Are you guys seeing any changes or heard anything? Just curious.
Not in the loop at the moment, but Log Street Journal posted on FB that prices were soaring due to renovation demand. I don't know the validity of that. I may be cutting some nice hardwood this fall if the prices are decent.
Only good logs info but here it is: RO has popped back up with the exporters% $800 for 2-3 side clear stuff and 1500 for good butts. Hickory doing ok, WO still strong. Canadian mills desperate for wood, they'll truck many times- for you guys in MI I bet that's not a terrible option. All in all yes. Not sure what Sugar Maple is doing right now, maybe @ehp (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=1195) could chime in.
Pnw softwood markets are hot. Hardwood not so much
If it's going to get good again October should be the month. Got a load of r.oak/ash baking here and 'my' buyer won't come for less than a truck and pup.
I can definitively tell you after thursday, hope to ship 3 triaxle load of decent wood. Buyer has told me to stay out of the good wood, real nice maple, after Halloween it's supposed to really come back.
Interesting. Seems you here good and bad. That's what I'm I'm told here lol "We can't pay a lot but we need it bad when can we get it"
Southern Pine log prices are not increasing. Plenty of supply. Lumber market is hot, though.
So its like southern beef prices then?
Empty shelves at peak prices but down for the grower. Something in the middle doesnt make sense. Like every other covid anomoly.
Quote from: mike_belben on August 25, 2020, 06:36:26 AM
So its like southern beef prices then?
Empty shelves at peak prices but down for the grower. Something in the middle doesnt make sense. Like every other covid anomoly.
I think a lot of that is going on now. I'm seeing a little more iron for sale too. Everyone is working so I think it's just spare machines they want to get sold before the buyers are broke.
With money dilution coming on strong in the coming years theyre gonna see their old iron prices double and wish they kept em to sell at the new price. Same as everyone on earth said about their chevelle or dart or skylark etc etc. Im not saying an old skidder is worth more but rather the future dollars are worth less.
Id speculate thats whats happening to housing prices. Despite a very shaky boom bust economy and overall destabilizing national conditions, real estate is skyrocketing. Im pretty comfident thats being lead by genuine wealth simply buying houses as a hedge against the printing press. Id snatch all the land i could right now.
Quote from: mike_belben on August 25, 2020, 07:12:39 AM
With money dilution....
future dollars are worth less.
Yesterday Deb and I went by a little hole in the wall burger joint that I use to go when I was a kid with my dad. Burgers then were 10 cents now they are $1.00. And not quite as good. Dad bought a New Plymouth for $3000.00. Now you can get something similar for $30,000. Probably not as sturdy. Burgers and cars have went up 10 times. Minimum wage when I was in school was $1.65. What is it now? I don't know. But if you want any decent help you will pay them 10 times that amount. That Trent will likely continue. Tim
That is the real "inflation" measure. Which is intentional disinformation itself. "2 ways to conquer: By the sword or by debt." Inflation is when more existing dollars of a hard backed currency at a fixed exchange rate are suddenly conjured into an area by an increase in genuine enterprise..and the sudden rush of cash is competing for the same, slow to increase volume of goods and services. Vendors raise their price in order to modulate demand down to what is manageable for them to produce. They can only turn out so many widgits once you hit 3 shifts.
You cannot have inflation with a fiat currency by printing and injecting more of it by central banks and direct mailed govt "stimulus." That is dilution. The treasury/fed just wont admit it.
BK & Ford didnt water down the whopper or the F350. The fed watered down the paper we buy them with and weve all become slaves to printing press dilution that really got rolling under 2big2fail and hasnt let up. Your savings can never keep up so you can never quit slaving.
The only way to fix our economy is to burn the currency, not issue more. Consumer prices would immediately fall.
You cant borrow your way out of debt but you can sink a country that way. When they stop minting coins and printing small bills, a revolution is usually soon to follow.
Second the motion on SYP saw timber still being soft.
Im getting the same as last couple years , good high grade maple donot cut but I cut the rest , if good butt logs but not veneer I have been getting $150/1000 more than before . But I do feel a raise should becoming soon
Long time no hear @ehp (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=1195), how are things in Canada? AMEX keeps begging for wood but they don't raise prices very quickly (though they finally are starting to). Weather been good?
Peelers have jumped $100 thousand but pine and Hew haven't moved yet.
everything is fine here , been a real hot summer . Been doing stuff with my kids and wife plus logging. Been talking to other mills as they just show up on my landing , all of us feel the same way . Next year its going to suck and everything is going to slow down or stop . Hard maple took a good move up today but the top veneer is still pretty bad . Had another mill email me a price list today but all they want is low grade but the price they put on the price list was so low you would be a fool to cut for that price . I mean it was so low I have never seen log prices like that , well maybe in 1970
Depressed prices would be an understatement. The 2 verso pulp mills north of me that just about everyone hauls to has shut everyone off until end of September at least. They put most on quota starting in July. Bolt prices dropped 20-30 dollars a cord and everyone is full. Sawlog prices are half of last year and no verneer market for anything. I sure hope things turn around fast. I have lots of wood to cut this fall and winter.
Quote from: Cub on August 26, 2020, 05:44:14 PM
Depressed prices would be an understatement. The 2 verso pulp mills north of me that just about everyone hauls to has shut everyone off until end of September at least. They put most on quota starting in July. Bolt prices dropped 20-30 dollars a cord and everyone is full. Sawlog prices are half of last year and no verneer market for anything. I sure hope things turn around fast. I have lots of wood to cut this fall and winter.
Yeah WI took a hit with the two mills closing. Sorry to hear about the tough situation there. Veneer may pick up soon as the cool weather returns (for you in about a month :D). We actually hear of overseas demand increasing so maybe that will move your sawtimber and veneer up.
Lots of Ponsse guys are on the way to Louisiana tonight, looking to do salvage cleanup following the hurricane. Maybe that will take some supply off the market?
Quote from: ehp on August 26, 2020, 04:49:41 PM
everything is fine here , been a real hot summer . Been doing stuff with my kids and wife plus logging. Been talking to other mills as they just show up on my landing , all of us feel the same way . Next year its going to suck and everything is going to slow down or stop . Hard maple took a good move up today but the top veneer is still pretty bad . Had another mill email me a price list today but all they want is low grade but the price they put on the price list was so low you would be a fool to cut for that price . I mean it was so low I have never seen log prices like that , well maybe in 1970
Sometimes I wonder what these bottom fishers are doing? I really can't believe people send them wood.
Yeah it's definitely tough going here. I'm not sure what a lot of guys are going to do. I have a feeling the pulp mills will keep most shut off past September. They are hauling lots of wood from Wisconsin rapids up here so I think they will process that before they open back up. Heard around 20,000 cord they have sitting in the yard down there. Not sure what will happen going forward. I think there will be some bankruptcies and bank owned equipment for sale in the next few months.
Stumpage is CRAZY high here right now. I'm not even lookin at bid sales. Don't wanna lose money and work for nothin. If I wAnt excersize I'll buy a treadmill
Hmm maybe someone knows something we don't.
Marketing board here still showing old hardwood log prices since June, so not changing much. The sawmill will likely see the raise because up here they have a steady supply of public owned wood. Without that the mill doesn't get built. The mill sets purchase price for that wood, not DNR. There is no bid process.
Quote from: Cub on August 29, 2020, 08:10:45 AM
Yeah it's definitely tough going here. I'm not sure what a lot of guys are going to do. I have a feeling the pulp mills will keep most shut off past September. They are hauling lots of wood from Wisconsin rapids up here so I think they will process that before they open back up. Heard around 20,000 cord they have sitting in the yard down there. Not sure what will happen going forward. I think there will be some bankruptcies and bank owned equipment for sale in the next few months.
Wow...that would mean they'd start the fall/winter really not needing the wood. Terrible.
I would expect it is a good time to find some redpine or something that saws into a 2x4 (conifers). Down here even though the lumber prices are sky high the mills have not budged on pine logs, somethings rotten.
Almost impossible to move pine now. Has been all summer. Potlach in Gwinn hasn't been sawing much for studs. And they had a full yard before the virus stuff started. Escanaba pulp mill uses lots of pine. Yard is full. Lots of guys were getting 1 truck load a month for quota. Aspen same thing. Lp mill hasn't taken much to make osb. Running half crew up there. It's been tough to get rid of anything. Things moved all summer. Just really slow. It's like what do you even cut. Just don't know how long it will sit on the landing and dry out n get lighter.
Something definitely rotten.
Store beef prices through the roof, but cows are dirt cheep at the stockyard auction and the custom slaughterers have a 2 yr appointment lead now.
Lumber, plywood and osb flying off the shelf at record prices, but the mills arent buying.
These are some seriously peculiar supply chain anomolies.
The spf on the exchange made it to almost $900.mbf now it down to $790. and going down.
Just trying to piece together what I see here, but it seems like where there is some competition for wood from exporters, the market is a bit higher and more reflective of the cost at the lumber yard.
We have had a huge jump YoY and it's expected to hold through the elections. Went from no work in the late spring to 6 months lined up in a few weeks, at higher rate than normal too.
People here want to leave Seattle and Portland bad and are buying anything they can get their hands on to start building houses.
Commodity pricing is always about supply and demand; but that does not mean that supply/demand is in balance through the entire production chain. Covid19 caused supply chain chaos. Stuff in the store got wild because demand exceeded supply at the retail level. Plant closures at meat and egg processing plants made shelf ready product in high demand. No reason to buy beef on the hoof if your plant is not running so yes over-supply on the farm and under supply on the store shelf can happen and pricing at both ends of the chain reflect different realities. No conspiracy and if you don't have product to sell you aren't getting rich selling at the new high price because you have little to sell.
Lumber is the same. Shutdowns that weren't forced by the government still resulted. Some by management scaling back in an uncertain environment, some by labor shortages even with widespread unemployment. Not a single mill I deal with is able to keep adequate workers to maintain full production. Fear and government incentives to not work plays a part. Framing lumber is high because they big mills can't produce enough to meet the demand they didn't expect and don't have the workers to produce. Paying extra for logs that are not in short supply makes no sense. Log prices will not move until log demand exceeds log supply. Producers never set pricing in commodity markets; supply and demand does. Traders had to pay to get rid of crude oil for a couple days but the mini-mart is never going to pay you to put gas in your tank. Not a conspiracy just supply and demand doing its thing. Big prices will either curb demand or increase production.
I was driving a truck into the same plants i always did through mid May and everything was pumping while toilet paper and hand sanitizer were gone.
I never saw a "shutdown" anywhere. Not a sawmill, brickplant, block, mulch, coils, hardie board, pressure treater. Heck my last backhaul was that hardie board out of plant city FL and there was 7 staging lanes of trucks completely full, trucks all over the entrance road and a flagger waving us away. Thats atleast 4x more loads booked than normal and they averaged 120 truck loads a day normal. I got a load of drainage tile out of south georgia to bounce home. Plant looked normal there too.
I read about closures that would disrupt supply chains. But i saw none. And i probably drove into more industrial locations than your average bear. The pulp trucks never stopped running on 68 or 127 either. atlanta journal said the everglades were plowing fruit under but i was there next morning.. No fresh tillage to be seen. This is the only tractor i ever saw working in 7 trips to south florida and hes mucking irrigation.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/0312200920a.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1598799240)
The contractor i was delivering to hardscapes for citrus barons.. Said he hadnt heard of this fruit crisis and his projects are in the $ million range. But how did i get into FL? The news said theres roadblocks all over? Nope. 75 was wide open. Scale and ag checkpoints were even closed.
Call me crazy i dont care,all i said was somethings fishy. Just tellin you the honest truth of what i witnessed first hand. Lord strike me dead if im lying.
These kinda lines to pick up TP and water were a month long. Plants were on mandatory OT. This demand insanity should always raise input prices under any circumstance. Youd need a concentration yard the size of rhode island for this much TP demand not to spike pulp prices.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/766170E9-4744-40F7-B1A5-125C0B29AA71.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1598799315)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/17B2B35A-62E5-4816-BB03-9F9565D08BE2.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1598799208)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/04CE1D81-9ECA-4AF6-A0E4-B2782FDC3A4D.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1598799316)
up here most lumber yards are pretty bare , lots of stuff is sold out and whatever you get the price is up 50% , HMMMM I wonder when my price goes up .
OH Logger its the same here , mills are paying crazy prices for standing timber .
Now that's a line of trucks!!! :o
What do you do, wait in line for 6 hours to be loaded?
Last week I posted that the price of 1k bf of spf was up to almost $900. I checked yesterday afternoon and it's down below $670. a thousand.
I don't understand how things can be so different up and down all ever the place. I think it's just uncertainty in the future that is controlling the market right now. I have worked lined up for the rest of the year so I hope it stays that way. My work I mean.
Chinese are still taking it as fast as it goes in the boxes, saw 2x debarkers and iron going the other day filling boxes when I dropped wood off. Decent ash, not the best couple sticks of maple and I averaged 700 straight thru.
China shut down all containers up here a week ago , said they are full of red oak and ash and walnut
Quote from: thecfarm on September 06, 2020, 09:02:06 AM
Now that's a line of trucks!!! :o
What do you do, wait in line for 6 hours to be loaded?
Probably more like 16. Thats why the govt had to suspend the hours of service.
Quote from: ehp on September 06, 2020, 08:21:28 PM
China shut down all containers up here a week ago , said they are full of red oak and ash and walnut
That sucks...I spoke to one of the bigger exporters over your way a month and a half ago and he said he had just got an order for 30 containers a month of red oak. Hopefully it gets sorted soon.
There is a log buyer/concentration yard about 10 miles from me, having a hard time even getting a price sheet from them ::)
China got several triaxle and pup loads of my ash over the last 3 years.
ya Im pretty sure the guy your talking about is sitting and if you didnot know his Dad had a heart attack couple weeks ago, they put 4 splints in him so he seems ok, the one problem was a certain mill in the prov. besides us sent some containers that had bugs in them . That is a real big no no . So now every container has to be done proper and is inspected . They got so much red oak over there they have no idea on what to do with it and the price shows . The containers guys had another loop hole to ship stuff but that also got shut down hard so we will see
But that same guy were talking about is looking for hard maple 300,000 feet and paying very well and its not the high grade veneer , more like rotary veneer grade stuff , its alot more than what the mills here are paying
AMEX, canadian mill, has opened a facility in east/central PA to buy logs, looking for WO (like everyone else).
Anyone have any quartersaw log news? My current buyer is good but this project could cover him up, especially in the larger chestnut oaks (who knows what they'll look like once dropped, CO is notorious for staining).
amex gets very few logs around here , I know guys that have tried them for a couple loads but go back to the normal mills here
Quote from: ehp on September 10, 2020, 08:40:57 PM
amex gets very few logs around here , I know guys that have tried them for a couple loads but go back to the normal mills here
Yeah the pricing is not so great, international scale on small walnut is good though. They have a competitor I hear, don't know who they are..V something?
Northwest Hardwoods rumors continue to abound, they closed the export facility operated at the inland port of Virginia in Front Royal (last season). Put a lot of smaller exporters in VA in a hard spot.
there is a couple bigger mills over in Quebec buying hardwood , there is not alot of good hardwood left over there so thats why their looking everywhere to get more. There is a area that has good yellow birch just east of ontario border in Quebec and its a fairly big area and yellow birch is the most common tree . Lots of birch veneer in it
Rift WO veneer pricing is in at $ 3-7/bdft. We'll see how some do, not really happy on the wood quality but we've got size.
ya were the same here as before but no where near the log prices that your getting , I wish I had the veneer markets you guys have . I see alot of post loggers make with pictures of veneer and I can not sell those for number 1 saw logs
I don't understand how prices can be all over the place. I mean they ship milk thousands of miles so what does it matter where the location is on logs.
Mills pay the same price at their yard, but it costs a LOT more to ship logs 500 miles vs 5 miles, Difference shows in the value of the logs on the landing.
Here in NZ you want your forest within ~50 miles of a mill or port, otherwise the trucking starts to eat up too much of the value.
Rail is more cost effective over longer distances, but it still means double handling and increases the costs.
Quote from: ehp on September 18, 2020, 07:03:15 PM
ya were the same here as before but no where near the log prices that your getting , I wish I had the veneer markets you guys have . I see alot of post loggers make with pictures of veneer and I can not sell those for number 1 saw logs
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34089/75E7BE92-954D-4F7E-8013-999BC480217E.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1600474522)
Takes a big wo to get that price. But if you have them ask for it. This is one tree.
Other pricing news: poplar is at $600 for butt logs, way below the prices of 2 years ago but better than this spring.
ya I see white oak that big but the color of the wood is whiter than yours cause of the whiter sand they grow on, Veneer mill tells me it cost $800/1000 for shipping of veneer from here to their mill but still the best I would normally see for white oak is $3 a ft maybe $4 on a real good day in USA money, if your talking Tulip ya I have pretty much always gotten $600 for logs here. I donot cut much right here of it. I need to go west 50 or so miles and alot more of it over there. If your talking aspen I try and walk by that as much as I can, aspen, cottonwood , spruce is worth nothing here , $200/1000 once you pay trucking
some nice looking trees in that picture standing
Quote from: Firewoodjoe on September 18, 2020, 07:23:40 PMI mean they ship milk thousands of miles so what does it matter where the location is on logs.
Federal Milk Order sets the price on how milk is paid and I am not kidding when I say there are only a select group of several people who know the magic formula and decide on how it will be applied this month. If you sell commodity milk to a co-op then you are stuck with this system. In some cases you have to buy the right to get the top price, or any price sometimes, and the "credits" (the name varies with the State you are in) you own are not worth the paper they are printed on as nothing stands behind them and the State can simply ignore them tomorrow should they choose. Not something you want to see in the timber industry.
Maine has it's own commission that sets the price on milk so it's not part of the FMO, but it's a mess just the same.
Oh - and the farmer pays the trucking, then the milk plant pays a fee to the State and Fed for every gallon of milk processed, for advertising you know. This is above and beyond sales taxes, local taxes, income taxes, fuel taxes, etc. It's along the same lines as the Forest Use Tax I have to pay for every log I buy or harvest then put through the mill.
Keep the bureaucrats out of it.
Sorta off topic but one thing i did hear first hand about covid was a milk hauler dumping a tanker load for the first time in his long career. Just no place to haul it when national school demand suddenly stopped.
Quote from: ehp on September 18, 2020, 09:10:03 PM
ya I see white oak that big but the color of the wood is whiter than yours cause of the whiter sand they grow on, Veneer mill tells me it cost $800/1000 for shipping of veneer from here to their mill but still the best I would normally see for white oak is $3 a ft maybe $4 on a real good day in USA money, if your talking Tulip ya I have pretty much always gotten $600 for logs here. I donot cut much right here of it. I need to go west 50 or so miles and alot more of it over there. If your talking aspen I try and walk by that as much as I can, aspen, cottonwood , spruce is worth nothing here , $200/1000 once you pay trucking
I think $4 is about what that butt brings (center bottom). The veneer mill should pay the trucking. Are there any veneer export buyers? Right now light is right. I was talking tulip poplar, yellow poplar. It had fallen to $400. Guys were so desperate they were selling fine logs at $40/ton for yellow poplar peelers, peeling mill was just flooded. Those logs should have sold for $80/ton.
I'll post some more pics in the cutting thread. It is a pleasure to be on this site.
veneer does pay trucking but they take it off the top to start with, hard maple use to get good money but not right now $7 to $8 a ft was about normal here for the high grade
I've never heard of prices like you guys are talking. Best I've ever heard was $5 for hard maple going to China and that was a few years ago. Now $2-$3 is great if you get it. And best ever heard in number one was $1.20. Years ago. Milk gets dumped everyday FYI. Know one knows it though. Always has.
ya like most veneer buyers will tell you , right where I am is the best hard maple veneer that grows , the heart is a pencil dot and snow white in color. Biggest problem here is cause it was worth so much guys would go in and just cut the top veneer and leave, next is the sap suckers . They can ruin a tree in 1 spring
for a good bigger butt sawlog thats hard maple I get $1.15 per ft , big white soft maple its .70 a foot . Same as before
we will see if the prices come up any , its getting colder out here so they should, if not I will not cut any good stuff , I will let it grow
Quote from: ehp on September 20, 2020, 09:10:25 PM
we will see if the prices come up any , its getting colder out here so they should, if not I will not cut any good stuff , I will let it grow
Big test for us today. Last spring we survived on cutting a diet of WO, our ash salvage work did not even pay the bills, just helping out a timberframer. Walnut is zig zagging but we may cut some walnut as well.
I'll update with RO news.
I've got some big red oak coming up. But it's mills wood so price don't matter to me🤷🏼♂️
$1.2-$0.6 for export RO. Lots of rejects due to this or that..truthfully they had some issues but there were a few head scratchers. Overall, a bit lower than I'd like.
WO remains strong and multiple buyers are committing at $3-7 for these rift qs logs.
That's about what I've heard around here. Closer to the .60 side though
Demand has increased rapidly this fall for most hardwood lumber and especially oak flooring. Tie logs jumped to $.50 Doyle this week. Even though it has been dry this fall; lackluster lumber demand and pricing has log inventories fairly low for this time of year. You may well see rapid price increases and bidding wars for available logs as we head into the deer season/fall rain/Christmas supply disruptions. If you have good logs and can hold them..now might be a good time do so.
Super, good to hear and thanks for the update. We sold nro butt at 1.6 and QS white oak went anywhere from $2.2 to 1.5. I hear graff laid off all log buyers, have you heard about that?
Quote from: nativewolf on October 19, 2020, 06:34:40 PM
Super, good to hear and thanks for the update. We sold nro butt at 1.6 and QS white oak went anywhere from $2.2 to 1.5. I hear graff laid off all log buyers, have you heard about that?
I don't sell to Graff Bros but I did sell Quarter saw this week and my buyer didn't mention anything but I will ask around.
Quote from: nativewolf on October 19, 2020, 06:34:40 PM
Super, good to hear and thanks for the update. We sold nro butt at 1.6 and QS white oak went anywhere from $2.2 to 1.5. I hear graff laid off all log buyers, have you heard about that?
