Hello
I am working on building a swing mill. Its going to be electric to start with, my boss says I can run it off his power behind the shop where i work. I have a gear box on the way and have already purchased a nice 10hp electric motor. My next purchase is a blade. Anyone know if there is a saw place around here in Oregon where i can find a blade? Probably end up getting one from Craig (Captain) if I cant find anything around here. I used to own a Peterson ATS 8 and sold it to BurlKraft Steve. I miss it and cant afford to buy one again, but I can build my own. I work in a shop where we build everything from aluminum boats to billet lower receivers for AR-15s, 308 and 50bmg, and everything in between. We have a large waterjet pro, and an Esab CNC plasma cutter for custom cut parts. A 16 foot brake, and a 12 foot shear. Oh and 3 Haas mills for the receivers and whatever else. My boss said go for it.... 8) Anyone have any input? I know dangerous dan has a electric swinger. Anyone esle ever build one?
Tracy
Gday Tracy
Ive never built a swinger but thought about it alot and even did a set of turbo cad plans for one that looked like a Wpf ;) :D ;D done a few thousand hours on them tho and probobley got another 10 thou left to go on the Lucas prob last me another 20 yrs ;) :D :D :D I dont see any dramas with building your own mate plenty of ppl have had a crack at it in the past ;) with variaing degrees of success ;) :D :D ;D I know an old Bloke overhere that made his on and it worked a treat ;) ;D ;D 8)
It sounds like you have it pretty much nutted out how your gonna sett it up and your experiance on the Ats you had makes all the differance ;) ;D 8)
??? How come you sold the Ats ??? :o :'( I know the feeling mate :( :'( :'( >:( With my gear You would have pry it out of me hands after im dead these days mate ;) :D :D ;D ;D I dont let go of any of my gear these days Ill loan it to someone but I Wont Sell it I went through lossing alota gear when i was about 20 and it aint gonna happen again ;) ;D ;D
Good luck Mate ;) ;D ;D ;D as if you will need it with access to a workshop like that and a boss willing to give you a fair shake ;) :D ;D ;D ;D
Reguards Chris
Tracy,good project,after I retire I may build a swinger to make it a complete set of built mills circle .band and swing.I like the idea of an electric motor,they themselves can tilt horz. or vert.you just need belts and an arbor.The hardest thing for my old brain to comprehend is where to put the pivot point,so the cuts intersect.Mayby you could document everything with pictures as you build and have plans you could sell.Full speed ahead keep us posted Tracy.Frank C.
There is a man in Oregon that makes carbide tooth blades. If you call Gary at LInn Lumber Co. he'll probley give you his name & no.
By buying a blade from the captain, you are supporting your membership and the forum at the same time. :)
cheyenne I edited your post, not because you are posting about an alternative place to buy a blade, but because you are posting someone elses personal information which is not allowed on the forum
https://forestryforum.com/disclaimer.htm
Sorry: I have a twin blade mill & would be happy to buy all my blades from Captain 8) How do I go about it. Cheyenne
I figured it out thanks again.Cheyenne
Thanks for the input guys. The gear box is a Comer made in Italy I think. The case is aluminum, and has 1 inch in and output shafts. Have not got it yet. Bought it on Ebay last week for 150.00 Never been used. I opted for a gear box so I do not have to flip that heavy electric motor back and forth. Plus I can stuff a gas engine on top of it at a later date. I may build the center unit out of aluminum and the tracks steel....
???
Once I pick up a blade I can start goin for it. 8) Gonna go 10inch. ;D Similar look and function to a WPF Im thinking. Spent alot of hours putting ideas on paper thus far.
I barrowed the money for the ATS, times got tough. I had to sell it. What an awesome mill....If I can build this for a fairly low cost, I can keep it forever..
Tracy
Tinman,
Woodsman Sawmill in Eastern Oregon has some type of blades.
The Dangerous Dan design is cool because it does not use a gearbox, thereby getting the deepest cut possible only limited by your blade hub size.
I have thought about a swing as well, a 180 degree version.
You might also get the free DVD from Brand X for some info. That thing cuts like crazy.
I saved these some time ago on the Firegass design.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15434/firebassswinger.jpg)
Did you see that Timber Champ sawmill for sale on Craigslist down by you recently?
Like a MD design, I am wondering who bought it.
Best of luck on the build.
How's it goin Tracy,
I just happened to buy Steve's ATS about a month ago. It has a new home in LA were it is a little warmer. Haven't
had much of a chance to use it yet only 1- 20ft oak too much other stuff going on, maybe this weekend, a friend has
an oak that was taken down so i'll try to setup Friday.
Albert
Albert
Congrats on the mill!!!! your gonna love that thing, I know i did. How many hours on the engine?? Did he sell you the slabber with it?
Scrout
I will know more when I get the gearbox. I'm sure its at least 4 inches thick. Still shouldn't have any trouble getting a hair over 10 inches. The motor I have is DanG heavy, would rather not have to swing it. So far my plans are to mount the motor directly above the gear box so that I can swing in both directions. I Didn't see the mill on craigs list. Where are you located??
Tracy
I would pay a reasonable amount for some plans, next winter of course. 8)
I better start taking notes. ;D ;D
I would be happy to share what I know about building a swingmill. It's the least I could do to return some of my expertise in trade for what I've learned from other members who shared their's. This will be fun.
Start by purchasing a blade. It's a good motivator. Hang it on the wall and it will just keep beggin you to hurry up... ;D
Yes buy from Captain. He has some good input also.
I would consider still using a gearbox design even though you are going to go electric. The gearbox is not that difficult to do if you go by my design. There are issues about the guard if you use DangerDAns tilt motor design.
This weekend I got to teach my youngest brother to run my mill. about 2 hours and he had a pile of 50 2x4s. Not bad for his first time. He's got the bug BAD now. :D
Firebass
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15143/firebass_swingmill11%7E0.jpg)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQ1oCsizrMQ
Firebass
Thanks for the input. I like your mill, looks similar to what I have in my mind so far. What blade are you running? Also what are you using to raise and lower the center unit?
Tracy
I used a gearbox I had in my junk pile that just happened to be the right ratio. It moves the carriage up/down 1 1/4" per 4 rotations of the handle. My machine is all steel so it's fairly heavy but its no problem to lift it. I used #60 Chain and sprockets I purchased from surplus center. They have everything you need at the best price you'll find anywhere. I'm using a 5 tooth 8" (21 1/2" Diameter) lucas blade. I wouldn't be afraid at all to run a 10" Peterson Blade. To do this on my machine I would have to lengthen the shaft that the saw mounts to, change Pulleys to lower RPM and make the guard larger. Personally I am a hobby miller so the 8" cuts everything I'll ever need just fine so I dont really see the need in the added cost to go 10". I can cut up-to a 8" x 16" Beam without moving the log. Some I've read say that the bigger the blade the more you need to worry about blade tension. I've been using the same blade for 3 years roughly 15,000 BF of lumber and it hasn't lost its tension yet and only a few sets of carbides.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15143/Firebass_Chain.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15143/Lift.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15143/Steves_Mill_012.jpg)
Enjoy your build
Firebass
Firebass, did you make any drawings of your build? How about some better pictures of the pivot point?
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15143/Timing_Belt_Drive.jpg)I don't have drawings that would make much since to anyone. The trunions and arbor bearings mount in 1" steel plate machined to accept the pivot shaft and saw arbor bearings. The pivot is 1.5 diameter welded to the end plates. The Trunion pivits in Bronze Bushings and housing shown. The Gear box you have dictates how wide to make the 1" plates. The 2 outer sandwich plates both screw to the 1" plates using 3/8" Flat head screws for Clearance.
Extra Note:
Pay close attention to Rotation arrows on colored picture. If going with a gas engine this is the way your gear box needs to be configured. Some are oppisite rotation gearbox's. The purple disk is the drive pully.
Saw Shaft is driven with 2" wide Timing Belt
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15143/Vee_Belt_Drive.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15143/Rotation_Carraige_Top_View.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15143/Rotation_Carriage_less_top.jpg)
How wide is that track, Firebass?
I have a 48 inch wide track and think I could just make another cutter head with a swing saw. But I am thinking out loud now. I suppose it needs to be wider than that to account for the motor and swing machinery. So maybe 48" would only be wide enough for a small log. Scratch that.
How big a log can you cut Firebass?
60" log with some limitations. Like the opening cut would have to take off a good sized flitch first. 78 1/2 Inchs between post.
