Must know knowledge for land owners wanting to sell their timber

[Lumberjohn]

Honest question here- at what point (as in acres)( or merchantable trees) does a forester for a private individual come in and do a management assecement? ((for lack of a better word)? 5 acres? 10 acres, 15?.
What I'm trying to ask is if a guy has 10 acres of saplings/ nothing merchantable and wants it managed will a forester come out and do it? I thought his cut of payment came from the timber sale. What if there is no "timber"?
If he does do it, who does the work, and how does he get paid? (the forester)

[Texas Ranger]

If he does do it, who does the work, and how does he get paid? (the forester)

We write management plans that may or may not include a harvest, we grow for the future.  Those plans are priced on acreage, stand, location, etc.  One can be as low as a couple of hundred, or thousands.  No one plan fits all.

[Texas Ranger]

As a land-owner, help me understand the profits: Clear-cutting seems to me be the most costly for the logger, as that requires them to handle all the trees...not just the valuable ones. When clear-cutting, is nothing left behind, no seed trees? Would I expect the logger to plant after their complete with the harvest or would they leave that to me?

Costly? Not really, he does not have to work around a leave stand, cut it all and let the sorter sort it out.  Clear cut is everything, and no, loggers do not normally replant after a harvest, unless they are with a full service agency of some nature.  Once the logging is done, most times, you are on your own.  This means you need a plan on what your future looks like, what to cut, clear or selective, That is the foresters job to help you through all this.

I marked and sold a tract for an absentee land owner, left a good growth potential stand.  Received good money for the landowner.  A couple of years later he went back to the same logger, cut his own deal at the previous price.  Problem was  timber prices had doubled in the years between my cut and his cut.  Plan your work and work your plan.

[coxy]

see that's the trouble the land owner did it and then the logger gets a bad name  who is at fault   the logger for making money  a few years ago I did a job wanted the LO to do a % but wanted no part of that tried to explain it to him  that he would make more but all he wanted is his money up front so I paid him a fair price and after it was done he was pithed off because he lost 5 grand for not taking a %  in a few years it will be ready to cut again  a lot of  people around here  that pay up front have in there contract to cut down to 10in on the stump 

[Southside]

As a land-owner, help me understand the profits: Clear-cutting seems to me be the most costly for the logger, as that requires them to handle all the trees...not just the valuable ones.

For a hand crew running a cable skidder, yes a clear cut often requires a lot more work as it takes just as long to hook a cable to a $5 pulp stick as a $200 oak log and a man can only hook so many in a day.  But for a mechanized crew a clear cut represents more profit as the key is production.  The more time the feller buncher spends with the saw head in the wood and the more sticks in a grapple skidder for each twitch, the more revenue  being generated.  Plus no need to weave and bob around leave trees, don't have to worry about damaging the crown when felling, drop them as fast as you can and just take the most direct path to the landing. 

[snowstorm]

What type of wood would double in price in a couple years? I have never seen it here. Soft wood pulp has gone way down. More like the price 20 yrs ago. Hw. Is twice what it was in 1985

[mike_belben]

The seeds are already in the ground, just waiting on sunlight.

[chevytaHOE5674]

....that pay up front have in there contract to cut down to 10in on the stump 

What is the problem with cutting a 10" tree? Generally in a hardwood thinning we thin across all the diameters all the way down to 4" DBH.

If you have a crooked poorly formed 6" tree why leave it grow for years only to be a 12" crooked junk tree. When all that time you could have given a potentially better tree a chance to grow in its place.

[mike_belben]

Amen

[coxy]

it would be different if they took the crappy ones but they only take the good ones and use them for processor wood 

[quilbilly]

As for prices going up over a couple years I've seen WRC go up over %50 in two. If you have a properly equipped crew clear-cutting can be just as fast or faster than thinning. Buncher piles with a grapple skidder feeding a processor vs a hand cutter with a cable skidder. That cable skidder also has a more limited path back to the land where a grapple skidder in a clear cut can just bomb on through and not have to go around trees.