One of my contacts told me that Graff did lay off all their road buyers and plans to run the mills off delivered logs and timber. As a rule I never ship a log before I have the $$. I no doubt miss some sales but the practice has served me well.
Does mohawk flooring buy logs or just lumber?
I have not heard yet if anything sold today but should know pretty soon, hard maple seems to be heading in the right direction , its not $8 a ft like it was but it did come up quite abit in the last 2 weeks
was a tender that came up east of me , I never knew about it but talked to a guy that bid on it . He bid $3/ft and didnot get it , $3,40/ft won the bid. Thats just crazy to me for standing timber , yes it was walnut
Yep that is high, 3.40 Canadian?
Not sure how one can profit by paying 3.40 on the stump.
OK I made a couple post here and they must be in outer space cause I do not see them any where
Quote from: mike_belben on October 24, 2020, 08:05:51 PM
Not sure how one can profit by paying 3.40 on the stump.
Depends on how accurate the footage estimate is...
Quote from: ehp on October 24, 2020, 08:17:12 PM
OK I made a couple post here and they must be in outer space cause I do not see them any where
Well make them again, same has happened to me. I get logged out while writing a post. Frustrating for sure.
Quote from: mike_belben on October 24, 2020, 08:05:51 PM
Not sure how one can profit by paying 3.40 on the stump.
I sold 40k feet at $5, but it was only 100 trees. I am sure they got more than that as they cut limbs, small tops etc. If I had it over I'd cut it myself because I know how to get $12-16 walnut veneer now.
remember we do not get the price you guys get , $8/ft is pretty good for us on walnut . Some bush it hard to average $3 to $4 a ft on walnut here, we end up with big sap rings and there is no set pattern , You can cut a tree with huge sap ring and 25 feet away its very little sap ring . Where I am right now cutting the walnut has a very bright green color in the dark wood
Quote from: ehp on October 24, 2020, 11:29:24 PM
remember we do not get the price you guys get , $8/ft is pretty good for us on walnut . Some bush it hard to average $3 to $4 a ft on walnut here, we end up with big sap rings and there is no set pattern , You can cut a tree with huge sap ring and 25 feet away its very little sap ring . Where I am right now cutting the walnut has a very bright green color in the dark wood
Frankly 8 is good here too, the folks in IN and Ohio Iowa, etc are the ones that can count on higher prices. We have issues with bird peck (yellow bellied sap suckers and actual wood peckers going after worms), worms (purdue had a good video of a mill showing worm in walnut- I will see if I can find that, people might find it instructive-very very tiny holes), sapwood, uneven color, growing too fast.
sap suckers are huge problem here for our hard maple , if they hit your tree no veneer for you lol
Quote from: ehp on October 24, 2020, 06:18:07 PM
was a tender that came up east of me , I never knew about it but talked to a guy that bid on it . He bid $3/ft and didnot get it , $3,40/ft won the bid. Thats just crazy to me for standing timber , yes it was walnut
I heard second hand today that they pulled a tree out there worth 10k usd. Not sure how true it is but if there was one, there was likely others.
I believe it, I have a few on properties we manage.
I have done that, got $5400 usa just for 9 ft butt log and $4500 for second log and there were 7 logs in that tree
Hard to say but I do know the veneer buyer he uses got turned back at the border last week
that tree went to Germany I sold and I believe they cut it into tables
I hope to have a good idea on how hard maple goes by the end of the week , Im just going to cut a load of it and see what it does , now I do wish the red oak paid more , last week the red oak price sure was nothing to write home about
Regarding the sapsuckers, here in Central New York I haven't seen where they are big on hard maple. You'd think they would like the sugary sap. They do seem to go for apple, pear, basswood and some others. Maybe it depends on whether they can find their more preffered species. In heavily wooded areas, hummingbirds will tag along with sapsuckers and pirate the sap wells. Hope I'm not straying too far off topic.
they hit the basswood hard here to , been in some areas where the hard maple are just saw logs cause of the sapsuckers
whats red oak doing, I'm cutting average red oak for here , quite tall but not getting much for it .Another thing you really have to watch with hard maple is what crops are planted near the bush , some crops ruin veneer
We are getting $1200 on black oak veneer butts, $1600 on northern red veneer butts. Mostly focused on cutting white oaks. This coming week we are going to try to up our production quite a bit, we'll see. We think we should have a load a week of veneer. Only $600 on really nice second logs.
Quote from: ehp on October 26, 2020, 06:59:50 PM
I have done that, got $5400 usa just for 9 ft butt log and $4500 for second log and there were 7 logs in that tree
What kinda circumstance or diameter where they ?
Quote from: nativewolf on October 24, 2020, 09:53:42 PM
Quote from: mike_belben on October 24, 2020, 08:05:51 PM
Not sure how one can profit by paying 3.40 on the stump.
I sold 40k feet at $5, but it was only 100 trees. I am sure they got more than that as they cut limbs, small tops etc. If I had it over I'd cut it myself because I know how to get $12-16 walnut veneer now.
What was the smallest to largest diameters of the 100 trees
It was nice stuff, min was 22" and it went as high as the 30s. A few logs were flipped at $16/bdft before they even were cut :o. Oh well, the risk was on them. $5 straight through for standing timber I though was pretty nice.
😳That was really nice. I bet you would like to come across some more of that stuff of that caliber 👍
We're seeing high prices here for softwood and the highest price I've ever seen for cedar.
The mills up here in Intermountain region seem to be colluding these days. Had forester tell me he could pay a LANGUAGE MODIFIED by ADMIN more but doesn't have to. $450 mbf for Doug fir peelers. Poor landowners LANGUAGE MODIFIED by ADMIN these days
Is that a prophetic user name you have?😂
Quote from: barbender on October 29, 2020, 11:49:29 PM
Is that a prophetic user name you have?😂
Got a chuckle out of that one. :D
I believe that tree was 57 inches on small end of second log . I have a older man that has 4 farms I help look after and all the farms have walnut on them but the 1 farm has quite a few , there are 7 of them on that farm I'm sure will go for $10,000 each or more . they are nice
I have never sold a black oak veneer , I have cut them but no one buys them up here , same with red maple . I have cut lots of that but $750/1000 is best I get
I cut a lot of black. Most of it is pallet wood. I think there's a few variations people call black oak. Red/soft maple does good around here sometimes.
Quote from: BAN on October 29, 2020, 10:40:02 PM
The mills up here in Intermountain region seem to be colluding these days. Had forester tell me he could pay a LANGUAGE MODIFIED by ADMIN more but doesn't have to. $450 mbf for Doug fir peelers. Poor landowners LANGUAGE MODIFIED by ADMIN these days
Well I am sympathetic. They absolutely do collude, even some veneer buyers won't compete. My buyer has basically marked us as his territory and a whole whack of other buyers won't even stop by. Some do though, not as many as I'd like.
The stone business is similar, you dont go after another guy's customers or they will retaliate by going after yours. Everyone is better off staying with their own and keeping the peace.
Quote from: BAN on October 29, 2020, 10:40:02 PM
The mills up here in Intermountain region seem to be colluding these days. Had forester tell me he could pay a LANGUAGE MODIFIED by ADMIN more but doesn't have to. $450 mbf for Doug fir peelers. Poor landowners LANGUAGE MODIFIED by ADMIN these days
Guess I type like i speak :D.
You'll want to refine that😊
(https://forestryforum.com/board/Themes/default/images/useroff.gif) (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=pm;sa=send;u=4370) WDH (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=4370)
(https://forestryforum.com/board/Themes/default/images/post/xx.gif)
Re: couple pics... post what your currently cutting (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=80957.msg1766680#msg1766680)
« Reply #5535 on: Today at 07:02:19 AM »
Hardwood Market Report for October 23, 2020:
Appalachian Region for 4/4
FAS red oak green $895. #1C 595
FAS red oak KD $1380. #1C $1075
FAS hard maple white green $1320 #1C $945
FAS hard maple white KD $1850 #1C $1270
FAS north central cherry green $1025 #1C $495
FAS north Central cherry KD $1525 #1C $950
FAS yellow poplar green $800 #1C $420
FAS yellow poplar KD $1175 #1C $700
Northern Region for 4/4
FAS red oak green $915 #1C $595
FAS red oak KD $1250 #1C $980
FAS hard maple white green $1480 #1C $945
FAS hard maple white KD $1810 #1C $1170
These prices FOB sawmill tractor trailer quantities.
Thanks to @WDH (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=4370) for updating our HMR pricing. To compare a bit, back in 2018 we had RO 4/4 FAS at 1145 and #1c at 845. About 250 bucks on 1C from 2018 to now, we'd have to increase pricing by 40% to get there again. Not sure what it was in 2016 but man... pricing moved the wrong way over the last 2-3 years.
@EHP Ed I'm not sure if this helps give you some perspective or not, RO is just soft compared to the pricing of a few years ago but today HM is actually higher than that of 2018 so your good sawlogs should have sold well, the lumber is supporting the log sale price. Don't think it is any particular mill hurting anyone, just weakness. Frankly we get more for our long RO knotty timber LOGS than the price for 1C lumber, another mind blowing thing...fence boards sell for 12% more than FAS RO at wholesale pricing. Crazy world out there.
My hard maple average for the saw logs with veneer taken out was the highest i have ever seen for me . I'm very happy with what I got . My average per thousand was higher than the other mills top log price
Glad to hear !
Around here there are a lot of big big big syrup operations taking over even pretty small bushes. I see a lot of logging jobs where they don't cut a stick of maple just every.single.other.tree. Huge monoculture crops like Midwest crop fields. Maybe this is happening in other places too, supply drying up and pushing the HM price? Just thinking out loud as to why other species price are down but HM up
HM still not as high on the good veneer end as it was a couple years ago, will we ever see $8 a ft again for it, well I hope so
Red maple isn't worth much more than pulp here unless you have a figured buyer looking for rippled grain. We don't have many hardwood sawmills anyway and they get all kinds of cheap wood off crown land, so not going to pay much for private wood. I was in one local mill before and they had all kinds of birdseye maple at the time, certainly separated out. Didn't pay any more for it than regular logs, certainly sold it for a lot more when sawed. :D
Maple and birch saw logs bigger than 11" top around $560 now, another mill as low as $350 for 10"+ top for soft maple. You can't compete with the government. :D
I was at wifes friends bonfire for halloween under two monster maple yard trees.. Maybe 5ft butts, 24" limbs.. Short trees with huge crowns.. probably 100ft across. She asked me about syrup.. I grabbed a sucker shoot and drunkenly google ID'd it as hard maple.
If thats correct, how does the sugar content compare to sugar maples? This is in the middle of TN at 2000ft elevation. I know our red maple can make syrup but its a ton of boiling off mostly water. If i was willing to do the evaporating i bet she'd want to tap the trees. How is long term health effected by taps? These trees define the yard, probably historic landmarks. Wouldnt want to mess them up over $20 of aunt jemima.
Funny sidenote.. It was windy and lots of sparks were blowing around.. Shes a ditz. "omg omg is it gonna light my tree on fire!?"
Shannon theres 500 gallons of water in that tree.. You couldnt light it with a blowtorch. ::)
Quote from: mike_belben on November 02, 2020, 05:33:16 AMI grabbed a sucker shoot and drunkenly google ID'd it as hard maple.
[...]
If thats correct, how does the sugar content compare to sugar maples?
???You can see a variation of sugar content from 1%-8% in a sugar (hard) maple, red (soft) maple will be on the lower end of this scale. Tap 'em for sure. Maybe don't put too many on a line of tubing with a bunch of high class sugar maples, the reds will go "buddy" earlier in the spring and you could be making off tasting syrup. If you are selling it that is like selling your sawlogs for pulp :-X
There should not be adverse health effects to the tree --if you tap correctly--. When I was younger and even dumber I split a few nice trees tapping. You won't notice it immediately but once the spile is set if you keep pounding you are basically wedging the tree apart sideways. The sound will change distinctly when it is fully set, just tap-tap-tap it in like Happy Gilmore and life will be sweet
So "hard maple" and "sugar maple" are the same tree?
Quote from: mike_belben on November 02, 2020, 07:35:02 AM
So "hard maple" and "sugar maple" are the same tree?
thumbs-up Nailed it! Also called "Rock Maple" by some old timers. One of the best tricks for ID'ing by leaf is the shape of the valley, sugar/hard/rock maple will have "U" shaped separations between the fingers of the leaf, red/soft maple will have "V" shaped separations
Yes.
Quote from: mudfarmer on November 02, 2020, 07:13:55 AM
Quote from: mike_belben on November 02, 2020, 05:33:16 AMI grabbed a sucker shoot and drunkenly google ID'd it as hard maple.
[...]
If thats correct, how does the sugar content compare to sugar maples?
???You can see a variation of sugar content from 1%-8% in a sugar (hard) maple, red (soft) maple will be on the lower end of this scale. Tap 'em for sure. Maybe don't put too many on a line of tubing with a bunch of high class sugar maples, the reds will go "buddy" earlier in the spring and you could be making off tasting syrup. If you are selling it that is like selling your sawlogs for pulp :-X
There should not be adverse health effects to the tree --if you tap correctly--. When I was younger and even dumber I split a few nice trees tapping. You won't notice it immediately but once the spile is set if you keep pounding you are basically wedging the tree apart sideways. The sound will change distinctly when it is fully set, just tap-tap-tap it in like Happy Gilmore and life will be sweet
Another significant factor in sugar content is the size of the crown. A yard tree with a large crown has much more sugar than one in the middle of a stand with a limited top size. Healthy yard trees can produce a gallon of syrup with as little as 20 gal of sap. "Chinese" maple (the ones with red leaves year-round) will also produce good sap.
Good to know gang, i will look closer next time im there.
Well that clears up some confusion! I only did arborist work in mass and didnt care what i was cutting down or burning. I knew to stay well away from blue tubes!
Didnt look much deeper until i moved and had to start selling sawlogs to feed the kiddos. I do remember some RIDICULOUSLY hard old maple burl firewood up there that i had to noodle to burn cuz there was no amount of wedges thatd bust it.
Our natural woods are dominated by soft maple [reds.] the mill sheets dont even have a spec for hard/sugar.. On this plateau "maple" is one lump category and pretty low grade, about same price as poplar. Im told tapping red maple is a fools errand which is normally up my alley...
I should probably try to propagate some of the helicopters off her tree over here in my yard for the grandkids to tap.
The leaves on the soft maples are toothed between the lobes. The leaves on the hard maples are entire (not toothed but smooth).
There are a couple of hard maples, sugar maple, black maple, and southern sugar maple.
The hard maple that you have in Tennessee is sugar maple.
Mike,
I used to buy a world of pretty nice Sugar Maple in the Crossville area a few years back; including some veneer in the winter months. Also a surprising amount of nice Cherry for that latitude. Altitude matters LOL. Some logs that come out of the Smokies at 4000' ft + are on par with the Cherry and Maple coming out of NY and PA. Some of the north slope ground around Crossville is only half a step behind it. Your Red Oak on the other hand is about as poor as the Maple and Cherry are good.
Quote from: stavebuyer on November 02, 2020, 11:47:18 AM
Mike,
I used to buy a world of pretty nice Sugar Maple in the Crossville area a few years back; including some veneer in the winter months. Also a surprising amount of nice Cherry for that latitude. Altitude matters LOL. Some logs that come out of the Smokies at 4000' ft + are on par with the Cherry and Maple coming out of NY and PA. Some of the north slope ground around Crossville is only half a step behind it. Your Red Oak on the other hand is about as poor as the Maple and Cherry are good.
I bet if you dumped a load of hardwood logs in old Stave buyers yard he could tell you where they where cut.
cut a few walnut today , longest veneer was 34 ft long but not huge in diameter but we will see how it goes with the veneer buyer , I sure pounded alot of log savers today
The monster yard maples were in the center of monterey about a mile from the bluffs.
Whats ironic is i have some decent red oaks [on second thought nevermind. When sawn our decent looking red oak turns to low grade knotty lumber] but crap for cherry, seems they wont grow on my site. They sprout easy enough but NEVER stay straight for me. Anything arches them over before 6" dbh. I have zero mature cherry.
White oaks that escaped harvest are small but pretty good. WO is definitely my best tree. Walnut, zero. Now the scarlet oaks, yeah theyre firewood usually and make up atleast half the reds. Black and post oak too.. Most of all that is doaty, knobby or full of shake. Hickory seems fair to me but you guys see stuff outside of my little bubble so my opinion might be pretty juvenile as to whats really out there.
Springfield mass had great red oaks in every patch of urban swamp where you couldnt stick another crack house. Overcrowded with big boys just falling over from old age. I never left my street for firewood.
Any update on prices? I heard red oak is easing up, but haven't seen it in the log prices yet...
@ehp (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=1195) how did that walnut do? We cut a few logs but the sap was pretty big, like 2" on a 20" log (so 4" of sapwood, only 16" heartwood).
@Hogdaddy (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=51047) - Red oak is up here in VA.
YP moved very aggressively this month, back up to $600+ on international scale or 700 doyle depending on the mill. With that pricing you are seeing real lack of logs on the yard. The $600/mbf intl is also just gatewood price, no negotiation. I expect we'll do better by 5% or more. Time to start cutting YP again.
On the lumber side of things Walnut sawlogs are averaging $2, from $1-3+. That's a big jump from last year.
WO is still moving up, sold a massive rotten WO log, stained, for $1/bf and already regret it.
Armstrong flooring buyers called looking for any kind of oak or hickory lumber, they are falling short.
Latest HMR shows that eastern hardwood production has plummeted these last couple of years and Oct production (US only) was only 1/2 of 2018. Mill log yards inventory is apparently getting tight.
The warm dry weather should have had loggers hitting high production in Michigan, Ohio, WV, PA, and NY if they had good timber to cut.
Log buyers continue to drive for a day to buy big WO so I am suspicious I'm still not getting max price, need @stavebuyer (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=15189) to sell some logs for us. :D
Last update, Chestnut oak. We sold first and second logs min diameter of 17" , $1600/mbf straight through. They truck them. So that is some progress but nothing like the +2/bdft that I hear is possible. We have 50mbf of big chestnut to go so we may still hold off and look for higher pricing. Anyway, 1600/mbf picked up at landing for CO in northern va.
Thanks for the report @nativewolf (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=24089)
has not sold yet but is at place waiting for buyer, I got about a truck load of veneer waiting for him.
but I did pretty good last week when I sold veneer , Im very happy with what I got
and I had to cut a log off the 34ft walnut, log truck could not lift the log
so sawmill ordered a new log loader for the truck , went as big as they make for up here
Good on you! So 2+ on the hard maple and we'll see what happens on your walnut. I'll have a price range on mine on Friday. I don't expect much, it is not great.
BIG increase in rough long WO, $1000/mbf for 30'. International. 12" top min.
hard maple is better than that $3 to $5 average on veneer
I was talking about the $2 average , I only have had 1 log below $3 so far. The walnut has been sap right so I'm not thinking much but I can always hope
hard maple
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11195/20201031_163713.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1605133592)
Thanks for the report , we were having trouble finding a few white oak trees for a bridge job and a 20 acre tract came up reasonable this week that had some white and chestnut on it, mostly red from what I saw as we snagged a few whites yesterday. Might build some timberframes with the reds unless the price is good. I have seen yellow poplar going down the road here the past month or so, it had been only white pine.
Quote from: ehp on November 11, 2020, 05:28:05 PM
hard maple
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11195/20201031_163713.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1605133592)
Wow...well that is perfect
This week's HMR shows hardwood lumber prices up for many species. Red oak lumber is moving briskly and is in short supply. China has come back into the market. Cherry is moving up, hard maple, walnut, and white oak are moving up.
Just got the 3rd quarter stumpage report from the U of Ma. Prices on the stump have gone up considerably. W/oak went from $75. to $200. Cherry $50. to $175. Sugar maple $175. to $300. Yellow Birch $40. to $175. Black birch up $5. Lot of others from 5 to 45. Even Hemlock came back on board at $30. All prices MBF.
I think the free paychecks have spurred the upper class to invest in housing to park their money where it wont errode from printing press dilution. Well, that and covid has mobilized the wealthy to escape population density.
friend of mine and his wife are both top middle class high earners and it took them a year of getting outbid when they were offering more than asking price already. Half million to buy a house with a garage, 7 weeks ago.
How else can you explain the housing market growing likes its the dotcom days when half the economy is in a forced covid closure? Travel, hotel and restaurant biz are in the toilet, prices should be down on everything. Lumber has tripled yet every time im in lowes theres guys in line with full dolleys like its on sale in some sorta upside down world.
If mayonaise tripled id stop buying it.
We did not do well on the sappy walnut, $8 max. One log thrown down into high end sawlog at $4, it was nearly 1/3 sapwood. Walnut sawlogs went from $4 to $1.
Had a black oak butt go for $1400/mbf and that's a new high for us on black oak.
White oak staying strong with veneer from $3-6.
$8/bf isnt good wyatt? Ive never hit $2/bf.
Quote from: mike_belben on November 13, 2020, 01:46:25 PM
$8/bf isnt good wyatt? Ive never hit $2/bf.
On walnut? $2 is well...I'll send some pics of $2. It is not much of a log.
I've moved my pricing bar up and I do regret selling a few stands too soon in my education process. I'll hope to get to $14 on one log this winter, I guess the tree will go for $10k...most of that will be in the butt. Not a tall tree.
Boy I sure wish I could buy standing timber for that price , Most of those prices times by 2 to 4 times is the going rate here
No, ive never cut a walnut or even seen one that wasnt a yard tree yet. $1800/mbf is best ive ever done, white oak stave. And for here thats great.
