I REALLY need professional help

[Cord-n-8R]

OK, I,m going to try not to make this too long, but we'll see what happens... I know I sometimes I tend to over-explain myself but I just want to make things as clear and concise as possible.  So, I've been visiting this site for a couple months now (with increasing frequency) and now I'm an addict ;D. I found a few other sites but this is by far the most informative and least B.S. site I've found, thank you. (Add that last line to the 'Thank the Moderators' thread). I started out searching the web for some good information on how I could manage my property in order to either produce a little income to help offset some of my carrying costs or, find a way to reduce those costs through tax savings or whatever other means might be possible. I've been trying to garner as much information as I can before posting my own questions by reading through alot of the threads (some of which go back a few years and usually have links to some other interesting threads to get me off on a tangent) in order to gain at least a little knowledge and learn some of the forestry lingo so I don't appear too dumb. I'm not connected to the forestry or logging business in any way although I have been cutting/burning wood for about 25 yrs. so I do have a little working knowledge in the woods and can tell you it's enough to be able to consider working in the woods more 'enjoyment' than 'work'.

My situation is that about 8 yrs. ago my wife and I bought an 80 ac. property in the far north-central part of the U.P.. Basically we just wanted to 'have a place to go', a place for the family to enjoy the outdoors, and maybe spend a good part of our retirement there. The U.P. seemed logical because we love it up there and that's where we've spent most of our vacation time since the early 90's. Property is/was relatively cheap compared to most of WI and we knew land wasn't going to get any cheaper because 'they ain't makin' any more of the stuff' :P.  It's a great piece of recreational property, very unique and rather diverse with a variety of terrain including everything from lowland swamp to big bluffs and rock outcroppings. There is quite a combination of deciduous and conifer tree species and a variety of age classes.

One of the first things we did was to have the county DNR forester come out to give us her impression of the property and offer any management advise, which led us to seek out a consulting forester to write a forest management plan. We had consultations with 2-3 different foresters before contracting with the one that actually wrote our plan. I've recently been reviewing and comparing the Co. forester's initial report with the forest management plan and realize there is some conflicting information and recommendations. Unfortunately that DNR forester moved on to another state job and the forester we contracted with moved into a corporate job so we can't clarify or corroborate any of this with them. (Incidentally, the plan was actually written by an associate of the consulting forester whom we never met or had a chance to speak with,,, I've been meaning to see if I can locate him.) 

At this point I'm wondering if it's a good idea to review and/or update my management plan... although this would be another added cost, and added cost is just what I'm trying to avoid. The problem is that my management plan's recommendations suggest waiting until 2015 to do any kind of harvest in order to allow time for some components to increase and provide an adequate volume of timber to make a harvest more economically viable. I assume this is because of the remoteness of the property, the ruggedness of the terrain, and distance a logger would need to haul equipment and the product. On the other hand, the plan descriptions state that the shorter lived species component (aspen,white birch) is mature to overmature and in a state of decline (I question this because I see quite a variety of sizes of these species). There are also alot of trees that just seem to fall (uproot) and I hate to see them just lying or hanging there going to waste :'(. I make firewood out of what I can and I've dragged some whole logs out hoping to use them to build a woodshed or other small outbuilding, but there's too many that I don't have the equipment or expertise to safely handle myself. For example, there's one large white pine, probably 24+'' dia. that came down(uprooted) last summer. It's right up one of the trails close to camp, maybe 30 yds. off the trail up a fairly (not too) steep slope and hung up. I'm either too scared or too smart  :-\ :-[ to try and touch it, but it sure seems like a shame to leave it there as I'm sure it must have some value... I really have no idea, but it could just be worth enough to pay part of my taxes for a year(???) if I kew how to market it.

