Hourly Rate

[ncsawyer]

I sawed an 8.5 hour job Saturday.  It was all white oak and we were cutting mostly 2 inch thick, live edge boards so he got my normal $70/hour rate. He's about 60 miles away so I charged a travel/setup fee as well.  The funny thing is, that there is a guy with a Woodmizer about 15 minutes from his place that I see advertising on Craigslist.  He looks like he has an older mill and his add states that he saws for $40/hour. 

My customer had called the other guy several times and left messages, but could never get the guy to call him back. Its hard for me to believe that anybody would run their mill for that cheap.  Sure $40/hour is enough to cover your blade and fuel, but is doesn't leave much for fixed costs or the sawyer. 

But as the customer said, "It's easier to pay somebody $70/hour that will show up and work, than it is to pay somebody $40/hour that won't even call you back"

[Magicman]

On several of my road trips this year I have passed very closely to other sawmills and also FF members.  That is one reason that I don't indicate the town or even the direction that I am traveling. 

I agree, it's not the cost.  Not taking advantage of advertising, not returning calls, and poor quality sawing has left many sawmills idle.

[thecfarm]

Might be so busy at $40 an hour,he has all the business he wants.
I do not saw for others,but I know I would not do it for $40 an hour.
I get talking to my FIL about charging a certain price. As tell him,I can stay home and dig rocks and make more money than that. His come back is,No money in digging rocks. So I say,Starting to understand now,ain't ya?  ;)

[47sawdust]

It also depends on what type of mill you run.With my Lt30 non-hydraulic I wouldn't think  of charging $70 an hour.In Vermont the portable market is flooded.I just stay home and saw for my own construction business and odd ball stuff that my friends and neighbors bring.We have lots of oddballs in Vermont,maybe you've noticed.

[killamplanes]

I am fortunate with an electric mill its stationary :D. I get a fair amount of calls to cut logs and I just tell them to bring me the logs and that detours 80% of them my only problem is the other 20%. But I never liked custom sawing, I have plenty of my own milling that I can hardly keep up with. But I believe theres money in it if done correctly. Its just not for me even at 70hr. I live in my own world though....

[Sandtown Sawmil]

I have an LT28 woodmizer. What would be a fair price to charge by the hour in my neck of the woods? I sure dont want to over chage customers but then I don't want go broke either.

[4x4American]

I have an LT28 woodmizer. What would be a fair price to charge by the hour in my neck of the woods? I sure dont want to over chage customers but then I don't want go broke either.

I think the best way to do it is figure it out what it is you need to get per hour to make it worthwhile to you to do the job.  And then if the customer wants to hire you they will and if they won't they won't.

[Magicman]

Your situation is a kinda "catch 22" situation, Sandtown.  I would expect that your log handling would be slower than a full flown hydraulic sawmill so your lumber yield per hour will probably be less.  But then you probably worked harder to produce that lumber which is not the customer's fault.  It is a balancing act so that the customer gets a full measure of value for his $$$.

[4x4American]

And MM is right.  There is a guy here local with an LT15, he's a retired timber framer, and mainly uses it for himself.  But when he gets people who ask him to saw for them, he'll do it for $100/hr.  And like he says, the amount of work that it takes to run that sawmill he won't fire it up for a penny less.  If they hire him or not is their choice.  He isn't trying to do it for a living or really even for a business.  And that's perfectly fine.

[Sandtown Sawmil]

Thanks for the info! I saw on the side for extra income. I'll just have to set an hourly rate and stick with it! The only problem I see around this area is people not wanting to pay what I ask!

[Magicman]

There is always the board foot rate.   :P

[Chop Shop]

There is always the board foot rate.   :P

Thats how I roll.   If Im slow its not the customers problem to pay more.  If im fast, I get a raise.

But I have a MD and can lay lumber on the ground fast.   Then take a nice long lunch.

[OlJarhead]

I started with an LT10 (trailerized and I called it the SM-LT10) and charged $50/hr.  I worked very hard for that and had to have a lot of help.

When I moved to the LT40 Hydraulic I upped my rates to $75/hr local and $85/hr remote (beyond 50 miles) but found most of my work was remote and now only charge $85/hr.

I've met my goal for the year and am happy with the amount of work I get but in all fairness I don't seem to have much competition.  However, on one job I got that was 130 miles away there were two others willing to do the work.  one at $60/hr and one at $100.  I got the job in part because I went to a Forest Owners Field Day and demo'd the mill and in part because of all the information I provided (before getting the job) on milling and drying lumber etc as well as my constant and quick replies to questions etc.  The customer advised that he was happy with my rate and production.