J
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34089/238984F5-CF3A-46D7-872C-0E9029FF91E4.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1605382734)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34089/D7DE6FB3-92E6-4FFD-B7C2-94F563F656AF.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1605382862)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34089/2AF8190F-3C0B-46B5-B0EB-80A0BB0125B8.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1605382708)
From $8 on the butt (23") but a little Duffy, short and a touch of peck with wide sap; to firewood limbs at $1/bdft(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34089/A8927B66-C898-4111-97D7-4A0A3E5E650F.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1605382707)
Quote from: ehp on September 19, 2020, 09:08:16 PM
ya like most veneer buyers will tell you , right where I am is the best hard maple veneer that grows , the heart is a pencil dot and snow white in color. Biggest problem here is cause it was worth so much guys would go in and just cut the top veneer and leave, next is the sap suckers . They can ruin a tree in 1 spring
Extremely rare for here, any hard maple above 20" diameter is usually leaning 10 degrees and at least 1/3 in the middle is dark or rotten. Seen lots of hard maple 40"+, but no good for anything other than the grinder. Even DNR don't even run their volume tables above 18" diameters. Cruising timber is rare now though, pretty much all done from the air. Cousin just had his ground done that way (LIDAR) and cutting there this fall. Just Google "lidar tree volume", all kinds of papers on the internet.
I'm still an 'on the ground man' myself. ;)
$1000/mbf for firewood must be nice!
Theres probably 10 mills within an hour radius of my house and its extremely rare to get $1/bf for anything that grows here.
For us in these parts, veneer red spruce, when there was a market here in the late 90's, only paid $1000 US/mbf. And nothing smaller than 14" top end, minimum 16'6" length, if I recall. We had some in the 3' to 4' breast height diameter range on an old town water reservoir lot. Towns now on wells with towers, so those woodlots have been cut since. Them logs went to a saw mill, and not at $1000. I think at the time, the veneer market was a bit on shaking ground. I do recall something like $500/mbf for the logs at the sawmill. Back then some mills paid $460 for the regular run of logs, so it was no premium. :D The spruce veneer market has disappeared since. The sawmill is still here. But them logs went to their sawmill in Maine where they handle bigger spruce.
Last time I went looking for oak plywood, suppose to be the good stuff, it was expensive and a lot of voids. I have a desk here, that a pencil on paper could find them voids, the veneer will collapse over the void. And then they want the big dollars. Pass!!!
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11009/oak-plywood-void.jpg)
I've never seen spruce veneer, neat. I'd think that is the type of market that could come back but who knows. Right now Russia is simply going to be swamping the market with wood and they can cut a lot of spruce, it will take them 80 years after they butcher it all.
Quote from: mike_belben on November 14, 2020, 07:20:08 PM
$1000/mbf for firewood must be nice!
Theres probably 10 mills within an hour radius of my house and its extremely rare to get $1/bf for anything that grows here.
Go get some small walnut field trees, the 9 or 10" top curvy walnut limb was still worth $25. Crazy world. From those 3 or 4 trees we have 1/2 cord of limbs bucked, they'll sell for $800 or more. Simply nuts for 7' limbs. Anyway Mike just wanted you to see that it does not have to be remarkable stuff to sell if it is brown. Also a caution to guys that throw that stuff on the firewood pile. Sell it. If I was you, ie mechanically capable, I'd do ok just taking walnut yard trees out and selling them.
I think your proximity to DC is a very large pricing factor wyatt. I can buy sawn 4/4 walnut planks for $15 each on FB.
Just cruised the firewood market [its still warm here so hasnt really started yet] and guys are selling a nice rick for $40 picked up or $45 delivered local. Imagine how much your world would change if you were surrounded by people willing to load, deliver and unload a face cord for $5. Thats like 2 bucks an hour.
Firewood here is $300+ a cord. Every pickup load I bring home from the woodlot is a $100 bill in my pocket. More than $30/hr I figure. :D Brought one home this morning already, all split to.
Quote from: mike_belben on November 15, 2020, 09:53:07 AM
I think your proximity to DC is a very large pricing factor wyatt. I can buy sawn 4/4 walnut planks for $15 each on FB.
Just cruised the firewood market [its still warm here so hasnt really started yet] and guys are selling a nice rick for $40 picked up or $45 delivered local. Imagine how much your world would change if you were surrounded by people willing to load, deliver and unload a face cord for $5. Thats like 2 bucks an hour.
These are shipped to Ohio 6 hour drive. :D
I guess those ohians got a hankerin for walnut then. ;D
We sure do ;)
Huge wind storm here. I guessing days before we get hydro power again . Lots of roads closed and hydro wires laying everywhere.
Quote from: mike_belben on November 15, 2020, 02:04:04 PM
I guess those ohians got a hankerin for walnut then. ;D
Evidently not or they would to drive to TN and buy for pennies on the dollar.
Mike, where you live at in middle tennesse? I live ib south cental Ky, and walnut brings pretty good here, sold 9000 ft for a $3+ avg the other day, tree run. They were good walnut, good size, with quite a bit of veneer in them. Probablty could have got more, but needed to get them moved quickly.
Quote from: ehp on November 15, 2020, 05:19:08 PM
Huge wind storm here. I guessing days before we get hydro power again . Lots of roads closed and hydro wires laying everywhere.
How's it going now? Cleanup moving along?
Quote from: Hogdaddy on November 16, 2020, 08:29:28 PM
Mike, where you live at in middle tennesse?
Since i used my real name like a shmuck, i try to keep my location a little more private to not hand it over to identity thieves. With my location you can pretty much get enough info to clone me. I can hit kentucky in an hour or so.
Quote from: WDH on November 11, 2020, 09:08:57 PM
This week's HMR shows hardwood lumber prices up for many species. Red oak lumber is moving briskly and is in short supply. China has come back into the market. Cherry is moving up, hard maple, walnut, and white oak are moving up.
Cherry still on move? Fold or go all in? Got some decent stuff that will get bird peck soon if the last decade has taught me anything :o
@mike_belben (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=33722) the trick is to have no/bad credit or any money so if they steal your identity they are real sorry about it afterwards and try to give it back :D
Yes. HMR shows cherry up another $30 per thousand this week.
Quote from: WDH on November 19, 2020, 04:40:17 PM
Yes. HMR shows cherry up another $30 per thousand this week.
Thank you for the quick response! I am small time and have not developed good markets, especially for good wood but there is a local buyer I will try to send a small load to.
NYS DEC stumpage report consistently shows all species in my area selling for literally half what it does in the rest of the state, so that's cool ::)
Any new news, besides lumber prices are too high and log prices are too low?
My buddy and his son are hauling long loads locally, mostly spruce and fir. It is hardly worth getting out of bed for what the mills are paying but payments are due on the 3 year old Pete and nobody wants it. The old KW is long paid for but still paying its way and she wants him out of the house. :D Yet prices at the lumber yard are insane but it is still moving, builders are being kept busy. Where is the money coming from?
(https://qalitygigant.com/metric/?mid=&wid=52666&sid=&tid=8830&rid=LOADED&custom1=forestryforum.com&custom2=%2Fboard%2Findex.php&custom3=qalitygigant.com&t=1606928902639)(https://qalitygigant.com/metric/?mid=&wid=52666&sid=&tid=8830&rid=BEFORE_OPTOUT_REQ&t=1606928902645)(https://qalitygigant.com/metric/?mid=&wid=52666&sid=&tid=8830&rid=FINISHED&custom1=forestryforum.com&t=1606928902651)(https://qalitygigant.com/metric/?mid=&wid=52666&sid=&tid=8830&rid=OPTOUT_RESPONSE_OK&t=1606928903425)(https://qalitygigant.com/metric/?mid=cd1d2&wid=52666&sid=&tid=8830&rid=MNTZ_INJECT&t=1606928903450)(https://qalitygigant.com/metric/?mid=90f06&wid=52666&sid=&tid=8830&rid=MNTZ_INJECT&t=1606928903459)(https://qalitygigant.com/metric/?mid=31af2&wid=52666&sid=&tid=8830&rid=MNTZ_INJECT&t=1606928903509)(https://qalitygigant.com/metric/?mid=cd1d2&wid=52666&sid=&tid=8830&rid=MNTZ_LOADED&t=1606928904024)(https://qalitygigant.com/metric/?mid=90f06&wid=52666&sid=&tid=8830&rid=MNTZ_LOADED&t=1606928904510)
I dont know where it comes from or goes to. Just that i dont have any of it!
One of the few plusses at this time to being old and retired is still have a steady base income ,feel for those who are still trying to make a $$$$. I don't have to saw if weather is cold, wet, or too hot. I have plenty of my own wood ( Doug Fir ) on my place here in C.G. OR. and lots of large, 10" to 36" juniper (ERC?) on our acreage near Bonanza, OR, so plenty to saw at no cost. feel pretty fortunate.
Quote from: Hogdaddy on December 02, 2020, 11:29:04 AM
Any new news, besides lumber prices are too high and log prices are too low?
They are sure taking "buy low, sell high" literally and to new heights
hard maple is very good and still climbing here, red oak is ok but sure should be higher , red oak veneer is starting to sell ok now, wo is good and walnut
Quote from: Ed_K on November 13, 2020, 08:58:17 AM
Just got the 3rd quarter stumpage report from the U of Ma. Prices on the stump have gone up considerably. W/oak went from $75. to $200. Cherry $50. to $175. Sugar maple $175. to $300. Yellow Birch $40. to $175. Black birch up $5. Lot of others from 5 to 45. Even Hemlock came back on board at $30. All prices MBF.
Holy cow, that is an amazing variance in price from low to high. Sheesh, that def gives proof when one has the general strategy of not selling your timber unless you know it's an up market. That's worse than the oil business, lol.
What's the price of sawdust nowadays? I know my kitchen cabinets are made of it. Here in Wisconsin, farmers are buying semiloads of it for their cattle bedding. A farm I drove truck for made their own and sold it to other farms. I think to the tune of $150 to the ton. Sounds better than pulpwood or as good as sawlog prices. The bigger farms need it for milk cows or they get more infections in their udders. Anyone have anything to share on this? Don't quote me on the price per ton.
Sorry, I did not mean to highjack the post. Probably a better question for the milling forum guys.
I'm sure Southside knows the answer to your question when he gets on here
Definitely got a decimal point in the wrong spot on that one.
Green sawdust typically brings in the range of $30 - $60 / ton, depending on the time of year, buying competition, wood type, trucking distance, and style of trailer needed to truck it. Live bottoms going to a farm command a higher price than possum bellies at a pulp mill being dumped from a truck dumper.
Most guys don't want green sawdust in a dairy barn because it's an invitation for mastitis. Dry shavings are usually preferred. For the same reasons above that might get you into the $80 - $100 per ton range, but then guys look hard at sand bedding because you can only afford shavings for the calves, calving area, and hospital pen at that price.
If guys have pack barns for the winter up north they might be using green sawdust, and a lot of it, to keep the carbon / ammonia levels in check, then dig out in the spring.
Saw log and verneer prices have finally improved around here. Basswood and ash are back to where it was and so is red oak. Not sure about maple. However the pulp market is still horrible. Mills still have everyone on quota. It's gotten better. But probably won't see any real improvement until all the wood from the Wisconsin rapids verso mill closing gets through the pipeline. That could take some time yet. But at least there's some positive around here finally.
$800 for medium quality DF here 6"+
1675 WRC 24' at 5"+
Regarding measuring and bucking logs. Ontario log rule and 24' log. Very little taper.
8'@16", 8'@15" and 8'@14"=212bf
12'@16" and 12'@14"=213bf
When selling for export, the buyer always wanted the butt log cut at 12', whereas the private buyer wants all 8' logs.
that all depends on whom your selling to and what type of trees , everyone is different , some guys want 8 ft 6 inch logs some do not but you should know where that tree is going before it hits the ground and most buyers will be in doyle scale , no one uses ontario log rule
I don't know why anyone would sell logs by the Doyle. It gives a large over-run to the buyer especially on smaller logs and overly large logs too.
The fellow itself to in Peterborough uses Ontario log rule.
Quote from: Woodfarmer on December 25, 2020, 08:09:50 PMI don't know why anyone would sell logs by the Doyle. It gives a large over-run to the buyer especially on smaller logs and overly large logs too.
I think it's because it's effectively adjusting the value of the log depending on size. The mill pays "full price" for the optimum sized logs. Large and smaller logs are more work or time to process, so they effectively pay less for them.
Locally logs are bought by the ton, but there are about 6 size grades with different prices. Small logs are slower to process, and produce lower quality lumber, so the mill pays less per ton. Likewise over-size logs have a limited market too, and their value per ton drops off too.
Having a scale that varies depending on size achieves a similar result, while having only one "price".
its because pretty much everything ends up in the USA if its veneer , but also remember if your logs are over 20 inches on top end you gain on the scale over ontario log rule . I average 9,000 to 10,000 feet per load on dolye
On a 16' log. Int. ON. Scrib. Doyle
16". 180. 162. 160. 140
20". 290. 261. 280. 256
24". 425. 384. 400. 400
I think I like International best. Realistically around here we're not getting very many logs at 16' greater than 20", the odd one but not many.
So I lose on avg. 20 bf per log, that adds up as most I sell is in the 16-18" range using Doyle.
The load that went out today was Ontario Rule, next time it will probably be Doyle.
I should add, this load was going for live edge slab, so half the kerf and not as much waste I figure so I don't feel bad selling in ON rule.
For everyone getting "shafted" on Doyle; Buyers kind of know how various scales yield and how the talk at the coffee shop gets down to how much " my logs brought more than yours". 2x4=8 and so does 4x2=8. Logs are only worth "x" to the buyer. Demand more scale footage and you will get less per unit. Really can't work any other way.
I buy stave logs from one mill who specializes in sawing ties. He buys on Doyle but knows how the scales benefits him and passes that on to his loggers through a ridiculous liberal reading of the ruler and ignoring of any defects.
Veneer buyers often taken the opposite approach. They pay big per foot, but by the time they scale the narrow way and cut a 10' back to 9' the real world average is much lower than the scale ticket shows.
As a seller, you need to be just as familiar with the log ruler as the buyers and sell to the market that pays the most dollars. The bank doesn't care how close the footage was or what the load averaged. Only money gong into your account is the $$ total.
Scrap isnt much different than logs. What makes the logger or the scrapper more money is there being more sawmills or scrapyards in the area competing for your product. If theres only one buyer then he gets to tell ya what he'll pay. Take it or leave it.
Dont like it? Buy a mill or pound sound. Such is life.
Different price list for each scale. Want to sell on Scribner Dec. C? The buyer presents that list and so on. That's how it's done here. It's all adjusted so the check is for the same amount no matter the scale used.
Ontario log rule is very good on smaller logs and allows for taper . . But when you saw the log into lumber the mill gains a average of 30% plus on the log scale . On dolye the mill gains a lot more on small logs .
Ed, what would you recommend for the Ontario market? The majority of what I cut on a 12' log is in the 12-18" range.
thats all depends on where its going and what it is , lots of veneer buyers hate 12 ft logs , they want 9 ft 6 inch , 8ft 6 inch and some take 10 ft 6 inch . If the logs are going state side the scale will be dolye. You got to look at what your getting paid and in what dollars, usa or canadian. Hard maple that goes USA side starts at $2500/1000 in usa coin and that has to be the very bottom they will take , Good normal stuff right now average $4500/1000 usa up here and great stuff is above that . I have a good buddy thats starting to cut this week just north of you about an hour or so, He sent me the price list the mill up there offered him as he is mainly cutting hard maple , He is a good logger as I have worked with him before and his Dad . They offered him top grade sawlog in maple $750/1000 and they had 5 grades down to $200/1000 , veneer started at a a buck a ft up to a max of 4 bucks a ft all canadian coin , then I showed him my price list and his logs will go south now . Like I tell most people , cutting the tree is the easy part. Selling the tree is the hard part . Do not burn any bridges as you need every mill at some point but learn what each mill/buyer wants and work with them, you do that and you will not have to sell your logs as they will be phoning you looking for certain logs that they need . Unless your selling rotory veneer to the north which pays ok if thats what your logs real grade is but believe me if your logs are top grade stuff they will just flip them and make the money you should of
now one thing is if your tree is good enough to have 2 high grade veneer logs in it leave it together and sell as one log , Cause the high grade guys only want the butt log
I can second @EHP posts on calling and getting the most for your effort. Also on lengths. Most veneer is a 9' market. 10' is fine and 8' 6" the bare minimum. They don't want 12' and if you cut a 12 they will simply pay for it and then cut back and gain an inch in diameter and have the same volume. The message takeaway is to watch your taper. If a 10' log is 20" and a 9' log is 21" than cut a 9' log and you have gained a free foot of wood to sell to someone else as a sawlog.
I will comment on long veneer logs. The buyers for long veneer logs are often Japanese buyers, they are specifically looking for long logs, 21' and 20' WO is something they pay more for. We've had $6+ straight through on long rift quality WO.
Word of caution. Hard maple veneer pricing seems to be much lower in WV area than in Canada. If I had hard maple that was nice, in WV, I would be bringing in a buyer from Canada or sending logs to canada. Of course, it might be a quality issues..I don't know.
most of our maple goes to the States NW and are bought by USA buyers but now the border is closed the buyers cannot cross it so they just get people to buy for them here , The logs can cross no problem . Biggest reason is on how fast the tree grows , the faster it grows the less the veneer guys want to see it and its bad in red oak here , WF is about 3 or so hours from me but his soil is totally different so have to look your stuff over quite hard for mineral but he has far better red oak if he is cutting right down near Lake Ontario than we do , our red oak does not have great color cause of the light color sand it goes on , now if he is a hour north of the lake thats a total different ball game , kind of like yesterday , my last tree before dark was a 3 ft walnut right beside the field , good and straight , few bumps but the biggest sap ring I have ever seen m like close to 50% , the rest were like say 3 or 4 inches of sap . I'm thinking maybe the crop spray as crop are 20 feet away
Quote from: ehp on December 28, 2020, 08:34:18 AMbelieve me if your logs are top grade stuff they will just flip them and make the money you should of
:50 likes button:
Quote from: mike_belben on December 28, 2020, 11:58:12 AM
Quote from: ehp on December 28, 2020, 08:34:18 AMbelieve me if your logs are top grade stuff they will just flip them and make the money you should of
:50 likes button:
The log buyers I have observed ship like, kind, and quality buy the trailer load. If you can do that you can sell to their buyer.
Quote from: moodnacreek on December 28, 2020, 01:00:45 PM
Quote from: mike_belben on December 28, 2020, 11:58:12 AM
Quote from: ehp on December 28, 2020, 08:34:18 AMbelieve me if your logs are top grade stuff they will just flip them and make the money you should of
:50 likes button:
The log buyers I have observed ship like, kind, and quality buy the trailer load. If you can do that you can sell to their buyer.
Lots of people think if they just had the right phone number they could cut out the middleman. Not all that simple. Freight is expensive. Full trailer loads on good backhaul routes where an OTR flatbed can load during a monsoon reduces both procurement costs(buyers time and expenses) and brings freight within reason.
Yes if you have
good access and trailer load lots and can be relied upon to load the logs next week or maybe a month from now all you need is a phone number. If you have 1/2 of a load of veneer in a cornfield with no gravel and are moving your loader tomorrow; your logs wont be worth nearly as much.
I pretty much always know where the tree I'm cutting at that moment on where that log or logs are going , Right now some days I get zero or just a few veneer while other days I cut a full load of veneer so I setup a deal with the one mill that trucks my veneer back to there yard and then loads it on the trucks that are headed States side at a very low price and then I donot have to deal with loading a 53 ft trailer out a mile from solid ground in a field . I hate dealing with truck drivers that truck logs very little as most of the trucks that truck the veneer are flat bed trailers that run up and down the hwy . Mike if you do not know what you got as far as grade goes believe me the mill will buy your log at saw log price and flip it at veneer price , Its pretty much free money for them as you already paid the trucking to get it to the yard , so sell say a 4500 ft load that the mill buys at $1/ft then resells it at $3/ft every week thats making pretty easy and free money
So true Ed. We spent 3 days on another older loggers site helping him cut out middlemen on a white oak sale. He almost exactly doubled his money but had never done that sort of sale where he had real top end buyers coming to his landing. He was very impressed by his checks.
That said sometimes it is just a matter of finding a better buyer. We have a bridge timber buyer that can take tie logs and double your money. Yet hundreds of trucks a day still find their way to tie yards instead of timber yard. Just about double the money, even after deducting a $500 shipping fee. I don't believe you can ever ever have enough buyers in your contact list. If the buyers really want a log they are top price and they will let you know by paying top price.
Our veneer buyers are sort of funny at the present but then we are sending out about the same amount of veneer as the average Northwest mill.
we are getting more buyers around here now but also more guys buying standing timber , Got a couple new guys buying timber I know nothing about but their paying very high prices on standing timber so either they got something figured out OR have no clue on what their doing , just seems strange that no one knows or ever heard of these guys but its all fair in love or war 8). We will see if they are still around by June
Quote from: ehp on December 28, 2020, 04:35:15 PM
Mike if you do not know what you got as far as grade goes believe me the mill will buy your log at saw log price and flip it at veneer price , Its pretty much free money for them as you already paid the trucking to get it to the yard , so sell say a 4500 ft load that the mill buys at $1/ft then resells it at $3/ft every week thats making pretty easy and free money
It took me a few trips to figure out what class of logs were being held down on price in order to keep a margin open to yard them up and flip a load down the line. I can do good on ties and good on WO staves. Never had access to any walnut or veneer and never did that well on mid grade chubby sawlogs.
I have a negative perspective on what is on the stump in much of tennessee and think nearly all of it needs a serious TSI and 40 more years before harvest to be anything more than pulp and tie. So i basically just decided continuing to try to log was a road to self ruin and that id have to do other things, get a lot of other bottlenecks fixed before i tried it again.
I got busy pushing out hundreds of loads of fill dirt and rock so semi trucks can come in my yard all year. Have got my big loader pretty reliable for loading or unloading. Have room to bring home and concentrate full loads. Got the stump bucket sorted out so it can grab by the ends and load containers. Got the CDL and about 70 thousand miles experience.
Still need to set up firewood processing and maybe stave milling from bolt length salvage trimmings off otherwise junky logs with a good block or two on the butt. Getting on county extension forestors good side. Just got my first little shop frame up this week.
Another lifetime of preparation to not lose any more houses on this next round.
Quote from: nativewolf on December 28, 2020, 06:06:26 PMWe spent 3 days on another older loggers site helping him cut out middlemen on a white oak sale. He almost exactly doubled his money but had never done that sort of sale where he had real top end buyers coming to his landing. He was very impressed by his checks.
