WM (LT50) Debarker questions

[Old Greenhorn]

I have ben meaning to post these questions here for 2 weeks now but keep forgetting until I am standing at the mill, which is far away from internet access. ;D I have looked all through the manulas and can't seem to locate these little bits of information.
 First, I am trying to figure out if we have this debarker set up correctly for motor rotation. When the debarker runs, should the chips be thrown toward the operator or away (forward)? Right now if I look up from the bottom at the spindle nut, it is turning clockwise.
 Second, I am wondering if we may have the blade on the correct way. That blade has an aggressive angle on the teeth. I am wondering if it should be a negative or positive rake with respect to the log? In other words, should the tooth dig in, or drag across the log face? Right now I have it dragging. Again, can't find this in the manual.
 I am having a lot of trouble with that breaker tripping regularly as the blade gets over loaded. Since we put in the latest WM upgrade/improvement/fix for the engagement motor it is staying in contact with the log better, but sometime exerts too much force (IMO) and the motors starts to dance then the breaker pops. I really have to stay on it to keep it running on a 12' log with popping off.
 Lastly, I am wondering if we have a 'soft' breaker now that it has popped so many times. Is the wisdom of the group to change these out periodically? I haven't called for pricing, but wonder if we should change it out and get a few for stock.
 I am getting better at getting that blade 'just' engaged in the log without gouging, but I have to be very attentive to keep moving it in and out with the log sweep.
 The mill is an LT50 wide, super hydraulic.
 Thanks folks.

[tawilson]

Yes once the breaker trips a few times it will trip easier. I just ordered a couple spares as the replacement I have in there now is starting to trip.

[John S]

I had the same issue with my LT40 Wide when it was new in early 2018.  The first modification was replacing the bushing/washer with the larger diameter disk that limited the depth of cut. The breaker still tripped frequently. I questioned the rotation of the debarker blade as working against the forward motion of the sawhead.  WM sent me a kit to reverse the threads, I reversed the motor leads and the blade.  It now rotates counter clockwise when viewed from the bottom and rarely does the circuit breaker trip any more,  I have just under 600 hours on the mill.

[Old Greenhorn]

Thanks guys. John, which way do the teeth face on your blade?

[boonesyard]

I've had some debarker issues with my 50 as well. Installed the retrofit kit from Woodmizer, new arm and swing motor, mine spins clockwise. I've had some issues with exterior and interior breaker tripping as well.

One issue I can't seem to figure out is that I can't keep the debarker against the log. When I swing it in against it, that's the spot it says, I mean if the log tapers narrow away from me, I have to keep bringing the debarker in with the switch to stay engaged with the log. There is no spring for against it. I've looked at the install instructions, and it sure appears to be installed correctly  say_what

[John S]

The teeth face toward the operator throwing the chips toward me.  I wear a Stihl hard hat with face screen.  I did learn not to spit with the screen down!

[barbender]

My old Mk I debarker does a great job staying engaged to the log, but the motor just doesn't have enough power to make those extreme negative angle teeth on the blade do much other than rub and smoke some😁

[Beavertooth]

You can have someone to sharpen you debarker blades instead of buying replacement when they get dull or if you have a bench grinder you can purchase a grinding wheel that will grind carbide and sharpen them yourself. 

[Stephen1]

I had troubles with the breaker tripping. I replaced the breaker and have had no problems in the last 500 hrs. My blade throws the chips down the log away from me. The teeth face that way also. I also have broken the arm, replaced that with the new modifiation from WM and took of the V bracket as it did not swing as wide as the throat of the mll.  My debarker actullay can swing 360 wich allows it to swing past any funny shapes to the log.
I also have to keep hitting the switch as i run down the log to keep it in contact with the log. It only works nicely when you are sawing from the small end.