In the end my philosophy is that the market will decide what is a fair price.  Either customers will pay your rates or they won't and you can and should adjust accordingly.  I find that if I am prepared to explain what my board footage rates run vs hourly it helps too as some do quote bf rates out here but I won't work by the board foot.  For one, I've learned that customers don't always have the logs required to produce 300bf/hr even though the mill can do it.  For example, on my last job I did just about 2200bf in just under 8 hours but that was with one log that scaled out at 461 and some logs scaling out at just 50bf and I find it hard to produce good numbers with small logs.  Sure I can rip thro0ugh them if I am milling alone or have a good crew but even 4 50bf logs per hour is still only 200bf/hr....whereas if I have all 200 to 500bf logs I can produce a lot more per hour and my hourly rates are LOWER than anyones bf rate.

In the end it's about who's willing to work hard, communicate, keep the customer happy and be where they say they will when they say they will be there.

I also live by this philosophy:  my customers work hard for their money so I better work harder to earn it from them

I also look at what a mechanic costs.  It can cost anywhere from $75 to $125/hr for a mechanic in a decent shop or dealership to work on your car so it isn't like charging in that range is anything different and you do have an expensive mill to pay for and maintain as well as a wage to earn.

Lastly, someone here (maybe MM or Peter Droin) told me once:  you don't want the customers who won't pay your wage or try to get you to reduce it and I agree now 100%!  This is my rate, this is what I charge.  That's it.

Not to say I don't give people a break later though.  For example I charge $40/band for Bi-Metals if I hit nails...on a recent job I hit a nail, change the band and a little later hit a few nails.  I decided to charge them for only one band and they were thrilled (and might have me back now too)....it's a risk but I think worth it at times.  I also do other things if I can, like I cut a big cookie on a recent job off a stump just for fun because it was a short day and I wanted to run the big saw.  I didn't charge extra for it but hadn't milled my min of 4 hours either so it was a wash.

I won't drag my mill for less than 4 hours of work and if it's a long ways away (150miles or more) I won't go for less than 8 hrs.  I charge mileage over 50 (changing to 30 in the new year) one way and I charge 1 hr for delivery and setup.

I don't do this as my only job though (I have a reg full time gig) but I won't do it without earning a decent wage either.  In my mind I need to earn 33% of what the mill earns as a wage, 33% for mill operations/business and 33% for taxes....so to earn at least $25/hr I'd have to charge $75/hr on the job...I charge a little more than that but I'm getting the work at that rate so I'm not complaining ;)

Remember:  your time, your physical effort, your health etc are all part of the cost of doing business.  You have to work hard to mill lumber, you have to provide the equipment and tools, maintain it and drag it behind a truck to the job site etc etc....allot that takes time and money and time is money.  I may only charge for an 8 hour day plus mileage and setup but it might take me 2 hours to get there and 2 hours to get home....that's a 12 hr day which can cut that $85/hr down to a little over $60/hr if you add in setup to the hourly rate.....bear that in mind too.  After all, who's paying for your drive to and from the site?  Maintenance time at home?  Resharp and new blade fees?  Maintenance on the mill?  Insurance n the truck and mill?  etc etc etc

[Crossroads]

At this point in my milling "career" I haven't felt like I could charge more than $350 1000/ bf or $30 per hr with a $50 set up fee. The big factor for me is my experience or lack of. Until about a year ago, I had never worked or been around a sawmill. So, at this point I'm getting paid for my education. Also, there are several other mills in my area who have more experience and hydraulics that work for $40-50/hr. Working alone with a manual mill, I only cut about 800bf a day, but I'm getting faster with each job and eventually I'll raise my prices.

[OlJarhead]

Understood ;)  At 35c/bf ($350/Mbf) I could make $105 an hour though on Sunday I would have been at $99/hr....so at $85/hr I'm charging less per hour but I have an LT40 Hydraulic and can mill up over 500bf/hr if I have the right logs...usually though I run in the 200 to 300 range and it all depends on the logs and help.