[starmac]

It sounds to me like logging is done different in different areas.

Here we have spruce that has a saw log market or a firewood market.
Birch that only is marketable to some firewood folks.
aspen or popple to some, no market at all
cottonwood, also no market at all.

The mill will take spruce down to 6 in tops, but it has to be a 33 footer.
They have some sales that the logger is only to take birch for firewood, sometimes by the time all the birch the spruce will be toppled by the wind, so they let them go back and take it too.
I haul for basically a new logger, when he bought the sale he opted to also buy the birch which cost him 5500 bucks. There is only one firewood market to buy the birch and he has no way to unload log trucks and relies on self loaders to bring him wood, you also have to wait until he sells it to get your money.
The sale is too  far back to use self load trucks, so that is no option, so nary a stick of birch has come off of this sale. He basically threw 5500 bucks out the window.

In a way you could call this clear cut logging, but all aspen, cottonwood, birch and spruce that doesn't make sawlogs are left standing.
How else would you do it, and still turn a profit?

[Skeans1]

As for prices going up over a couple years I've seen WRC go up over %50 in two. If you have a properly equipped crew clear-cutting can be just as fast or faster than thinning. Buncher piles with a grapple skidder feeding a processor vs a hand cutter with a cable skidder. That cable skidder also has a more limited path back to the land where a grapple skidder in a clear cut can just bomb on through and not have to go around trees.

I won't disagree at all I'm on the North Oregon side and watched C&C blow through a 100 acre clear cut in 2 weeks no way a guy with a saw or cable could compete. Now to the thinning can I compete with them yes because production is always about the same about 3 to 4 loads a day because of damage control.

[Nate R]

Wow! Super helpful posts guys. Even the troll served a purpose in bringing out a dynamic I wouldn't have thought through otherwise.

Getting a proper appraisal and plan from a forester seems like the proper approach but I'm curious if foresters will work a detailed plan for the small size of my tract (roughly 17 acres). It seems from my reading, they are involved on very large projects...mine is failry small, no?

Depends!

I've worked with a consulting forester on a thinning of just 4 acres of red pine plantation. He didn't write a formal plan, but would've had I requested it. (But would've charged me more, too. And rightfully so.) But he's been QUITE helpful with dispensing advice, and knowing which local loggers might be better at my particular site's needs, etc.

Thanks to that good experience, we're now working with the same Forester on thinning a 35 acre plot of mixed hardwood and a bit of pine the family owns. The neighbor next door to that has 18 acres and is getting his done now too.

So, it all depends, they may work with you on your 17, but depending on the scenario, you may have to pay out of pocket, too. You also may want to see if your state has foresters available. We initially had a state DNR forester do a walk through of our 4 acres with us to evaluate what we had and what our next step would be. I had no knowledge at the time.....That walk through was free, and prompted me to understand what I had with some sample plots, etc.

[BradMarks]

Just read the entire thread. Jeff, you have quite the patience!   Yes, HIRE a forester, not only for "best care" management, but for "best price" marketing of any timber harvest.  It can/will make a difference.  True case scenario:  Daughter and son in law live on some land the owner was going to log.  Owner (80yrs+ widow who makes her OWN decisions) calls timber company (same one as years ago - different parcel) for log purchase agreement. Timber company has a general idea what's out there (aerial photography is good) and offers going camp run rate. Timber company hires "their" logger.  EXCEPT, if marketed correctly there were many "poles", at least a $300-400 more per thousand bd ft return. Good diameter, 60's and 80's (tall). But that would have required flaggers and such for long loads.  Didn't happen.  Nobody "lost money", just wasn't maximized.

[mike_belben]

1.  County forestors are usually free and will come out, walk with you and answer questions.  They can verbalize a basic plan based on what youve got and where you want to go with it. 

2.  The USDA equip program offers rebates on the cost of forestry management plans and procedures.  Call your local usda field office.