[Old Greenhorn]

Thank you everyone, all comments have helped me a bit. Today I focused on this a lot as I have in the past few days. I did several logs and only tripped the breaker twice for the session. My best day so far. I had to ride that swing control all the time though. Between shifting the blade guide in and out, and the debarker and watching the feedrate which sometimes seems to change, my fingers are busy. I think some of this is operator skill and attentiveness and some of it could be adjusted with engineering. Stephen, I am thinking if I have a short job that I might flop the blade and change the direction of rotation and try that just to learn. I don't get paid for messing around time, but the mill owner is happy when it makes an improvement. ;D I am happy when the mill runs right and I can make time. I asked the owner to get some breakers on order. I'll have to remind him a time or two before it gets done, but eventually we will have a few and I'll change it out. No doubt that breaker very is soft by now.
 I am glad to see I am not the only one hitting a hard learning curve on this issue and can't express my gratitude enough at hearing others experiences. I think I am a 'fair' sawyer, but this was annoying me that I could not make it right. This mill is about 3 years old and has 175 hours on it. I have put 50 of those hours on it in the past 4 weeks trying to learn what it likes and what it doesn't. I have more to go (it never really ends, does it?), but I will get it figured out and I thank you for your help and wisdom.

[Mapleman]

On my older LT40 the debarker turns clockwise when looking up at the bottom which means it throws chips at the operator and also seems to me that it must throw some of the dirt I'm trying to get rid of right at the sawblade while it's entering the cut and that doesn't seem ideal.  On the other hand, it's never tripped a breaker so that's a plus, probably because it's operating in a "climbing cut" situation.  Also the teeth aren't very sharp and aren't angled aggressively into the cut, which probably helps.

[Old Greenhorn]

Well, that is the same setup we are running now, even though it is climb cutting, it still digs in from time to time and pops the breaker. Being constantly attentive helps quite a bit, but there i other stuff to watch and sometimes I don't catch it. I am just trying to see it I can't make it better.

[Crossroads]

Do you have the wide debarker on this lt50 or is it the standard? The standard rotation is clockwise and throws the chip back at the operator. With the wide debarker, it should be rotating counterclockwise and throwing the chips away from the operator. Also, the bottom washer that holds the blade should be replaced with a disk that reduces the depth of cut. Before the disk was available, I was tripping the breaker quite often, after installing the disk, I rarely trip the breaker, only when it hangs up on a knot or something. I think continuous adjustment while going down the log is just the way it is. Good luck. 

[terrifictimbersllc]

My lt70 has the wide debarker and spins away from the front operator. It has always acted underpowered with the blade stopping or skipping as it goes down some logs. WM sent the reverse mandrel and bolt to try but that didn't change anything.

Best operation is to have the debarker positioned in several inches so when head goes forward the log pushes it aside then you can load it a little more. As opposed to bringing  it in after entering log. Still it doesn't work very forcefully and nothing as good as my 2001 lt40 super debarker.

[Stephen1]

I have also upgraded to the 1/2" wide deparker teeth. I was thinking my old wheel needed sharpening and so ordered the new wheel, the only one in stock was the 1/2" instead of the 1/4" . 
It works a lot better, a wider swath for the blade to hit and easier to adjust the height to match the saw blade. 
I also discovered my debarker was tilted a little and there is an adjustment to level the debarker. That also made a difference. 

[Old Greenhorn]

Anybody can tell me what the difference is between a wide debarker and a regular one? This was bought as a 'wide' machine, so I am assuming it's a wide debarker, right?

[Stephen1]

The "Wide" is the throat of the saw blade. Wide on mine is 34" . I usually tell people I can saw 32" wide slabs. My old LT40HD was a 28" throat and I could saw a 26" wide slab. Sometimes you can "Bibby" the log to get the last 2 "

[terrifictimbersllc]

The radius of the arc that the debarker has to swing in is larger in a wide mill than a narrower mill.So in a standard mill, the debarker mount is on the saw head. In a wide mill, there is a approximately 2 foot long post coming out of the back of the saw head and the debarker is mounted to the end of that. This arrangement has non-ideal consequences originating in the laws of physics that have been managed somewhat but have not been completely  overcome, IMO. 

[boonesyard]

Sounds like I've got the wide upgrade installed correctly, having to ride the swing switch on irregularly shaped logs (I saw a lot of that stuff). Crossroads, you are right, after the upgrade, mine does spin counter-clockwise.  