[bkaimwood]

I don't do this as my only job though (I have a reg full time gig) but I won't do it without earning a decent wage either.  In my mind I need to earn 33% of what the mill earns as a wage, 33% for mill operations/business and 33% for taxes....so to earn at least $25/hr I'd have to charge $75/hr on the job...I charge a little more than that but I'm getting the work at that rate so I'm not complaining

Great write up, OLJH...I mentioned the 1/3 rule of business management a while back, and it seemed no one ever heard of it. I can't remember what post. It is slightly different in terms of dispensements, but is not far off, and has served me well. I learned it in college, in a business management course....

[4x4American]

I remember someone had learned me on here about the 1/3 rule of owning your own small biz.  And for awhile after, I used to take 1/3 of any pay.  Now I take maybe 1/6th and the rest goes to logs  :D :D :D

[OlJarhead]

I don't do this as my only job though (I have a reg full time gig) but I won't do it without earning a decent wage either.  In my mind I need to earn 33% of what the mill earns as a wage, 33% for mill operations/business and 33% for taxes....so to earn at least $25/hr I'd have to charge $75/hr on the job...I charge a little more than that but I'm getting the work at that rate so I'm not complaining

Great write up, OLJH...I mentioned the 1/3 rule of business management a while back, and it seemed no one ever heard of it. I can't remember what post. It is slightly different in terms of dispensements, but is not far off, and has served me well. I learned it in college, in a business management course....

Wasn't sure who it was that said it but now that you mentioned it, yes it was your post that got me thinking that way too...but as a subcontractor a while back I ran 2/3rds to 1/3rd (2/3rds to me 1/3 for taxes) as I didn't have any expenses really...now with the mill I run it 1/3 each but know that in the end that's just a rough way of doing things that will make sure I have taxes at the end of the year, plenty of operating expenses, unforseen expenses (like rebuilding a chainsaw ;) ) etc and of course a decent wage which in my case goes back to the mill.

[ppine]

Service is really important and wins lots of jobs.
The forest products industry is full of small-time operators that are notoriously hard to reach, and even harder to get to show up.

Mostly I just hire people to sell me fire wood now.  I will gladly pay more per cord for a guy that is dependable and doesn't try to short me.  Answering phone calls, showing up on time, and bringing a quality product can easily separate contractors from the herd.

I have had people bring me a load of wood in the back of a pick-up with no sides and tell me it is a cord.
Sometimes the wood is so green it looks like it was cut last week.
Some guys can't even tell the species apart. One brought a load of white fir and called it lodgepole pine.

Your word has to mean something. Tell the truth, under promise and over delivery and you will have a loyal following.

[OlJarhead]

Your word has to mean something. Tell the truth, under promise and over delivery and you will have a loyal following.

This!  Absolutely!

[bkaimwood]

Amen...good, solid, sound advice all around...

[Sandtown Sawmil]

Thanks for all the information it's very helpful!

[Delawhere Jack]

I run an LT40HD and have been charging $70/hr since Jan 1, 2014. In 130 jobs I've had one client who tried to beat me down on my rate. The others never batted an eye, and many of them gave me a nice tip. I'm considering raising my rate to $80/hr.

[Okrafarmer]

Several thoughts.

1. It's already been said, but your own individual situation should dictate what you charge.
2. You think you don't have expenses? You do, if you paid more than about $1,000 for your mill. It's called depreciation. If you don't know how to account for it, you should learn. It will really help out with your tax returns. If you paid $10,000 for your mill, that's quite a bit of depreciation you can actually collect on it. that will bring your taxes down a good bit, whether it's figured into one year (usually not) or several years, it will help. A tax professional can help you figure it out-- probably some of the people here on the Forum can show you how it works.
3. One of the key issues is-- how much do you feel happy making per hour? If you didn't pay much for your mill, and your expenses, including depreciation, are low, you might charge a cheap price, like one guy I convinced recently to go up from $25 an hour total, to $30 an hour total. He has a twenty-year-old, paid for, well used manual bandmill. He keeps it well maintained, and I really feel he could charge a little more, maybe $40. But as I said, his expenses are very low, and he may feel very comfortatble earning $20-25 /hr. for himself, and the rest going toward the expenses. His taxes are quite low due to family size and income level anyway, and he does the milling part time. I used to charge $40 / hr. for the manual band mill I used to operate, but I was not the owner. Basically I got around $15 / hr, and the owner got the rest. That was ok, because that was the wage I was earning anyway. When I stepped up to the 20-year-old WM LT-40 hydraulic, I charged $50 / hr. It had some mechanical issues and was nowhere near as efficient as a brand new one. If I mill again, I will let you know my pricing-- and it will probably be in that range, depending on what I have.
4. The area you live in-- relative expenses. We all know that living in rural Arkansas, Mississippi, or South Carolina is a lot cheaper than living in the middle of New York City. An urban sawyer in the Bronx might feel like he needs an hourly wage for his labor of $100 / hr. to make it worth it, in addition to his expenses. Or more. A guy in rural cottonwood / sweetgum land might feel like he can make a good living off $15-20 / hour for his labor. Or less. It's simply perspective.

