that term from a PM, thanks), without leaving a residue that would affect the staining.  In spite of the books, there are websites that indicate experimenting with or using antifreeze.  In spite of the books, the untreated cca has severe splitting, the pieces treated for two days with antifreeze, show no splitting of checking, again after appx. two months.  I myself happen to have a minor problem. I sometimes  do a bit of research and ask few questions  ofter before trying something.  But when I find opposing information sometimes I just gotta give er a whirl.  

Do you know:  There is on line a recipe for making a borate treatment for logs using borax, boric acid, antifreeze, much cheaper than buying the same mixture, premade.

Do you know, borate treated wood is resistant to mold and rot

Published disadvantages, borates may or will leach out of the wood, requiring occasional re treatment.  

There are also websites that indicate methods of long term protection of logs using peg, along with putting he logs under vacuum, and then pressurize, a multi stage process.

There is a prominent professor that will vehemently deny this would be a viable solution, and yet there are others who are experimenting and trying to perfect methods to do so.

I believe much more experimentation is in order, both form professionals, and private individuals so as to be able to draw correct conclusions, whatever they may be.



Old Age and Treachery will outperform Youth and Inexperence. The thing is, getting older is starting to be painful.

neslrite

Hello all,
Thanks for all the insight, it sounds like PEG would do the trick on a smaller scale. I think it would be impractical for him to soak these two large timbers.

neslrite
rule#1 nobody ever puts just one nail in a tree  LogRite Tools  www.logrite.com

BW_Williams

One more vote for Anchor Seal, I've got a RO table top slab I milled over a year ago, put 2 coats on, stood it up in the corner of the woodshed and no checks so far.  BWW
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Fla._Deadheader

BW, didja coat the entire slab, both faces AND all edges???
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   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

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BW_Williams

FLA, Both sides (faces?) and the ends, well the ends were coated when it was a log, the edges still have the bark on them and I'd like it to stay that way.  It's about 3" thick, 24" wide and 6' long,  with no pith, so we'll see in a couple more years.  BWW
Support your local Volunteer Fire Dept.  (not by accident)
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