That's the selling point that a local forest management company use..
They co-ordinate the logger / truckers and which logs go to what mill / port etc for the best return. They have the buyer contacts, know what each mill is wanting, and what they are paying. Logs get graded at the landing and go out when there is enough to make a truckload to that buyer. They can also run the sums related to trucking, a local mill may pay slightly less, but the trucking costs are much less. Don't pay $200 more for trucking to get $100 more for the logs. Of course they deduct a %, but if if they have increased the payments by 50%, and then take 10% for themselves, the land owner is well ahead and everyone gets paid.
Quote from: stavebuyer on December 28, 2020, 01:58:50 PM
Quote from: moodnacreek on December 28, 2020, 01:00:45 PM
Quote from: mike_belben on December 28, 2020, 11:58:12 AM
Quote from: ehp on December 28, 2020, 08:34:18 AMbelieve me if your logs are top grade stuff they will just flip them and make the money you should of
:50 likes button:
The log buyers I have observed ship like, kind, and quality buy the trailer load. If you can do that you can sell to their buyer.
Lots of people think if they just had the right phone number they could cut out the middleman. Not all that simple. Freight is expensive. Full trailer loads on good backhaul routes where an OTR flatbed can load during a monsoon reduces both procurement costs(buyers time and expenses) and brings freight within reason.
Yes if you have good access and trailer load lots and can be relied upon to load the logs next week or maybe a month from now all you need is a phone number. If you have 1/2 of a load of veneer in a cornfield with no gravel and are moving your loader tomorrow; your logs wont be worth nearly as much.
Sounds like you guys need mule trains vs highway trucks with flat beds. You'd be amazed at where a long logger or a mule train can or will go and you'd don't need near the landing space because you can turn around.
Quote from: Skeans1 on December 28, 2020, 07:46:02 PM
Quote from: stavebuyer on December 28, 2020, 01:58:50 PM
Quote from: moodnacreek on December 28, 2020, 01:00:45 PM
Quote from: mike_belben on December 28, 2020, 11:58:12 AM
Quote from: ehp on December 28, 2020, 08:34:18 AMbelieve me if your logs are top grade stuff they will just flip them and make the money you should of
:50 likes button:
The log buyers I have observed ship like, kind, and quality buy the trailer load. If you can do that you can sell to their buyer.
Lots of people think if they just had the right phone number they could cut out the middleman. Not all that simple. Freight is expensive. Full trailer loads on good backhaul routes where an OTR flatbed can load during a monsoon reduces both procurement costs(buyers time and expenses) and brings freight within reason.
Yes if you have good access and trailer load lots and can be relied upon to load the logs next week or maybe a month from now all you need is a phone number. If you have 1/2 of a load of veneer in a cornfield with no gravel and are moving your loader tomorrow; your logs wont be worth nearly as much.
Sounds like you guys need mule trains vs highway trucks with flat beds. You'd be amazed at where a long logger or a mule train can or will go and you'd don't need near the landing space because you can turn around.
Specialized log trucks are one way high cost per mile and generally cost prohibitive for the multi-state distances veneer logs usually travel.
Quote from: Ianab on December 28, 2020, 06:52:44 PM
Quote from: nativewolf on December 28, 2020, 06:06:26 PMWe spent 3 days on another older loggers site helping him cut out middlemen on a white oak sale. He almost exactly doubled his money but had never done that sort of sale where he had real top end buyers coming to his landing. He was very impressed by his checks.
That's the selling point that a local forest management company use..
They co-ordinate the logger / truckers and which logs go to what mill / port etc for the best return. They have the buyer contacts, know what each mill is wanting, and what they are paying. Logs get graded at the landing and go out when there is enough to make a truckload to that buyer. They can also run the sums related to trucking, a local mill may pay slightly less, but the trucking costs are much less. Don't pay $200 more for trucking to get $100 more for the logs. Of course they deduct a %, but if if they have increased the payments by 50%, and then take 10% for themselves, the land owner is well ahead and everyone gets paid.
Brokers/wholesalers/consolidators serve a useful purpose. But some always think the other piece of the pie is bigger. Successful people understand that there are limits to what they can manage themselves and everyone in the chain needs to prosper or it breaks. Nothing wrong with knowing or demanding your worth but trying to do it all in order to keep it all seldom works out in the long run.
Quote from: Ianab on December 28, 2020, 06:52:44 PM
That's the selling point that a local forest management company use..
They co-ordinate the logger / truckers and which logs go to what mill / port etc for the best return. They have the buyer contacts, know what each mill is wanting, and what they are paying. Logs get graded at the landing and go out when there is enough to make a truckload to that buyer. They can also run the sums related to trucking, a local mill may pay slightly less, but the trucking costs are much less. Don't pay $200 more for trucking to get $100 more for the logs. Of course they deduct a %, but if if they have increased the payments by 50%, and then take 10% for themselves, the land owner is well ahead and everyone gets paid.
That's pretty much what our marketing boards do. So there are very few businesses like that, and a handful that exist are still dependent on the marketing board for at least mill prices and specs which change all the time. But it is more than that to. In fact all the truckers hauling private wood go into the marketing board office to get paid on the mill scale slip. No chasing down woodlot owners for pay. All private wood sold has a levy on it to run the marketing board. Just like selling milk, only those guys have to pay two levels of government, provincial milk boards and federal. The producer, of anything, gives up a percentage to marketing, shipping, and whatever else someone can come up with. :D
My grandfather used to say about customs, "as long as they draw a breath, they'll collect a cheque". :D :D
As a sawmill [a very small one] I can buy all kinds of logs I can't really use. If the logs I want are mixed in a load of the other kind I may buy the whole load or loads. This is done for 2 reasons, first to get the logs I badly need and 2nd to keep the logger coming back. Those unwanted logs have to go before they spoil and I may have to finish cutting the branches etc. off them to help sell them. Also I have scaled and metal detected them. I hope to get a little more than I paid. Last spring I couldn't resell anything but the logger got paid. Oh and here is another thing; if the logger really thinks I under scaled or somehow cheated him , he won't come back.
Well in some other log price news: YP has stopped moving up, we are at $600/mbf intl scale for prime butt logs and I expect that is where we start cutting.
Quote from: stavebuyer on December 29, 2020, 04:12:20 AM
Quote from: Skeans1 on December 28, 2020, 07:46:02 PM
Quote from: stavebuyer on December 28, 2020, 01:58:50 PM
Quote from: moodnacreek on December 28, 2020, 01:00:45 PM
Quote from: mike_belben on December 28, 2020, 11:58:12 AM
Quote from: ehp on December 28, 2020, 08:34:18 AMbelieve me if your logs are top grade stuff they will just flip them and make the money you should of
:50 likes button:
The log buyers I have observed ship like, kind, and quality buy the trailer load. If you can do that you can sell to their buyer.
Lots of people think if they just had the right phone number they could cut out the middleman. Not all that simple. Freight is expensive. Full trailer loads on good backhaul routes where an OTR flatbed can load during a monsoon reduces both procurement costs(buyers time and expenses) and brings freight within reason.
Yes if you have good access and trailer load lots and can be relied upon to load the logs next week or maybe a month from now all you need is a phone number. If you have 1/2 of a load of veneer in a cornfield with no gravel and are moving your loader tomorrow; your logs wont be worth nearly as much.
Sounds like you guys need mule trains vs highway trucks with flat beds. You'd be amazed at where a long logger or a mule train can or will go and you'd don't need near the landing space because you can turn around.
Specialized log trucks are one way high cost per mile and generally cost prohibitive for the multi-state distances veneer logs usually travel.
I swap our truck over from fifth wheel to long logger in about half an hour. What's more costly is not being able to move wood in the wet if the trailer is piggy backed you can get up into places about like a pickup can. What's your average distance one way to the mill? It's not uncommon for us to run the trucks over 100 miles one way and come back empty.
The eastern seaboard is so developed with roads and freight lanes saturated with trucks and keeping the prices relatively low compared to running your own transport. i think historically there has been no need to do the long logger setup outside of maybe specialized situations. Our forests are half as tall as yours, so our logs are too. A flat can run 60ft sticks on most interstates. Ive never seen a sawlog that long.
In loadboard freight 100 miles is basically saying im home. Under 2hours from base id just deadhead back.
Quote from: mike_belben on December 29, 2020, 11:16:17 AM
The eastern seaboard is so developed with roads and freight lanes saturated with trucks and keeping the prices relatively low compared to running your own transport. i think historically there has been no need to do the long logger setup outside of maybe specialized situations. Our forests are half as tall as yours, so our logs are too. A flat can run 60ft sticks on most interstates. Ive never seen a sawlog that long.
In loadboard freight 100 miles is basically saying im home. Under 2hours from base id just deadhead back.
A long logger can be converted to a short logger with a rack that set into the bunks. If you want to do a short setup that still can get around running a fifth wheel hitch skip the hay rack they don't track. They make a turkey rack that has a king pin it uses a log trailer and reach so the trailer will track plus get around a lot better then a flat bed trailer setup.
Within 30 miles here to our markets, including veneer. But we don't have the big wood for the big prices up here because after 20" a hardwood is going down hill in quality in these parts. A few rare gems, but very rare. Severe weather, a lot of ice storms and heavy wet snow and wind. Seen the weather ruin a whole woodlot that had TSI work done on it. Not uncommon to see. Kinda takes the wind out of your sails, after you did a great job. ::)
Our qs is about 370 miles, veneer is at least 300, bridge timbers are 174, some walnut goes to Canada
Quote from: Skeans1 on December 29, 2020, 11:31:07 AM
Quote from: mike_belben on December 29, 2020, 11:16:17 AM
The eastern seaboard is so developed with roads and freight lanes saturated with trucks and keeping the prices relatively low compared to running your own transport. i think historically there has been no need to do the long logger setup outside of maybe specialized situations. Our forests are half as tall as yours, so our logs are too. A flat can run 60ft sticks on most interstates. Ive never seen a sawlog that long.
In loadboard freight 100 miles is basically saying im home. Under 2hours from base id just deadhead back.
A long logger can be converted to a short logger with a rack that set into the bunks. If you want to do a short setup that still can get around running a fifth wheel hitch skip the hay rack they don't track. They make a turkey rack that has a king pin it uses a log trailer and reach so the trailer will track plus get around a lot better then a flat bed trailer setup.
Im sure it all works great but you cant buy what isnt for sale. The east coast just doesnt have west coast iron to purchase. Also doesnt have the giant wood to need it.
Quote from: mike_belben on December 29, 2020, 06:30:45 PM
Quote from: Skeans1 on December 29, 2020, 11:31:07 AM
Quote from: mike_belben on December 29, 2020, 11:16:17 AM
The eastern seaboard is so developed with roads and freight lanes saturated with trucks and keeping the prices relatively low compared to running your own transport. i think historically there has been no need to do the long logger setup outside of maybe specialized situations. Our forests are half as tall as yours, so our logs are too. A flat can run 60ft sticks on most interstates. Ive never seen a sawlog that long.
In loadboard freight 100 miles is basically saying im home. Under 2hours from base id just deadhead back.
A long logger can be converted to a short logger with a rack that set into the bunks. If you want to do a short setup that still can get around running a fifth wheel hitch skip the hay rack they don't track. They make a turkey rack that has a king pin it uses a log trailer and reach so the trailer will track plus get around a lot better then a flat bed trailer setup.
Im sure it all works great but you cant buy what isnt for sale. The east coast just doesnt have west coast iron to purchase. Also doesnt have the giant wood to need it.
I have had a couple loggers that used them for tree length pulp. Veneer logs are 9'/10' and doubles. 400-500 mile hauls. They either get backhauled on flat beds or they pass on the logs. Other than the occasional pine power pole going south to the gulf coast all logs in the mid-south get sawed local, go north(great lakes) for veneer, or to a port for export. Like Mike said more than 100 miles you better are off finding a flat bed needing a backhaul.
1 mill for me is about 30 miles from me , the other maybe 5 miles right now , veneer can be pretty much up to half way around the world
Quote from: mike_belben on December 29, 2020, 11:16:17 AM
The eastern seaboard is so developed with roads and freight lanes saturated with trucks and keeping the prices relatively low compared to running your own transport. i think historically there has been no need to do the long logger setup outside of maybe specialized situations. Our forests are half as tall as yours, so our logs are too. A flat can run 60ft sticks on most interstates. Ive never seen a sawlog that long.
In loadboard freight 100 miles is basically saying im home. Under 2hours from base id just deadhead back.
Mike, here's a 68'-6" pine that will make a 12"x12" with no wane. Didn't go in a truck, I just drove the skidder up the road.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14240/20140408_152150_28129.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1396989025)
👆👆Braggart😁😂
I've seen the Mennonites skid firewood 4 miles down pavement, no wheels under it. :D They do a lot of stuff after dark. Including fetching a mystery bale of hay from a field sitting within feet of the US border at 3:00 am in the morning. A field they don't own. ;)
That sort of stuff must make them much loved 😬
Theyre pretty good around here. But theres always a contingent that likes to throw stones.
And I always herd Maine moose tastes better than Canadian moose.
Quote from: moodnacreek on December 30, 2020, 12:31:01 PM
And I always herd Maine moose tastes better than Canadian moose.
There's a difference between fact and hearsay. :D
Brings to mind the neighbor making the comment "they say his syrup tastes like wood smoke", when it was not boiled down with wood and she never had any to taste. :D
Quote from: moodnacreek on December 30, 2020, 12:31:01 PM
And I always herd Maine moose tastes better than Canadian moose.
If you had ever seen the games played on the Maine / Quebec border during hunting season.
Not sure how many people sell white oak quartersaw logs but prices are up a bit, the whole quartersaw market looks to be recovering. Chestnut oak is up to over $2.20/bdft for good 21" and up logs. Push a bit and get $2.50 I guess. @stavebuyer (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=15189) might know more, he's closer to the quartersaw market leaders like graff and taylor (whatever they are called today).
What makes a log quartersaw specific say versus a good stave or rotary or slicer veneer?
not really sure why but got $6/ft for that walnut with huge sap ring , thats pretty good for stuff like that
Quote from: mike_belben on December 31, 2020, 09:16:45 AM
What makes a log quartersaw specific say versus a good stave or rotary or slicer veneer?
Diameter and grade mostly. 18" and up but it can be a 1 or even no side clear log. Big is best. We sent some big 2 sided logs at 2.20, which is good for a 2 side clear log, even if it is 28" dbh. Big red oak like that is $0.50/bdft.
Quote from: ehp on December 31, 2020, 09:55:03 AM
not really sure why but got $6/ft for that walnut with huge sap ring , thats pretty good for stuff like that
wow, that is good. Congrats!
Ya walnut seems to be red hot right now. Some guts are paying crazy prices on standing walnut right now . Almost done this job and got another small and I mean small job to do about 2 miles away but there is walnut in it so maybe good timing to cut it . Nothing very big . Stuff like 20 to 30 inch
Quote from: SwampDonkey on December 30, 2020, 04:49:15 AM
I've seen the Mennonites skid firewood 4 miles down pavement, no wheels under it.
"Oh, they would never do that." How much you wanna bet? :D :D :D
Down the pavement by the Royalton church on the Crawford Road. Tractor with Farmi.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11009/firewood-road.jpg)
Firewood yard a 200 yards from there.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11009/firewood-yard.jpg)
Big news here is that the veneer buyers are looking for quality chestnut oak butt logs, $2.5 here in northern VA on the landing. More as you get closer to Ohio where I bet it is $3 or more now.
White oak veneer continues to smolder along, we averaged $4.75 on our last load. Walnut veneer is supposed to be smoking but I have only had good-crap saw logs, $5-1 ($1 is 9" firewood). Going to find out in a few weeks.
YP veneer is indeed $1.20, $1 on our landing. I hear $1.5 in Ohio.
YP sawlogs are starting at $0.70 on international and down to $0.350 for no side clear junk on international scale (which is something to think about because 12" limby no side clear YP stems are normally about impossible to move).
So I was chatting with the buyer who bought 40k standing walnut from us 2 years ago. We did well, no complains . He sold the best log as a 32' veneer triple log $19,620. 8). $20/bdft
I am glad he did well, we only sold 1/2 volume maybe cut some more in October. Maybe sell some myself.
I just heard the price of 'highly valuable' craigslist front yard iron clad walnut triple. Chaching.
Quote from: nativewolf on March 22, 2021, 11:21:49 AM
So I was chatting with the buyer who bought 40k standing walnut from us 2 years ago. We did well, no complains . He sold the best log as a 32' veneer triple log $19,620. 8). $20/bdft
I am glad he did well, we only sold 1/2 volume maybe cut some more in October. Maybe sell some myself.
Very nice. How many trees were there in that deal
We maybe cut 120 altogether in two sales. He cut the very best tree and 4 others that were monsters plus maybe 80 others. Some had a bit of peck, a few were very pecky. I've got to cut another 20 this year, wish EHP or one of our other real hand cutters were heading south sooner. They'd have them down while we were fussing with our YP and oaks.
In the two years since then Walnut has gone up and down but $5/bdft standing was a rich rich price in that year. We were very happy. Today with good sawlogs hitting 5 I think we'd do even better but still we would likely have cut it ourselves.
120 people out of work in the black hills, this mill relied on 80% of their material coming from USFS and I guess that's not happening Hill City saw mill closes, eliminating 120 jobs | Local | rapidcityjournal.com (https://rapidcityjournal.com/business/local/hill-city-saw-mill-closes-eliminating-120-jobs/article_7d329c67-85ef-5265-9992-f34cdc545cf1.html)
Doesn't matter if the price is low or high if you can't get material at any price ::)
Someone buy up the equipment and move it down south where that oversupply is before it ends up overseas ;D
Here's a link that I use. Tennessee Prices | Timber Update (https://timberupdate.com/timber-prices/tennessee-prices/)
Thats a ripoff unless its stumpage pricing. I didnt see a stipulation. For example $425/thousand on white oak "sawtimber" lumps all of it into one grade. A WO tie log brings about $400/mbf.. Staves are $1,000 to $2,000 so theyre gonna pay tie for a stave?
.70cents a foot on walnut?
The vagueness of the site makes it a challenge to know if theyre sharks looking for a little old lady with a back 40 or not. I suspect the price sheet is claiming those are delivered to mill prices and youll get a cut of it. If so, theyre ripoffs claiming not to be. If theyre paying those prices for stumpage upfront, then its a totally different situation. I cant tell.
Buying the entire forest at the lowest sawlog price is one common ripoff strategy. Everything thats better than pulp will make a tie. Paying "shares" of say 50/50 to the landowner at a tie log rate for all harvested WO means that everything better than tie log isnt shared with the landowner. Everything better than a tie will be sorted and sold for its top price but the landowner will get paid as if it were a tie. Logger keeps the spread, so on really good logs the lamdowner might only get 10 or 20% of the true value.
"I will go 50/50 on the white oak at $425/mbf" is how that will sound.
A better deal for the landowner is "i will go 50/50 on everything WO and i get $425/mbf for tie, 550 on common sawlogs and about $1500/mbf avg on staves, maybe better on some other stuff.
If you ask the ripoff artist a rate on the prime A, stave and veneer he will know you arent gonna be fooled by the lump pricing.
These are realistic prices in middle TN without much marketing.. Savy guys like EHP, native wolf and so il logger do much better in specialty marketing.
Quote from: mike_belben on March 24, 2021, 12:43:19 PM
Thats a ripoff unless its stumpage pricing. I didnt see a stipulation. For example $425/thousand on white oak "sawtimber" lumps all of it into one grade. A WO tie log brings about $400/mbf.. Staves are $1,000 to $2,000 so theyre gonna pay tie for a stave?
.70cents a foot on walnut?
The vagueness of the site makes it a challenge to know if theyre sharks looking for a little old lady with a back 40 or not. I suspect the price sheet is claiming those are delivered to mill prices and youll get a cut of it. If so, theyre ripoffs claiming not to be. If theyre paying those prices for stumpage upfront, then its a totally different situation. I cant tell.
Buying the entire forest at the lowest sawlog price is one common ripoff strategy. Everything thats better than pulp will make a tie. Paying "shares" of say 50/50 to the landowner at a tie log rate for all harvested WO means that everything better than tie log isnt shared with the landowner. Everything better than a tie will be sorted and sold for its top price but the landowner will get paid as if it were a tie. Logger keeps the spread, so on really good logs the lamdowner might only get 10 or 20% of the true value.
"I will go 50/50 on the white oak at $425/mbf" is how that will sound.
A better deal for the landowner is "i will go 50/50 on everything WO and i get $425/mbf for tie and about $1500/mbf avg on staves, maybe better on some other stuff.
These are realistic prices in middle TN without much marketing.. Savy guys like EHP, native wolf and so il logger do much better in specialty marketing.
It's my understanding that it's stumpage and not delivered to the mill. I could be wrong though.
I wished the State still published a quarterly like they did a few years ago.
it would be very prudent to verify. I dont mean to slander anyone and i have no knowledge of them. Such practices give loggers a very bad reputation throughout the state. Terrible pay and terrible practices. The freedom we enjoy has a consequence, anyone can jump in.
According to that, looks like I hit the right time, a few years ago, getting a Pine stand thinned, and got 15.25 for pulpwood.
I read it as standing prices. Still quite low.
If you click the Georgia link, those prices are stumpage prices.
So, I cut/sold 11,500 last week, 6,000 feet was red/black oak, 3200 was hickory, 1200 poplar(the poplar was just avg at best), rest was just a couple hard maple and 1 white oak. red oak avg .56, all logs avg .47. thats everything, tree run, 15 stump cut, pallet, ties, grade, no veneer of course. All sold to one sawmill. doyle scale. I'm in south central ky, about half way between louisville and nashville. what do you guys think about those prices? Sounds a lot cheaper than what y'all been talking about, but....
Thats a touch better probably than i would do if i brought everything to any one mill on the cumberland plateau. A combination of poor juvenile timber and too many loggers willing to slave away for nothing. Theres no way i could break $2/bf on anything localish at all.