[4x4American]

   Okrafarmer

[red]

If you saw for Cheap it quickly becomes starvation wages . You have lots of work but when something breaks you can't afford to fix it . Tell you customers you want to be in business next year and the year after.

[4x4American]

If you saw for Cheap it quickly becomes starvation wages . You have lots of work but when something breaks you can't afford to fix it . Tell you customers you want to be in business next year and the year after.

That's good advice that I need to remember

[Okrafarmer]

If you saw for Cheap it quickly becomes starvation wages . You have lots of work but when something breaks you can't afford to fix it . Tell you customers you want to be in business next year and the year after.

This is indeed true, but remember that starvation wage for one man is slick pockets wage for a man in a different situation.

[Timster]

An urban sawyer in the Bronx

After an initial chuckle it got me thinking just what would a sawyer saw in the Bronx. There are few trees that are not in city parks and I doubt you could find any tree that did not contain iron.

:D :D :D

[Okrafarmer]

True. Just saying.  :D

[OlJarhead]

If you saw for Cheap it quickly becomes starvation wages . You have lots of work but when something breaks you can't afford to fix it . Tell you customers you want to be in business next year and the year after.

No matter what you charge a new spare tire is at least $200 or so...new bands?  $$$.....replacement belts, various odds and sods, a blown up chainsaw...you get the picture. 

I could charge less but then I couldn't fix stuff that broke when it did and at that point I'd be done.  No sense in it.  For me it's about sustainability.  The business must be able to pay me a wage, pay for all it's own expenses and put money away after taxes for those times when there isn't any business.

[carykong]

I did remote sawing with my old LT25 a few years ago an charged $45/hr. If I provided a helper, $65/hr.  If my loader was on site $200 per day. 

I had a job with a large company for a week in which they provided a skidstear and three helpers.  All I did was move the cutting head back and forth and up and down. Only charged $45/hour. They wore me out. Production was high. It was a true pardnership with the client.

[4x4American]

I don't get to set the prices for the wholesale market, but I may rethink my pricing for portable/custom sawing.  The way I'm set up now, I'm under cover, I have a whole work flow setup, and for me to move all my stuff to a job within 1 hours drive away, I would lose a whole or maybe half day sawing, twice.  So the past few portable jobs I've been asked about, I told them $500 will get me there, set up, and back outta there.  The way I see it, I will lose two days sawing the wholesale stuff and it ain't worth it to me otherwise.  So far that figure has scared people away, and I'm tickled about it.  8)

[red]

But you also have to think about the Big Picture .  Are you ok not doing any portable milling . Then why have a portable sawmill ? Just going for one day with a pickup truck and sawmill you should be able to price accordingly. You run the sawmill they provide labor. Keep it Simple.

[Dave Shepard]

It's not a portable sawmill if you let the sawdust build up around the wheels. ;D

[Magicman]

I am totally portable but very seldom charge hourly rate.  ERC and special cuts such as beams/mantels only.  Travel and setup takes care of, well travel and setup.   ;D

[Okrafarmer]

Around these parts, it would be rare for a customer to have 1,000 bf to mill all at once. I had three or four customers who did, and made some good money doing their logs. But nobody had a whack of really great logs just sitting there in their prime. I once capped my rates to 50 c per bf, and just about lost my shirt.

[Tom the Sawyer]

In my area, mobile milling services are quite rare.  When someone checks the state sawmill listing (or many on-line resources), they'll find plenty of 'portable' mills - most of which never move.  Other than a weekender chainsaw mill who I work with on oversized logs,  there are no other actve, portable sawmills working in my service area (18,000 square miles).

I'm 65, wouldn't mind if someone else started up in the next few years.  ;) ;)

[4x4American]

But you also have to think about the Big Picture .  Are you ok not doing any portable milling . Then why have a portable sawmill ? Just going for one day with a pickup truck and sawmill you should be able to price accordingly. You run the sawmill they provide labor. Keep it Simple.