Firebass
I was planning to put my gearbox directly above the saw arbor, So the saw shaft and the gearbox output line up. Then use a high torque coupling to tie the two together (2 piece or a chain coupling) Mcmaster Carr sells them. Then I plan to run 3 groove pulleys on motor output and gearbox input....I like the way you built yours, makes sense. Do you think #35 or #40 chain would be big enough. My center unit may be lighter because I plan to go with mostly aluminum.
Tracy
I think 35 might be a bit stretchy on my machine but on a light weight machine it could work. I think I could of used #40 on mine with satisfactory results. When I built my swingmill I had no idea of the torque that the blade would transmit to the main shaft so I decided to make the swing frame around a saw drive shaft I felt comfortable with instead of designing the saw drive shaft according to the gearbox. By doing this I feel I never have to worry about a broken saw arbor. Which could be catastrophic. I've heard of a owner of a $%^&* mill breaking a saw arbor before. I think they use about a 1" diameter saw arbor. I use a 1 15/16"... Way overkill but it wont ever break.
Firebass
Firebass, using this picture
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15143/Rotation_Carriage_less_top.jpg)
Where is the actual rotation point on your design? At the gray areas next to the long rails, or at the outer blue squares?
Did you build an type of adjustment points in to adjust the blade up or down, left or right, or the yaw of the blade?
Firebass
You can buy couplings that allow you to mate two different size shafts. I was thinking I would go bigger on the arbor for the same reason you just stated. It would really suck if the arbor ever failed :o. Maybe 1.25 or 1.5 inch shaft . Nothing wrong with overbuilding. Now if that DanG gear box would get here i could get started building. Still doing some leg work on blades.
Tracy
Those couplings are the best. What are you planing for shaft bearings? I thougt maybe tapered roller bearings would work in your case.
Quote from: Radar67 on February 04, 2009, 10:37:52 PM
Firebass, using this picture
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15143/Rotation_Carriage_less_top.jpg)
Where is the actual rotation point on your design? At the gray areas next to the long rails, or at the outer blue squares?
Did you build an type of adjustment points in to adjust the blade up or down, left or right, or the yaw of the blade?
All the blue rotates. welded to the blue ends there is a 1 1/2 shaft that is the main trunnion. The gray area is fixed with bronze bushings pressed inside of the steel tube welded to the frame (Grease Zert). I use shims on the cross rollers for left right vertical blade adjustment. I use the up-down chain for adjustment front to rear horizontal plain. Then I have a adjustment on my tilting mechancsim that lets me adjust the 90 degree rotation. Also on the 90 degree rotation I have a adjustment that lets me adjust simotaniously both horizontal and vertical indexes without lossing the exact 90 degree rotation. This works great for setting up to double cut. I started without this adjustment and it was just to difficult to get it tuned up by setting both rotation indexes.
In the picture below the green is the latch, red is the 90 degree swing adjustment and the yellow adjust simotainiously the vertical/horizontal index plain.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15143/Rotation_Latch_1.jpg)
Firebass
You think tapered roller bearings are the way to go? Was originally thinking just a quality 2 hole mounted flange bearing mounted directly above where the saw bolts on, and then the bearing in the gear box would be the support on the other end. Tapered roller would be more money I assume.
Tracy
I'm not a big fan of block bearings for precision use. Just make it hefty enough that your confident your not going to shear off a saw arbor :o Your life is at stake.
Tracy,I like the firebass carrage it seems much more stable than the factory setup,no spring.To move the saw up and down what if you got the setworks off an old handset circular mill.Insted of the gears on the set shaft rap lets say 3/8 wire cable to four corners with an adjustable eye bolt on each corner.Set the pin in the quadrant one pull up an inch or whatever you set it for.Down twist the "D" handle and ratchet down.Have a look at one and you'll see what I'am talking about.Frank C.
FireBass
If i go with chain couplings I can run a bigger arbor, even though the gearbox shaft is one inch. You can mix and match to a certain degree. 1 inch to 1 5/8, I believe from Mcmaster carr. My buddy on the other side of the wall who has been a machinist for 22 years is gonna help me with the arbor.. ;D Burdens sells the coupling, but they only rate them for 500 rpm????
Tracy
I just knew Tracy would be back in swing sometime ;D
In reference to the arbor size, Steve's (Firebass) design allows a more substantial arbor size than simply adapting the outshaft of an existing gearbox.
When I build my NEW swingmill (hopefully this summer/fall, need a building to put in in first ::)) I am going to use Steve's design principles and separate the gearbox and the saw arbor. I had the concept in mind before he built his mill, but he beat me to it :)
Good luck on your design and I'll help any way that I can. Now to just convince the wife to let me buy and endmill and lathe with some tax return money. ;D
Captain
Captain
How are ya? You knew I would come back? ;D Still trying to round up a blade, funds are in short supply these days so Im trying to shop around some. Got any smokin deals on 8 or 10 inch blades (Used?) Been eye balling baileys selection of Lucas blades. Seems to me there was some talk about Lucas blade not being able to take full depth cuts in harder woods???? I got a local guy here in Grants Pass that may be able to get me a tipped blade for a reasonable price, although he hasnt yet called me back..
Tracy
Tinman, been away from the computer but it has 79 hrs now only 71 when I picked it up. Working on putting some pics
up but seems that I am a little challanged when it comes to computers.
Albert
Hey Albert
That's still pretty low hours. I think it only had around 30 when I sold it to Steve. Cant wait to see pics of what your doing with it.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13273/box_1.jpg)
Here is a picture of the gearbox for my mill, just got it in the mail today. It is supposed to be a 1:1 buts its actually 1:1.5
Should work fine anyhow.
Tracy
Nice looking gearbox. I used a 1 .35 : 1 Gear box. Heres a spread sheet that I came up with when I was in your shoes that might be some help. You can change the numbers according to your specs. Because you have a 1.15:1 Gearbox you will be over speed on the saw blade unless you put a larger driven pulley on the input to the gearbox. Check that you have clearance for the pulley and belt when your in the "blade Vertical position" Nothing should be above in the area the blade cut depth (8 1/2"). In the data I change the pulley from what I used (3.95") to a 5" (what you would need), it could be to big. Take a look at the previously posted colored picture. On the Grey gearbox input pulley you'll see what I mean. I Suggest using a Jackshaft then you can change the ratio there. I run around 2000 Blade RPM . Captain has some good input on recommending RPM. Depending on what you get.
Below is the clutch I use.
PM me if you would like this in a excel spread sheet where you can change numbers to see results.
Motor RPM 2800 RPM
Motor Pully 3.95 Outside Diameter
Gear Box Input Pully 5 Outside Diameter
Gear Box Reduction 1.15 :1 Ratio
Gear Box Out Pully To JACKSHAFT 24 Teeth 2" TIMING BELT
Saw Arbor Pully JACKSHFT 24 Teeth 2" TIMING BELT
saw diameter 21.5 Inchs
Saw circumfrence 5.6287 Feet
Saw RPM 1923.478261 RPM
Rim Speed 10826.68209 Feet Per Minute
Saw Shaft Torque 68.26175407 Foot Lbs
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15143/BLM_Clutch_1-800-268-4295_1.jpg)
Firebass
I can't find any fault with those numbers....
Captain
Firebass
Im going electric to start with. The motor turns at 1725 rpm. It should be pretty easy to gear since the motor rpm is close to the blade rpm...
Quote from: TinMan on February 10, 2009, 09:14:14 PM
Firebass
Im going electric to start with. The motor turns at 1725 rpm. It should be pretty easy to gear since the motor rpm is close to the blade rpm...
I forgot you were going electric. sounds good.
