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Style of Circular Saws

Started by Corley5, March 25, 2002, 08:33:39 PM

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Corley5

All this talk of Wood Mizers is making me dizzy.  What style teeth do you guys run in your circular saws?  I run Simonds Blue Tips style 3 long, guage 8/9 with a 9/32 kerf.  My 50" saw takes 36 of them and the 52" takes 42.  I've been told that these saws are considered soft wood saws because of their fewer number of teeth.  You can't push them in hard wood.  They don't clean fast enough.  The soild tooth I was running has lots of teeth, not sure of count, and could be fed pretty fast.
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

DanG

The Mobile Dimension Saw only uses 6 teeth on a 30" wheel. They are 5/16" kerf.  I haven't put it into any hardwood, yet, but it does fine in pine and cedar. I have some oak and cherry logs waiting for the next test, so I'll know soon. 8)
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

Jeff

F pattern 56 inch 52 tooth 9/32 kerf.  Corley I am going to do a little video demonstration of swedging as soon as it gets warmer. Here it is spring and its only 6 degrees this morning!
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Kevin

Videos?
Shouldn`t you be patching the floor in your saw booth?  :D

DanG

We could use a warm-up here, too. It musta got down into the high 60's last night.  Had to have some hot grits to warm up my gizzard this mornin'.     :D :D
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

Ron Wenrich

I've been running F pattern 54" saws for the past several years.  But, I'm switching over to B pattern 46 tooth saws and a 6/8 gauge.  The stiffer saw holds up better, and the B pattern has 1 1/2 times the gullet capacity.

For teeth, I was running IKS chrome.  Their chrome isn't as thick as some of the others and can be swaged and sharpened with a hand file.  I still run them on the vertical edger.

I was hitting too much trash in the logs and converted over to regular teeth.  I was getting rid of the teeth before they were filed too short, so why pay the extra expense.  The longs only give you a few extra filings, so, again, why pay the expense.

Brands I've used are IKS and Simonds.  I prefer Simonds, but will use the IKS.  I also hand file.  I feel I have better control and never burn the teeth (my arms don't move that fast :D).

I rarely swage anymore.  I will about half way through a set a teeth if I'm sawing tulip poplar.  It seems that it needs just a little more at that point.  For the denser hardwoods, I can usually breeze through a set of teeth and never swage, unless I hit something.

I also heard that you are supposed to sharpen, then swage.  I've always swaged then sharpened.  Most guys I know do it that way.  
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Jeff

QuoteI also heard that you are supposed to sharpen, then swage.

I can't imagine doing it that way, after I swedge (swage?) theres is no cutting edge, just a wider tooth. Ya gotta sharpen. Could it be, they are sharpening then swedging then sharpening?
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Jeff

I usually will swedge at least once in the life of a set of teeth, but I saw 80% aspen anymore which saws quite a bit different from dense hardwoods. I can get up to 150,000 feet on a set of teeth, if I don't hit no tramp.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Corley5

I've never swaged a saw myself.  I watched Grandpa do it once or twice but like a lot of things I didn't pay as much attention as I should have.  I don't recall that he sharpened before swaging.  According to Lunstrom in "Circular Sawmills and Their Efficient Operation" you are supposed to sharpen before swaging.  After hearing that two experienced sawyers don't sharpen first that's what I'm going to do.  I'm looking forwrd to your demo on swaging Jeff.  I've got four solid tooth saws that could use it if need patients ;D
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

Corley5

It's been cold here too.  Yesterday morning we had zero and in town by the Sturgeon it was 12 below.  Pretty cold for this time of the year.  Last couple days have been really nice.  Beautiful blue skies but not very warm.  Didn't break freezing either day.  Getting a tan on my face though :D.  Where ever the sun can work on something dark it's melting snow.  We need a warm rain or wind to really cut it.  
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

Jeff

Corley, we'll make a date when the weather turns better and you got the mill opened backup for me to come up and I'll bring one of my (swages?) along.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Ron Wenrich

Yes, I always thought it was "swedge" until I saw "swage " somewhere in print.  Probably in some magazine.

I was at one mill that used to swage every time their saw was dull, but only sharpened every other time.  For some reason their saws got hot (probably from being dull).  To cool down the blades they would dump water on them.  They couldn't understand why their blades needed hammering so often.

I've seen sharpen, swage and sharpen.  Just seems like a waste of time and teeth to me.  I forget where I heard the sharpen then swage.  

I also use a spider guage to check side clearance, especially on new teeth.  You can get them all the same width which minimizes saw marks.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Jeff

I have a swedge here at the house. On the side of it says swage ::)
So I guess a swedge is really a swage which I thought was a hanging light which is really a chandelier, which sounds like can-o-beer so I say, See ya later Im thirsty and outa here.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Tom

Well, I didn't know.  It isn't in my vocabulary, so I went to Websters.
  
Swedge isn't in the book.

Swage : a tool used by metalworkers for shaping their work by holding it on the work or the work on it and striking with a hammer or sledge  

                                                :P ;D

Corley5

 8)  We'll do that.  At the rate spring is arriving it maybe July :D  What kind of swage do you use?  The kind that is struck with a hammer which I believe is an upset,or the the kind I've seen in trade magazines with the levers and handles that looks expensive.
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

Don P

I try to sharpen, swage, sharpen. Didn't say I always did it :D.
It does seem to make it go easier to me...like I know anything about it. I figured it moved the thinner metal easier. Mine must be an upset.  I can tell I swage way too often by your descriptions, generally around every 4th sharp. I lose the log side of the tooth first as a rule, figured it was gigback wear on that side. I use a flat file and an Andrus to try to correct my angle every other time or so.
I'm using Simonds Standall BF 8/9 9/32" bits...So, whats the BF? Either?
My blade is an IKS 46" with 1 hole, no drive pins, I think 32 teeth...I always get confused when I go to take my socks off :D
Ron, what's a spider? can you get a pic of it in use?