[Crossroads]

This is the wide debarker, part of me wants to put it back to a standard debarker and just forget about debarking logs under about 14" dia

I was running the swing belt a little tighter to help with loading the spring and making it stay in contact with the log better. Then the swing motor shaft broke. Now I run the belt a little on the loose side and drive with one hand on the swingle toggle and the other on the feed speed control and if the debarker starts to take a solid bite and slow the feed rate, I can increase the feed rate momentarily.

[boonesyard]

Yea, i was looking at the swing belt too, but the shaft is pretty small. I think I'll leave that alone. I don't have any problem riding the swing switch, I just figured that might be part of the reason the breakers might trip. Sometime I can go for a week or 2 without tripping, next time it trips right away. I think I'll order a new breaker.

[Crossroads]

The major downfall with the swing motor is the hole drilled through it for a roll pin. Definitely a manufactured weak spot

[Old Greenhorn]

There is a world of useful information here for a guy like me, thank you all!

[Magicman]

Also know that "wide" might refer to two different things.  The wide head is one thing but also the debarker blade is offered in two different thicknesses as Stephen1 mentioned above.  ¼" and ½"  I prefer the ¼" because the cut is narrower taking less hp to turn/cut.  That plus my thinking is that the top of the ½" blade could contact the log leaving the lower portion of the blade not cutting/cleaning the log.  Also as designed, my blade is climbing out of the cut and the teeth have a back rake.

[Percy]

After reading this thread, I thought Id show  how I overcame the same problem(s) many have with the debarker system on some Woodmizers.
 The first video is one I made today and the second is from 2013 when I first came up with the idea. I was using a 12 volt compressor back then but now I use the house air supply which tensions my blade as well.

https://youtu.be/fX5zdwEDOM4

https://youtu.be/cFpxoOZRLUs

[boonesyard]

After reading this thread, I thought Id show  how I overcame the same problem(s) many have with the debarker system on some Woodmizers.
The first video is one I made today and the second is from 2013 when I first came up with the idea. I was using a 12 volt compressor back then but now I use the house air supply which tensions my blade as well.

https://youtu.be/fX5zdwEDOM4

https://youtu.be/cFpxoOZRLUs

That is a great idea. 

[Old Greenhorn]

Well a little follow-up here for future readers. I have yet to mess around with the blade rotation, but I have been working on my technique and have found that will diligence I can mostly keep the breaker from popping. I have gone entire days without it popping even once. However, the exception to this is on small logs where that top cut is often on a steep part of the log curve. For some reason this overloads it regularly. I vary technique constantly but this issue in consistent. One the larger logs where the blade is 'properly engaged' I have much better success. I just have to keep a close eye on it during it's travel length and adjust as I go. It's important not to engage the log 'hard', but rather to just make sure the blade is deep enough to do it's job and no more.
 AT this point I am quite sure the breaker is soft but we haven't gotten a replacement yet. In summary operator skill plays in here a lot, I think, but is not the only piece of the problem.

[WV Sawmiller]

Tom,

   The last job I did I was thinking how well my debarker was working. I'd just barely kiss the logs and was constantly adjusting the swing in and out based on the log profile. They were mostly thick, dirty locust logs and the little debarker was earing its voltage. Then suddenly my debarker just stopped working. I checked the breaker and it was not tripped. I have broken the little wire feeding it in the past so took the plate off and checked that. The wire was okay and when I'd hit the forward button I'd hear the solenoid click but no spinning blade. I checked the blade and found the 2 set screws had loosened and the blade had dropped and it was wedging. I just slid it up and tightened it with an allen key but it slipped again so I used my 3/8" socket with the allen key attachment and was able to torque it enough it held. I just remembered it is riding a little high now cutting the groove just above the blade so I need to remember to adjust the height to match the blade.

    Bottom line/lesson learned - check those set screws in your debarker as part of your normal check list/service routine.

[barbender]

OG, I may have said this already, sorry if I am repeating myself. My debarker is the old version, but if I am consistently popping the breaker I have to back of the spring preload on the tensioner arm. And yes, once they pop a few times they keep popping easier and easier. If mine is popping a lot, something is out of adjustment and needs investigated. My main problem is my 1/2 hp motor just doesn't have enough sauce to power those dull toothed negative rake blades in very deep.