Looks like ya got a good start Tracy ;D
Keep the pic comin' ;)
Got some new pics ;D ;D ;D
This is my prototype swing unit. Once I get all the bugs worked out it will probably end being made out of 1/4 or 3/8 steel, this one is .160 aluminum. These pieces were all cut on our CNC plasma cutter. It took me about four hours to draw the parts on Cad, cut bend and weld. If all goes well, I wont have to redraw anything when I go to make the finished one. there is plenty of room behind and in front of the blade to mount riving knives. Im thinkin this bad boy will swing both ways, hence the cutout around the input on the gearbox. I plan to mount the motor directly above the pivot point, maybe 12 inches up and have vertical guards on either side. 8) 8)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13273/P2120057swing2.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13273/P2120050swing1.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13273/P2120059swing4.jpg)
Nice! At this rate you'll have it finished by the end of the month. ;)
:D :D :D
I doubt it, But Im havin fun. 8) 8) 8) 8)
I too am building a swinger, as time permits! To mount the blade to the ahorbor shat, I used a chain sprocket. I milled off the teeth, Faced it and bored out enough from the center, for a bolt and lock washer to be screwed into the shaft. I figured why reinvent the wheel, these come tested for straightness, ballance and weld strength. The one I used is 3/8 thick on the flat, fits a 2" shaft with a key way. I would love you for ever if, I you would email me the cad design for yours. Ricky
Firecord
I like your idea, Can you post a pic or two ;D I would love to share my cad drawing, but i should make sure its gonna work first. Still need my blade. Then I need to start building the carriage that the swing unit rides in... Should know by then if its even close. How far along are you on your mill??? What blade are you running?
Tracy
Yes I can get some pictures, I will be off monday so if time permits i will run out to the land and get some.
Quote from: Firebass on February 04, 2009, 12:40:28 AM
I'm using a 5 tooth 8" (21 1/2" Diameter) lucas blade. I wouldn't be afraid at all to run a 10" Peterson Blade. To do this on my machine I would have to lengthen the shaft that the saw mounts to, change Pulleys to lower RPM and make the guard larger.
What type of length change would you make for the 10 cut blade? How much would you reduce the pulleys and which would you reduce?
You also mentioned using tapered roller bearing (saw arbor and shaft), with a clip? Do you have a part number or a supplier you could list?
I'm looking hard at this for a future build, got to catch some other stuff up first and have a few other wants to pursue. :)
Quote from: firecord on February 13, 2009, 07:50:28 AM
I milled off the teeth, Faced it and bored out enough from the center, for a bolt and lock washer to be screwed into the shaft.
Here is a link you want to read. https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,17100.msg246207.html#msg246207 It is the account of Dangerous-Dan building his homemade swingmill and it is full of pictures and specs. There are issues concerning mounting the plate to the shaft. If I remember right DD welded only the outside of the shaft to the plate after beveling. After the bolt and lock washer, are you welding the sprocket to a 4031 steel shaft?
One of the guys I work with has been a machinist for 22 years. I believe he spent a good deal of that time working in a sawmill. He knows a thing or two.. His idea for me was a machined hub maybe 1.5 to 1.75 inches in length with a oversize shaft (4 Thou) in it. Gotta heat the hub first to get the shaft in. It wont come apart? I asked him.... OHHH no. Im thinkin a threaded hole in the bottom of that shaft similar to what firecord has done, and maybe a setscrew or two. Im not so sure welding on a shaft like this is a good Idea.. I cant be sure that I got all that right, but he obviously knows what he is doing, and I trust his judgment. Gonna post some pics here in a bit, took some more today ;D ;D
Here is some pics of today's progress. :) This is the carriage that the swing unit rides in. It will have a roller on every corner, two vertical blade guards and of course a 10 hp elec. motor right in the middle. The center will swing on 2 or 4 hole 3/4 inch mounted bearing.. 8)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13273/P2130056carriage2.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13273/P2130055carriage1.jpg)
Here is pic of our CNC plasma too
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13273/P2130059plasma.jpg)
Sure nice to have a good shop to work in not everything proped up on milk crates,thanks for the day by days.Frank C.
Propped up on milk crates OUTSIDE :D
Captain
Gday
Nice work its coming together well Mate keep it up ;) ;D ;D 8) 8) theres nothing like working in natures workshop apart from when its dusty ,freezing ,raining or blowing a bloody gale out side and thats when you usualy have to do it ;) :D :D :D ;) ;D
Chris
Your Swing Frame looks great. I like the internal gussets. I don't mean to be a critic but theres a few things that I see that might or might-not be a concern. Consider "Bounce" I know that all the commercial units are made to be light. They use minimum sized mechanical components. I've learned that there is a ton of stress on the swing carriage when you are at full power and feed. I get a little bounce in the swing frame if I am really pushing it. With this in mind I notice you are using 1" pivots on your swing frame. It dosnt take much torque to deflect a 1" shaft.
This is what I used for my saw arbor. Notice the hub is pressed on from the opposite side so there no way that it can come off. I don't recommend anyone welding a hub to a shaft for a saw arbor. Welding on high carbon steel causes it to become hard and brittle. Again I don't mean to be critical I just want you all to recognize the danger that you could loose your life over if a failure such as a broken saw arbor was to occur.
One more note. The screws for mounting the lucas saw blade are metric and very, very, special grade (Grade 12 or better). They are of a grade that is like head bolts on a engine block. Don't substitute for what's in the bolt bin.
;)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15143/arbor.jpg)
Firebass
Actually they are only 3/4". The two parts are so close together I figured that would be more than enough. Almost like it would shear off before it would deflect. But Im no expert. This is why its all tack welded still :D :D. There aint nothing I cant change. Will the extra weight help stop bounce or the other way around??? I remember my ATS would bounce pretty good cuttin vertical sometimes.
Anyone have any ideas on carriage rollers? Remember, Im trying to cut cost where I can? Was thinking some track wheels from grainger, you can get a 4" v-groove wheel for around 10.00 each. However they seem a bit large??? Probably just in the front and some sort of UHMW slide in the back with leveling studs for adjustment purposes.
I may be mistaken but the blades are mounted with countersunk holes so they will be flush on the bottom and can pass over the log their full diameter.Any bolts or nuts to hold the flange on would be in the way.A forged auto rear axle with the flange machined to center the blade and drilled and tapped for the special screws would probibly work better as it is one piece and can't fall off.Frank C.
Quote from: bandmiller2 on February 14, 2009, 02:59:38 PM
I may be mistaken but the blades are mounted with countersunk holes so they will be flush on the bottom and can pass over the log their full diameter.Any bolts or nuts to hold the flange on would be in the way.A forged auto rear axle with the flange machined to center the blade and drilled and tapped for the special screws would probibly work better as it is one piece and can't fall off.Frank C.
Hey thats a good one :) Forged axles are made of good quality steel, I believe they would work great for a swing mill saw arbor. If I make another mill I would use your idea.
Tinman, I used aluminum wheels I made from some scrap. I used 2 20mm bearings machined in the wheel. then I just made some bosses that welded to the frame with the 20mm hole for a axle to go thru. I think you can get 3/4 bearings too. The thing I like about the alumimum is that it has nearly no friction yet it is easy to roll. In fact if you don't set the brake the mill will move from the wind. Nylon or UHMW would work ok but would not roll as easy. Also the area where the trolley meets the 3" angle Iron has a very small cross section(this is good). This keeps the area where chips may build up to a minimum. If you use V wheels you'll have to make some type of rail cleaning system so the chip don't get under the rollers.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15143/Trolly_Wheels.jpg)
Is that a plasma cnc you have there? I just added a dynatorch cnc plasma to my shop. What a cool tool!!! Don't know how we ever got by without it.
Firebass
Yes its a Esab cnc plasma. I cut some 36" x 308" .125 alum. a couple of weeks ago for some 24 ft long fuel tanks that we built. Im still learning to use it, but am rapidly falling in love with it. ;D ;D ;D ;D I made those little gussets on my swing frame in about 10 minutes.
When I first started fabricating steel in the early 70s my father owned a Wards brand arc welder, We would turn up to full amps to use as a crude cutting torch to cut steel. Then we would spend twice that the time it took to cut it to finish grind to a size. Now I draw it on the computer and tell it to "print" and presto, cuts it out so fast and accurate you don't even have to grind it. My how things have changed. Makes you wonder how many people lost jobs to robots in industry.
I went to the shop last night to take photos, DanG cammera batteries were dead. As for my flange, It was not a welded hub! It is a solid casting, I am no engineer but I dont fear it being the weak link. As Fierbass stated I chose the wrong bolts!! I did not buy the bolts from the blade supplier, I bought them local, {Grade 8} I will upgrade bolts before I use it!!! I will get photos this week.
Woodbowl
I have read that several times, it and Firebass's original few postings. I was building a band mill untill I saw these two guys! Scrapped the original and started over.
I have everything I need to finish except time. I have 2 - 10 hp 3ph motors, and an 18 hp diesel engine. I just have not decided which way to go. Yes I have 3ph electricity "HA HA HA" What can I say, my 10 acres resides in a drained out oil field, the area grid was designed for 3 phase.