Brian_Rhoad

When we had the circular mill we always sharpened, swaged & sharpened. The second sharpening was just a couple light passes. We used a hand crank filer first & a regular file after swaging. Sharpening first makes a big difference in the swaging process. You don't have to hit the swage as hard to spread the tooth because it isn't as thick as it would be dull. I've seen guys use big ball peen hammers to swage. We used a small carpenters hammer & didn't need to hit very hard.We also side dressed the teeth so they were close to all being the same width. I have a special file I made to do this. Side dressing makes the lumber much smoother.

L. Wakefield


QuoteI have a swedge here at the house. On the side of it says swage ::)
So I guess a swedge is really a swage which I thought was a hanging light which is really a chandelier, which sounds like can-o-beer so I say, See ya later Im thirsty and outa here.

   No, I think the hanging light is a swag, and that does kinda sound like swig, which is where you were headed, so don't let me slow you down... but consider this when you've had 1 or 2 or more..keep going til this starts to make sense..swig COULD be used as one of those weird verbs that changes in strange ways as you go through time. Like swig, swag and swug, know wattamean, Vern? I swig it, I swag it yesterday, I have done swug the whole DanG thing and now my head hurts baad and I feel like HANGING from one a them chandeliers..they'll be calling YOU swag, buddy.  lw
L. Wakefield, owner and operator of the beastly truck Heretik, that refuses to stay between the lines when parking

Ron Wenrich

Spider gauge

Top view



Side view



There is an adjustment screw at the top.  You simply screw that to the length you want.  Then just hold it flat against the saw, and measure each tooth.  You will see how much to take off or add to make all the teeth the same.  You can easily find that wild tooth.  Costs about $20.

Saw gigging on the return?  Sounds like your saw might have a tendency to saw out.  That could mean worn out trucks on the carriage, you could use some more lead, or your guides aren't adjusted quite right.  

One quick remedy is to shorten the board side on the teeth.  You could have them swaged too hard on that side.  I just take a quick stroke off of the side of each tooth, and that usually straightens the saw out.  Vertical edgers will tell you when you are sawing off line real quick.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Jeff Lesak

The number of teeth you run in a circular saw depends mostly on horsepower. It takes 5 to 10 hp per tooth in the cut to run a circular saw. The bigger the diameter, the more power. In the old days, when horsepower was hard to come by, fewer teeth in the saw was the norm. The idea that a large gullet capacity saw is a soft wood saw is likely because you can feed faster in soft wood, and therefore need a bigger gullet capacity to hold the chips. A saw with a larger gullet capacity (B #3 pattern, for example) has fewer teeth as thay take more space on the rim to accomadate the bigger gullet. I'm not sure what you mean by "clean fast enough".
It is a general rule of thumb that the more teeth, the faster the feed, as long as you have the horsepower. (Remember, 5-10 HP/tooth in the cut) I don't think the saw should act any different in hard or soft wood. You should be able to push it just as hard.

Jeff Lesak

The number of teeth you run in a circular saw depends mostly on horsepower. It takes 5 to 10 hp per tooth in the cut to run a circular saw. The bigger the diameter, the more power. In the old days, when horsepower was hard to come by, fewer teeth in the saw was the norm. The idea that a large gullet capacity saw is a soft wood saw is likely because you can feed faster in soft wood, and therefore need a bigger gullet capacity to hold the chips. A saw with a larger gullet capacity (B #3 pattern, for example) has fewer teeth as thay take more space on the rim to accomadate the bigger gullet. I'm not sure what you mean by "clean fast enough".
It is a general rule of thumb that the more teeth, the faster the feed, as long as you have the horsepower. (Remember, 5-10 HP/tooth in the cut) I don't think the saw should act any different in hard or soft wood. You should be able to push it just as hard.

Don P

Thanks for the pics Ron. How did you know I always seem to have one wild tooth, that looks like the antibiotic :D

I think I read somewhere that a tooth is supposed to remove 1/10" of wood, or the feed should advance 1/10" per tooth however you look at it, more teeth feeds faster, requires more HP.

Turning that upside down, If I remove the cutting portion and only saw with every other tooth. Will this solve my low HP problem? ( I'm still huntin, my junk buddy sold his tt load of motors for scrap :'()

.

Corley5

The term cleaning may have been misleading.  What happened under a faster feed was the saw lodged in the log.  Locked right up and smoked the drive belt.  I was almost through the the log and after getting the engine shut down I was able to pull up on the board and break it off.  The gullets were completely full half way through the log.  This was a 14 inch black cherry.  I was apparently feeding too fast.  I slowed my feed rate up and never had any more problems.  The old saw with more teeth never did this.  The saw I speak of never did this on softwood like aspen, cedar etc.  I'm running about 70hp on it.  
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

Ron Wenrich

Corley

What you did was hang the saw.  It usually comes from feeding too fast.  Your gullets fill up with dust and just stops stops the saw.  

I did that a few times when I first started sawing.  Loose belts can be a problem as well.  But, it is really rough on a saw.  

I listen to my saw.  When I hear it bogging down, I back off.  I try to maintain the same sound straight through the cut.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Jeff Lesak

Don P
Yes, removing every other tooth would reduce the number of teeth cutting by half, and therfore need half the power. Better to put a "nubbin" bit in the "blank" socket so as to protect the socket from ware.

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