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General Forestry => Firewood and Wood Heating => Topic started by: Upstatewoodchuc on March 09, 2021, 10:17:08 AM

Title: Kinetic splitters and production
Post by: Upstatewoodchuc on March 09, 2021, 10:17:08 AM
Hello again forestry guys and gals, havent been on in a long time due to being busy but I had some questions again. So long story long lol, I've been selling firewood for the last 10 years, when I started it was with a pickup with an 8ft bed, a maul and an ms310 (yuck). Obviously this setup was painfully slow, I improved by buying an older dieder splitter but a pickup takes 2 trips to deliver a real cord so next I got a 68 c50 dump truck that could take a cord in one shot. Now my bottle neck was loading so I got a ford 8n with a loader which helped somewhat but was still slow. Next I improved the splitting time somewhat by building a 4 way wedge and putting a 6.5hp Chonda motor on. So here we are today 10 years later and I have a 1988 tandem axle international dump truck, a michigan 85 wheel loader (24,000 lbs ish) with 3 yard 4 in 1 bucket, so I have loading and delivery pretty much optimized, cutting is relatively efficient cycling between a 365, 394xp and 3120xp so I don't have to sharpen until night. My current holdup is again splitting, if I have perfect 12-18" logs delivered which is almost never, I can split a cord in 2 hours, thats too slow. On one hand a firewood processor seems like they would be the answer, but my current source for wood is always big ugly pieces sometimes 40" across so from my limited experience with a bell 4000 processor I know that wouldn't work and I dont really want to find a new wood source because I currently get it at half the average market rate around here for tri axle log truck loads. How do I go about improving production? Would a kinetic splitter work effectively with this scenario? And how much do they improve production vs traditional? I figure a super splitter would run $4000 to my door the way I want it, is it worth it? Would could production look like with me running the kinetic splitter and help running the traditional with a 4 way wedge side by side? Any input and other advice is really welcome, thanks guys. -Pat
Title: Re: Kinetic splitters and production
Post by: mike_belben on March 09, 2021, 11:20:40 AM
for wood that big i think a box wedge with a drag back and a manual crane (winch and tongs, not hydraulic grapple-too expensive) feeding into a conveyor up into the truck.. not that its as fast as a kinetic, but for the money, i see this taking the most labor off your body and to me thats a paycheck in itself on saved rotator cuff and disc surgeries. 



your clam loader can bring the logs over and hold them up to buck rounds off in reach of the tongs while standing up straight. a hydraulic log lift is nice but then you have to 100% manually stand up and roll every one of these hunks over to the only spot it will grab.. and then counteract them from flopping as they walk onto the table.. thats all your spine making fast movements that are known to make young men old.  without a crane, you've got to sometimes manually roll these big pucks over on the table if you want to split around rot, ants, crotches or maybe just eject the piece.  with a crane and tongs on a winch cable you can reach out in every direction to load a puck, as long as the base unit is stabilized.  you can put stuff on the splitting deck with the tongs,  lift stuff off, or chomp the tongs on an offset and let a $100 chicom winch sacrifice itself instead of you ruining your own joints.  firewood is a terrible way to die.


i think 40" rounds is too big for a kinetic so any speed gains from those fast splits are nullified by the time, labor and maybe fuel spent manually quartering a big puck down to kinetic manageable size.  I've never run one, but i think a kinetic is the race horse of 12" diameter young cull wood. not old horrible twisty big stuff.  just an educated guess, maybe I'm wrong. 
Title: Re: Kinetic splitters and production
Post by: mike_belben on March 09, 2021, 11:24:56 AM
Extreme Wood Splitter Box Wedge Forestry Machine - YouTube (https://youtu.be/bTVA-Kgv5VU)


  i think this is a great dragback box design ...much cleaner mounting the wedges below the knife.  No trash sitting ontop the deck and no arm in the way.  Little chance of junk flying up at your either.
Title: Re: Kinetic splitters and production
Post by: mike_belben on March 09, 2021, 11:33:50 AM
GorillaBac is basically what i had in mind for the crane.. And that screw in handwheel is probably quite a bit more reliable than tongs in terms of falling off.

Homemade DIY Firewood processing crane attachment for log splitter by Gorillabac.com - YouTube (https://youtu.be/9FYQDtOaK5k)


But note how in the crane vid that the conventional style splitter still leaves much more manual labor to do than a box.  The guy running the box looks to be doing nothing but he has to wrestle the wood onto the lift which they dont show.. Thats all bent over work thats bad for your lumbar spine.


  Put that splitter, with this crane and feed it into a conveyor into a dump truck... youre hardly working. Thats the way to do it.  Nothing hard about building a box splitter if you have basic fab skills, a welder and a torch.
Title: Re: Kinetic splitters and production
Post by: hedgerow on March 09, 2021, 02:02:41 PM
I had a Kinectic splitter for a number of years and with the right wood and help you can make a lot of firewood in short order. We were doing a fair amount of ash on my farm clean up at the time.
The Kinectic really worked well with the ash. Got threw the ash went to big locust and hedge and the Kinectic just sit in the shed for three years so I sold it. Doesn't sound like you have the wood a kinectic would be happy with. Put the four grand down on a splitter that will do the big nasty wood. 
Title: Re: Kinetic splitters and production
Post by: Upstatewoodchuc on March 09, 2021, 02:18:35 PM
Thank you guys, had never thought of or seen manual cranes like that! Keep the good info coming! I should clarify, te wood is tree service wood that is all over the place in size, some pieces are up to 40", the majority is between 18" and 30" id say. -Pat
Title: Re: Kinetic splitters and production
Post by: Hilltop366 on March 09, 2021, 02:57:30 PM
I thought this one looked well made.