[Old Greenhorn]

Howard, glad you figured it out. Surprised the breaker didn't pop when the blade bound up. These WM debarkers have so many versions and revisions just for the LT50 alone that I can't keep them all straight. The one on your mill I think is very different than on the mill I run and I don't recall any set screws of which you speak. I will take a look next time though but I think I am running a very different animal. This is a 2017 and I believe there were 2 separate major revision upgrades since this was first built. Plus, it's a wide version.
 Sure good to know though and good to pass along. These little things can drive a man to drink if your head isn't in the right place when they happen or if you don't look in exactly the right place at the right angle or misinterpret what you think you are seeing. If you are on a job and the sun is heading toward the horizon, and you want to get back on the road for your 2 hour drive home, and you still have 5 logs to go, things can get even worse. SO I am told anyway. 

[WV Sawmiller]

Tom,

   I don't know how else your blade would attach to the shaft of the debarker motor. The blade has a flat side and so does the shaft. Just line them up, slide the blade up and tighten the set screw(s). I bet you a lutefiske sandwich that is the way yours attaches too. ;D

[Old Greenhorn]

Well I am still very confused by your description Howard. I don't know of this 'flat' you are talking about, its a round hole and the only flats are the sides of the blade body. This debarker has the blade held on by a single large bolt up through the center and a large flat washer. It may be your are talking about the set screws that hold the blade adaptor onto the motor shaft. I'll take some photos next time I am there. Regardless of how it turns out, you can keep your lutefisk (please).

[Stephen1]

I installed the 1/2" blade on my Debarker along witha new breaker. Works great now. I like the larger grouve of the 1/2" blade. I find it works better but it ccold be it's just new and sharp. 

[WV Sawmiller]

Tom,

   Okay on the Lutefish sandwich. Yes I am talking about the blade adapter that fits on to the shaft of the motor. Those are the set screws that loosened in my case.

[Old Greenhorn]

I'll have to take a look when I am there next.

[terrifictimbersllc]

Debarker blade bore has a flat on it that matches the end of the mandrel.

[Old Greenhorn]

Well Dennis, that doesn't sound like what we have. You made me get up from my cozy warm chair in a balmy 75° cave and go out to the shop and look at a blade I have on the bench for repair. This was the original blade that came on the LT50 debarker. For the life of me I remembered no flat or "D" hole in that blade and sure enough, this is how it looks:



 

 You really had me second guessing myself. After all my years fixing machinery I couldn't imagine that I had not made note of something like that, so I had to go look and see if my 'old-timers disease" was progressing. The replacement blade for this was the same way, round hole.

[LeeB]

However, the exception to this is on small logs where that top cut is often on a steep part of the log curve. For some reason this overloads it regularly.

Do you think maybe the blade is trying to climb up slope and binding?

[Old Greenhorn]

It could very well be the case. I am slow but persistent and keep watching this and studying it trying to figure it out. AT the moment, I am thinking this may be the case, but I am trying to figure out why. We are still considering flipping the blade and reversing the motor direction, this has worked for others (read back a a little).
 Also now thinking about MAYBE trying that 1/2" blade even though this is counter intuitive to me. I can't debate actual experience such as Stephen has. I am patient. I keep watching and learning and am well aware that I only have just under of a hundred hours running this mill so my skills are the first thing I question before I blame the equipment.

[WV Sawmiller]

 

Hard to see but the set screws are on the adapter to the debarker blade here.

Bottom view of my debarker blade attachment.

   If that is not what you have and I owe you a lutefish sandwich that you don't want come on down and I'll substitute a WV catfish sandwich instead. It does taste better than lutefish and actually is easier to come by. :D

[terrifictimbersllc]

Apologies x3. I misspoke. It is the heavy washer that goes on underneath the blade that has the flat spot in it that matches the flat spot on the mandrel.