Quote from: Hogdaddy on March 24, 2021, 10:26:23 PM
So, I cut/sold 11,500 last week, 6,000 feet was red/black oak, 3200 was hickory, 1200 poplar(the poplar was just avg at best), rest was just a couple hard maple and 1 white oak. red oak avg .56, all logs avg .47. thats everything, tree run, 15 stump cut, pallet, ties, grade, no veneer of course. All sold to one sawmill. doyle scale. I'm in south central ky, about half way between louisville and nashville. what do you guys think about those prices? Sounds a lot cheaper than what y'all been talking about, but....
Well first off congrats on sticking it out, it's been a tough few years hasn't it. Overall I'd say probably not terrible considering it was sent to 1 mill.
Without a doubt the best way to increase income is to be able store enough logs of a particular grade so that you can have a truckload of a particular product go to the highest bidder for that product. Still lets talk about what might be done. If I understand you cut and bucked 15 trees, totaling 11,500 bdft doyle? There were some big trees. Size matters so if you have big timber that's good.
Right now oak tie logs are going for $0.55 doyle here in VA. So basically everything just for tie logs would have almost gotten to the same value (leaving the YP out of it for now). Hickory would sell at a discount. Decent hickory logs 3 side clear stuff are selling for $0.60-80 /bdft to exporters. Hickory veneer, 4sc with some good heartwood, is going for up to $1000/mbf. Veneer in our case has quite a bit of trucking costs so our veneer pricing could be better if we were closer to Ohio.
If you have large diameter long rough logs call around and see if you can find a mill cutting bridge timbers, they pay a pretty good premium for a long tie log quality log. In lynchburg VA the oak and hickory would have sold for $700/MBF as a 30' stick if it had a 15" top and was straight. That is international so converting it back to doyle would add at least 10% on top so. Exporters are paying $1600/mbf for the RO and Black oak veneer and they are buying black oak. Best sawlogs are going for $0.70/bdft here at local sawmill.
Poplar is very strong right now. Our best poplar mill raised their lowest log price to $0.325 international scale (basically the top junky log). We strip the veneer out and send the rest to them and are averaging $0.53. Now that's a huge grain of salt right there, international scale is very helpful, 3 local mils buy on that and it makes a difference. This mill specializes in poplar, if they need it they buy it. I do know that in TN poplar is very strong as well. If your mill is not paying $700 or thereabouts for the best quality poplar than they are not paying a competitive price. That's all the insight I can give you into the poplar price.
All in all I'd say that if I were in your shoes I'd spend a few days on the phone. I'd try to find some mill cutting bridge timbers. They'd buy up your oak and hickory in longer lengths so there is less bucking (have to be able to move around a 30' piece of oak though). I'd see if you could save up enough money so you can go a month holding onto the best logs and get a log buyer to come in to look at export logs. Sometimes it's hard to save enough money to let you hold onto 80 good logs that would interest a log buyer.
Quote from: nativewolf on March 25, 2021, 07:06:25 AM
Quote from: Hogdaddy on March 24, 2021, 10:26:23 PM
So, I cut/sold 11,500 last week, 6,000 feet was red/black oak, 3200 was hickory, 1200 poplar(the poplar was just avg at best), rest was just a couple hard maple and 1 white oak. red oak avg .56, all logs avg .47. thats everything, tree run, 15 stump cut, pallet, ties, grade, no veneer of course. All sold to one sawmill. doyle scale. I'm in south central ky, about half way between louisville and nashville. what do you guys think about those prices? Sounds a lot cheaper than what y'all been talking about, but....
Well first off congrats on sticking it out, it's been a tough few years hasn't it. Overall I'd say probably not terrible considering it was sent to 1 mill.
Without a doubt the best way to increase income is to be able store enough logs of a particular grade so that you can have a truckload of a particular product go to the highest bidder for that product. Still lets talk about what might be done. If I understand you cut and bucked 15 trees, totaling 11,500 bdft doyle? There were some big trees. Size matters so if you have big timber that's good.
Right now oak tie logs are going for $0.55 doyle here in VA. So basically everything just for tie logs would have almost gotten to the same value (leaving the YP out of it for now). Hickory would sell at a discount. Decent hickory logs 3 side clear stuff are selling for $0.60-80 /bdft to exporters. Hickory veneer, 4sc with some good heartwood, is going for up to $1000/mbf. Veneer in our case has quite a bit of trucking costs so our veneer pricing could be better if we were closer to Ohio.
If you have large diameter long rough logs call around and see if you can find a mill cutting bridge timbers, they pay a pretty good premium for a long tie log quality log. In lynchburg VA the oak and hickory would have sold for $700/MBF as a 30' stick if it had a 15" top and was straight. That is international so converting it back to doyle would add at least 10% on top so. Exporters are paying $1600/mbf for the RO and Black oak veneer and they are buying black oak. Best sawlogs are going for $0.70/bdft here at local sawmill.
Poplar is very strong right now. Our best poplar mill raised their lowest log price to $0.325 international scale (basically the top junky log). We strip the veneer out and send the rest to them and are averaging $0.53. Now that's a huge grain of salt right there, international scale is very helpful, 3 local mils buy on that and it makes a difference. This mill specializes in poplar, if they need it they buy it. I do know that in TN poplar is very strong as well. If your mill is not paying $700 or thereabouts for the best quality poplar than they are not paying a competitive price. That's all the insight I can give you into the poplar price.
All in all I'd say that if I were in your shoes I'd spend a few days on the phone. I'd try to find some mill cutting bridge timbers. They'd buy up your oak and hickory in longer lengths so there is less bucking (have to be able to move around a 30' piece of oak though). I'd see if you could save up enough money so you can go a month holding onto the best logs and get a log buyer to come in to look at export logs. Sometimes it's hard to save enough money to let you hold onto 80 good logs that would interest a log buyer.
Oh no, the timber is no where that big, probably 45 trees or so to make the 11,500 bft... Thanks for the input!
As far as holding logs, that's no problem. I just don't know any export buyers in my area, guess I need to do some scouting around for more buyers.
But, as far as quality,, the logs were just average.. the red oak was the best, but they start get bumpy up the tree anywhere from 16' on up
I also thought it was 15 trees.. Whatd you mean by 15 stump cut then?
sounds like you got normal price for normal timber, if it were where i live. I guess we have comparable situations.
News today on RO:
Doyle: $1000 prime sawlogs, $800+ on good clear logs, $800 for large 3SC. Lower quality log prices are way up as well.
Just like with our YP pricing seeing this move up on lower grade logs is really key.
It's about time.
Quote from: Tacotodd on March 25, 2021, 09:49:17 PM
It's about time.
Absolutely! That's from a very very large industry player so if they are paying that than it should show up across the East Coast
How far is the trucking?
Quote from: Southside on March 25, 2021, 10:39:57 PM
How far is the trucking?
That is picked up on landing for us. I imagine that price would hold down to Augusta county if you were looking to sell some RO. However, that is really most useful for those sticks that are either large diameter or short. For long 15"-20" 30' top $ RO to Long Island $700 intl
Quote from: mike_belben on March 25, 2021, 01:16:47 PM
I also thought it was 15 trees.. Whatd you mean by 15 stump cut then?
sounds like you got normal price for normal timber, if it were where i live. I guess we have comparable situations.
15" stump cut. Id' say your right on the similar situations.
So lots of news today.
Hard Maple- wow...smoking hot. 20% increase in generic sawlog prices this week. I don't have a stick, hardly any soft maple either. Roughly 1200-1300 international scale for 12" or 13" 3 sided
Walnut up 5%
White up 5%
HM is the story of the week with 2 mill sending emails begging.
@ehp (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=1195) What you hear from the great north? @BargeMonkey (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=24634) - time to push on the sales price, just basic logs. Even junky stuff seems to pushing a buck.
It's about time that some loggers are getting paid what they are worth, especially considering the extremes that they must go through. Besides that, now they are just being able to keep up with inflation.
Quote from: Tacotodd on April 13, 2021, 12:44:26 PM
It's about time that some loggers are getting paid what they are worth, especially considering the extremes that they must go through. Besides that, now they are just being able to keep up with inflation.
I am happy for the guys in the north, lots of pulp mill closures in the last few years and they need a shot in the arm. This should be great for MI, WI, and New England loggers
I'm not cutting hardwood this week. I'm cutting pine and its going ok on price . The top grade is the same but I got the other grades up $50/1000 above what they were paying so I'm happy . Good hard maple has been hot here the last 6 plus months . I know I could sell all I can find at very good prices . White oak is up in sawlog price as well
I cant pound it fast enough, finishing up this junk job and go hammer out 8-10ld of decent hard maple and ash this week before the price drops. Places are getting pretty packed around here but the prices are still up.
That's good news about h.m. but warm weather is coming.
Quote from: BargeMonkey on April 13, 2021, 08:08:47 PM
I cant pound it fast enough, finishing up this junk job and go hammer out 8-10ld of decent hard maple and ash this week before the price drops. Places are getting pretty packed around here but the prices are still up.
AMEX is literally begging for HM logs.
Quote from: moodnacreek on April 13, 2021, 08:43:20 PM
That's good news about h.m. but warm weather is coming.
Yep, hope to get everything on the ground this month. Then forward and sell in May, cleanup in June.
Crossties in oak are up to $0.60 international
Hardwood Market Report this week for tractor trailer load quantity of hardwood lumber, rough, kiln dried shows all hardwood wholesale prices are sill going up strong. FAS white oak $3.60/bf. Hard maple $2.63. Soft maple $2.32. Red oak $1.86. Walnut $4.88. Some comments:
Ash- Sawmills are readily moving all developing green ash production. In fact, buyers, especially exporting concentration yards, are asking for more than mills can supply.
Cherry - Sales contacts report brisk kiln dried cherry business.
Hard maple - With white and painted finishes over tight grained whitewoods the prevailing fashion, especially in cabinets, hard maple business is booming.
Soft maple - Soft maple has gained traction in the marketplace. Some end users that prefer hard maple, but which cannot find enough, have become more receptive to soft maple.
#2A and 3A oak. Competition for #2A and 3A red oak and white oak is intense.
White Oak - Sawmills and downstream operations are struggling to produce or procure enough white oak to meet demand.Virtually every grade/thickness combination of green and kiln dried white oak is scarce.
Red Oak- Competitive pressures are pushing prices for some items to the highest levels since 2013 and 2014.
Yellow poplar- Demand for this species remains vibrant. Consumption by the moulding/millwork industry is especially strong.
Walnut - Shortages and robust demand are elevating market intensity for walnut. Sales contacts indicate all grades and thicknesses are moving quickly, and they are frequently losing orders for lack of supply. Chinese buyers are assertively purchasing walnut logs and lumber. At the same time, demand is increasing in the US.
Thanks Danny. I'll be sure to push on our walnut pricing.
Interesting thing about to occur in WO. WO QS market traditionally prices logs much more highly than flat sawn( paying more for large logs) . Today the flat sawn lumber is reaching QS lumber pricing and that is going to put pressure on the large WO. I've never seen Flat sawn WO priced at QS WO pricing.
Wondering if @YellowHammer (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=11488) is seeing that impact.
I wonder for the soft maple is that just white or can it be wormy . Our wormy price for logs is quite low compared to white color
Yes, I am seeing that, and it's already having an impact, as customers who traditionally get QS WO lumber from other vendors are now struggling to get it, for those reasons, and are buying me out as fast as I can produce it. WO log prices have jumped, and I'm having to make adjustments.
Quote from: YellowHammer on April 14, 2021, 12:35:54 PM
Yes, I am seeing that, and it's already having an impact, as customers who traditionally get QS WO lumber from other vendors are now struggling to get it, for those reasons, and are buying me out as fast as I can produce it. WO log prices have jumped, and I'm having to make adjustments.
What are you paying for a 3 sided 20" type log if you don't mind me asking.
As for us on the QS we average from $1.5-2.20 for really nice logs. That's on the landing, they truck. Wish we had a QS mill a bit closer because trucking is adding $1200/load.
The soft maple price is for white only, not wormy.
Ok that makes sense cause our white is almost double our wormy log price . We use to get good money for wormy but not the last 2 years
Hey guys, any updates or are things holding about the same? Traded for a bunch that has about 10k feet of walnut, most will be lumber logs... is it still holding up?
I don't know about hardwood prices this morning but softwood on Bloomburg Market report this morning is $1482.50 per mbf. I was shocked at the price of a barrel oil, it jumped $3. to $69.50. They were talking that gas would get to $3.00 a gallon by memorial day here in New England.
Quote from: Hogdaddy on May 04, 2021, 11:55:06 AM
Hey guys, any updates or are things holding about the same? Traded for a bunch that has about 10k feet of walnut, most will be lumber logs... is it still holding up?
You will be fine for now, the end of the export season might cause a slight drop. Right now good sawlogs top out $4-5. I get $1/bdft on limbs/top logs at 10" or so in 7-8' sections. 2.50 is normal for a 3 sided small sawlog. Much of that has to get trucked to Ohio and that's quite a freight bill, if you are closer you will make more or if you can truck. Especially on lower grade logs this makes a difference. Know your mill specs, some take to 7' some need 8' and some Amish mills take 6'. That makes a huge difference (For me a big fat crotchy butt log going to an Amish mill with double heart but 26" in diameter can be 6' but it is no good for export or the non Amish buyers). On that sort of big double hearted log we still get $3/bdft whereas if it were oak or any other species it would be left in the woods or pulped.
YP is smoking hot. $900/thousand is not hard to find for good logs. 2 sided big logs at $600-750 and that makes all the difference cutting junky old field YP (sometimes I can't give it away).
RO just moved up a bit in good sawlogs.
I've been selling soft pine for .10 cents a bf, not much change around here. I believe the black walnut is about $4 a bf. With fuel costs going up.. not sure in the future.
Quote from: nativewolf on May 05, 2021, 08:03:17 AM
Quote from: Hogdaddy on May 04, 2021, 11:55:06 AM
Hey guys, any updates or are things holding about the same? Traded for a bunch that has about 10k feet of walnut, most will be lumber logs... is it still holding up?
You will be fine for now, the end of the export season might cause a slight drop. Right now good sawlogs top out $4-5. I get $1/bdft on limbs/top logs at 10" or so in 7-8' sections. 2.50 is normal for a 3 sided small sawlog. Much of that has to get trucked to Ohio and that's quite a freight bill, if you are closer you will make more or if you can truck. Especially on lower grade logs this makes a difference. Know your mill specs, some take to 7' some need 8' and some Amish mills take 6'. That makes a huge difference (For me a big fat crotchy butt log going to an Amish mill with double heart but 26" in diameter can be 6' but it is no good for export or the non Amish buyers). On that sort of big double hearted log we still get $3/bdft whereas if it were oak or any other species it would be left in the woods or pulped.
YP is smoking hot. $900/thousand is not hard to find for good logs. 2 sided big logs at $600-750 and that makes all the difference cutting junky old field YP (sometimes I can't give it away).
RO just moved up a bit in good sawlogs.
Thank you, NW
Quote from: Ed_K on May 05, 2021, 07:27:28 AM
They were talking that gas would get to $3.00 a gallon by memorial day here in New England.
My local gas station went to 2.99 yesterday. He is usually higher than other stations but is the only station within 12 miles of me.
I kinda like the way "they" warn us that gas prices will go up. ::) Than if we complain, "they" can so, we warned you. ::)
Hoping we can keep this thread to LOG prices, there was a thread on lumber prices that had turned into a general inflation/price of life thread.
Trying to keep folks updated with pricing as we hear about it, good and bad, on species that we deal with hoping it might help someone on the forum.
Just to help keep the thread going, I got about 11,450 ft of saw logs in this week. All tree run, cutting it pretty hard,(that's what the landowner wants) 7400 ft was redoak, 900 ft was poplar, rest was a few white oak and hickory. Averaged .54. Mat logs 16', 10" and up, 18',12" and up averaged .47. Just one small load, about 1500ft.
Good to see mat logs market is still there. Gas pipelines business is going to go bye bye but it should be replaced by high tension lines.
You do realize there is a Colonial Pipeline tank farm not too far from you with a couple million gallons of fuel right? Not to mention the others they own. There was no actual shortage.
Talking about mats for building new pipelines.
Of course that tank farm was less than 5 miles from my old home, don't miss it. Plenty of gas there I hear, not enough truck drivers to keep up with the idiots filling washtubs with fuel.
RE truck drivers. Shortages everywhere. Every mill we ship to is short drivers. I have heard of a logging outfit in Alabama with 25 trucks and trailers and down to 4 drivers. Logging outfits constrained by trucking in danger of losing equipment.
Can't find good help, every place I know is hiring drivers, i was getting my Mack inspected last week and offered a job driving for scale as many hours as I wanted. 🤷♂️
Im cutting pretty rough wood, somes decent, i had one last week go for almost 900 bucks. Averaging almost .85-1.00 straight thru, big hearted ash, nasty maple, and the few real good logs, take it as long as you can. Walked the buyer thru that big RO job ive got, he figured close to the same on footage I did, alot.. 😆
They talked about a fuel shortage, price went down again, my cost is 2.7031 all weekend, the ethanol free 91 is where the moneys at and the people just dont care.
Quote from: nativewolf on May 16, 2021, 09:32:23 AM
Talking about mats for building new pipelines.
Of course that tank farm was less than 5 miles from my old home, don't miss it. Plenty of gas there I hear, not enough truck drivers to keep up with the idiots filling washtubs with fuel.
RE truck drivers. Shortages everywhere. Every mill we ship to is short drivers. I have heard of a logging outfit in Alabama with 25 trucks and trailers and down to 4 drivers. Logging outfits constrained by trucking in danger of losing equipment.
Trucking shortage out here is real. Tons of wood at a couple if mills right now that they just can't ship. They're actually thinking if putting guys on quota bc they're yards are full of wood, wood that's already sold but can't get shipped. Millions of feet of it
Any of you are welcome to get your CDL and be gone a week at a time for $13/hr.
Theres not a driver shortage. There is a shortage of carriers willing to pay drivers what it requires to make good workers abandon their families for weeks to make a worthless buck.
I got offered an equipment operating job other day. Leave monday, home friday. $15/hour. Oh wow let me pack my bags.
Im cutting brush and doing yard work for a neighbor with cancer @20 an hour and thats half price of what a clearing saw can make here. Mcdonalds is hiring at 13. So screw trucking for under $100k. If you havent lived it you dont know how taxing it is on a family. You spend much of your check trying to solve the new problems going OTR creates in your life. Then your wife has a nervous breakdown and your kids dont know you anymore.
log truck drivers here make way over double that and home ever night
Quote from: mike_belben on May 16, 2021, 11:37:33 AM
Any of you are welcome to get your CDL and be gone a week at a time for $13/hr.
Theres not a driver shortage. There is a shortage of carriers willing to pay drivers what it requires to make good workers abandon their families for weeks to make a worthless buck.
I got offered an equipment operating job other day. Leave monday, home friday. $15/hour. Oh wow let me pack my bags.
Im cutting brush and doing yard work for a neighbor with cancer @20 an hour and thats half price of what a clearing saw can make here. Mcdonalds is hiring at 13. So screw trucking for under $100k. If you havent lived it you dont know how taxing it is on a family. You spend much of your check trying to solve the new problems going OTR creates in your life. Then your wife has a nervous breakdown and your kids dont know you anymore
Quote from: mike_belben on May 16, 2021, 11:37:33 AM
Idk what company that is but we deal with flatbeds, log trucks, and dump trucks and all of them are clearing 100k per year. Especially the flatbeds. All the contract log truck guys are driving new rigs and no dump truck works for under $100 per hr most $125 and $150 for truck and transfer.
If you know anyone who needs a trucking job I know lots of guys willing to hire and train with family wage jobs. My cousins first job outta truck school was $60k + and full Benny's
Quilbilly the bottom quote of me is actually you talking right? I know the quote system can do its own thing on you pretty often.
Quote from: mike_belben on May 16, 2021, 09:52:09 PM
Quilbilly the bottom quote of me is actually you talking right? I know the quote system can do its own thing on you pretty often.
Ya, then I went to edit and thought... These folks are smart enough to figure it out and I'm too lazy fix my own misquote
Gotcha.
I am in a historically closed off, isolated region that did not have much paper dollars or outside influence until somewhat recently and it changes slower than the rest of the world which is what drew me to it. The old guard grew up on peanuts and doesnt part with it. It is a very low wage area but costs are quickly rising as northern refugees flood in with 401ks and sold home lotto tickets.
I got a call to come help as a farmhand for a neighbor that ive been trying to make a connection with for a long time for a lot of reasons. Pays $10/hr. I said for that i will show up once a week and work like a slave, but its only for my education's sake. I dont know enough about farming or cows.
I am in western NY. My neighbor has about 30K ft. of hemlock she would like to sell on the stump. I told her I would try to find out what she should get for it. I am going to take a look at it as soon as our schedules allow. She has had a couple of loggers asking about it and I would like to give her an idea. Assuming it is good size and reasonable quality - what would be fair?
I have all hardwood so I don't keep track of softwoods. With things changing so fast what is the hardwood market looking like? I have been cutting and sawing for personal use so have not looked into the latest pricing. The latest numbers from the NY DEC (winter 21) seem low to me. If you have some info I would like to hear it and also where to find the latest info.
A public way of seeing what people will -actually- pay on the stump in NY is checking bids for DEC jobs in your region. They give an "overall" designation of hdwd/sftwd, their expected minimum bid and eventually the three highest bids (I'd there even were any!!) If you open the PDF it will give volume estimate, species distribution and details on the land parcel. I will try to edit this post from computer later, on phone now. Keep in mind these are folks that assumingly meet all requirements (NYLT, insurance, etc) to harvest timber on state land and this may impact bids.
Quote from: woodman52 on August 17, 2021, 07:19:58 PM
I am in western NY. My neighbor has about 30K ft. of hemlock she would like to sell on the stump. I told her I would try to find out what she should get for it. I am going to take a look at it as soon as our schedules allow. She has had a couple of loggers asking about it and I would like to give her an idea. Assuming it is good size and reasonable quality - what would be fair?