Firecord
Them DanG batteries always go dead at the wrong time huh ::) Good luck on the build. I think in your situation I would go with the 10 hp electric, Or you could even trade up and put a 15 on it. Got my 10 for fifty bucks. Will the mill be mostly stationary??
Worked on my mill again today. Got the swing unit swingin and a good start on the mechanics of the swing handle. It works just need to fine tune my design a little. Think I got it figured so it will swing 180. Also started piecing together a mount that the motor rides on. I feel like I made pretty good progress today 8) 8) Gettin excited. I will post some more pics tomorrow, forgot the DanG camera today.
Tracy
Wondering if you missed this Firebass?
Quote from: Radar67 on February 13, 2009, 08:23:24 PM
Quote from: Firebass on February 04, 2009, 12:40:28 AM
I'm using a 5 tooth 8" (21 1/2" Diameter) lucas blade. I wouldn't be afraid at all to run a 10" Peterson Blade. To do this on my machine I would have to lengthen the shaft that the saw mounts to, change Pulleys to lower RPM and make the guard larger.
What type of length change would you make for the 10 cut blade? How much would you reduce the pulleys and which would you reduce?
You also mentioned using tapered roller bearing (saw arbor and shaft), with a clip? Do you have a part number or a supplier you could list?
I'm looking hard at this for a future build, got to catch some other stuff up first and have a few other wants to pursue. :)
I really admire what you guys are doing, But I have a question ? Why swing blades as opposed to a stationary vertical & horizontal bladed mill....Cheyenne
Just a couple of reasons are:
Less required hp and weight.
It may seem complicated but I think a swing mill is actually quite a bit simpler to build.
Usually there is a large saw with a small edger so you have more limited cutting patterns with the two blade.
The swing mill lends itself to manual feed, I wouldn't want to push a two blade saw with a 45 hp volkswagen motor by hand. Or be that close to it. Those things throw some wood around!
There's probably more too it than this though, I'm sure.
Quote from: ErikC on February 17, 2009, 12:29:16 AM
Just a couple of reasons are:
Less required hp and weight.
It may seem complicated but I think a swing mill is actually quite a bit simpler to build.
Usually there is a large saw with a small edger so you have more limited cutting patterns with the two blade.
The swing mill lends itself to manual feed, I wouldn't want to push a two blade saw with a 45 hp volkswagen motor by hand. Or be that close to it. Those things throw some wood around!
There's probably more too it than this though, I'm sure.
+1
Before I got my swing mill I thought that a swinger would be quite complicated but the mechanics of the mill are ingenious but quite simple.
You mentioned not knowing which blade you are going to use; I would definately get a insert tooth blade from Captain. If you want to use a lucas blade I know there is a blade manufacturer that has made insert tooth blades for lucas mills. I believe it is Payne but not sure. I have heard that Peterson blades are better than lucas blades in deep cuts, I dont know if thats true or not but my lucas struggles in deep cuts in red oak and some others. I may see if captain can get me a 6" peterson blade with the lucas bolt pattern. would that even work?
Cheyenne
Like Eric said, they are actually more simple. One blade instead of two. Smaller engine. If ya gotta go down and back anyway you may as well have your saw cuttin both ways, as apposed to two blades doing it all on the push stroke. Im not an expert, but thats how I see it. Less material to build it two. Them blades are not cheap. ;D
Tracy
I haven't used the Lucas blades, but I have 1 of captains 8" cut for the Peterson, and one from Peterson and you can bury either of 'em in anything when they're tuned up right. No problem at all. I have considered getting an insert tooth, but the price held me back. :o
Okie
It seems I heard that or read that somewhere too, about lucas and peterson blades. Its still in the air for me??? Dont really have the money, but I need to keep truckin to keep the project alive. :-\ :-\ Aren't Captains blades all carbide tipped??? Probably the bolt pattern is different on the peterson blades Okie......
Peterson uses a 4 bolt arbor, Lucas a 5 bolt. They are all carbide tipped. They can be re-tipped many, many times. The advantage to insert blades is in not having to re-tip the blade itself, and the inserts themselves are fairly cheap so extras can be kept on hand. I started re-tipping my blades a while ago, they cut fine and it takes me 20 minutes or so. As much trouble to remove the blade almost as re-tip it. Costs 2.00 per tooth.
Quote from: TinMan on February 17, 2009, 01:00:08 AM
Okie
It seems I heard that or read that somewhere too, about lucas and peterson blades. Its still in the air for me??? Dont really have the money, but I need to keep truckin to keep the project alive. :-\ :-\ Aren't Captains blades all carbide tipped??? Probably the bolt pattern is different on the peterson blades Okie......
The bolt pattern is different as ErikC said. Captain did offer at one time the 8" blade with insert teeth I believe. The kerf is thicker though. Broken tips are a pain in the rear for me, The nearest saw shop takes forever sometimes to get my blades to me and sometimes the results arent great. I need to learn to retip myself but the jig is pricey and it just makes me nervous. I usually try to do everything myself but I aint real excited about retipping a blade with tips that turn into bullets if I do it wrong.
I am really impressed with all of you swing builders skills in the shop, truely amazing.
What sold me about swingmills was the following and I think twin blade mills reflect much the same.
*#1 the fact that you only have to handle the log 1 time.
*Every pass down the length of a log and back is making a vertical or horzontal cut so there is no wasted saw carraige movement.
*Turning heavey cants is not nessessary because finished boards are progressively cut from the top to the bottom of the log.
*Stressed logs are releived of stress as you take each board off.
I've only ever used a swingmill. so I cant really compare..
Radar67,
You would need lengthen the saw arbor 2". to convert from a 8" to a 10"
Roughly speaking you would have to slow the speed of the bigger blade to ????(anyone) a 1" larger input pulley on the gearbox would be close or it could be changed at the jack shaft by changing pulley sizes. Either way it totally would depend on your set up. The bearings I used were standard sealed roller bearings with retaining rings. I used 2 "ER 31" bearings which are for a 1 15/16" shaft but it was overkill. McMaster-Carr Part #8090t16.
When I was talking about using tapered roller bearings, I wasn't referring to my setup. Rather I was suggesting that if one was using a short saw arbor directly out of the gearbox one might consider using tapered roller bearings (Wheel Bearings)only because they have a greater load capacity than a standard roller bearing. The nice thing about the McMaster-Carr Catologe is it has a ton of technical data in it. Load capacities and rpm on the bearings is listed in online the cat.
RPM 1650 for a 10" Machine 25 1/2" diameter? Just a guess..... ???
Firebass
Thank Okie
Hope the DanG thing works :D :D
I've no doubts that it will. Looking forward to seeing it progress into the lumber making machine it is destined to be.
Thanks for the confidence builder okie :) :) :) :) :)
Hey Okie, I don't use a jig, just a pair of needlenose pliers and a steady hand. No doubt the jig is easier and less room for error, but I am having good luck doing it this way. The soldering is easy if you already know the basics of brazing and welding. I was worried, as you are, but it's pretty easy to do.
I got a blade now that I knocked 3 teeth off on sumthinorother and I may try it. Hey Tinman, with that fancy shop you got there how come you do'nt use a blade for a pattern and make one? I may be missing something but I'm pretty sure you could do it, then have it hammered and tipped.
Quote from: okie on February 17, 2009, 05:38:37 PM
sumthinorother
Had to read that about 3 times to figure out what in the heck you were talking about.Guess I couldn't read your okie accent. :D
Thought about makin a blade. Got my hands full makin the mill ;D
I too thought about making my own saw blade but I drew the line though when the german steel used was so exotic I couldn't find a supplier. I decided to leave that one to the nitch saw blade makers. Besides there not that expensive.
I second Okies comment, that soldering new carbides is easy even without a jig. 10 bucks for all new teeth is a deal. and you can saw thousands and thousands of Board feet on a set if you don't hit metal. I use needle nose plyers too.
Firebass
Was gonna post some new pics, but I cant get em to upload. What I was doing before (compressing about 70%) is not working. >:( >:( anyone else havin trouble loadin pics?? Anyhow, got the motor sittin over top of the swing unit. Looks like it will work. Got a 24.6 inch lucas blade coming ;D ;D, and I picked up 10, 4 inch v groove rollers on ebay last night for 36.00 ;D ;D
What do you think it would cost someone to build one considering he had to buy all the parts & pieces.....Cheyenne
Cheyenne
Are you talkin about building a mill or makin your own blade ???
rough guess with new components. $3000.00-$4000.00
Used components I have roughly invested $1500 in my mill
Firebass
must be talkin about the mill.. ::) Duh...... I think I will have less than 1500 in mine. My Powerplant was cheap compared to a small engine, and My boss is a super guy, he is letting me use some of his steel to build it. However I will buy the larger quantities of steel to finish the mill. So far just been piecing it together with whats on hand. Diggin through the cutoffs. Best guy I ever worked for, he really treats us well ;D ;D ;D ;D Firebass your guess sounds about right to me :)
Cheyenne, you thinkin of building one tooo ???