I think I'll be ok. I am going on tour with the sawmill in the next few weeks, for a friend, who I told I would do a portable job back when I was slow, now I'm fast and don't wanna do it but gonna honor my word. He is a logger, has a good sized mechanized operation.  Has more iron than most loggers haha.  I think 5 skidders, hydro ax feller buncher, tracked buncher, two loaders, stroke delimber, big butt chipper, dozer, excavator, western star trucks, etc.  Anyways he said he has 6mbf for me to saw out for him and I was gonna do it in trade for a truck and maybe pup of nice chestnut oak.  Then I have a couple mbf job for a guy who did some work for me, pine for a shop.  Then 2 min down the rd from that I have a job of a lot of rotten pine logs that I'm supposed to pick out the best ones and saw him out siding for a 200x50' shop.  Then there's a guy up the road from my sawmill, and then there's my neighbor where I live has a couple thousand feet.  And once I'm back from going on tour, I'm telling people the same thing, $500 or wait til I go on tour again  :D


I am thinking that in the future I want to keep this 40 super I have now for mainly portable work, and then get a bigger stationary setup for cranking out production grade/ties/pallet stock.  I will see where I am at in a few years and go from there.  Heck I might even hire someone to run one of the sawmills.  Maybe I'll have a few people working for me, maybe I'll stay just me, who the heck knows  :D   Just gonna take it day by day...

[/size]
[/size]

It's not a portable sawmill if you let the sawdust build up around the wheels. ;D

That's right!  :D   Boy do I despise cleaning out from under that sawmill.


Last week my edger got so full underneath it that the chains started plugging up and almost popped off, I heard a thump and after I heard it again I shut her down.  I ended up hooking to it and driving away and the neighbor come by with his loader and cleaned her out.

[killamplanes]

Just have to say my mill has wheels lights etc. But it's electric so portability not so good. But I never wanted to tempt myself on going portable. Just me but I can just the same custom cut logs hourly or by bdft. And the great thing about having logs brought to your place is that your in your comfort zone, equipnent, and if there's a break down you say the heck with it and walk to the house and try again tommorrow.  Most mills have a reduced price for logs brought to them. Atleast what I've seen...

[Okrafarmer]

With the LT40 I always charged the same hourly rate for mobile jobs as for stationary, but I required a minimum of $400. So even if the hourly rate didn't come to $400, I still got $400. Mostly people just brought the logs to me.

[OlJarhead]

With the LT40 I always charged the same hourly rate for mobile jobs as for stationary, but I required a minimum of $400. So even if the hourly rate didn't come to $400, I still got $400. Mostly people just brought the logs to me.

My min is $425 (4hrs plus mobile setup fee)

[4x4American]

My idea was that they can hire a log truck/pup for $400 or so, so they'd be farther ahead to bring the logs to me.

[Peter Drouin]

4x4 you have to make up your mind. Do I go or stay.
To do both at the same time, you lose your shirt.

At one time I was going to have two mills. One here, one on the road. So if it's raining I can work here under a roof. With sunshine, I would work on the road.
But, I had customers come to the house when I was on the road and want something.

Money was coming to me at home, So why was I on the road?
For me here It was to stay and build a business here.  In the beginning, it was tough.

[Magicman]

Hourly rate and bf rates should equal out to ~the same.  For example, the difference between the two yesterday was $12.

[drobertson]

Hourly rate and bf rates should equal out to ~the same.  For example, the difference between the two yesterday was $12.

Could not be said any planer, for a steady as you go pace.
Log size I believe is the variable, I would be cheating myself by charging a flat hourly rate, where as by the bdft there can be some exceptional pay days, plus, to me it seems more tangiable  in that most plans will use the bdft as a measure
For material lists. This may not make sense 

[Magicman]

I should have noted that this was sawing 1" lumber.  When sawing framing lumber the bf rate tilts heavily in my direction because theoretically you make half as many passes.  In actuality, it is not doubled, but probably more like 25% better.  The log handling is the same regardless of the lumber thickness.

[OlJarhead]

Hourly rate and bf rates should equal out to ~the same.  For example, the difference between the two yesterday was $12.

Love ya man!  But here is where I'm not sure I agree at all.

Your rates should be what the market will bear.