I have all hardwood so I don't keep track of softwoods. With things changing so fast what is the hardwood market looking like? I have been cutting and sawing for personal use so have not looked into the latest pricing. The latest numbers from the NY DEC (winter 21) seem low to me. If you have some info I would like to hear it and also where to find the latest info.
Where in western ny
Local fellow is paying $650 CAD per MBF ($515 USD) for white cedar logs. That's up from $550 CAD ($435 USD) in January 2021 and $500 CAD ($395 USD) in 2019.
Well here is the NYSDEC Timber Sale site. Timber Sales on State Forests - NYS Dept. of Environmental Conservation (https://www.dec.ny.gov/lands/69749.html) I didn't see any recent jobs (quick look) in region 8/9 that would give you helpful info but maybe in the future. Interesting to look at regions so far away from me though, one of those Cattaraugus jobs had a single 12"DBH Cucumber(magnolia) in the sale :)
Quote from: woodman52 on August 17, 2021, 07:19:58 PM
I am in western NY. My neighbor has about 30K ft. of hemlock she would like to sell on the stump. I told her I would try to find out what she should get for it. I am going to take a look at it as soon as our schedules allow. She has had a couple of loggers asking about it and I would like to give her an idea. Assuming it is good size and reasonable quality - what would be fair?
I have all hardwood so I don't keep track of softwoods. With things changing so fast what is the hardwood market looking like? I have been cutting and sawing for personal use so have not looked into the latest pricing. The latest numbers from the NY DEC (winter 21) seem low to me. If you have some info I would like to hear it and also where to find the latest info.
I am cutting and selling my hemlock direct to a local sawmill and they are paying up to $330/1000 delivered.
Local concentration yard is paying $240/1000 delivered.
I am guessing stumpage would be $100 -$150/1000.
We currently are getting .12 per bf here. I'm not sure what the mills are getting, assume it's higher but that is a tough job breaking it down.
12 cents a foot on the stump, the landing, at the mill? For what type of logs?
At the stump, delivery isn't that much but charging .45 cents per mile. At a landing it's a bit higher and not afraid to sell to walk ons.
Most bids here are .20-.35 cents at the stump but those are state contracts where you need to be certified to even touch a tree. They register your chainsaw into a database as well as you tree felling cert. What happen to the days where you didn't need all that crap, most guys don't touch bids but money could be good.. tough choice.
All of my Huskies are tag less, first thing to fall off in the woods because those pop rivets don't hold.
This is for softwood, Hard wood is for firewood mostly but there is a 50 mile limit.
You are felling it for 12cents a foot? Or theyre felling you are hauling?
The price just sounds really low for anything but a landowner selling poor stumpage to me. I could be wrong.
.40 a bf for w pine .28 a bf for hemlock del here to my mill. That's up some. Truckers get .06 to .08 a bf to hall. Off what I pay.
Getting a truck with a pup today w pine.
Have a hard time getting hemlock.
Quote from: mike_belben on September 29, 2021, 10:13:06 AM
You are felling it for 12cents a foot? Or theyre felling you are hauling?
The price just sounds really low for anything but a landowner selling poor stumpage to me. I could be wrong.
Felling and hauling for .12c Maybe I need to rethink this, but I thought that was fair. I use the doyle scale so yesterday I had 11 EWP that were all 36" at the tip almost 11ft, came out to be 1103bf per log. Minus $160 for diesel, $58 for gas and $34 for lube (cable lubes).
This is mostly for local land owners and I mostly work alone. If I had a hand I would double that for sure.
Ahh.. i was thinking you owned the timber. So that is your harvest and haul fee as a contract logger.
Quote from: bannerd on September 30, 2021, 06:54:20 AM
Quote from: mike_belben on September 29, 2021, 10:13:06 AM
You are felling it for 12cents a foot? Or theyre felling you are hauling?
The price just sounds really low for anything but a landowner selling poor stumpage to me. I could be wrong.
Felling and hauling for .12c Maybe I need to rethink this, but I thought that was fair. I use the doyle scale so yesterday I had 11 EWP that were all 36" at the tip almost 11ft, came out to be 1103bf per log. Minus $160 for diesel, $58 for gas and $34 for lube (cable lubes).
This is mostly for local land owners and I mostly work alone. If I had a hand I would double that for sure.
Something about your numbers is not adding up?
Mills generally buy on even lengths(8.10,12,etc plus 4"-6" extra for trim).
A log 10'Lx36"diam=640bd ft so if you had eleven logs like that you would have 11x640=7,040bd ft
which would net you $844.80
All 36" logs would be highly unusual. I was paying $.12 per foot to cut,skid, and load in the late 1990s and that didn't include the hauling.
I think hes got 45 cents a mile haul bill ontop, which puts you back to probably the 1970s for rates.
I dont mean to make this sound harsh but you may want to do a little market research to be certain you arent shooting your own foot off bannerd
Up here where things cost abit more $120/1000 to cut and skid buck up and pile so log truck can pick it up your for sure not making much money . Things just cost to much . I'm cutting abit of white pine right now with my hardwood and pine is paying a average of $650/1000 on landing . They pay the trucking
Still some upward price on Maple lumber but the Hardwood Market Report shows the first signs of peaking and or easing this week for the first time in over a year. Pretty steep ride up to the crest. Hang on for the drop.
thanks for the headsup SB smiley_thumbsup
i just called the tie mill, dollars per thousand:
$600 WO switchtie
$550 RO switchtie
$550 WO tie
$500 RO tie
$400 SM/hickory/black gum tie
$850 #1 WO sawlog
Just by watching what is going on with lumber prices I'm sure thinking there is going to be alot of newer logging equipment for sale in not to much time . Only thing here is the mills are out of logs so that will help in the short term . The one mill had to go back to 1 shift cause cannot get enough timber
Quote from: ehp on October 05, 2021, 09:56:30 AM
Just by watching what is going on with lumber prices I'm sure thinking there is going to be alot of newer logging equipment for sale in not to much time . Only thing here is the mills are out of logs so that will help in the short term . The one mill had to go back to 1 shift cause cannot get enough timber
That's what our buyers are saying- no logs.
Trucking is the issue in the Southern Piedmont of Virginia. We can get the wood to the deck (when employees show up), but can't get it to the mill. We have trucks parked due to lack of drivers, and a handful of trucks parked waiting on parts. :-\
Wud
We got lots of trucks here but loggers are getting harder to find as we are all getting older here. I'm guessing but I would think in my area the average age is 50 plus as hardly zero younger guys under 30 are doing it . Just means we got to work longer hours per week to try and get enough out .
Log price news is :
- NRO veneer up to $1800 for smaller 14-20", black oak not allowed.
- BO veneer about $1700 for rift is as high as I've seen it (export market)
- Small WO veneer 14"-19", 3 sided, is averaging $3400 according to 2 buyers.
- YP peelers are $100/ton (8" min top-24" max dimension) and no more than 10 cut off branches/9' section, mill location sucks and it drops to $80 something at concentration yards closer to me.
- Pulp is going crazy, $85 a ton in gulf coast of Alabama and $90 delivered to some mills in WV. Again location sucks and you have to do serious volume to get that pricing- 2500 tons/week and negotiate. For us small guys the concentration yards would pay us $44/ton but much less shipping. Huge delta increase for producers able to negotiate higher pricing due to volume. Sending it to that mill would be 1/trip/truck sort of deal
- Cherry veneer has done ok from what little we've seen
- Walnut is still smoking. Large table top market is still hot so if you have family/friends/clients with that large old walnut field tree that is 60" and has had deer stands this is the time to lay it down and sell. $8-14 metal ok. We're selling 2 loads of that stuff this winter.
No trucks...:(
The one hardwood mill here is down to a couple days in yard . It's the lowest any one has ever seen . I have had other mills here looking and throwing around crazy numbers and 1 even came back twice more yesterday but I'm staying where I feel good and they are paying I feel me very well . I'm not burning any bridges when the crop hits the fan which it is going to
Almost all the loggers I know just don't like the current admin so I feel they are pessimistic and that makes me optimistic. The order books are just through the roof so :-\. I think what happens with the evergrande debt situation in China is worth watching. Most of the debt is held by Chinese entities and only a few billion here. The question is can China force a restructuring so as not to burst the real estate bubble. The Chinese apartment size has tripled from 1990 to 2020 so that today the average new apartment in a Chinese city is actually much nicer than one in Tokyo or London for example. The costs are just as much as London though, if not higher sometimes.
The point there being that there is a huge amount of borrowed wealth tied up in real estate. If China can pull off a restructuring without popping the bubble the base floor price for export hardwoods will stay elevated.
The USA side of things is harder to figure out, we have lots of debt and huge savings at the same time. I suspect that the spring could see a flood of housing sales as people rush to beat increasing interest rates designed to reduce inflation and money supply. Not sure what happens in 2-3 years but i am sort of counting on strong demand for 2 more. It started going crazy in August/Sept 2020. 4 years is a good cycle. So for me I'm looking to grow til winter 2023/24. Then we'll take some temperatures. Of course any ol thing could happen and crash the markets. China could try to invade Taiwan, etc. None of this is advice just my personal ramblings.
For now I found 2 more price increases today and a major investment in export markets based in VA. Took all day to figure out who is behind it. Barge's favorite folks.
Our walnut table top maker immediately jumped when I invited him to look at some big uglies. He gets excited at 40" or larger and some of them are a bit small. There are 3 really decent butt logs that should have his attention so we'll push the rest to finish a load. I need to post pictures in what we're cutting, might help someone out.
Pulp prices have been falling since July, but very slowly. Panel prices have been steady since mid August, no big shift up or down. Lumber prices have been falling since late October after a slight uptick in September - mid October, which happens in hurricane season any year. Right now 2 x 4's $800/th., on the high side for knotty wood with live edge corners. Rare to get square edge 2 x 4's. :D Local pricing on 2 x 6" x 16's fell $6 or $7 bucks a piece though in the last week, still $5 higher than 2019.
As to hemlock, that's like selling tamarack up here, not much money in it. So they stand in clear cuts to fall down in the fall winds. One mill wanted 40 acres of fir thinned, but you had to climb over cross piled tamarack. See you later, have a nice life. :D
Surprised they don't grab the tamarack for fence posts
That market is white cedar. A cedar post will stand for over 40 years, tamarack will rot in 10.
Then they should be able to sell 4x more tamarack. ;D
Quote from: SwampDonkey on November 11, 2021, 06:26:59 AM
That market is white cedar. A cedar post will stand for over 40 years, tamarack will rot in 10.
S.D., Is all of your w. cedar northern white cedar? Asked another way, does any Atlantic w. c. grow in N.B. ?
All northern white. We call it eastern white cedar up here.
Here's some 3 foot diameter stuff, what we call upland white cedar.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11009/SD_white-cedar3.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1339440541)
Swamp white cedar, pretty much 90%+ white cedar in those stands. Lots of big leaners. :D Biggest there in photo is 24 inches @ dbh. For cedar posts I prefer the 140-160 year old ones in a swamp, about 4 to 6" diameter, tight rings, more rot resistant.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11009/SD_BigTrees-Ce.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1192063128)
Quote from: mike_belben on November 11, 2021, 07:42:39 AM
Then they should be able to sell 4x more tamarack. ;D
Go for it, Mike. :D You gotta crack the code of 'set in their ways'. ;D
Re "upland white-cedar": Some researchers in Wisconsin once hypothesized that upland white-cedar was a separate subspecies from that growing in swamps. Subsequent work revealed this not to be the case. All same tree genetically.
Better than most at tolerating a saturated soil, but best growth in more upland position.
Quote from: SwampDonkey on November 11, 2021, 08:39:56 AM
Quote from: mike_belben on November 11, 2021, 07:42:39 AM
Then they should be able to sell 4x more tamarack. ;D
Go for it, Mike. :D You gotta crack the code of 'set in their ways'. ;D
Thats like trying to get $70 for a face cord in TN. It cant be done! :D
S.D., thanks for reply. It is almost hard to believe those clumps of w.c. fence posts are the same species as those nice straight cedars growing up the bank. Up near the boarder I would see at a cedar mill both dark brown and light gray bark and that apparently means nothing. One time I had erc, nwc, awc and dawn redwood logs at my place all at the same time. Down here the northern [white cedar] is rare unless planted. there are not many who know these eastern cedars.
Quote from: moodnacreek on November 11, 2021, 12:44:06 PMUp near the boarder I would see at a cedar mill both dark brown and light gray bark and that apparently means nothing.
We see variation up here in yellow birch to, some is more silver colored than golden yellow. A lot to do with soil. I know sugar maple bark looks different off glacial sandy soil than around here on farm ground.
I've seen the water table rise after a cedar swamp is cut, about all you get is a crop of cat tails, sedge and willows/alders after. ::)
Quote from: SwampDonkey on November 11, 2021, 01:00:39 PM
Quote from: moodnacreek on November 11, 2021, 12:44:06 PMUp near the boarder I would see at a cedar mill both dark brown and light gray bark and that apparently means nothing.
We see variation up here in yellow birch to, some is more silver colored than golden yellow. A lot to do with soil. I know sugar maple bark looks different off glacial sandy soil than around here on farm ground.
Sugar maple in the north country sure is different [bark]. I always thought bark patterns where about age and growth rate of tree but apparently there is more to it. Identifying logs by bark alone [is what I do] but sometimes I have to bend over and look at the end grain or worse take a slab off.
I can only tell with white oaks at this point but the bark sure does tell the health story on a sick tree.
Yes, Mike that is true. Even balsam fir, when I see those pitch bubbles dry up in the bark it is too late for a log and many times it has been suppressed from over topping trees, it is also old. When I'm cleaning up the junk trees on the woodlot, the dry bark ones are the first to go, usually rotten inside or dark brown at least. But the soil is about tree health as well, as in drought stress, nutrient regime, rooting depth....all part of the big picture. ;) Corn on sand versus nice loam farm ground is quite pathetic. :D
I have a blow down area on some wet ground, we call imperfect drainage. Lots of open sky, but the fir regen is sparce and grow extremely slow. Looks dark green and not necrotic, but doesn't seem to like it much. All kinds of seed trees around it on better drained ground, producing millions of seeds. What I get on the wet area is mostly aspen, red maple and ash and not thick. I would really like to have cedar there, I'm sure that was the climax forest in there. But there was a fire over 100 years ago and it came back to aspen that grew huge.
Good points SD.
I am being slowly convinced by the testimony of failure to success ag stories that fungal to bacterial ratio holds the answers. This pic wil help me keep it shorter. Look at the growing fungal dominance that leads to a forest, this image does not show the dramatically thickening top soil humus that accompanies fungal life. Tillage destroys fungus, humus and topsoil. and explodes bacterial growth.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1636726297718.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1636727206)
Other day i read that beech is a climax species. Mudfarmer is covered in takeover beech. Its been what, 100yrs since upstate NY was tilled? TN plateau has similar soil deposits as the PA/NY appalachians but widespread disturbance is more recent as we were a later settlement and still ag/forestry dominant. Our frequent harvests leaves a shorter more open canopy and puts more sun on the dirt, drying it out and stunting fungi. Not good for beech.
Our beeches are none to runty in flatter harvestable ground except in the few undisturbed forests ive seen. Around me accessible land has been harvested atleast once since the white man arrived. Beech grow large and dominant only in the deepest creek bottoms that were passed over and stayed shady, about 200ft elevation lower than the tops. These areas stay moist and collect washed down sediments, providing good fungal environment. A year round creek will have the biggest beech in the 500 acres or so im most familiar with. Im looking around now and there is a 100ft buffer between beech and the sunlight from a field edge. The sunlight cant hit the dirt a beech is on directly. Filtered overhead light only.
So the shoe seems to fit with fungal root relationships.
Regarding dead crop ground, this one spells it out well. National average soybean yield is at 47 bushel/acre. This is the microbial analysis of a 40 year soybean only tillage.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1636726260172.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1636727209)
Down to 14 bushel/acre. You either cater to your free fungi or you buy and inject your fertility. Dave Brandt says do you wanna sign your name on the back of the check or the front?
Quote from: nativewolf on November 10, 2021, 07:12:41 AM
No trucks...:(
Having the same issue in southern VA. Well, no drivers. There are plenty of trucks around...for sale. I think I have a few options here, but hauling is definitely the bottleneck here. Fortunately, one local logger (3 miles away) offered to leave an empty trailer on the landing, along with a knuckleboom he isn't currently using. Can't say no to that.
Be sure to take care of that fellow. Kind offer.
Pics of beech bottoms.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1112211308a.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1636790375)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1112211320.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1636790384)
Feet in the creek sand. They can get a good ways up the shady side of hills if theres lots of water nearby.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1112211347.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1636790328)
This swamp was skidder harvested probably in the mid 60s to 70s. It has a lot of whiskey barrels in it too. They only grow like this in hollar bottoms.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1112211308.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1636790345)
It's well known that fungi, especially mycorrhizae act as an extension of tree roots. That means more water and nutrient uptake and the fungus gets some sugar as a reward. Any good forest soils book was talking of this decades ago. It's mostly work the German's have done to understand what the relationship is. I'm sure others would like credit. :D
Our beech up here are all pretty much dying or dead from beech scale disease. I cruised a woodlot north of here back 30 years ago, with 30" smooth beech trees in there. The further north of here the better the beech, colder winters. That was a 50 acre block, that became more potato ground. It was quite evident that the landowner used the volume estimates, a wood price sheet from the forest marketing board and went looking for the highest bidder for his wood. :D
The back yard beech here has been steadily declining over the last few years and has a lot of seed every other year. A year ago the central leader of the main stem died. Was terrible dry here for 5 years, last summer we started to get some normalcy here.
I remember a fellow from New York was giving a lecture and field trip on managing beech. He said a lot down his way where suckered from parent tree roots. I dug up 6 (more or less, exact numbers fade in 30 years ;)) beech in the understory and showed they were seed born. :D There is still value in those courses, but just proves there is no one size fits all. Always enjoy those out door courses. ;)
Was that east or west germany? Im reading a 1961 soviet state govt soil microbiology book and the author credits soviet scientists a generation before him as being microbiology pioneers so maybe 1930s?
American agriculture is pretty slow to change out of its ww2 ways. If its breaking down, subsidize it.
Ive not seen any beech nuts this year.. Are they a sporadic mast crop? I know very little about beech.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11009/beechnuts-2019.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1567283431)
If you have blue jays, they'll have them harvested as fast as you can blink. :D
https://youtu.be/um53ncwxqm8 (https://youtu.be/um53ncwxqm8)
I do. Cardinals and blue jays get winter wheat seed out of the garden every morning lately. I enjoy it.
But i digress as always. Whats that got to do with the price of logs in china? ;D
Well, if they are looking for beech logs, they better look elsewhere. It does remind me of one time, someone in NS looking for perfect smooth beech. I wished him luck, and said if there are some they would likely be few and far between a mess of diseased ones. ;D I suspected these were for export, but was a long time ago now, so memory of it fades. :D
Digress? Us? You jest😂
There's a place at somerset that buys beech for toothpicks. Last I heard, the logs had to be nearly veener quailty, 14" and up, they were paying .80-1.00 a year ago. I heard that from the log buyer, but i've never sold any logs to them. About 80 miles east of where I'm at.
I used to sell real good beech for rotary veneer. That was a good deal and it was around for awhile but about a year or two ago they lost that order. Back to the pallet mill they go!! 👎
Somebody is still peeling beech for veneer, they still sell it. I should look into that myself.
Quote from: bannerd on September 29, 2021, 09:08:09 AM
" ... but those are state contracts where you need to be certified to even touch a tree. They register your chainsaw into a database as well as you tree felling cert. What happen to the days where you didn't need all that crap, most guys don't touch bids but money could be good.. tough choice."
We've had this kind of silliness here for some time. About fifteen years ago the County wanted some of their spruce/pine plantations thinned and I had looked into it. They wanted skidders steam-cleaned prior to entry, more certifications than I ever knew existed, and a ridiculous amount of administrative reporting.
So I quickly stroked that off my list. Judging by the looks of their plantations, so did every other logger.
hardwood pallet logs in northern middle TN are paying $60/ton and due to drop next week. which is surprising given its deer season. we have had a good fall weather wise.
I just checked some scribble notes. I guess it was 2018. i hauled 1 load of pulp that paid $19/ton and said to heck with that. At the time pallet was way more stringent and paid less ao i never went to the pallet mill. Just called the one i sold pulp to and theyre up to $30/ton and like i said pallet mill is at $60. I bet pallet was like $12/ton back then so look at the change.. Wow. West rock, rocktenn, and bowater were between $27-32/t back then based on distance but i couldnt ebter their yard with a 2 ton and under 1million truck policy.
The calc says red oak is 5.7T per cord so thats about $340 a cord. Three 16inch face cords makes a true cord and brings $150 around here after you break your butt splitting it.
I guess deer season can wait.
Quote from: nativewolf on November 14, 2021, 08:06:20 AM
Somebody is still peeling beech for veneer, they still sell it. I should look into that myself.
No producers in the US or Canada that I'm aware of - at least significant volumes. European beech (may be referred to as steamed beech) is still a thing in veneer, but - obviously - comes from Europe. I have some drawer sides made from European beech plywood.
Can someone check my math on this please? $60/ton will come out around $500/mbf using doyle scale on red oak.. No?
Quote from: mike_belben on November 15, 2021, 01:14:32 PM
... Three 16inch face cords makes a true cord and brings $150 around here after you break your butt splitting it.
I guess deer season can wait.
$85 CDN ($67 USD) per face cord in these parts. Like my brother says, "You're either getting paid for your wood, or you're being paid for your labour, but you're bloody well not being paid for both."
So I figure heck, I'm slowly going broke every day I work in the bush, so I may as well go deer hunting.and slow down the process. :)
Quote from: mike_belben on November 15, 2021, 01:14:32 PM
The calc says red oak is 5.7T per cord so thats about $340 a cord. Three 16inch face cords makes a true cord and brings $150 around here after you break your butt splitting it.