Just the mill I'd get blades from payne....Cheyenne
I'd buy at least the first blade. A blade that is a little warped or out of balance or uneven in any way will give you fits. The mill can give you fits for other reasons as well, track setup, blade to bed adjustments, etc. Might as well know the blade is not the problem. Once everything works, maybe then is the time to try and make blades.
Quote from: ErikC on February 17, 2009, 05:46:15 PM
Quote from: okie on February 17, 2009, 05:38:37 PM
sumthinorother
Had to read that about 3 times to figure out what in the heck you were talking about.Guess I couldn't read your okie accent. :D
Sorry. Guess I'm starting to type like I talk :), Gotta get control of that. I need to try and find a video of blade retipping. If I seen it done I think I could do it, but I'd be flying blind.
Tinman, you are flying right through that mill, I need to come work for your boss :D
I haven't seen it, but Bailey's sells one for Lucas blade re-tipping. It only costs a few bucks if I remember. May help. There's a thread back there somewhere about doing it too. Quite a ways back, last spring maybe? That's what helped me out.
I'll check that out. Thanks Erikc
Tinman,mayby you and the boss could turn a buck.You have the automated machinery,what if you just sold the rotating head part of the swingmill.Person could build his own frame supply his own power,that and some directions.Might be worth some thought when the shop is slow.Frank C.
All right Firebass since you are the master swingmiller teach us how to re-tip the blades.
I've just always sent mine off, I'm on my 4th place as the 1st was realllll slow, the 2nd wasn't bad, and the 3rd was local but the tips didn't stay on and the saw didn't cut well when they were on. So I talked to Jay Brand and he gave me the name of someone in his neighborhood who does it and man they hold up and cut great.
My blades are Pacific Hoe they might be closer to where you live tinman
woodsteach
If you don't have the proper equipment to repair and maintain blades don't even waste your time. Find a good tool grinding shop, it'll be a whole lot cheaper. With the proper equipment it only takes 15 min. to sharpen a blade.....Cheyenne
Cheynne, Sharpening is easy but it is the re-tipping that I'm interested in. I know FB can make a great video of how he does it! I mean he made his own DanG swingmill he can do most anything.
woods
Your right sharpening is easy & so is retiping. "BUT" if you replace two teeth in a blade how are you going to match up the width & diamater without the proper equipment. It can't be done by hand. Factoid, A good diamond cup wheel is in excess of $600.00 I'm all for doing it myself but sometimes it just dosn't make economic sense or the time spent doing it....Cheyenne
Re-tipping my blades takes me 20 minutes and costs 12 dollars. The saw shop is 2 hours each way, 75 dollars to get the blades done. About 1 week wait. That is 8 hours of driving! His are a little better, yes, but mine cut well, the teeth stay on and I can save a whole day+75 bucks. And get a job done instead of having to delay. Makes economic sense to me....
Why not mail the blades. $75 sounds very high, how much per tooth for just sharpening.....Cheyenne
OK , I have all that I can stand. My swing mill is so close to its test run I can almost taste the sawdust. You guys are making me green with envy. If I only had the equipment you have. It has been almost a year since I started. I thought I would be done in a couple of months. Way to busy. When the test day comes will sure put some pics on. Keep up the good work Tinman , enjoy watching progress when all I have is lack.
Just saw you post Cheyenne. They are talking about re tipping (brazing new teeth on).
There is no need to send off a swingblade to sharpen. It is easier than a chainsaw and faster. The $75 is for a complete blade job. If I can do it in my shed for $12 why shouldn't I?
Bandmiller2, I think you have a good idea. If Tinman and his boss built the rotating head for the swingmill I would be at the top of the list to buy one. Great suggestion.
Hoss
Not a reason in the world why you shouldn't. I do all my own blades. I just thought I could save you some time & money....Cheyenne
Thought about about maybe makin some parts and selling them. I better keep pluggin away on this thing. I have high hopes for it. Nice thing about having all the nice automated equipment on hand is it can be produced quickly once you have what you like in the computer. Could cut the cost of making them i guess ;D Sorry guys no pics today, thought I should work for a living. :D
I agree precision ground saw blades are best, but for stubborn-cheap-skate-me, re-tiping a 5 tooth lucas blade with needle nose pliers and a cutting torch make me smile :). There are a few details you must to pay close attention to. #1 is obvious, you have to get the carbide centered on the blade fairly close. You can do this after you've soldered the tooth on if you don't get it right during the initial join by re-heating or re-flowing the silver but make sure you are generous with the silver solder paste and you are not heating any bare metal on or around the carbide. Over heating will cause oxides to form (Blackish burnt looking) and the carbide will just fall off. If you see black or temper colors stop and start over (silver solder paste flux prevents this only if it doesn't get to hot) sand off all oxides (Blackish or temper colors) off, re-flux entire area at least 1" around the area, and slowly heat again. I use a small acid brush to apply the flux. Use only silver solder paste. Silver solder will flow when the metal and carbide just starts to turn a dull red. Anymore heat will ruin the process. A good eye is is necessary to center the carbide but with that said you'll never get it perfect. The end result of carbides that are not centered will be that the kerf width of the cut will be wider than the carbides you are using and or bit marks on the wood where there is a tooth misaligned. #2 after the carbide is on you must finish grind the tooth height (diameter) so that all the teeth are the same outside diameter. Also the carbides outside diameters are not pre-sharpend from the factory . I do this on a bench grinder with a green silicon grinding wheel used for carbide. I use a set of calipers to measure from the center hole of the blade to the outside of the tooth. This is a must otherwise one tooth may do all the work if it's too high. I try to get them all as close to the same as possible. Often there will be one thats .020 taller than the others and I just grind it down to match. I never grind the side of the carbides only the outside diameter(21 1/2")dos'nt have to be perfect. In fact you could acutally go down to nearly 21 1/4" worst case.
Well that pretty well describes how I do it, I will say again the proper amount of heat is critical. I preheat the tip a little and the blade a little first, just a few seconds really, and they just flow together when you put them together and hit the heat on everything. I find the longer I have to hold the tip in exact position the worse job I do. And don't wiggle or let go until it turns black again, or things will slip. The tips being pre-tinned makes it way easier I'm sure. I touch up any excess solder with a flat file and check each tooth, the file won't touch carbide. Then diamond wheel each face to 90 Degrees and same length. I don't get too uptight, but they have to be without a leading corner.
Quote from: HOOF-ER on February 18, 2009, 09:34:26 PM
OK , I have all that I can stand. My swing mill is so close to its test run I can almost taste the sawdust. You guys are making me green with envy. If I only had the equipment you have. It has been almost a year since I started. I thought I would be done in a couple of months. Way to busy. When the test day comes will sure put some pics on. Keep up the good work Tinman , enjoy watching progress when all I have is lack.
Just saw you post Cheyenne. They are talking about re tipping (brazing new teeth on).
Hey there HOOF-ER,
I thought you gave it up. Been wondering if you were still at it. You had a good start last I saw. Tinman might not be the next in the homebuilt swingmill club? Yes, having equipment is cheating... ;)
Firebass
Thanks for the re-tipping instructions I may have to give it a try after all.
woods
Hey guys, trying to post pics from yesterday. Cant get it to work?????? Help :'(
I think I got it.... ::)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13273/P2170059motor.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13273/P2170056motor3.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13273/P2160052motor4.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13273/P2170054motor5.jpg)
Firebass, I never give up, sometimes end up crawling on my hands and knees. I still get there though. :D Have to put scales on it, blade guard and fix the track. Bought some large aluminum I-beams to put some angle iron on. Thought that would be good to go portable with. Maybe wasted money on that thought. This thing is heavy. ;D I have a tendency to overdo something that I build. Guess that because I'm not the engineer. Liked the pics of your brother, has he put his order in for one yet?
