I realize that this topic has been covered before so please accept my apology. I spent most of my time "down under" in the drying and processing section.
In hardwoods, cutting 4/4 "normally" means cutting the boards at 1 1/8" thickness to allow for shrinkage and any cupping. I will usually have mine cut at 1 1/4" just in case....
My question is how do you charge for both of these situations. I sell the boards based on 1" thickness before planing. Let's say the price per board foot is $.50. Do you still charge a sawing charge of $.50 for the entire 1 1/8" thickness? What about the 1 1/4" thickness? $.50 or $.63?
Thank you
In hardwood, rough green, 4/4 is 1 1/8" - and 5/4 is 1 3/8" shy. In softwood it's the called size [ 1" is 1" rough green] and so on.
Are you buying, selling, or just sawing? If I'm buying 4/4 I want to know I can get a finished 3/4" board out of the rough stock. Generally most mills sell at 1 1/8" to assure this. This can vary by the buyer. Some will want a full 1 1/4". If sawing for someone else it depends on the customers requirements and expectations, which needs to be agreed on before the blade touches wood. You may have to educate the customer on what he really needs as to what he thinks he needs. Also factor in your own equipment capabilities and your ability to provide a consistently sized product.
Just saw at 5/4 and charge accordingly per board-foot!
I may have not been clear with my question. I'll try again,
I am the buyer. I sell the wood as 4/4. The boards are cut to 1 1/4" thickness. Should I be charged for 1" thickness or 1 1/4" thickness?
Quote from: Glenn1 on December 12, 2018, 10:00:36 AM
I may have not been clear with my question. I'll try again,
I am the buyer. I sell the wood as 4/4. The boards are cut to 1 1/4" thickness. Should I be charged for 1" thickness or 1 1/4" thickness?
I sell unplaned wood by the board foot. A board foot is 144 cubic inches. What ever the total board foot is, is what they pay for. There are more board feet in the same L x W x 1 1/4" than in L x W x 1 1/8 inches so I charge more.
Is the seller offering it as 4/4 or 5/4? What are his 4/4 and 5/4 prices? Did you specify a thickness over 4/4 when making the order? Was a price set and now the mill wants more because the lumber is thicker than requested? I guess the bottom line is pay whatever the two of you agree to that satisfies both of you.
I use the the 1/4 scale ALWAYS. NO CORRECTION calcs required. I don't deviate from this method and I use current local price the supplier pays for product deliver to his whare house
Thank you. I got it
As I hear it Glenn1's point is that 1-1/8" is hardwood 4/4 whereas 1-1/4 is not quite hardwood 5/4. It's nice to be obeying a convention even if the agreement between buyer and seller prevails. So what is the convention for hardwood at 5/4?
Quote from: Glenn1 on December 12, 2018, 10:00:36 AM
I may have not been clear with my question. I'll try again,
I am the buyer. I sell the wood as 4/4. The boards are cut to 1 1/4" thickness. Should I be charged for 1" thickness or 1 1/4" thickness?
Read my post, it depends whether it's hardwood or soft wood. I didn't make this up, I learned it from lumber buyers.
Quote from: Glenn1 on December 12, 2018, 10:00:36 AM
I may have not been clear with my question. I'll try again,
I am the buyer. I sell the wood as 4/4. The boards are cut to 1 1/4" thickness. Should I be charged for 1" thickness or 1 1/4" thickness?
Keep in mind that 1¼" is 5/4!
Just sayin'
Quote from: Chuck White on December 12, 2018, 06:43:23 PM
Quote from: Glenn1 on December 12, 2018, 10:00:36 AM
I may have not been clear with my question. I'll try again,
I am the buyer. I sell the wood as 4/4. The boards are cut to 1 1/4" thickness. Should I be charged for 1" thickness or 1 1/4" thickness?
Keep in mind that 1¼" is 5/4!
Just sayin'
Not in rough hardwood!
No. 5/4 in rough hardwood is 1 3/8" thick. I would price 1 1/4" rough sawn hardwood at 1 1/8" thick for measurement purposes. In hardwood, you always add 1/8" over.
I often ask myself the same question too. With my product mix we cut flooring feedstock that has to finish at ¾", plus cabinetry timbers that are usually expected to finish at 7/8". Either way the order is for "inch".
Mostly the species dictates the final application, so I can saw to the correct thickness green to get the finish size and just factor it into the price. But I got a couple that can go either way, and I've been asked before why that guys pack of inch cost less then my one. We sell in cubic meters but volume is volume so it doesn't matter if you talk cubes, or board foot or MBF... there's 25% more wood in a pack of 5/4 than a pack of 4/4, and that needs at a minimum 25% more log to produce.
Even though they're all "inch" someone has to pay for that. I'm in business so it can't be me... I have to pass it on to that buyer.