I've looked into a couple of tax incentive programs offered in the state of MI;
1) CFL, where the tax is $1.20 per ac., but the land must be open to public access for fishing, hunting, hiking, etc.. ( Just not sure if I'm too keen on the public access issue because having a place to hunt was a big part of my reason for buying land, although I'm still trying to work through something on that, which I could use some help with. ;))
2) QFP, which relieves you of the local schools portion of tax. I wasted $200  :'( :'( :'( applying for that last year only to learn that my property wasn't eligible because it has a structure on it, unless I was to divide the property into seperate parcels (this P'd me off because rather than giving me this information in time to consider splitting the acreage, they just let it ride and then sent my tax bill with no explanation as to why my taxes weren't reduced. >:( >:( >:() There's also some stipulation about a recapture tax that I don't fully understand, and at this point don't really care, I just have a bad taste in my mouth concerning this program...       

Anyway, I knew I would get long winded on this and hope you don't mind too much but I haven't even begun to ask questions yet so let me wrap this up with a couple for now;

I know that my location would play a big role but in today's market could I expect to profit, or at least break even on a TSI harvest? If there's anyone on this forum in da U.P. that could help with this question and you'd like to see my management plan I could PM it to you.

Another big concern I have at this point is that my management plan included the stocking levels for each stand type but not did not include the value of the timber at that time to determine cost basis... should that have been done?... or is it possible to retroactively extrapolate the timber value from the stocking levels to determine my cost basis?.... or does that even matter?

I hope I didn't make this too long... if nothing else maybe it provided some of you with some good reading  ::)and food for thought.

Any advise, suggestions or comments will be greatly appreciated

[ID4ster]

When the plan was written how long a time frame was it written for? The plan should state this. I write mine for a 10 year time frame and then state that the plan should be updated. In the plan you have was there a course of action laid out for activities like commercial thinning, salvage harvests, PC thinning, planting, pruning, controlled burns, etc.? If so did you implement any of them? If not, why not?
As for utilizing some of the windblown or downed material you're probably doing the best you can. Without training, experience or equipment you can only handle what you're comfortable with and it sounds like you are. That doesn't make it easier to accept not using a 24" WP but unless you have a neighbor with equipment that can handle a tree that size along with the ability to get it down on the ground you'll have to accept the loss until you develop the expertise (assuming you want to) then take care of material like that on your own.
As for the value of your timber at the time of the plan that is something that a forester can do retroactively if they have the volume figures and if the volume is broken down by size class and/or grade. Understand though that that information is something that I consider outside the scope of a stewardship management plan and would have done separately with a separate charge at that time or the present time. If what you're trying to do is to determine your timber basis at the time of acquisition than it should be possible to determine that from your figures. If not than you'll need a retroactive cruise which is not cheap. Unless you find a really sympathetic forester they will charge you for the time it takes to use the figures you have and the research necessary to determine costs and revenues when you acquired the property to calculate the figures that you want.
You may want to start looking for another forester or see if the one that did your plan is available on a part time basis. Since they are the ones most familiar with your property they would be the ones to start with. If not, start doing your homework and find another forester or attend all the workshops and woodswalks that you can and learn what to do on your own.
Good luck, have fun and enjoy your timberland. Even with all this having your own property can be very rewarding.   

[Ron Scott]

Where is your property located in the north central U.P.? Markets are very poor right now, but probably better in the U.P. thqan most places. You need to discuss your existing situation with your consulting forester or a new one to proceed with you from where you are now with your property management objectives. You have some very good consulting forester in the U.P. depending upon where your prpoerty is located.

Ditto to what ID4ster stated above. The timber basis should have been completed when you purchased the property, but it can be worked back from the present, just a little more work for the forester and maybe added cost. Determining the timber basis is a seperate activity from the management plan.