However, let's look at some examples: 
1.  200 logs, no help, all logs are around 40bf....I milled around 1125bf/day and earned $600/day (I was charging less because this job was closer to home -- at the time I charged $10/hr less if I was within 50 miles of my home) which worked out to 53c/bf.  That's HIGH!  But I knew it was going to be because I was milling alone (not the agreement) with small logs and the last day I was milling stuff (the customer showed up then for a couple/few hours) that was 4 foot long and even shorter for various things he wanted (so the day production went down to just over 800bf)......If I charged by the bf on that job I'd lose money unless I charged 53c/bf but I've heard people charging mostly 30c/bf for softwood.  That means the job would have been $2700 for the 8 days of effort with me commuting 45 miles each way to the job every day and working my butt off, alone, milling up 200 logs that barely scaled 40bf ea...vs the $4800 I earned because I charged by the hour and clearly spelled out my rates etc up front.  Customer was happy, so the market would and did bear that rate.

2.  Milled up 4500bf in two days with much bigger logs and great help.  Average 2250 per day and earned $680/day (job was 125 miles from home) which worked out to 30c/bf so the hourly rate and bf rates matched.

The way I see it is that charging by the board foot is only good when you have the right logs, site and customer to ensure you'll be making good production the duration of the job.  Perhaps this is why a local (Methow) miller charges 50c/bf for softwoods and works alone.  He knows he's not going to produce a lot and make a lot per hour but he also knows he won't lose his shirt ;) 

For me, charging 50c/bf I'd make a killing on those jobs I'm milling at a faster rate.  I milled 283bf/hr on my last job (still not the best but with the logs I had and because I let the customer decide what they want to mill -- i.e. they can change it at any time -- during the day it can get a little slower if they want to look at something different etc) and at 50c/bf I would have earned $140/hr vs my $85.....at .30c/bf I would have earned $85/hr but on jobs where my production goes up over 300bf/hr I'd make over $100....

So it's a double edged sword.  At 30c/bf for softwoods you could make $42/hr or $105/hr all depending on the logs and help vs. you could earn a set hourly rate regardless of the logs, people are used to hourly rates (that's what their mechanic charges them), if they help it saves them a lot of money, etc etc....

Maybe I'm just a rookie but it seems to me it's about what the market can bear first, and then about what you can bear second; keeping in mind that you have maintenance on the mill, your truck, fuel, bands to resharp, tools to buy, that chainsaw to fix, insurance etc etc...

[OlJarhead]

Maybe what MM meant was on production jobs?  When straight milling 1x's etc with logs that scale out more than 40bf and a crew yanking them off the mill as they get sawn up?

That would make sense because I generally find those jobs the BF rate (if .30c for softwoods) often match my hourly rates (if $85/hr)

[Magicman]

There is no question that you are correct in your sawing situation because your hourly rate includes much more than sawing.  It's not necessarily termed "what the market will bear" because your labor is included.  Just fair wages for the job done.

My situation is entirely different.  I never saw alone.  The customer always provides help and there is almost always a tractor with FEL/forks on the site.   Notice that there were three tail gunners on yesterday's job and they were all working.  I never touched the sawdust scoop, a slab, or any lumber.

[Bandmill Bandit]

I know that since I have gone to strictly the hourly rate I don't have to worry about how I will pay for my next box of bands and the rest of my operational costs.

Every time I have sawed by the BF I have barely broke even because the guy does not want to pay for the second cut slabs, 1 inch material because he wanted all 2 inch stuff or edging etc etc. If guy wants me to saw by the BF he is almost always a chincy bugger that wants you to pay him to cut his logs. I dont even quote a BF rate and if he want to figure it out on is his own that is his prerogative. He still pays by the hour. NO exceptions any more for any one!     

[OlJarhead]

Thanks MM (and Bandit)....that makes sense to me as I don't just mill.  I load the logs (roll them off the deck to the mill), often off-bear the lumber, clean up during the day, buck off limbs, buck logs shorter, mill 'on demand' (meaning I will let the customer choose if he wants something different on the spot) and just about do whatever I can for the customer.  I see it as a service, I'm there, I have chainsaws, chains, a truck, and a strong body so if they want me to cut a cookie off a big stump I'll do it, if they need me to buck limbs etc I do it...

[Carson-saws]

OlJarhead......I'm thinkin you pretty much nailed it Sir.  Do you charge mileage as well?

[OlJarhead]

OlJarhead......I'm thinkin you pretty much nailed it Sir.  Do you charge mileage as well?