#200 Splitter Wars 2020 - Homebuilt Box Wedge Splitter - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YD2LyHhtoNA)

I split for my own boiler so it would be too fine a split for me. Another option is a vertical splitter, I've never used one but they look like a lot less wrestling of the block (no balancing) and no reloading or chasing the too big split pieces, good for any size block and to make any size finished product.

Eastonmade; 14 Tons Of Well Designed Log Splitter - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MG1c-_vPMo)
Title: Re: Kinetic splitters and production
Post by: mike_belben on March 09, 2021, 04:21:20 PM
I'm sure the easton is made well but the picture at 8mins in tells the story.  the best machine is the one thats gonna let you spend most of the day with your butt parked on a padded stool. 
Title: Re: Kinetic splitters and production
Post by: Upstatewoodchuc on March 09, 2021, 08:18:22 PM
Man, that vertical splitter does seem to take alot of the crappy parts of splitting out, but I also agree with Mike, the problem then becomes getting big rounds over to the ramp/lift, still alot of bending over, but much better than my current situation, the question is is it worth $7k?
Title: Re: Kinetic splitters and production
Post by: Hilltop366 on March 10, 2021, 07:36:24 AM
Quote from: Upstatewoodchuc on March 09, 2021, 08:18:22 PMthe question is is it worth $7k?


That I could not say, If a lift boom was added to it it would be complete. I see that they are available with a conveyer as well.
Title: Re: Kinetic splitters and production
Post by: Al_Smith on March 10, 2021, 10:39:20 AM
For the average fire wooder I just can't see heavy built horizontal splitters .In my opinion a well built tip up would better suffice than using a hoist to place a big round in the splitter that once split still could have chunks that weigh 80 to 100 pounds .You know you can roll rounds a lot more simply than lifting them .Just an opinion no more no less .As far as flywheel kinetics ,they kind of scare me . :o
Title: Re: Kinetic splitters and production
Post by: stavebuyer on March 10, 2021, 04:44:09 PM
If you have mostly big ugly blocks: Eastonmade with the box wedge and log lift is the way to go. A kinetic in good wood will run right with it but not in the oversize stuff.

Production wise you can split the claimed 2+ cords per hour but not if you have cut and move the blocks. One man show starting with a log pile and a saw 4 cords in 8 hour a day would be a lot closer to reality.


 
Title: Re: Kinetic splitters and production
Post by: Upstatewoodchuc on March 10, 2021, 08:45:48 PM
Fair enough, it does seem as if the stuff between a well made vertical /horizontal unit that flips and a full blown high end processor is almost not worth it. Im looking locally at whats out there in the world of heavy duty flipable sitters. One local dealer has "american" splitters, and one has speeco's
Title: Re: Kinetic splitters and production
Post by: thriceor on March 10, 2021, 10:18:27 PM
Quote from: mike_belben on March 09, 2021, 11:20:40 AM
for wood that big i think a box wedge with a drag back and a manual crane (winch and tongs, not hydraulic grapple-too expensive) feeding into a conveyor up into the truck.. not that its as fast as a kinetic, but for the money, i see this taking the most labor off your body and to me thats a paycheck in itself on saved rotator cuff and disc surgeries.



your clam loader can bring the logs over and hold them up to buck rounds off in reach of the tongs while standing up straight. a hydraulic log lift is nice but then you have to 100% manually stand up and roll every one of these hunks over to the only spot it will grab.. and then counteract them from flopping as they walk onto the table.. thats all your spine making fast movements that are known to make young men old.  without a crane, you've got to sometimes manually roll these big pucks over on the table if you want to split around rot, ants, crotches or maybe just eject the piece.  with a crane and tongs on a winch cable you can reach out in every direction to load a puck, as long as the base unit is stabilized.  you can put stuff on the splitting deck with the tongs,  lift stuff off, or chomp the tongs on an offset and let a $100 chicom winch sacrifice itself instead of you ruining your own joints.  firewood is a terrible way to die.


i think 40" rounds is too big for a kinetic so any speed gains from those fast splits are nullified by the time, labor and maybe fuel spent manually quartering a big puck down to kinetic manageable size.  I've never run one, but i think a kinetic is the race horse of 12" diameter young cull wood. not old horrible twisty big stuff.  just an educated guess, maybe I'm wrong.
Mike, you are absolutely right.  Much better to spend a few dollars on some machinery than your back or shoulder (had my shoulder done in 2016 - luckily a full recovery 😊).
Title: Re: Kinetic splitters and production
Post by: stavebuyer on March 11, 2021, 04:42:02 AM
There are several drawbacks to the horizontal/vertical splitters. First is getting the blocks positioned(manual), second the splits have to moved by hand before you can get the next round up to the splitter. If you don't have a conveyor at least running horizontal you can split into a bucket....if you have a better grade splitter that has the wedge stationary and a push plate on the cylinder you can use the splitter to keep the split material pushed out the way. Re-handling wears out your joints and pays nothing. