Looking to start a 25,000 to 50,000 MBF per day sawmill

[mike_belben]

I think a rail siding would be critical if you lean toward stockpiling.

I didnt think of that but yeah if you wanna be seriously bigtime whether sawing or just distributing, a big flat lot on the trainline is probably the ticket.  I have seen full railcars of sawdust and chip and i think they go to make partical board and MDF at arauco down around all the brick plants in moncure. So if youre gonna become a serious mill with rail capacity look at railing your waste stream too.  


The rail runs right past the treater i already mentioned in stony point. A chainlink fence is all that separates. And its an old "backward" (by newfangled triangle standards) cheap kind of place full of fallow tobacco fields.  Maybe a great country location to consider setting up a sawmill. Right next to the treaters, right on the rail and with access to charlotte, chattanooga, knoxville, tricities, atlanta, roanoke and the triangle.  Im sure wages in stony point are cheap.  

In my travels i got the impression that the cheapest pine sawlogs youd find were down toward wadesboro and mt gilead region of the state. I dunno.

maybe you could buy logs off a rail siding too.  It takes one guy with a phone, porta potty, his pickup truck, a wheel loader and a scale stick to set up a concentration yard.  Theres one up here where two guys buy for two mills just sitting in their trucks all day.  2 wheel loaders and no porta potty actually.

I will be shocked if the big players aren't back to sawing at margins that will leave you no incentive to join them before you could possibly get any mill built and operating.

That is the flip side that worries me.  New equipment either requires not needing the money cuz you already have it, or borrowing and having stable markets without production stoppages in order to pay the note.  Looking over the past 30 years (the longest duration in singular financing) markets are anything but stable. 

 I expect a huge china provoked bust in forest products just like in iron products manufacturing and scrap iron.  Having lost it all a time or two, it would be hard for me to roll the dice.  Twice shy and all.
Hence the suggestion to broker stuff.  

Theres nothing to maintain.  Licenses and reputations dont wear out or depreciate.  Your broker business can be a very small investment that serves your building business.  If you dont do much brokering business this month its not gonna lay off a crew of skilled laborers you took years to find while a 50 or 150k monthly note goes in the red. So what if diane and carol have an easy week? Their morale will be up. There is no loan on them or the brokering equipment, set a salary and thats it, fixed cost to write off, paid for by what they save your construction side in material procurement.  


A broker has one or two workers sort of working the switchboard of all sorts of other peoples assets and crews, without much invested themselves.  Yes they may only get a small percent of commission on the transactions between producers, distributors, buyers and transporters... but if you measure the overhead dollars they invested to the dollars they make, im confident brokers are the ones doing the least to get the most.  With zoom you dont even need an office.  A back bedroom, laptop, license and a blue parrot headset.


If i end up crippled thats what ill do.

[blyons11]

I think a rail siding would be critical if you lean toward stockpiling.

I didnt think of that but yeah if you wanna be seriously bigtime whether sawing or just distributing, a big flat lot on the trainline is probably the ticket.  I have seen full railcars of sawdust and chip and i think they go to make partical board and MDF at arauco down around all the brick plants in moncure. So if youre gonna become a serious mill with rail capacity look at railing your waste stream too.  


The rail runs right past the treater i already mentioned in stony point. A chainlink fence is all that separates. And its an old "backward" (by newfangled triangle standards) cheap kind of place full of fallow tobacco fields.  Maybe a great country location to consider setting up a sawmill. Right next to the treaters, right on the rail and with access to charlotte, chattanooga, knoxville, tricities, atlanta, roanoke and the triangle.  Im sure wages in stony point are cheap.  

In my travels i got the impression that the cheapest pine sawlogs youd find were down toward wadesboro and mt gilead region of the state. I dunno.

maybe you could buy logs off a rail siding too.  It takes one guy with a phone, porta potty, his pickup truck, a wheel loader and a scale stick to set up a concentration yard.  Theres one up here where two guys buy for two mills just sitting in their trucks all day.  2 wheel loaders and no porta potty actually.

I will be shocked if the big players aren't back to sawing at margins that will leave you no incentive to join them before you could possibly get any mill built and operating.

That is the flip side that worries me.  New equipment either requires not needing the money cuz you already have it, or borrowing and having stable markets without production stoppages in order to pay the note.  Looking over the past 30 years (the longest duration in singular financing) markets are anything but stable.

I expect a huge china provoked bust in forest products just like in iron products manufacturing and scrap iron.  Having lost it all a time or two, it would be hard for me to roll the dice.  Twice shy and all.
Hence the suggestion to broker stuff.  

Theres nothing to maintain.  Licenses and reputations dont wear out or depreciate.  Your broker business can be a very small investment that serves your building business.  If you dont do much brokering business this month its not gonna lay off a crew of skilled laborers you took years to find while a 50 or 150k monthly note goes in the red. So what if diane and carol have an easy week? Their morale will be up. There is no loan on them or the brokering equipment, set a salary and thats it, fixed cost to write off, paid for by what they save your construction side in material procurement.  


A broker has one or two workers sort of working the switchboard of all sorts of other peoples assets and crews, without much invested themselves.  Yes they may only get a small percent of commission on the transactions between producers, distributors, buyers and transporters... but if you measure the overhead dollars they invested to the dollars they make, im confident brokers are the ones doing the least to get the most.  With zoom you dont even need an office.  A back bedroom, laptop, license and a blue parrot headset.


If i end up crippled thats what ill do.