[luvmexfood]

If you cull all the tall folks every 20 years, soon youll have a 5ft population left behind breeding in perpetuity.  Thats high grading and you wont live long enough to see nature repair it.

What's wrong with short people? If your big and tall most clothing stores have a section for big and tall. Yet to see one that has a section for short and fat.  ;D

[Southside]

If you cull all the tall folks every 20 years, soon youll have a 5ft population left behind breeding in perpetuity.  Thats high grading and you wont live long enough to see nature repair it.

What's wrong with short people? If your big and tall most clothing stores have a section for big and tall. Yet to see one that has a section for short and fat.  ;D

Don't they call that the "Plus Size" area?

[mike_belben]

No, they call that walmart!

[woodjunky]

You better be careful there Abethetenacious on the way you direct yourself to your fellow members. Your tenure here could be minuscule. You may have no idea what was intended by the comment. I can think of several times a clear cut is beneficial depending on intent and species (aspen or jackpine for example). And as to high grading, the comment is right there too. Sometimes it's better to start over then try to undo what years of high grading has done to a timber stand.  You are left with a low or no value stand that may not have any value, even to wildlife. It all depends on the situation.

As far as loggers dollars are concerned. high grading a property 3 times(inproperly), leaving twisted crap trees soaking up the canopy light. Might sound worse than clear cut, and growing a fast growing cash crop like aspen or pine. or what i like to call crap wood....
but in reality, clear cutting destroys the natural ecosystem. Just like the fast growing crap wood blots out the sun for the young oak, maple cherry, birch, etc.... The plants that live in that forest usually get blotted out by pickers, and other nasty invasives or crap plants...

The whole idea of high grading is to establish a forestry plan. Build roads that make sense, not just blaze trail with the skidder ,tearing up everything in sight. Actual roads that can be used in 20 years when another thinning is due. "High grading", You cash out on the high grade trees, and clean the dead, and ones that will die within the next 20 years. also you leave the straight trees, and clean up the twisted crap. The logic is to open the canopy for the younger trees. The younger trees grow twice as fast or faster with good sun light. and the roads are already made... Thats called forestry as far as im concerned.

That should be the message being told on the "forestry forum"... This point of view saying high grading is a bad method, and trying to justify clear cutting... That should be on the "cash out, dont give a crap, logger forum". Greed can kill a forest ecosystem. Even a bad high grading plan can ,as was said, leave nothing of value for the next generation of loggers... But with responsible forestry practices, high grading is the only logical way to cut lumber, and have a healthy forest ecosystem.

I also dont like when people are forced to keep their opinions quiet. so feel free to start a debate. But dont expect to change my mind.

[Jeff]

 If you only know one method, one eco system, and one way of doing things, and are uneducated in widely used forest management terms, you shouldn't be condemning what many many knowledgeable people know for fact.   High grading is NOT proper northern hardwood management. It will do exactly at you are concerned about.  In Northern Hardwoods, you need to treat your forest like a saving account.  Harvesting the interest and maintaining the principal.  If you only take the best and leave the rest, which is high grading, you end up with the worst until that forest begins life anew.  Northern Hardwood management goals are to improvethe forest at each step, not degrade it.

Aspen may be junk wood in your area, but in good locations it is quite a valuable commodity and many people make a good living harvesting it. I'm late enough in my life that the aspen clearcut harvests I witnessed are now almost to the point of being ready to start again. 

I'm going to tell you this one time. You are free to share ideas, you are free to have your own opinions, you are  free to debate, but don't you ever come on here and make derogatory remarks about the forestry forum.  Got me? 

You need to find out what the term high grading means. Yer confused on that  Call some of the guys in your area I know a lot of em. 

[woodjunky]

....that pay up front have in there contract to cut down to 10in on the stump 

What is the problem with cutting a 10" tree? Generally in a hardwood thinning we thin across all the diameters all the way down to 4" DBH.