Used to know a fella with a small shop that made and repaired industrial carbide tiped saws.Have watched the tipping process you need to make a fixture[can't call them jigs anymore].If you took say a piece of 3" channel iron 3' long.What you want is a bolt that will fit the arbor hole well,or bushing ,put the blade on the bolt.Mark drill and tap two holes one just below the gullet the outher to locate where the tip sits.The whole piece is laid back at about a 30 degree angle from verticle.The blade is spaced out from the bar at the arbor hole and by the screw below the gullet,the bit screw is lower to center the carbide bit.You braze one turn blade and so on.The guy hired girls that had studied jewlery making their little fingers are very dexterous, not like our meathooks.The solder was in the form of a "L" shaped ribbon just the right size she would dip the bottom of the bit in flux the ribbon would stick to that then place on the blade its angle back would hold it in the right position quick torch until solder just melts pull away quick.Oxy-acet torch and small tip needed.The problem with the torch is bottle renting I use a prestolite "B" tank like the plumbers used to use for acet.for oxy i use medical oxygen tanks boath can just be turned in for full.Yes gas is more expensive but you won't use much to do tips.no pictures Frank C.
Hey tinman, don't you have room for 180° swing in there?
Yes I do ;D ;D 8) 8). That was what I had in my head before i started and Its going good so far. The Lucas 10" blade arrives today, and some v groove rollers probably next week sometime. Gettin Closer. 8) 8) 8) 8)
That's going to be a very versitile feature. 8)
What about the pivot adjustment? Will both sides have room to adjust or just one? How will you do it?
I wish there was a "print version" function for SMF. It would save me a lot of colored ink when I print this entire thread once you get your mill going good. 8)
I'm kind of dense at the moment so explain why the need to rotate 180 degrees?
woodsteach
Teach,
I shouldn't even venture a guess because I am swinger-ignorant, but I think it's because it allows you the maximum access to both sides of the log when it's a big one and you need all the help you can get. ???
The vertical cut on a 90 degree swing can't be closer to the left side of the carriage than about 25 inches (on my 8" peterson). It comes within about 5 or 6 inches on the right side. If you could swing 180, Then you'd get that close to both edges. Still couldn't cut a beam wider than twice your cut though. Blade rotation and safety shields are a couple of concerns that would need to be addressed. I can't personally see how it would help all that much, and design would be quite a bit harder I think. But I'd like to see one in action eventually. It might be a lot more valuable addition than I think!!!
With my Brand X it doesn't have a (sp)riving knife (splitter) so I can saw on both sides of the log with no problem. Yes, I can see getting the extra 3 inches but it seems like overkill to me. But I'm willing to learn. ;D
woods
I don't think the riving knife matters to this. You shouldn't cut against the rotation of the blade no matter what way it swings (It will run away, climb, cut you in half or something like that). I think the extra width gained would be more like 20 inches. I agree it may be overkill, even then. We'd both like to see one though. :)
I plan to put riving knives on both ends of the blade. Pivot adjustments will be adjustable stops on both left and right side of swing frame and both front and back. That was one of the things I was going to do next. Making sure nothing is in the way is one challenge on being able to swing both ways. Since my motor is up high and directly in the center it allows me to do just that. I dont really need it but why not try it :) I love a challenge ;D I dont anticipate any major problems with my design yet, Does anyone else.. ??? Got my blade and my v groove rollers today.. 8)
Tracy
When I bought my Peterson they had to ship it from NZ, It was at least a couple months between when I ordered it and received it. You're gonna make one faster than I could buy one!
8) 8)
Eric
I seem to remember the same feeling when I bought my ATS 8. I bought mine from Captain but it still took a while. ;D here are some pics of my newest mill parts
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13273/P2190048blade.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13273/P2190050rollers.jpg)
Tracy
180 swing will make it a little nicer when you have a large log and you want to double cut wide boards. Not because of the wide boards your double cutting but because of the fact that when you cut the excess boards off both sides of the area you are double cutting you can do it without needing to manually align your vertical cut on the right side of the log. On a standard 90 degree swingmill when you are on the right side of a log and swing the blade from horizontal to vertical it moves the blade away from your cut, Because you are swinging the blade away from the log you have to manually re-align the cut. Which is usually only one board so its no big deal. I was hoping someone with one would weight in here because they're may be some other benefits I don't see.
Tinman,
If I'm not mistaken I think there is a logging convention this weekend at the fairgrounds in Salem Oregon. It would be worth your trip if D&L has a mill there again. I went down 3 years ago and watched them demo they' re 10" 180 swing.
It was a worth while trip for me.
I think your right about riving knifes. I don't us them only because I am confident I wont ever let it climb cut and I dont want them in the way. With that said, I think if you do go with the swing 180 there's more possibility of a human error and accidental climb cut. This is because the blade has 2 vertical positions with opposite saw rotations. My thought is after a long day one could mistakenly do a vertical cut with the blade in the wrong vertical position(opposite Blade Rotation) the riving knifes would keep this from happening.
Firebase
Gday
Tinman Thats a Nice Australian Made Saw You Got There Mate ;) ;D ;D 8) 8) They are made only 20 mile away from Me ;);D ;D things are coming along nicely Mate ;) ;D 8) 8) 8)
Reguards Chris
About the blade you just got in. I have the 8" lucas blade, but it doesn't have the same profile. D&L and petersons 10" look different also. Is there an advantage in this style profile?
I forgot to mention, I've got some parts together, blade, gearbox, arbor ect but haven't started building my swingmill yet. You guys go on ahead and build so I can drool a little more, then I will get started. ;D
Ok aren't sawblades supposed to be ROUND! And what's with the extra holes? Someone please explane this blade Please.
woods
Woodsteach
Is an odd looking blade huh? As long as it cuts good ;) Not sure what the holes are for. Im sure someone will fill us in.
Hey Woodbowl, That mill ain't gonna build itself :D :D
Firebass
Thanks for the input on the riving knife issue. Cant get outta town this weekend for the show, to much going on. Still pluggin away on the mill
Tracy
Quote from: Meadows Miller on February 20, 2009, 03:03:32 AM
Gday
Tinman Thats a Nice Australian Made Saw You Got There Mate ;) ;D ;D 8) 8) They are made only 20 mile away from Me ;);D ;D things are coming along nicely Mate ;) ;D 8) 8) 8)
Reguards Chris
I do have to say you guys make nice saw blades down there. What was the brand name? Mine wore off. I was always curious about if Lucas uses the same manufacture for all they're blades.
Gday
Firebass ,Tinman,Woodstech & Woodbowl They are Made by one company Central Saws in Bendigo who are one of the largest TCT Saw manufacturers in Aust Last time i talked to them about 48' headsaws for a mill i was helping out with saw selection about 18 months ago They said they where still supplying Lucas Mills saws ;) ;D
The Holes and the back relief in the saw plate is too Reduce Weight in the rim area of the saw body as we all know saws dont like running in the horzontal all that much ;)
Its all got somthing to do with Gravity I Reckon ;) :D :D ;D ;)
Reguards Chris
Hey guys
Been doing some figuring for my saw shaft. FireBass What kind of shafting did you use for your Arbor and hub. My buddy at work said to use Acraloy, I think ??? Tried to search on Google but didn't really find anything. Maybe I don"t know how to spell it. My boss is gonna let me use his mill at his house to make the shaft. If I stay under 1.5" i can get a tapered roller bearing that is not to wide or tall. Once you get to 1.5" and over the base goes from 4.75"? to 5.375".. Would reduce my cut to less than 10" There is a nice Royersford 1.5" tapered roller on E#@& for 55 bucks. :'( :'( :'( They are taller too. :( Otherwise they run around $140.00. Any input.
Tracy 8) 8)
It's called http://www.pmtsco.com/ACRALLOY.HTM. I used it as well. 4140 Turned Ground And Polished (TGP).. GOOD STUFF.
Only because you asked....I suggest moving over your gearbox and running a separate long saw arbor with roller bearings like I used. It really does work out well. You could then up your shaft size to 1 3/4 shaft and spread out the stress on the bearings and use the snap ring type bearings. It makes a very robust strong swingframe and the gearbox will see far less stress. Take one more look at my design.
Firebass
Thanks FireBass
Do you think is worth losing a little cut depth by using that tapered roller bearing off E#@! Great price, great bearing. He has 34 of them available Cut depth would be around 9.875" instead of 10" Shaft would be 1.5"
Yer thoughts ??? ???
Tracy
Get all you can for cut depth. If you want a 10" capacity you need a minimum of 10 1/4 clearance. Better if it's 10 1/2". I I will post some drawings of my swing carriage so you can take a look. Be right back...