Currently I charge $1/mile over 50 from my location though I think I'll change it to over 30 next year.

[Magicman]

This very vividly illustrates how different our markets are as well as our billing strategy's for meeting those markets. 

To say, "I just bought a sawmill so tell me how to make money" is like buying a ticket to go to the moon.  It does not work that way.  Sawing skills have to be mastered and markets have to be developed.

[OlJarhead]

I should add that what I mean by "what the market will bear" is that you could charge $200/hr if you wanted but there may not be anyone willing to pay that....whereas you could also charge $20/hr and maybe you'd get more business than you could handle.

You may be in an area where there are a dozen mills willing to travel all over the state and as such you have a lot of competition so charging more than everyone else will likely cost you work, unless of course you have a stellar reputation -- even still, if you charge $100/hr and I charge $75/hr I might get more work simply because people want to save money.

On the other hand, if you have two dozen mills in the area you may not get much work for even $75/hr -- the market won't bear it because someone else is going to mill for $45/hr....

VS. you could be where I am and there are almost no mills around willing to drive 100-150 miles one way to your logs...as such you can charge more and possibly not lose any work.

I've had a lot of calls that did not pan out into jobs but I've had a lot of jobs too so it's a balance.

I'll also mention that at least on two jobs I had competition but won out.  On the first the other miller said he'd mill for share (50/50) but never answered calls and said he couldn't mill burned logs...I got the job at $75/hr and milled up 6000bf.  On another there were three of us:  one at $60/hr, one at $105/hr and myself and all with similar mills I'm told.  I got the job at $85/hr (and slept in a tent overnight) and was told that because I was in the middle, very responsive to questions, calls, emails etc and demo'd my mill at a field day it made the customer confident that I'd be the right choice and when I was done I was told I'd be back.

So my point is that the market (customers) really decide what you can charge and actually earn a living etc because either they will pay it or they won't.

[OlJarhead]

This very vividly illustrates how different our markets are as well as our billing strategy's for meeting those markets. 

To say, "I just bought a sawmill so tell me how to make money" is like buying a ticket to go to the moon.  It does not work that way.  Sawing skills have to be mastered and markets have to be developed.

AMEN!

When I started trying to mill for others I was dipping my toe in the market really (thanks to you and others on the forum) and charged less, produced less and ultimately didn't last long because my equipment wasn't up to the task (couldn't produce like I can now) but I learned a lot.

When I restarted the business with the new mill I spent a lot of time familiarizing myself with it and increasing my production rates and every job I went out on I tracked and compared to others to see if i was at least producing at a reasonable rate for what I charged.

I also worked very hard, and always do still, to produce good lumber.  This takes study and time...and to study you need a teacher and that is where FF comes in.

Today, after what? 6 years or so of milling I'm still a novice compared to Peter Droin, MM, Bandit and others here but I do everything I can to learn from them always!  I read a lot more of the forum than I post in (surprise surprise) because if someone posts about locust, birch, tulip whatever I want to know what they did, what trouble they had, how it dried, etc etc etc so that I can provide better service to my customers.

Also, if I have a problem that I was not prepared for (like when I did not have spare B57's) I don't charge the customer mileage or setup to return since it isn't their fault I have to leave.  I also try to always do more on a job.  My motto is "You work hard for your money, so I better work harder to earn it from you!".

[Magicman]

You are "spot on" my friend.   

It has been interesting to watch your sawing operation/business grow from a question to a success.  You have progressed from a CSM, to a manual bandmill, and now finally to your present setup.  Each step has been made with hesitation as well as anticipation and with a good mix of common sense.   :P

You setting and meeting your goals has been rewarding for us all. 

[OlJarhead]

Thanks MM....so much to learn but thanks to you and others I'm getting there.

I will say to anyone wanting to do this it's hard work.  I come in after an 8hr day of milling and an hour or more to the site (and back) beat up and feeling my age!   :D but I enjoy it and love meeting people as well as working hard to accomplish something.  It's rewarding work

In the long run I hope to actually draw a wage from my work (since now I don't because I'm using everything I earn to run the business and pay for equipment etc) but I can see it doing that.  Today the business pays for itself now 100% whereas in the beginning I funded all expenses out of my regular job and that to me is the key.  It takes money and time to get started and in my mind the goal is that it pays a salary and pays for itself to run or it isn't worth it.