If you have a crooked poorly formed 6" tree why leave it grow for years only to be a 12" crooked junk tree. When all that time you could have given a potentially better tree a chance to grow in its place.

Exactly! Thats responsible logging. And its good to see you are in our neck of the woods doing a good job.

People need to think of this as a crop. You are a bad farmer, you get bad crops. You manage the forest so the good trees get the light, and you get good mature straight trees when its time to open up the canopy again.

[chevytaHOE5674]

I think your definition and others of high grading is different. Traditionally high grading in the forestry profession is taking the high value wood and leaving the dead twisted ugly stuff growing, it is cashing out all the value today with little/No regard for the future.

As for aspen and pine being "crap wood" that sounds like an uneducated opinion. Those species have their place and site to grow. Some sites could grow for 200 years and never produce an oak or maple tree larger than 10 foot tall, yet could grow a stand of tall straight large aspen or pine 3 or 4 times over.

[woodjunky]

If you only know one method, one eco system, and one way of doing things, and are uneducated in widely used forest management terms, you shouldn't be condemning what many many knowledgeable people know for fact.   High grading is NOT proper northern hardwood management. It will do exactly at you are concerned about.  In Northern Hardwoods, you need to treat your forest like a saving account.  Harvesting the interest and maintaining the principal.  If you take the best and leave the rest you end up with the worst until that forest begins life anew.

Aspen may be junk wood in your area, but in good locations it is quite a valuable commodity and many people make a good living harvesting it. I'm late enough in my life that the aspen clearcut harvests I witnessed are now almost to the point of being ready to start again. 


I'm going to tell you this one time. You are free to share ideas, you are free to have your own opinions, you are  free to debate, but don't you ever come on here and make derogatory remarks about the forestry forum.  Got me? 

You need to find out what the term high grading means. Yer confused on that  Call some of the guys in your area I know a lot of em.

I was just shocked to be seeing a person promoting proper forestry managment getting labeled a troll. Called out...

You can dance around your answer. but what you claim is high grading, is not what i consider high grading. Its perfectly true one greedy logger can ruin it for future generations of loggers.  But responsible high grading, like i said, is taking the biggest mature trees. But also the dead. The dying that wont make it to the next thinning. and the crooked crap...  You leave the species you want. You leave the young straight trees spaced properly. and in the process, opens up the canopy so the good trees grow faster...

Point is. a oak tree in a field that loos 300 years old, might only be 100 in reality. A tree stuck under the canopy in a ancient forest, might look 100 years old, and be 300 years old... So the point is. Use the sun to grow good trees.

You got guys here who's big pay days depend on clear cutting, and cashing out. The logic is being biased on the imediate money to be made, and the fact the good stands are rare now days.

So clear cutting and cashing out. Waiting 25 years before the aspen or pine is marketable. and having small aspen to harvest... Vs harvesting 20% of a good hardwood stand every 25 years...  What is a better savings account??

[woodjunky]

I think your definition and others of high grading is different. Traditionally high grading in the forestry profession is taking the high value wood and leaving the dead twisted ugly stuff growing, it is cashing out all the value today with little/No regard for the future.

As for aspen and pine being "crap wood" that sounds like an uneducated opinion. Those species have their place and site to grow. Some sites could grow for 200 years and never produce an oak or maple tree larger than 10 foot tall, yet could grow a stand of tall straight large aspen or pine 3 or 4 times over.

What do you call it when you go in a old forest and take the best 20% of the forest? Then in a managment plan, clear out the dead/dying/and crap wood. Weither its crooked or aspen?

Second. Id love to see this land where hardwoods magically dont grow, but pine and aspen mature in good time? That sounds like a bias statement to me.

And yea. I live up here on the fringe of society, in blistering cold, and horrible economy. One of the good things is we have large, hardwoods to choose from. Im not a production guy. and i dont particurlary like the production game. If im going to take the time to cut, dry store wood, and make something out of it. It sure wont be pine or aspen. Its a byproduct of the hardwood industry. Has value, but i literally avoid it.