Check that Mike, should be around 2.8 ton per cord. I've bought a few firewood logs on tonnage in the past. Local standard cord of hard maple here is 2.5 green metric tonne for 128 cu feet of wood and air spaces (Forest Products Marketing Board). 2.5 GMT = 2.74 green ton, oak is a little heavier when green.
youre right... phew, glad you caught me swampdonkey. the toolbox said a cord is 5700 lbs and in my rush i glanced at it and punched in 5.7T, forgetting to divide it in half.
ive been meaning to open up a few segments.. waffling on it in reluctance really, and went out and did it. for a few minutes it hurt losing all those trees i thinned around, but every one that came down showed it was poor, slow growing, stained or doaty, etc. every okayish looking tree i had previously saved has been released yet showed no signs of extra growth in the recent rings. when the tops hit the ground they were all rougher than i thought. i made up my mind that no matter what the price, i could have an apple orchard someday or a bunch of dying oaks forever, and im glad i did it. its really a good thing i got the price wrong because that was the push the helped me say today is the day, just do it. with pulp and pallet at a peak i can feel like a finally nailed the timing on something in my life. 4 acres will grow a lot more tomatoes than timbers, and a lot faster to boot.
$170 a cord and no labor is absolutely perfect to me!
Averages obviously vary; but a good rule of thumb on upland oak/hickory type forest is 200'/acre/year(Doyle) is an average growth rate. I have some north slope drains heavy to poplar and red oak doing 600-800' but that is an exceptional site index and also the reason excellent timber sites are often farmed. It just doesn't pay as much to grow hardwood timber as other crops on sites where you have options.
diameter limit cuts from 1962 until subdivision in 95 converted all these parcels to the slowest growers that never got into the cut class. at a glance it took 20 years to gain 1.5" diameter on what i cut today.
a few weeks ago i discovered a satelite GPS app from Uc davis that puts the usda soil survey overlay on your parcel and it turns out i have 1.5 or maybe 2 acres of "all areas prime farmland" on this parcel, and about the same on the other. this class makes up a very small portion of my region overall. there are only specs of it on the high ground, as the slopes seems to wash it off.
counting my blessings.
It can also be a little misleading to do ring counts on what amounts to a left behind mid-story. Even the best of that won't respond or grow at the rate of trees that were never suppressed. My degree is from the school of hard knocks and actually cutting 10's of thousands of trees and observing. Knowing what is inside the tree before it is cut is a valuable skillset.
im getting better at it little by little but have a long way to go.
Some species do respond well to a release, and can be age dependent as well. 50 year old suppressed stunted balsam fir is junk even if it picked up growth in full sun, and it will. The damage is already well underway in the stem. Red spruce on the other hand, after about 3 years will grow like the dickens and be chalk white. (not saying they all are chalk white). But it has a very long life span, over 400 years, where as fir is pretty much dead in 90, further south of here, 50 if you're lucky. You can find old 'overstory removal' jobs around here where the fir is 50 years old underneath and 10 feet tall and the aspen is 30 years old and 70 feet tall. :D
Back in 2007, I did a volume inventory in my plantation, used fixed area plots. It averaged 2.5 cord/acre, the stand was 10 years old. Numbers are in my 'Tending your piece of earth' thread. That included wild trees and it had been thinned 2 years before. I am cutting 16 cord per acre, removed not total volume, now 13 years after in a second thinning. That is 1.23 cord/acre/year. Difficult for me to say board footage, too me that assumes every bf produced is lumber. I've never seen that play out. :D You can not predict the unseen all that well, never could. (ie under the bark and up the stem inside). You can increase your chances by looking at signs on the tree stem, but never a sure thing. :D But there is 2 cords in 1000 bf as a rule of thumb, so at the stated 1.23 cord/acre/year, I have 615 bf/year. Which is actually much higher than that since that figure is based on volume extracted, not total. But don't expect that in real lumber. :D There will be a lot of pulpwood. Pulpwood is $$ though, just the same. So isn't firewood, as in saving me $2200/year. :D You can get a lot of wood in a mixed stand of very shade tolerant species and some shade intolerance species that are ahead of them. ;)
These volumes are from thinning, thinning, thinning your ground. If not, expect 0.4 to 0.7 cord/acre/year in data I've collected over the years. Most land owners do not thin ground up here more than once. After age 12-15 years it's never touched until the next clear cut.
Quote from: SwampDonkey on November 16, 2021, 04:07:24 AM
Some species do respond well to a release, and can be age dependent as well. 50 year old suppressed stunted balsam fir is junk even if it picked up growth in full sun, and it will. The damage is already well underway in the stem. Red spruce on the other hand, after about 3 years will grow like the dickens and be chalk white. (not saying they all are chalk white). But it has a very long life span, over 400 years, where as fir is pretty much dead in 90, further south of here, 50 if you're lucky. You can find old 'overstory removal' jobs around here where the fir is 50 years old underneath and 10 feet tall and the aspen is 30 years old and 70 feet tall. :D
Back in 2007, I did a volume inventory in my plantation, used fixed area plots. It averaged 2.5 cord/acre, the stand was 10 years old. Numbers are in my 'Tending your piece of earth' thread. That included wild trees and it had been thinned 2 years before. I am cutting 16 cord per acre, removed not total volume, now 13 years after in a second thinning. That is 1.23 cord/acre/year. Difficult for me to say board footage, too me that assumes every bf produced is lumber. I've never seen that play out. :D You can not predict the unseen all that well, never could. (ie under the bark and up the stem inside). You can increase your chances by looking at signs on the tree stem, but never a sure thing. :D But there is 2 cords in 1000 bf as a rule of thumb, so at the stated 1.23 cord/acre/year, I have 615 bf/year. Which is actually much higher than that since that figure is based on volume extracted, not total. But don't expect that in real lumber. :D There will be a lot of pulpwood. Pulpwood is $$ though, just the same. So isn't firewood, as in saving me $2200/year. :D You can get a lot of wood in a mixed stand of very shade tolerant species and some shade intolerance species that are ahead of them. ;)
These volumes are from thinning, thinning, thinning your ground. If not, expect 0.4 to 0.7 cord/acre/year in data I've collected over the years. Most land owners do not thin ground up here more than once. After age 12-15 years it's never touched until the next clear cut.
Converting cords of firewood harvested including tops and limbs is only indicative of the amount of firewood grown. 10"dbh crooked maple or hollow beech contain "0" bd/ft of sawlogs (especially on Doyles rule) but yield a great deal of firewood that would only be realized by a homeowner cutting their own fuel or a whole tree chipper selling biomass.
I never claimed x-ray vision; but I will say they are people who can look at a log and tell you exactly what area it was cut from by the color and texture of the wood. There are also people who can walk through a tract and tell you what it will cut per acre in both dollars and volume and never needing to stop and tally at tree. They are related to the guys who sit in a sale barn and can tell you how much a steer weighs before it crosses the scale. Then of course there are others who never learn.
Quote from: stavebuyer on November 15, 2021, 06:41:11 PM
Averages obviously vary; but a good rule of thumb on upland oak/hickory type forest is 200'/acre/year(Doyle) is an average growth rate. I have some north slope drains heavy to poplar and red oak doing 600-800' but that is an exceptional site index and also the reason excellent timber sites are often farmed. It just doesn't pay as much to grow hardwood timber as other crops on sites where you have options.
im just thinking about this annual growth concept more today. 200bd ft doyle per acre per year with rough logs in a normal market is about $300/mbf or 30 cents a bd ft in tie logs. thats $60 a YEAR for keeping an acre in crappy woods, then half goes to the logger and another chunk to the IRS. if it were managed for several generations by culling firewood to produce either successive or climax harvest of veneer, stave and prime sawlog grades, i bet one could average $1-$2 a bd ft depending on site quality. in a poor site that might mean $200 per year or on a great site that might mean $1200 per year per acre. respectively using figures of 200ft annual growth per year times $1bd/ft, and 600ft growth x $2/bd/ft. here pasture leases are about $50/acre and crop land brings $100-ish, for comparison. a prime forest can potentially out earn crop leasing if managed right for the long haul. out here this holds particularly true of bottoms and bluffs that would never be leased for either. they hold the finest timber.
i guess as always i am thinking outloud in hopes it helps someone passing through realize that by harvesting your best trees in a diameter limit or high grade thinning you are reducing the annual equity growth potential of land. that is management by logger. by harvesting firewood from around beautiful trees in a management by farmer/owner format, a little bit at a time, you are not only increasing the equity growth rate in terms of fiber but also in terms of market value from aesthetics. i would like to think this would show up in the bottom line of an appraisal in terms of equity lending in the event of an emergency, something that can be accessed without selling out.
i have saved my largest scarlet oaks knowing they will be doaty and shaky, because they have huge royal crowns, they provide beautiful thick blocks of shade that move across a field all day for livestock relief, and in the fall they are the kind of magnificent deep red that you want to see off the front porch when the neighbors woods looks like a brown ball of crap. value has a lot of factors to consider. white oaks bring good money, turn brown and wreck the fall foliage and look ugly when theyre bare so i am telling a lot of them goodbye.
part of me said but but but.. youll need logs to saw for the frame of your house. i realized my stand is entirely trash and trash is paying excellent right now. sell mine to get something for it now, and when the market surely crashes and i have a good bandmill built, i will just go buy cheap stumpage to build the house out of, when someone desperate is begging for a check. buy low sell high right?
so many decisions to navigate takes all the fun out of adulting.
Quote from: stavebuyer on November 16, 2021, 06:35:52 AMConverting cords of firewood harvested including tops and limbs is only indicative of the amount of firewood grown. 10"dbh crooked maple or hollow beech contain "0" bd/ft of sawlogs (especially on Doyles rule) but yield a great deal of firewood that would only be realized by a homeowner cutting their own fuel or a whole tree chipper selling biomass.
Never claimed anything different than total volume. We take wood down to 1-1/2" diameter for tree length up here. So weather firewood or pulp it all has value. Just like the pulp mill, rotten firewood isn't worth anything and doesn't count in the volume tally. But to tell me how many board feet standing of saw log quality before a saw is in it is nothing but a guess, a well educated guess maybe, based on past experience. A proper cruise is not a guess, it is an estimate based on sampling and a model (volume table, equation). A sloppy cruise can be more of a guess. Moving the prism around the plot for instance instead of over a point, is pretty shotty work. And I've seen some jilpokes do it. Trust me I've seen lot of 'claims' over the years. Some are good guessers for sure and some are very bad ones. I often get some feedback from loggers on what they thought was there and what they cut, some way surprised there was way more. Others disappointed and were sure there was more. :D
Not a single mill here buys sawlog or veneer volume based on standing trees, not one. Not off crown land, not off woodlots. If wood is not cut and bucked for grade on a yard where they inspect and scale it, good luck selling it. Either your yard or their yard. We've had both American and Canadian buyers here. I've seen third parties pick up wood, what someone thought was veneer, and it got turned down, the wood went to firewood or pulp. Mostly firewood in the trucker's yard because most people aren't going to go pick up 2 or maybe 6 firewood logs.
We live in two different worlds for sure. ;)
how does something go from i think its veneer to its firewood? that sounds like a pretty clueless error.
Not really, if it's borderline spec. for veneer and it turns out to be saw grade. It's sitting in a trucker's yard who hauls veneer logs. No one is going to move a puckle of wood worth, say $350/th $500 at most. No self loader going to bring you your 2 logs back. Now, are you going to bring your farm tractor and straight truck to collect them? If so, you can certainly have them. You have 20 miles to come get them. ;) They (owner of the wood) wouldn't even get their own wood from the marketing board yard when the opportunity presented itself. They'd (marketing board) have firewood days after it sat their long enough to spoil. We have 3 hardwood sawmills and one veneer mill in a 30 mile radius.
200 bd/ft acre growth at $.30 per ft stumpage is indeed $60 per acre per year and that includes the good/bad/ugly. Better timber with a veneer component will bring more. A north slope with a nice drain that is too rough to farm is about an ideal site. A south bluff with post oak, scarlet oak, and blackjack oak is better to let someone else pay the tax bill.
If you manage the timber yourself it certainly helps to maximize the potential. The main drawbacks is while you rent pasture or sell livestock every year the timber is only going to pay every couple of decades. It is also very difficult or impractical to effectively market specialty logs on a small scale. The veneer buyer won't come for a half dozen trees unless he needs them to finish out a load he bought down the road; so even if you up the quality it may not help the sales average.
Buying veneer standing is a fairly common practice in the US and actually has been demonstrated to have better yield results than cut logs for a number of reasons. I have bought it both as a salaried employee and now as contract supplier who ships logs on a cost plus basis. Every log tagged and branded; each individual slice of veneer bar coded and tracked back to the buyer/date/supplier and location. Nowhere to hide if your wrong. A few prosper and the rest change hats about once a year.
Quote from: stavebuyer on November 16, 2021, 04:53:58 PM
Buying veneer standing is a fairly common practice in the US and actually has been demonstrated to have better yield results than cut logs for a number of reasons.
One being scale system, Doyle versus International for instance. For us up here Doyle always favours the buyer because our average size is smaller. So we use the New Brunswick log rule or Bangor rule depending on the buyer, which has been found to be much more fair in our situation.
All veneer we have sold has been scaled, stamped and bar coded and we go even further, all wood moved by truck of any kind requires a transportation certificate for that load of wood (location, property ID#, owner), which can be audited at any time. Even firewood on a pick up truck can be stopped by DNR to confirm it's source. At year end the book of certificates are forwarded to the local marketing boards and then Dept of Natural Resources. This also helps forecast wood supply. This has been the case for more than 20 years. We have had a big theft problem of wood over the years, we had to find ways to impede that.
Just the way it is up this way.
Quote from: SwampDonkey on November 16, 2021, 10:32:01 AM
Quote from: stavebuyer on November 16, 2021, 06:35:52 AMConverting cords of firewood harvested including tops and limbs is only indicative of the amount of firewood grown. 10"dbh crooked maple or hollow beech contain "0" bd/ft of sawlogs (especially on Doyles rule) but yield a great deal of firewood that would only be realized by a homeowner cutting their own fuel or a whole tree chipper selling biomass.
Never claimed anything different than total volume. We take wood down to 1-1/2" diameter for tree length up here. So weather firewood or pulp it all has value. Just like the pulp mill, rotten firewood isn't worth anything and doesn't count in the volume tally. But to tell me how many board feet standing of saw log quality before a saw is in it is nothing but a guess, a well educated guess maybe, based on past experience. A proper cruise is not a guess, it is an estimate based on sampling and a model (volume table, equation). A sloppy cruise can be more of a guess. Moving the prism around the plot for instance instead of over a point, is pretty shotty work. And I've seen some jilpokes do it. Trust me I've seen lot of 'claims' over the years. Some are good guessers for sure and some are very bad ones. I often get some feedback from loggers on what they thought was there and what they cut, some way surprised there was way more. Others disappointed and were sure there was more. :D
Not a single mill here buys sawlog or veneer volume based on standing trees, not one. Not off crown land, not off woodlots. If wood is not cut and bucked for grade on a yard where they inspect and scale it, good luck selling it. Either your yard or their yard. We've had both American and Canadian buyers here. I've seen third parties pick up wood, what someone thought was veneer, and it got turned down, the wood went to firewood or pulp. Mostly firewood in the trucker's yard because most people aren't going to go pick up 2 or maybe 6 firewood logs.
We live in two different worlds for sure. ;)
I often wonder if we have anyone left who can actually buck sawlogs.
On crown land operations, hardwood sawlogs up here are usually run on a slasher. Trees cut and hauled tree length to a landing, buck off the but log and toss the top in the pulpwood pile. For veneer logs they are hand cut. I see hardwood on the road all week, most of it is pulpwood, but I see a few veneer logs, every stick will have some sort of mark on it. More than veneer are sawlog trucks and every stick on them loads have blue paint on the ends, just a mark. In the upper right log over the driver side will have a mark indicating wood off crown land.
The fine for steeling crown wood, with the intent of commercial gain is a min $10,000. I googled the news reports and saw one guy recently got a $12,000 fine for a load of wood and another guy got $8000 for eight pine logs and found out he had sold another 6 already to a mill.
I chased down a log buyer passing by the pallet mill yesterday, poplar is his thing and has mills on the TN/KY border.
His prime grade requires 16'6" by bare min 18inch DIB small end and perfect, 4SC. $1100/mbf doyle.
Its the highest price ive heard for poplar by someone with their name on the front of the check.
Sounds like good money. Got any to them specs? No supply, no money. ;D
Maybe 1. A passover sitting in a wet spot on a cutover.. Maybe biggest tree on the property.
Farmer a few lots over has many like this, im gonna send him a pic of my notes when the sun comes up.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/0914211436.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1631671223)
W Pine just jump to $400 a 1000
hemlock is at 280
Quote from: mike_belben on December 01, 2021, 05:13:13 AM
I chased down a log buyer passing by the pallet mill yesterday, poplar is his thing and has mills on the TN/KY border.
His prime grade requires 16'6" by bare min 18inch DIB small end and perfect, 4SC. $1100/mbf doyle.
Its the highest price ive heard for poplar by someone with their name on the front of the check.
That's a honest prices right there Mike. Stuffing containers on the landing would not do any better. With the larger diameter YP logs the doyle won't hit pricing too much.
YP Veneer mills in midwest are at $1800-2000 for veneer but that's a hard spec to meet as it needs to be very white and no pin knots. One or the other is usually the case.
Overseas brokers are offering $1200 / mbf doyle for banded YP 3 side and up but you have to stuff and fumigate. There is quite a bit of $ on that end of it.
Was offered $1400 for 3 sided red oak and more on large rift by the same broker. $1800 on the walnut limbs.
I'd take that on the small crappy walnut but I'm not willing to stuff containers just yet. No hombres
3SC white oak stave top grade is at $2400/mbf doyle. Thats a min 10'6 with 18" dib and an inch of sap max.
The low end is at $900 for 8'6 x 12" dib.
Same here Mike. We had a lot of rain and then 6" of snow that has stuck around for a week or so and kept the ground from freezing. Whole lot of mud can't do anything without making an awful mess right now. Rain and above freezing today, hoping it gets the snow gone and then looks like it will freeze up some this week. That would be good there is some maple out back that I could maybe do alright on and it is all culls and some nice ones the tops were damaged badly this fall when hit by windthrow trees coming off the ridge tops. Hoping we can both get our stuff together while the time is right buddy!
Hey the part I was responding to is gone! :D 8) :new_year:
Stuff that is no good for selling or mills is always good for the fireplace. What you can and do with it always depends on local buyers, a person just has to keep that kinda stuff in mind ;)
You guys in NY going to get any of this below 10F weather coming this way? Shouldn't take long to stiffen up the trails at night after the initial break in to expose some dirt. ;D
Although, not as effective on cedar ground sometimes, too much water in the ground fed by warm springs with slow lateral flow and never freezes even at -30F. :D
SD, that's sounding like the Spring river here in northeastern AR and southeast MO, it originates in MO but flows almost entirely in AR. No matter what time of year it's out of the ground at 50ish degrees and doesn't change much in temperature for quite some distance. I've floated it 2x with my BIL but it doesn't hold any appeal to me personally. Don't get me wrong because it was fun, but he paid my way up/back and food/lodging but I only had "fun" on 2 spots on the place.
I'm loving these poplar prices right now.... I've been cutting mostly redoak and hickory this year and then cut about 18,000 ft of walnut.. but this poplar takes the cake. Just cut 5 poplar trees this week in what I cut, 3725 ft in them, averaged .86 tree run. Just wish I had a boundary that I could really cut on. Right now fighting wet ground on 3 different bunches that I have traded for. If I could cut 20 or 30k a week, I might be able to buy momma a new pair of shoes! lol
Quote from: Hogdaddy on December 03, 2021, 11:56:45 PM
I'm loving these poplar prices right now.... I've been cutting mostly redoak and hickory this year and then cut about 18,000 ft of walnut.. but this poplar takes the cake. Just cut 5 poplar trees this week in what I cut, 3725 ft in them, averaged .86 tree run. Just wish I had a boundary that I could really cut on. Right now fighting wet ground on 3 different bunches that I have traded for. If I could cut 20 or 30k a week, I might be able to buy momma a new pair of shoes! lol
Wow, that's great. So I have to ask..re the YP. Is that all going to a local mill?
The little spring that seeps into the ditch, and used to feed a spring house on the Burtt farm, never freezes even at -30F. The spot in the ditch where it runs to is bare all winter even after the snow plow shoves 12" of snow over it. :) No idea why my cousin removed that spring house, which is on his tree farm now, would come in handy working in summer and getting a cold drink. Wasn't thinking. Dad had a couple springs out back on the farm where we used to draw water from when rock picking. My cousin also had a spring house beside his place he removed after he dug a well. I still would have kept the old spring house. Some people have different notions about progress. ;)
Quote from: SwampDonkey on December 04, 2021, 07:12:59 AM
The little spring that seeps into the ditch, and used to feed a spring house on the Burtt farm, never freezes even at -30F. The spot in the ditch where it runs to is bare all winter even after the snow plow shoves 12" of snow over it. :) No idea why my cousin removed that spring house, which is on his tree farm now, would come in handy working in summer and getting a cold drink. Wasn't thinking. Dad had a couple springs out back on the farm where we used to draw water from when rock picking. My cousin also had a spring house beside his place he removed after he dug a well. I still would have kept the old spring house. Some people have different notions about progress. ;)
Filling in old wells, removing spring houses or boxes, sunken barrels, what ever, that's what you do. There is absolutely no thought of using anything that is not piped in. Water a garden? Get a cold drink? Put out a small fire before it spreads? Nope, take a picture of it and wait for the fire co. There is an old saying everybody knows, [?]; 'you don't miss the water til the well runs dry'
So far here prices across the board are up and thats on all grades which is nice as we all cannot cut high grade like NW .
Quote from: ehp on December 04, 2021, 08:46:55 AM
So far here prices across the board are up and thats on all grades which is nice as we all cannot cut high grade like NW .
It is nice, but you know the guy with $8 HM is not doing so bad. $3 here not that I have any.
Quote from: moodnacreek on December 04, 2021, 08:26:18 AMThere is an old saying everybody knows, [?]; 'you don't miss the water til the well runs dry'
"when youve run out of water, its too late to dig a well."