[Bandmill Bandit]

The geographical differences on this great continent create very different conditions and types of wood species and different need for said wood. The colder the climate the greater the urgency to get the logs milled in the better weather AND the cold does reduce competition too.

MM is bang on for the reasons he operates as he does in the region he lives and oljar and I are about 7 hours apart and our markets are quite similar to each others BUT he gets better logs than I do as a rule. It takes some experience which all 3 of us and many others on this forum have developed with the help of many of the members here, to know how to meet the needs of the clients we serve and what our service is worth.

The most important thing I have learned is that under priced is a LOT worse to your business than over priced.

If someone doesn't hire me because he thinks I am over priced, My mill dont cost me a cent sitting in the back yard. It paid for it self long ago. IF i am out cutting a job that doent pay me $30 an hour wage AND $60 to $70 an hour for my investment, depreciation, operational cost and expertise, I'd be much better sitting at home reading the forum.

Eric; dont know if you have got one yet but a out feed roll table and board return REALLY reduce the hardest part of the labor and increase production quite a bit too.

In good consistent logs I can keep 2 guys pumpin hard to keep the lumber stacked and another guy to remove trash and keep the roll way loaded. 

[WV Sawmiller]

   My thoughts are on establishing an hourly rate is once you get enough experience sawing to determine what is a pretty fair average bf/hour estimate assuming good conditions and good wood for you and your equipment then convert that to $/hr and use that as an hourly rate.

    When cutting under perfect conditions the customer may save a little money using an hourly rate but under less that perfect conditions the sawyer still makes a decent wage (I.e. What he would have made under decent conditions).

    That is kind of what I thought MM meant earlier in this thread where he indicated something to the effect that should be roughly the same. May not have been his exact intent but was the way I read it.

    I understand the customer often preferring a bf rate, not because he is trying to save money or beat up the sawyer but simply because that is terms he can understand and budget for the work.

[Magicman]

Correct Howard.  If a customer hesitates, (very seldom) I will offer to figure it both ways and give him the lesser of the two.  At the end of the job, they will usually insist that I charge the larger amount or tip me the difference.

Honesty begets honesty.   ;)

[Brian C.]

We charge hourly and have yet to have a complaint. Our mill is manual and with two of us we do a pretty fair job being about the same in cost as bd ft. We also tell them that the more they help the soon we can get done.
A few have just let us go by ourselves, but they usually hang around and help out. Keeps their cost down.

[ncsawyer]

The most important thing I have learned is that under priced is a LOT worse to your business than over priced.

If someone doesn't hire me because he thinks I am over priced, My mill dont cost me a cent sitting in the back yard. It paid for it self long ago. IF i am out cutting a job that doent pay me $30 an hour wage AND $60 to $70 an hour for my investment, depreciation, operational cost and expertise, I'd be much better sitting at home reading the forum.

In one of my business classes in grad school, one of my teachers was a consultant.  He said that the best advice he could give any small business is to raise your price.  His point was that most business under sale themselves and don't charge enough.

I do have some fixed cost associated with by milling operation, so it does cost me a little to let my mill sit (depreciation, insurance, and the like). So I like to keep the mill going as much as possible. But I don't take on every job that comes my way.  If its a job that I am not particularly excited about, (long way from home, low quality and small logs) I will price it high enough to make it worth the headache.  Most of the time I don't get those jobs.  ;D

[Carson-saws]

I don't know how it may change area to area or state to state...but...$100.00 per hour min.2 hours...$1.00 per mile from home base to job site.  Cust buys first blade....will metal detect for $40.00 or not...if not each blade cost the cust should the blade be damaged beyond reasonable cut grade.

Before the job is set up it is explained how the logs should be staged in order to decrease handling time.  If the logs need to be moved within an area the cust. can rent our skidsteer service for mileage to job site and charged either for min. 2 hours or Hobbs time.

[Chop Shop]

In one of my business classes in grad school, one of my teachers was a consultant.  He said that the best advice he could give any small business is to raise your price.  His point was that most business under sale themselves and don't charge enough.

When my father started in bizz in 1962 he was very busy and not making very much money.  He always speaks of an early customer that gave him good advice.  He said my father was too cheap and very good at his trade.  My dad said, "thats why I stay very busy".  The man said, "no thats how you go broke or get burnt out"   He told my dad to double his price.  "You will only have to do half the work for the same pay and the customers willing to pay it will be twice as pleasant to deal with".

My father is 78 and still booked a year in advance and we cant talk him into retiring!