Here is how an invoice line would look if you buy wood from me;
6 Birch Hardwood boards 5/4 X 6" X 8' @ $4.80/BF $144.00
and then the tax & delivery if it applies added at the bottom 2 lines of the invoice just above the Total due box.
That APP I use to calc price ONLY allows 1/4 scale entries for thickness and cannot be manually adjusted. Options are 2/4, 3/4, 4/4, 5/4, 6/4, 7/4 etc. up to 48/4. I never have used any thing passed 16/4 so far.
FYI the same invoice for an order of 1 X 6" X 8' birch boards would look like the line below;
6 Birch Hardwood Boards 4/4 X 6 X 8" @ $4.80/BF $115.80
This does mean that you have to explain/show to the customer what he is actually getting/paying for.
As a miller ... because I charge by the hour I don't have to worry about changes in price ... so it's however many hours to do the work at my hourly rate (currently $60/hr)
.
As a buyer .... I would price compare just like for any other purchase.
.
As a reseller .... I'd buy at the best price/quality I could get, then apply a markup that makes me a profit without driving away customers.
None of these methods involves worrying about a price for board feet.
Your methods are bang on there John and are pretty much how I think and operate.
How ever I do have minimal inventory of primarily local hard woods from urban "rescue logs" that I mill and then sell. Hard to charge that lumber out by the hour. Probably would be 10% of my annual revenue.
I think many are missing the mark of the question. I will state it as a sellers point of view. My first lumber selling experience was exactly that...an experience!
If my board did not measure at least 1-1/8", it was considered 3/4 and I was paid for the 3/4 scaled price. If my 5/4 did not measure at least 1-3/8, it was considered 4/4 even if it actually measured 1-1/4. I was paid the 4/4 volume price. That taught me to saw accurately very quickly!
Including that extra 1/8 of an inch is part of doing business in hardwood lumber. If you add another 1/8 inch beyond that, that's your option but you are eating the price.
When I was custom sawing, I always charged by the hour and gave the customer whatever he wanted. If I were custom sawing somebody else's logs and they requested an inch and a quarter, I would come to an agreement with them on what to charge for that extra.
Quote from: Brad_S. on December 14, 2018, 01:16:58 PM
I think many are missing the mark of the question. I will state it as a sellers point of view. My first lumber selling experience was exactly that...an experience!
If my board did not measure at least 1-1/8", it was considered 3/4 and I was paid for the 3/4 scaled price. If my 5/4 did not measure at least 1-3/8, it was considered 4/4 even if it actually measured 1-1/4. I was paid the 4/4 volume price. That taught me to saw accurately very quickly!
Including that extra 1/8 of an inch is part of doing business in hardwood lumber. If you add another 1/8 inch beyond that, that's your option but you are eating the price.
When I was custom sawing, I always charged by the hour and gave the customer whatever he wanted. If I were custom sawing somebody else's logs and they requested an inch and a quarter, I would come to an agreement with them on what to charge for that extra.
Yanno, I'm going to say something here and some people will get upset.
I understand that that is "normal" where you guys are and if I was there I'd be doing the same. Thats just how y'all operate, and you can't win trying to buck the system. I understand that.
But part of me looks at that and just shakes my head at the sheer waste. Because when I look at that what I see is an industry thats based around the lowest common denominator, with no premium for getting it right. It should not take - subject to a "normal" range shrinkage rate - 3/8" inch to get from a green board through drying shrinkage to a clean, finished 3/4 board. Not if the boards are cut well, and stacked correctly.
That extra 1/8" is insurance, for hit and miss and wander in the green mill, and poor stickering and storage once cut. I cut species most of the time where shrinkage would be considered high by US standards and dont give them the extra 1/8", and get paid on the back of the moulder where (same same) if it doesnt hit 3/4" finished then its knocked back to the next size down. We invested a fair bit of money in accurate saws, and time (which is money) in upping our stickering and storage game so we didnt need the insurance, and it is paying off in terms of reduced kiln costs because the boards are that fraction thinner... and increased yield because you save an eight half a dozen times across a flitch and all of a sudden you've got an extra board.
I'm not criticising here - just observing. But it would seem to me that there is no real % in investing into more accurate equipment than the next guy, if you arent going to get some form of premium for it. I'm not saying thats right or wrong because it is what it is. So the only way to do better in that kind of framework is just get gear that cuts faster. Interesting, and it does explain some trends in equipment development there compared with other parts of the world.
Sawmills vary with the type of raw material coming in and what is demanded going out. I operate a hand set circle mill and my accuracy is embarrassing. Sawing mostly barn boards and trailer planks, who cares? Now if I was sawing high grade hardwoods and competing for logs and sales a band resaw would be a necessary. As to the 1/8" extra tradition in our hardwoods there is good reason for this. Those who have cut and dried the lower common grades, stickered 12" o.c. say r. oak or h. maple will know that the knots can drop or raise 3/16" in between sticks .