[Cord-n-8R]

ID4ster, thanks for your reply. The plan does not include a timeframe... in fact when I applied for the QFP part of the application process was a review of the management plan by the DNR forester, and he returned my first application because the plan was "missing some elements required by QFP".... one of those was that the plan did not include the time period covered or an expiration date(the time period for this program may not exceed 20 years). He also said the plan must include a statement of our overall goals and objectives, which were not included in the plan. He said we could make these changes ourselves or in consultation with the plan writer and when I contacted the plan writer he informed me he was no longer doing consultant work and no longer had the records of our plan, so we just went ahead and added the time period ourselves (Dec. 2001 thru Dec. 2021) to satisfy the requirement. We also wrote a more detailed set of goals and objectives; "To improve the overall health of the forest and increase the the quality and volume of timber by promoting the regeneration of Northern Hardwoods and Red & White Pine. To enhance the aesthetic qualities and improve recreational oppurtunity by establishing trails and scenic views and to provide more suitable habitat for whitetails and other local wildlife for viewing and hunting." 

So, would you say the plan writer maybe did a half axed job?

The only course of action action laid out was to trim branches in the swamp conifer stand around the cabin to increase the aesthetic value by allowing a better view into the forest, which I have been doing, and to plant a wildlife seed mix in the open grassy area around the cabin, which I did but that has pretty much just reverted to grass. Other than that the only other suggestions were to remove all spruce and fir (2015+) in that stand and remove any merchantable hardwood, scarify the soil to promote pine growth and then hand plant white pine seedlings. Then to harvest poor quality and overmature hardwoods (again, 2015+). Also to remove all conifers except the WP. This was referred to as a heavy (shelterwood) thinning to maximize regeneration of sugar maple. Then to hand plant red oak seedlings in the resulting forest opening

I guess if I truly want to manage my forest I'll just need to find another forester and maybe this time I'll be better educated so I know what questions to ask and what to expect from them and make sure I'm getting my money's worth, not just paying somebody to perform a service without knowing what that service should really provide.     

[Cord-n-8R]

Ron, the property is in n.w. Marquette Co., near the McCormick Tract. I have a list of consulting foresters which I will refer to and begin contacting some of them to see what kind of assistance they are willing and able to provide. Can I do this under a cost sharing program again or is that a one time deal?

The problem is I am by no means wealthy and this is just going to be another added expense which is contrary to what I was hoping to accomplish.

[Ron Scott]

It sounds like your plan may not have been done by a certified plan writer and will need to be updated for approval by the MDNR. Check with the MDNR Service Forester serving the Marquette County area. The required update of your plan may qualify for cost sharing. Depending upon its quality to meet MDNR requirements for the CFA and QFP it might have to have a complete rewrite. There usually is some cost sharing for plan writing.

Also be sure that the consulting forester that you choose is a certified plan writer. You may only need to pull the few acres that you have the cabin or residence on out of the planning area for CFA or QFP qualifying. Even though you get a good tax break for keeping your property in forest management, as you stated, you may not want to go the CFA route since you will need to allow your property open for public hunting where under QFP you do not.

[Cord-n-8R]

The plan was written under the MDNR Forest Stewardship Cost Share program and the plan writer was chosen from a list of 'certified' consultant foresters. It was actually written by a 'forest technician' who worked for the consulting firm that I hired. I don't know if that would make a difference since I don't really know how a forest technician compares to a full fledged forester. (as much as I'm compelled, I don't think it appropriate or fitting to drop any names here).

Unfortunately I was not present when the plan writer actually looked over the property to write the plan so I have no idea how thorough he was(lesson learned)... hell, I don't even if he actually even walked the property, I s'pose he could've just gotten the information he needed by looking at maps and aerial photos.

At this point I don't know what to do or where to turn. (Is there a smiley face to express major frustration???)

Concerning CFL vs. QFP, a friend suggested that it generally takes longer to recover your cost through QFP than CFL.(Not sure if I understand that) It was suggested that you're better off to do whatever harvesting you can before enrolling in CFL. Does anybody have any thoughts on this?       

[Ron Scott]

The DNR will have to approve any timber harvests before they are initiated under the Commercial Forest Act. No big deal though as long as you are practicing sustainable forestry. Just have to fill out the required paper work in advance of the proposed harvest.

If you management plan was completed by a certified plan writer and  approved by the DNR, you may need to only have some updating done which shouldn't be too much work.