Firebass
FireBass
Really never ruled your design out, just kinda headed in the direction Im going because it seemed like alot less parts and more simple to build. But neither one is really simple. ::) What made you decide to use 1.75 shaft ??? how spendy were those pillow block bearings you used on the arbor??
In the first photo is a drill pattern that is used to mount the trunions, gearbox and arbor bearing blocks
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15143/drill_pattern_swing_box.jpg)
The second print shows a top view of the right trunnion block.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15143/right_trunion.jpg)
Somehow I lost the bearing block print but it's roughly the same concept as the trunnion blocks.
Note: the trunnion block bolts into the lower right four holes on the swing box plates (first print). The 1 3/4 measurement is the swing pivot (trunnion)
Firebass
1 3/4"? I just randomly picked a size smaller than mine. ??? 1 used the biggest shaft I could fit and still get my 8 1/2" clearance. Bearings, Gearbox and pulleys are all the max I could get away with for clearance. It was overkill, The bearings I talk about are here http://www.mcmaster.com part number 8090T17. But I used a sealed bearing instead of the shielded here. Check out available sizes there.
Firebass
Gonna continue on with my original plan, Mounting the the saw directly under the gearbox. Picked up a large 1.5" Type E bearing on Ebay. Should get my shaft coupling Monday. I also got a piece of acralloy for my arbor yesterday. Still pickin away at it ;D
Go for it. I know how it goes when your on a roll. I'm only throwing my suggestions out there for anyone who might find them interesting. I don't mean it, but sometimes my post sound like "Ranger Rick". Sounds like you've got a good plan ;) I bet it will work great.
Firebass
FireBass
I do appreciate your input. And I think your design is every bit as good, Probably better. :) Sometimes you just gotta go for it. ;D ;D Hopefully I will have some new pics to post in the weeks to come...
Tracy
Been Busy working for a living, haven't had much time to work on the swinger ::) ::). Got my arbor bearing and a huge #80 chain sprocket to mill down for the hub. Need to get some help from some of the guys in the shop on getting the arbor made I guess. ;D ;D Gotta get some more pics goin huh? Sorry to keep you guys waiting ;D ;D Also talked to our electrician this week, he is ready to get me wired up when the mill is ready for a test run 8)
There's more moving parts than one might realize when you go to make your own mill. How's Hoof-er's progress going?
Hey FireBass
How ya been?
Getting some machine work done on my hub ;D Been slow going, we are moving into a new place this month. Gonna be caretakers on 80 acres here in southern Oregon for a while. Our shop is only 3 miles away.. 8) 8) 8) We really are gonna be busy for the next 30 days or so. ::) ::) Lots of parts on a sawmill??? smiley_goofy_face smiley_goofy_face.
Thanks for asking Firebass. I am at a stand still. Been doing remodel work so rain or shine, I have been keeping busy. All I need to test run is the blade guard, track and something to lock the saw head. Still have not got a design in mind for that locking mechanism . The weather has been perfect lately and I have the itch to get this thing making some curls. ::)
Good you all are staying busy. We've been lucky enough to keep busy here too but I really feel for the ones struggling threw this mess of an economy. I want to go play on my mill but as long as I've got work in the shop it takes priority... I've had 3 nice 28"x8' fir logs sitting next to the mill since November. Peavey's laying right next to them and gas tank on the mill is full, I just can't get out there to saw them. I think I'm going to have to fit it in.... :)
Firebass
Hi I have been watching the posts on this site for a while, been thinking about making a mill of some sort to replace my 16hp B&S powered chainsaw bar mill that I made 10 years ago to cut beams for some timber frame for my house. It will do the job but very slow for cutting boards & studs etc. I was thinking about a swing blade or two blades at 90 deg to each other, but the trouble seem to be able to find a gearbox and $ that will handle the power required to do the job. I also came up with the idea of using a belt (or 2) to go from the first powered shaft to the other on a two blade saw with a 1/4 twist on it with 4 idler pullies (one spring loaded on the slack side to keep the belt tight) to the second shaft. If it would work I think it would be a lot cheaper than a gearbox! Any one out there ever heard or seen a belt used like this or is it not a good idea?
ps: your mills sound great to bad there so far away from here in Nova Scotia
Later
Hilltop366
WELCOME TO THE FORUM HILLTOP
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I may be misunderstanding you but if you intend on using the 16 hp motor on a swing mill or a double blade dimension mill I think you will be greatly dissappointed. I have a 18 hp on my 6" swing blade and I would love to have 10 more hp on it. Of course I cut all hardwoods, mostly red oak and honey locust so that may be the issue but on the full 6" cut it struggles in the vertical cut and absolutely crawls if I try for 6" in the horizontal, I usually make my 6" horizontal cuts with 2 passes. I would love to lay it into some softer less dense wood and see what it can do. Personally, I think a double blade get up would be easier to make than a swing blade mill. If you opt to try making a swinger, try and find someone that has one and spend some time studying how they work. There aint just a whole lot to mine, but everything has to be just right. There is a double blade mill that sets up alot like a Lucas mill, I beleive its called a Rinu? I posted a video on here when I saw them. As far as power plants and gear boxes, you can find that stuff used at a good price if you look hard enough.
Good luck.
Thanks for the welcome.
I didn't think the 16hp would be enough to run a new mill I was figuring I might use it for a wood splitter.
I figure I would need at least twice that or a little more for a two blade mill. I was looking for ideas and came across one on YouTube called "The woodsman portable sawmill" with a 25hp it seems to work well. I'm a bit surprised to hear that there is a diff between horz and vert cut on your swing mill. Could you try gearing it down a little bit? Had a similar prob when I made my chainsaw mill so I reduced the chain speed with a bigger pulley on the drive sprocket shaft it made quite a difference.
I would be mostly cutting spruce ( from 10" to 24") some of it is windfalls, the sawer at the local mill says there is not much worse sawing than dry spruce. The rest would go in the furnace. I did stick a vid on Youtube of my chainsaw mill if anyone is interisted search "Hilltop366".
I was wondering aprox what rpm or tip speed you run your swingmill blades?
Once again any help would be great.
Use the search feature. There was a thread on here with all the blade speed calculations. Firebass and I were discussing it when started building mine. Gearboxes were also part of the discussion. Search on the Forestry Forum is a powerful tool and can lead to sleepless nights. ;) :D :D
Welcome Hilltop,as far as gear boxes go look into a right angle gear box off a brush hog,their built for abuse.I am not sure it would be heavy enough but old Gravely tractors had gear boxes on their 30" mower decks.Everything on an old Gravely is over engineered.Frank C.
Yep sleepless nights.... Thanks for the tips.
Was reading the thread about which is the best blade lots to learn there, and its nice to see an honest descussion about this stuff without turning into a peeing contest. You don't see alot about blades diving and going off track on the manufacturers adds. I Wonder why? I think I'll do a bit more reading before I start ordering parts.
Here is a little tid bit of usless trivia for you saw fokes: the inserted saw tooth that is still common today is a east coast of Canada invention by Philias Bertrand of St john New Brunswick Pat # CA 48,989 May 20 1895. (source book Great Maritime Inventions 1833-1950)
Its 11:00 I guess I should show up for work.
later
Quote from: Hilltop366 on April 01, 2009, 03:18:46 PM
I also came up with the idea of using a belt (or 2) to go from the first powered shaft to the other on a two blade saw with a 1/4 twist on it with 4 idler pullies (one spring loaded on the slack side to keep the belt tight) to the second shaft.
Any one out there ever heard or seen a belt used like this or is it not a good idea?
Go for it Hilltop. There are lots of time proven applications that use belt twist. Belts are reliable and reasonable in price. Adjustable tension also turns and ordanary belt drive into a clutch if needed. I've been thinking about this for years and I am very surprised that someone has not already built a twist/untwist configuration to "swing the blade" on a swingmill, thus eliminating the gearbox.
Oh, welcome to the forum. ;)
Quote from: woodbowl on April 03, 2009, 11:13:07 PM
Quote from: Hilltop366 on April 01, 2009, 03:18:46 PM
I also came up with the idea of using a belt (or 2) to go from the first powered shaft to the other on a two blade saw with a 1/4 twist on it with 4 idler pullies (one spring loaded on the slack side to keep the belt tight) to the second shaft.
Any one out there ever heard or seen a belt used like this or is it not a good idea?