Happy to pay for consultation if you have time to chat
At the end of the day, really just trying to control my own product and create something that can be replicated

[Ed_K]

 I haven't started to view all the comments, but the very first thing I saw was an uncomfortable ride for an 8 hr shift.

[mike_belben]

I dont want your money, give it to someone you see with kids that look hungry. 

I sent you a PM, happy to try n help if i can. 

[fluidpowerpro]

Isn't 25,000 to 50,000 Mbf per day actually 25,000,000 to 50,000,000 bf per day? Does such a mill exist anywhere? 

[SawyerTed]

Isn't 25,000 to 50,000 Mbf per day actually 25,000,000 to 50,000,000 bf per day? Does such a mill exist anywhere?

The "M" is actually the Roman Numeral for 1000 rather than an abbreviation for Million.  It is a holdover from years gone by.  

[stavebuyer]

Isn't 25,000 to 50,000 Mbf per day actually 25,000,000 to 50,000,000 bf per day? Does such a mill exist anywhere?

The "M" is actually the Roman Numeral for 1000 rather than an abbreviation for Million.  It is a holdover from years gone by.  

25,000 -50,000 "thousands" is technically 25-50 million feet; but everyone understood the implied production level.

[SawyerTed]

I see the error in my haste to reply so early in the morning.  :-[

[Machinebuilder]

Isn't 25,000 to 50,000 Mbf per day actually 25,000,000 to 50,000,000 bf per day? Does such a mill exist anywhere?

The "M" is actually the Roman Numeral for 1000 rather than an abbreviation for Million.  It is a holdover from years gone by.  

That confused me for a while. At least now I know why.
I am used to engineering/scientific notation,
K (kilo) = 1,000
M (mega) = 1,000,000

[wkf94025]

As a noob who is nearing the 1 year anniversary of his first mill (Lucas 7-23), and has gone increasingly "vertically integrated" milling his own Doug Fir, Redwood, white oak, black walnut and possibly red oak, I am FASCINATED by this thread, and hope the OP keeps us posted with what he decides to do, and how it turns out.  (Note this is my first post on this forum.)  I've dropped a quarter million in capex the last year between mill, skidsteer, Airstream office, wood shop power tools, container village, electrical infrastructure, F350, trailer, a pair of solar kilns (5,000mbf capacity total) plus 3 guys costing $8k/week helping build out my operation, mill, plane, sticker, stack, band, dry, etc.  Though 2/3's of that capex is financed at ~3%.  For what purpose?  To supply my own KD Doug Fir timberframe, clear heart redwood siding and decking, oak flooring, walnut cabinetry, live edge furniture, etc., for rebuilding a 440sf shop lost in Aug 2020 wildfire, and a new ADU (cottage) of ~1,200sf.  It'll be gorgeous, and it's already been a TON of fun, and 100% bonus depreciation means the $250k spent is really $125k after tax, assuming these are lifetime assets, which I believe they are.  The common thread?  My fascination with vertical integration, much like the OP.  Quality control, cherry picking best logs, best slabs, best boards, etc., and sell the rest when/where I can.  Though I have a nearly-free source of logs, but only because I'm a very small operation with very limited end product needs.  Through relationships and luck, I have 30mbf of quality Doug Fir logs at 5 cents/bf delivered, 20mbf of quality redwood logs at $1/bf delivered, white oak free, black walnut 3mbf at 20 cents/bf.  Is that luck and cost basis scalable?  Likely not.  Do I think I have the foundation for a profitable hobby / retirement?   Perhaps.  Good news is almost all the equipment I've bought is highly re-marketable due to backlogs, supply chain issues and inflation, so there is no chance I'll lose my butt on this addiction.  Which is exactly what it is.

[moodnacreek]

Hope things don't go back to normal.

[Cruiser_79]

Interesting thread! That Weyerhaeuser mill is absolutely amazing to watch. How on earth is it possible to own/manage almost 30 millions of acres and do everthing from planting trees to selling dryed lumber??  ???
Imagine how many mechanics they need at one mill to maintain all those board conveyors etc  :D 

The wravor that the topic starter showed is quite impressive, but like some other people said the production won't be what they say.  The Mebor I own has a production mentioned of 20 m3 per 8hr shift or so, but I would be very happy if I ever get to 10 m3 a day without problems  :D It's not the mill, but the entire handling of logs, boards, bark, sawdust, flints, beams, sawbands sharpeners etc . To save costs it could be an option to start with all the automation of log sorting, conveyors, board lifters, stacking devices, kilns etc., and if everything works scale up with your mill in the end. My situation is not even close to a professional operation, but I try to do it step by step and make sure the hardware of every step is capable for scaling up production. Hopefully I will ever end up with a reasonable 'production line'....

I believe that it would be cheaper to just purchase the lumber at the Weyerhaeuser style companies, and try to get as much discount as possible because you need some serious volumes. But you will always be dependent of them. I can notice that the quality of the lumber I buy for some construction is worse than before the covid. Maybe because the demand and prices are higher.  It would be great if you can run your own mill and aren't (or maybe partly dependent) of lumber suppliers, and can obtain a high quality for prices that you know in advance. Personally I don't think it's only price that matters. Independancy and loving your job is worth a lot as well...

[wkf94025]

It would be great if you can run your own mill and aren't (or maybe partly dependent) of lumber suppliers, and can obtain a high quality for prices that you know in advance. Personally I don't think it's only price that matters. Independency and loving your job is worth a lot as well...

Well said.  That's why I own a mill and the supporting toys.  Fun.  Quality.  Economics.