[terrifictimbersllc]

I'm speaking of my 2001 LT 40 super, and 2019 LT 70 super debarkers. I have no idea what's on a 35. And if you didn't know there is a flat spot in the washer, there probably isn't one there any more anyway. :D :D

[Old Greenhorn]

There may be a couple of flats there now. ;D :D Yeah, I don't recall on the bushing if I mess with it before the winter closes in I will take a better look. 
 Howard, the unit on the LT50 does not have that disc below the blade, it has a radial band that is part of the blade shroud. I froze my toes off all day but never got closer than 100' to the mill so I didn't have time to check in on all this stuff. Maybe tomorrow or Monday. It's getting cold which makes me just get the work done and get home.  The high for today was 38 and the average wind speed was 15mph. I never broke a sweat.

[Stephen1]

Another thing I found on my adjustment for my debarker is on saw head in front of me as i lean over to  look down the log. I can adjust the level of the dbarker as it runs down the log. If it is out by a tad in close it is out by a lot on large logs as the debarker swings out. It took me a while to find this problem, like a few hundred hours of sawing. Like a lot of  everything I do, it tends to be simple. I found it after reading an old post from Tom about adjusting band rollers on a WM and he mentioned A WM has 6 ways to adjust everything. lol I was looking at the mill sawing and the Debarker was all the way out when I noticed it had a bit of a tilt and then I saw the 2 adjustment right in front of my eyes. The frame holding the debarker to the saw head has 2 bolts which can be adjusted. It sure runs nice now and no breakers tripping, blade folows the debarker line.  

[barbender]

If your debarker blade is canted to the cut, it will definitely kick the breaker. Sometimes when changing a band I will place a small chunk of wood behind the debarker arm to pivot it out of my way a bit. Sometimes I also forget that piece of wood in there, and it takes a while to figure out the performance and breaker popping issues🤦🏻‍♂️🤦🏻‍♂️😂

[WV Sawmiller]

   I got out today and adjusted my debarker height. I just put a blade on the saw then used the blade tilt tool that came with the mill and adjusted the debarker blade down till it was centered on that. The cut was tracking dead center in the debarker groove before the blade got loose.

   While I was at it I moved the little plastic connection to the hydraulics in just a fudge to get a better connection and less arcing. I'm tired of having to move the head forward or back an inch or so to get the hydraulics to work and I've sanded the spots off a couple times recently. It is so simple to move the little plastic connection over I should have done that long ago too.

[Old Greenhorn]

Just a quick follow-up on this one. First, yes, there is a flat in the washer/spacer/bushing but not it the blade.

Second, I had some time over the weekend and flipped the blade and reversed the motor direction as several here, as well as WM advised. Now the blade spins so that it throws chips away from the operator. Yesterday I ave it a full test on both large and smaller logs. It worked pretty much like a dream. I onl tripped the breaker twice: Once was because it got nearly full wrapped in a knot/short stub and I would have expected an overload for that regardless, and the second time was at the far end of an 18' log where I couldn't see well and I think the log grew too fast and the blade pushed in too hard. Certainly this is a huge improvement. We have backup breakers on order and I plan a full alignment next time I get to mess with it. There may still be some heeling going on. Still it is hugely better.

[LeeB]

reversed the motor direction

Was that just a matter of reversing the wires at the motor?

[terrifictimbersllc]

Watch out that the blade doesn't become unscrewed. You can get a reverse mandrel if it becomes a problem.

[LeeB]

Good point. The current mandrel is left hand thread.

[John S]

Yes, WM sent me a new mandrel and I reversed the wires.  That was in the spring of 2018 after a few months of operation.  After popping the circuit breaker multiple times per day, it now pops a few times each year.

[Old Greenhorn]

Well, lets be clear here. First, yes, I flipped the blade over then reversed the wiring on the motor.
 Second, the direction it rotates in now would tend to drive the screw tighter rather than loosen it.
 Third, there are a great many variations on WM's debarkers between the different mill models, wide models, revised arm designs, blades with flats, blades without, spacers, no spacers, Extra disc on the blade shaft or not. You can't really generalize any of it because it leads to a lot of confusion and mis-information. I hesitate on flipping the rotation, but we checked with WM and they basically said 'Yup, do it, it will run better'. Always talk to the builder. :D ;D
 Not a single breaker trip today.