Next job has a few hm that should be good . Most of the high grade is being left until the next cut in 10 or so years . All ravine and fairly steep ground . The only place your going to find good hm around here now cause it's hard to cut
22-24" log and at $8 you've got 2000 dollar butts.
Yes but you donot get to cut that many at 1 time . Only 1 bush that I have cut where every butt log has was number 1 veneer . Land owner was very happy with his money . I cut another small bush about a mile away and mostly hm and on very select cut way only a 3 or so trees per acre but it was big volume and land owner get 10 grand per acre . Rare case where the big butts were still good to go
The nicer sugar maple has been gone from here for a generation now. You find an individual tree here and there that dodged the saw. And now, when you drive down prices, it's just easier to send as pulp. I've seen lots of logs go to the pulp mill, can't be bothered for $20 here and there with all the handling and sorting added on. Go and buy a nice piece of clear maple, oh about $20 a 'running' foot and up. Who could afford real wood furniture, certainly not the masses. The shop can't barely buy the stock to have on hand, gotta pretty much have deposit on that new desk you want, to cover the wood $$. :D
Quote from: nativewolf on December 04, 2021, 06:00:46 AM
Quote from: Hogdaddy on December 03, 2021, 11:56:45 PM
I'm loving these poplar prices right now.... I've been cutting mostly redoak and hickory this year and then cut about 18,000 ft of walnut.. but this poplar takes the cake. Just cut 5 poplar trees this week in what I cut, 3725 ft in them, averaged .86 tree run. Just wish I had a boundary that I could really cut on. Right now fighting wet ground on 3 different bunches that I have traded for. If I could cut 20 or 30k a week, I might be able to buy momma a new pair of shoes! lol
Wow, that's great. So I have to ask..re the YP. Is that all going to a local mill?
Yeah, a local mill.
Something is going wrong, SPF 1k bf is up to $935.70 this morning on the N.Y. stock market. Do I hear a big POP coming?
Its hard to keep up anymore.
Lumber is back down at lowes for me. $4.x for 2x4. Around 8 for 2x6 If you correct for the currency printing of 2019, my local lumber retail price is completely normal now.
Oh I'm sure a Huge Bang is coming . It has to as things are way way to far out of line to make this work . The amount of money being thrown around here right now is scarey . Farms are selling here for Huge Huge money that makes no sense but it's happening . Lots of the money is not from here . Its from over seas
Quote from: ehp on December 07, 2021, 12:56:20 PMFarms are selling here for Huge Huge money that makes no sense but it's happening . Lots of the money is not from here . Its from over seas
Look up de-dollarization. Usa ruining its money is causing the world to exchange it in usa for other things that retain value better. They arent printing new land.
Prime farm dirt with the house lots already carved off from the road frontage was bringing 4500/acre locally in spring of 2020. Same ground is auctioning off now for $7500-10k per acre.
rules are alot different here , you can only divide a lot off a farm once period , we need more 1 acre lots here to build as they are crazy prices right where I live , its nothing for $350,000 to $450,000 for a acre building lot , as far as land farm prices here they are way way more than those prices you posted , like 5 years ago some farms here went for $28,000 a acre , that is not happening now
It's not all foreign money increasing farm $$. Up here it is government and Ontario's Teacher's Fund (government guarantees) buying the farms. The farmer around me got all his money from Ontario Teacher's Fund, government backed of course, can't have any risk you know. :D He never had any money to even buy a house lot before that. Yes, lots of free money went into his house, that's the first thing. 'Money's no object.' My father (an old school farmer) would roll in his grave. The flow of money continues, government makes money every day from tax don't have to get returns off investment interest. Besides, all investment money goes to Ontario, not New Brunswick. :D
they bought alot of farms around here 4 or 5 years ago after they sold their share in the Toronto Maple Leafs , alot of people have no idea on how much money that teachers fund has , its billions
16' 2x6" is still $5 more than 2019. It's drop more by spring. :)
in 1932 the soviets conquered their land holding, fertile capitalist cropping enemy ukraine by surrounding them and exporting all the food they produced until they starved them by the millions, it was called the holomodor and is how russia got its bread basket. we are slowly gonna fall into the same trap. there wont need to be guns. just a broken currency and high food prices. you priced peanut butter lately? just wait until the next crash.
the rich set our trends. when the rich are buying farmland everyone else will follow. the investment advisors that havent drank the print your way to prosperity koolaid all know that the bond returns are negative when corrected for inflation, the stock market is perched high atop mount calamity waiting for a banana peel on the step, and savings/CDs are bleeding out, they cant come close to maintaining your purchasing power, its just throwing money away slower than if you spent it on snickers bars.
money managers are tasked with growing your wad and the only thing growing long term from here has to be on the inflation train. so they are investing in farmland knowing that no matter how expensive now, the printing policy of fiat currencies will continually push it higher. nice cars, houses, forests and vacations, we would like to have, but food we need to have so farmland will always remain an inflation leader. acreage only gets smaller the longer you wait. price per acre only goes up. land values really cant crash for long in a printing press environment.
what stock can you buy where the stock itself secures the super cheap loan to buy it?
Ed's spot on about pension funds buying land. They usually have some criteria and it may be canada only for the teachers fund. There is a limited amount of land so they bid it up, up just keeps happening.
Same in the midwest of usa, started with John Hancock decades ago but really got hot around the time of the housing crisis. Farmland is still far over valued, very hard to get a return on capital that makes sense. That said it's been a long ongoing trend.
Take the University of Virginia- they have a $14 billion endowment. That's just the 1 school, they keep that invested to get a 5% return. When the stock market returns 30% they have an extra $4.2 billion. They have to sell some of the stock asset to keep the portfolio balanced so they are buying bonds and real estate. Urban land may have only been up 10% this year so they bought more urban land. Pensions end up owning gas stations, shopping malls, condos, farms, forests, etc. Our very own @wudman has seen this trend rise and fall in forestry. It's one of the reasons that towns with centers of education are more stable and wealthier, the universities have traditionally just bought land in the cities/towns where they are based. That's all changed but historically it was easy to see.
The Ontario Teachers Retirement Fund bought a substantial part of the 350,000 acres of timberland that the company that I worked for sold in 2004.
That same fund has furiously been buying up independent Veterinarian Practices in this area. The Vet business here has gone corporate.
Here, farm land-and that "farm land" can have pine trees and birch trees growing on it-is very high-priced. Only Mr. Mega-Farmer can afford it when a chunk goes up for sale.
And buy he does, and clears, and grows more corn. Rinse and repeat.
Meanwhile PEI potato farmers are in Ottawa today with potatoes to pass out to make citizens aware of a non issue with our trading partner to the south. If PEI potatoes are blocked, that also throws NB farmers in the same corral.
What new trade dispute will be drawn up next week? :snowball:
This blockade is self imposed by Trudeau's government, I should add.
Well I bid on 2 more bushes cause I'm stupid as its not like I'm out of work but I bid what they were worth. Trees over the highway hard and lots of them.. lot of blew over trees so you know your going to loose lots when bucking them off the stumps and I know alot of butt rot . Trees are way to old and bush has never been taken care off so the main mill was abit higher than me but the other little mill to the north beat both of us so someone needs a lesson of how to read standing Trees cause they sure not going to make any money on those bushes . Your going to have to block the highway to cut about 8 or 10 of the bad trees over the rd and hydro wires . Maybe a big excavator could push them over but no skidder using your cable will even come close to doing it
Checked Bloomberg business channel last night before going to bed an the price per 1k mbf was up over $1100. :(. What's going on here for it to jump $500. in two days >:(
4 state tornado rebuilding.
Since the bottoming out the first of September the price of lumber has been on a gradual incline, now over $1100 for 2 x 4's. Been happening before the tornado, but I'd say the hurricanes back then. Not that the tornadoes didn't push it higher. :-\ The jump was over a 3 month period. Still half what is was in May.
Mike probably has no trouble finding Irving covered lumber on the rail road yards.
Irving and idaho forest product very common in the world of cheap freight.
Quote from: mike_belben on December 14, 2021, 09:30:39 AM4 state tornado rebuilding.
It's just not right for these Corporate Ceo's to take advantage of people in dire straights so they can get richer >:(
Most of the Timber companies are public or private and big statements of "family values"- the large private companies mostly lead off with that line. Write them a letter and highlight that it is not a good family value. Hampton, Idaho Forest, Sierra, etc.
The public companies are pretty much obligated to make as much profit as they can, legally. Competition is huge. Many years they have losses. Is that not fair then either?
Futures contracts are traded by the public so its as much the public identifying a place to make a buck themselves.
Once upon a time you had to take delivery of your futures contract order. I think it may be the chicago mercantile exchange board who made the change to turn them to a trading toy that whiplashes the whole country.
It's either the companies or the Gov't that hire most people to work (have a job) or its the individual that self-employs.
The companies have to make a profit to hire (pay for) more people. The Gov't just gets their money by taking a cut.
Granted, seems like CEO's get a lot, but so do the sports players. I try not to be jealous.. i.e. not covet thy neighbor.
Sometimes it's the government paying for the private jobs to. :D
I'm sorry but the big public companies haven't lost money for a long time. I read bloom magizine weekly and read of a ceo wining he needs a 10 mil bonus because he got over another company's best quarter that's just greed.
He wont be taking any of it with him when he leaves earth. And it probably wouldnt bring much comfort where he might end up.
I know this is pretty much a hardwood thread but I'd be interested to know what y'all are getting for softwood sawlogs outside the PNW. We are seeing prices we haven't seen since the 90's. Once we get going I'll update but I'd like to know if it's industry wide or just our little pocket.
Tree run EWP here $250 3 years ago, $4-500 today same mill!
Quote from: quilbilly on February 05, 2022, 11:54:57 AM
I know this is pretty much a hardwood thread but I'd be interested to know what y'all are getting for softwood sawlogs outside the PNW. We are seeing prices we haven't seen since the 90's. Once we get going I'll update but I'd like to know if it's industry wide or just our little pocket.
I'd love to see more softwood pricing. We've got a ton of older large EWP to take down as part of the Yellow Poplar harvest. No idea what the pricing is like or even where to send it
@Wudman (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=624) Could you give some insight into pine pricing this winter here in VA/NC
Here's SPF prices for New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, and northern Maine (Ashland) from the Irvings. They pay more if on contract. White pine price for Russel and Swim mill in New Brunswick. They have a product spec. page there.
ITON is 2000 lbs
MTON is 2200 lbs
https://www.irvingwoodlands.com/jdi-woodlands-wood-producers-wood-prices.aspx
Another source of prices from a forest products marketing board in southern New Brunswick [current]
Markets (https://snbfpmb.ca/markets)
Mr Loom, where were the prices 2 years ago?
Personally, I don't know because I haven't any marketing board price sheets laying around to compare. Probably not hard to get with a phone call or walk in. Prices haven't peeked my interest to sell wood for quite some time.
I do know that stumpage on crown wood in NB was never adjusted.
I can only speak for my situation where I am at. Keep in mind that I normally have to pay more than the big mills as I am a small time place and don't buy enough volume. On the other side of that I am one of 4 mills in the area that will buy large sized pine, over 22" butt diameter. Anyway I'm paying from $55.00 to $70.00 per ton for top quality pine. Cypress is over 4X pine price.
Quote from: mudfarmer on February 05, 2022, 12:19:18 PM
Tree run EWP here $250 3 years ago, $4-500 today same mill!
That's what I'm hearing at the concentration yard in Western Mass. It's good if you are selling, and overdue if you ask me, but people buying lumber and timbers think it's still 1970. ::)
Quote from: Dave Shepard on February 05, 2022, 10:25:17 PM
Quote from: mudfarmer on February 05, 2022, 12:19:18 PM
Tree run EWP here $250 3 years ago, $4-500 today same mill!
That's what I'm hearing at the concentration yard in Western Mass. It's good if you are selling, and overdue if you ask me, but people buying lumber and timbers think it's still 1970. ::)
Yep and large mills with modern tech along with more efficient wood harvesting isn't helping price of a log, only the lumber out the other end feeding demand. Up here if you're cutting for a commercial mill, you know before hand where your trucks and harvestors will be going. That also reduces costs, so the machines run uninhibited to pay those large loan bills, often to a mill corporation/equipment dealer arrangement, that are almost out of hand in costs with the guy in the cab living cheque to cheque.
plantation pine is grown here by contract mills but native softwood is not our thing outside of some cedar pockets. I dont know where to do better than $200/mbf doyle on SPF and will likely not ever cut any. If i do come across sizeable pine i will buy it to saw myself.
The mill I'll be sending some w/pine to shortly is paying $500. clear $270. #1 and $180 for pallet. A yr ago prices were $400. $250. and $170.
I sold some southern yellow pine last week to a local mill for $300 a thousand.
And he took it down to 8 in.
White pine is around $75 a ton at another mill that buys by weight.
I got $385/mb straight through last fall for EWP.
Buyer said his log yard was empty and could not get supply; I probably could have gotten more :D
Here is a current hardwood price list for one of the mills I deal with.
So we just got a commitment till the end of the month for $1350 for 12"+ J sort DF and $1250 for 9"+
Quote from: quilbilly on February 15, 2022, 04:40:16 PM
So we just got a commitment till the end of the month for $1350 for 12"+ J sort DF and $1250 for 9"+
What is "J sort"?
Quote from: mudfarmer on February 18, 2022, 08:26:14 AM
Quote from: quilbilly on February 15, 2022, 04:40:16 PM
So we just got a commitment till the end of the month for $1350 for 12"+ J sort DF and $1250 for 9"+
What is "J sort"?
J= Japan K= Korea C=China
That's also a descending order of quality. We need a minimum of 5 rings per inch for a J log, in a cold market that might not make it. Tape can't leave the log when measured over 40'
@quilbilly (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=30292) So they want 5 rings it has to be so straight the log shows no sweep in 40' poles. That's Japan quality. Are they all cut to 40'? Wow.
Pricing seems great to my hardwood eyes. Hope you can get the wood out.
@skeans1 how's things your way?
I wonder what the price of yellow/Alaskan cedar is these days. When I was on the wet coast that all went mostly to Japan for temples. I rarely seen one as lumber unless it got mixed in with red cedar. Did some destructive sampling on the outer islands, for ring growth in a few old ancient brutes, 3-4' through. Bucked every 4 feet I think. Was 35 years ago so memory fades on the details. :D Had to leave them there on the ground to rot though. ::) Most of what I measured in timber cruise plots were 16-24" around wetlands, nothing huge.
Yes that's the best price since the early 90's for us. By a long ways. Heard rumors of rose burg in Oregon paying $1500. We don't expect it to hold at all.
The log can have slight sweep but the tape when held on the center of the butt and center of the top can't leave the log at any point. We have a 36' length average. So we can put one or two 26' on per load.
I have an Alaskan yellow cedar deck I just put on. Old growth. If taken care of properly it should outlive me.
Glad to hear.
I am seeing $1.10/bdft for yellow poplar butt logs from sawmills. That's wicked for YP sawlogs. The pricing from @Woodman52 was very interesting, thanks for that.
Thanks! Always love to learn
Quote from: nativewolf on February 18, 2022, 04:11:20 PM
@quilbilly (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=30292) So they want 5 rings it has to be so straight the log shows no sweep in 40' poles. That's Japan quality. Are they all cut to 40'? Wow.
Pricing seems great to my hardwood eyes. Hope you can get the wood out.
@skeans1 how's things your way?
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47446/CC707D1C-1278-4107-9386-FD11F16F63DC.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1636767934)
This is Japanese Export all day long once the long butt is taken, my requirements are normally 6 rings per inch half way out from the heart for this and some of the top Korean sorts we see. Normally our Japan stuff starts at 30' but has requirement of 36' average per load with a maximum of 41' including trim. Our big log for Korea start at 32" on the small end at 36' plus a foot of trim out to 65' no maximum on the butt size like Japan, both have very strict requirements on knot size such as Japan 1" or less straightness of the tape can't leave the center of the log more then 2" over the total length as well. When cutting for these sort of sorts two tapes is a must plus a standard tape for top diameter sizing as well as a copy of the sort sheets, my one export sort sheet is almost 35 sorts this doesn't include our domestic sorts.
The exacting specs is why they are willing to pay top dollar. They don't want to ship crap logs 1/2 way around the world. The rings per inch is pretty much ignored in NZ as it's all plantation Radiata. 2 Rings per inch is normal, and 1 isn't unusual. Top $ is pruned butt logs, which might be 90% clear grain wood. So the "J" spec here is quite different, but still the better grade logs.
Always an education gents.
@Skeans1 (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=37446) Pic is great! So Quilbilly is getting good pricing on much smaller diameter logs, 12" and 9" . Just curious if the price bumps move all across the region or if they are localized. How's tricks this winter.
Quote from: nativewolf on February 19, 2022, 12:41:10 AM
Always an education gents.
@Skeans1 (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=37446) Pic is great! So Quilbilly is getting good pricing on much smaller diameter logs, 12" and 9" . Just curious if the price bumps move all across the region or if they are localized. How's tricks this winter.
Skeans has more buyers and therefore better pricing. He is only about 3.5 hours south, but that moves him into much more private and state wood and better growing conditions. Our lowland is mostly site 2/3 while he has high class site 1 ground all over the place.
Our site 1 ground is all forest circus and therefore all locked up. Soon to expand another 100k acres of wilderness and wild and scenic rivers.
Oh our weyco sort right now has a 32" butt max. So that log has to be a nice clean log that isn't huge.
Maple moved up again at my buyer apparently. Tapping maple not cutting it right now :D, did not ask details
Interesting. Russia is floating a possible embargo on raw material exports ..no details yet but if timber is included (it was listed as a possibility) that will impact softwood pricing and some hardwoods as Russia is a major supplier to Europe as well as the global market as a whole (India, China, etc).
It would mean Russian lumber would be looking for a home if the ban is only to Europe. Be interesting to see how that one plays out. Could be softwood pricing soars.
It could also be that with $150 oil rippling through the system, and food prices skyrocketing that building comes to a standstill.
That new homestead fixer upper won't look so good with a 45 minute commute.
Nor will the 1,000's of open jobs be filled by rural labor buying $150 oil to commute. KY is cutting unemployment checks back from long months to 26 months but I see them still staying home for now. Who knows what some of these "house people" are living on?
What I've read is that lumber will now reach highs that exceed the recent past records. Home builders were saying then, at even those crazy prices it was not going to stop them, as only one aspect of overall costs combined with insane selling prices. In Birmingham, AL where a son sold his $250k older home for $850k last summer, that same neighborhood they often buy them and even tear some of them down, to build a new one just to "get into" that neighborhood. Go figure huh? ::)
My quartersaw log buyer told me this morning that they are going on quota and will not let their log inventory increase. He was also griping that he was being asked to scale a large number of logs that his main competitor was trying to unload.
Much of the 8/4 W.Oak goes to Europe.
Granted that has nothing to do with Pine framing in the US, but very few things run in a vacuum. Two weeks ago, the same mill had raised prices and was begging for more logs. The whole world runs on the same playbook. The guy building the 850K house that just got a 20% raise can get the phone call from a worried boss saying how he really hated to let him go but they just lost a billion dollar order in the Euro market.
Well first I want to think things well be ok for me because lumber prices are staying up and I can increase prices to cover the fuel increases. Sounds good. But if it goes like the last recession nobody buys any lumber.
Supposedly Ukraine supplies a large amount of oak to the euro market. Russian embargo of timber, I believe they're the largest exporter in the world, would make prices go insane. Russia needs the money and I doubt they're going to rid of their billion dollar baby
Oil fell quite a bit today, $15 a barrel. Will fall more in the next week as Venezuela and Iran start exporting again. If/When SA starts dumping oil we'll see it back below the $90 price. SA was counting on Iran and Venezuela being unavailable, if available they'll open the spouts to grab market share. In the USA our oil production has soared over the last year, we are now back almost to our all time high. Compared to the Iranian Revolution (took 5.6 mln barrels out) or the Arab oil embargo of 1973 (took 4 million barrels out) the impact from Russia (taking 3lmn out) is barely significant. In addition global production and demand has doubled from the the 1973 crisis to now. So, the impact of Russia is not going to s. be that large after the market figures out what the real loss will be. It's going to be about what the Texas Winter storm a year ago that took 1.5 bbl out of production when they did not insulate the pumps.
Re Russia, they'll still export to India and China but just not so much to Europe. Not really going to matter I think. The oil systems are setup to send oil out via pipeline that almost entirely go to Europe and it is trading at a $30/barrel discount and they are having troubles moving it. So, China can't take more oil- or can't take enough to help Russia. Timber is another matter, they can stop harvesting west of the Urals and just continue exports to China from Siberia and Far East. They can't even ship much out of the Black Sea as Turkey has closed straits and insurance premiums skyrocketed. They can ship out of St Petersburg or Murmansk/Archangel it is a long way from there to India/Far east.
today Russia announced it was banning 200 products from export. Forest products are on the list of 200.
This should have an immediate impact on global softwoods and hardwoods. Mostly softwoods but it is going to bite hard and deep. USA pricing may rise immediately in response, not sure..market has to weight this in contrast to rising rates maybe hitting demand.
Anyway, @quilbilly (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=30292) another brilliant move by Putin. God save the Ukraine
I'm no expert on lumber futures but they look to be getting close to the previous highs.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/67959/688my0.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1646968039)
I am really not sure what this means for US futures. Building is still strong here, logistics still weak. I am not sure if this just means the EU has trouble sourcing (Finland, Poland, Sweden, Estonia see high prices) or if softwoods from Canada start flowing to the EU ? Or? I know Russia also did lots of birch and alder. No idea how those markets work. The rail networks to china are already at capacity so getting lumber from Western Russia over to China is going to be tough. I don't think this will impact Russia to China sales from the Far Eastern provinces of Russia.
I read they might but didn't believe they would with the financial sanctions. I expect the export market to really pick up. It has quite a bit already but I expect quite a bit more. We have a small job next month that will have some export wood on it. We'll see what they will give us. Pricing should shake out by then.