Go for it Hilltop. There are lots of time proven applications that use belt twist. Belts are reliable and reasonable in price. Adjustable tension also turns and ordanary belt drive into a clutch if needed. I've been thinking about this for years and I am very surprised that someone has not already built a twist/untwist configuration to "swing the blade" on a swingmill, thus eliminating the gearbox.
Oh, welcome to the forum. ;)
I'm thinking that the twist would work if stationary, but I think the swing would throw the belt. Just my $.02 and I aint no belt twist expert :D.
Tinman, you need some rest from real work so you can finish that mill ;D. this is the first mill build that I've been able to read about from the get go and I'm excited about the outcome 8).
Seems to me all my projects I've ever made have dwell times before I manage to complete them. I've found that when you get burnt out or don't have much time to dedicate toward your project it helps to find one little thing that dosent demand too much time that you can do. With some type of goal, try to complete small projects even if they only take 5 minutes and soon you'll soon find a new motivation because you can see light at the end of the tunnel. Most people under estimate the number of pieces and mechanical components it takes to manufacture a piece of equipment. All at once they can be overwhelming. But, IF one has the time and enjoys making things I think a swing mill is a blast to build.
Firebass
Thanks again for all the welcomes and tips.
Using a twist belt on a swing mill would be a little tricky I'm sure.
I have a background in small gas engine repair (25 years) mostly motorcycle & chain-saw with some auto & heavy equipment & welding ........ I know that gear boxes can rob a lot of power just look at any higher performance bike it's got a chain or a belt, so I was also thinking belt would also be more efficient.
It has been a long winter so I've had more mill ideas. I would like to give you guys another to get some feedback if you don,t mind. ( you can laugh as loud as you want)
My current problem is my chain-saw mill is slow and awkward so I don't get much lumber cut for the little time i have to use it.
So I came up with two solutions 1: Faster saw like the swing or two blade mill
2: A slow mill that cuts by it self once log is set in place
For idea # 2 I was thinking of a electric reciprocating saw with carbide teeth maybe a 5 hp 220v motor on it, once the log was dogged in, the saw would cut through it return and reset and make next cut until done and then shut off. A person would only take a few minutes to get the log in place, turn it on and go do something else. A this rate if only cutting a log a day I would get 360 more cut than last year. Ya I know you would have to edge them too.
Hi guys
Just about settled in at our new place. The boss has been pokin at me to get back on the mill ;D. He is now a member on the forum as well. Cant wait for him to post pics of the stuff he is building in the shop. Logging stuff. ;D ;D ;D ;D Might order some steel this week for the mill..... ??? 8) 8)
Gday
And Welcome to the Forum Hilltop ;) ;D 8) 8) 8) I know where your coming from mate ive probobly cut over 100 mbft on the first and second Csm's dad and i had from when i was about 13 They are bloody good on the big sections ;) ;D ;D 8) But as Slow as a Wet week when you get into sawing 2xs ::) :) :( ;) :D :D Dad had plans to build somthing similar to what your thiking about using 2 x 22" inserts ??? :P Before We got the First bandmill when i was about 15 ;D 8) 8)
A good one to look up on youtube is Eco Sagan ;) they are a nice looking little Twin Horizontal circular mill
The trick with doing wide horizontal cuts with circs is not to let the Rpm drop too much (no more then about 5 to 7% ;)) as i can do a full 8" cut no worrys with the 20 hp briggs on my lucas in pine you just have to Go Slow ;) but i usually jus do 2 passes as i find it quicker and easyer pluss you dont have to worry about heating the body of the the saw up ;) ;D 8) as i reckon that alot off the sawdust drops out of the gullet before it exits the cut on the wide ones ;)
Tinman its good to hear you boss is giving you a ribing about getting it finnished Mate ;) :D :D ;D ;) Anyway whats his user name ??? and I dont reckon itll be long till uou have it running Mate ;) ;D 8) 8) 8)
Reguards Chris
Quote from: okie on April 01, 2009, 03:48:37 PM
WELCOME TO THE FORUM HILLTOP
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I may be misunderstanding you but if you intend on using the 16 hp motor on a swing mill or a double blade dimension mill I think you will be greatly dissappointed. I have a 18 hp on my 6" swing blade and I would love to have 10 more hp on it. Of course I cut all hardwoods, mostly red oak and honey locust so that may be the issue but on the full 6" cut it struggles in the vertical cut and absolutely crawls if I try for 6" in the horizontal, I usually make my 6" horizontal cuts with 2 passes. I would love to lay it into some softer less dense wood and see what it can do. Personally, I think a double blade get up would be easier to make than a swing blade mill. If you opt to try making a swinger, try and find someone that has one and spend some time studying how they work. There aint just a whole lot to mine, but everything has to be just right. There is a double blade mill that sets up alot like a Lucas mill, I beleive its called a Rinu? I posted a video on here when I saw them. As far as power plants and gear boxes, you can find that stuff used at a good price if you look hard enough.
Good luck.
Here is a link to the Rimu saw I was referring to.
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,34378.0.html
Chris
his user name is rigginrat97526. You will bee seeing pics of his shop built logging toys soon. 8) 8) 8) 8)
Tracy
Okie
Thanks for the link the Rimu is a real nice saw.I also went to their web site lots of great pics there. It would be nice if you could lift the vertical blade out of the way to double cut with the horz. blade for wider lumber. I guess that would be an advantage to a swinger.
Chris
Thanks for all the info I think I seen the Eco Sagan before but had no luck this time, it could just be me.
does anyone have a single source or web blog that shows how they built their mill? I too want to build a swing blade mill. I have some big douglas fir on my place that Ai want to be able to mill, one tree is about 220 ft tall and 7+ ft in diameter at breast height. Plus i have alot of smaller stuff to mess with. I have a granberg mill set up for my chain saw, it cuts nice boards, but is painfully slow. there are some good pictures on this post, thanks to all who have given input on this subject!!
Maybe we can figure out some way to get this country out of the mess we are in by the grass roots efforts of the common folk in developing real goods and manufacturing abilities on a local scale. Kind of how this country was made great in the first place!
Hilltop you can always use jack shafts instead of gerboxes saves weigt and movinparts in so far as the belts a lot of line shaft mills twisted the flat belts back in the day to make them do what they wanted them to
Chico
Chico I think we are on the same train there. I'm still looking for a engine, something with lots of torque thinking 4 cyl diesel like VW jetta or an Isuzu from a small GM truck.
Once I get an engine I can start the layout an figure out what parts I need to order like: bearings, shafts and pulleys etc.
Another idea I'm thinking of is a way to raise the vertical blade up out of the way to do double cuts on a cant to get wider lumber (this seem to be the major complaint of the two blade or swing saws).
Hilltop
Electric motors can be heavy to rotate but an arbor mounted right on the shaft would eliminate alot of rigging, 3 phase more the better.Find its pivot point.A three point 3 phase PTO driven gen.would be handy not only for milling but to run heavy duty plainers jointers est.Only throwing ideas out there.Frank C.
Hilltop, the Mobile Dimension Saw uses v-belts with quarter twist to run the edger blades. The main blade runs off of 6 belts directly from the engine, and the main blade's shaft doubles as a jack shaft to run the edgers via another 6 belts. This system works extremely well, so you might want to borrow some ideas from it.
I'm fairly familiar with both the Lucas and Peterson mills, and have been wondering about something. In order to double cut with the Peterson, you have to take the blade guard off. The guard on the Lucas can't be removed, so you cannot double cut without turning the saw head around. What I wonder is, why not make the guard movable, so you could just swing it to the other side for double cutting? :P
Dan,I've wondered about that too its probibly liability in case someone left it in the wrong position.I'am sure it could be failsafed but that would complicate a simple mill and drive up the price.Liability is real and costly and gives night sweats to those who build sawmills.
Gday
I reckon thats the main reason also with the lucas the motors mounted low in the frame so double cutting is imposible after about 2" even after abit of workshop trickery on the guards ;) :D Probobly to stop ppl trying ;) Ive only herd of acouple of accidents with swingers usually through stupididty in modifying somthing or the other being A Idiot and not bolting the stops in when using the std tracks :o :) ::) ::)Some Mothers Do Ave Em and you cant Idiot Proof Anything ;) :D :D :D
Reguards Chris
Where is the TinMan I have been waiting to see how his mill is coming along.
Anyone know?
Gday
Hilltop Its been about two months hopefully Tinmans just been a little buisy Mate ;) I know time can get away from you real quick :o :) ::) ;) :D :D
Reguards Chris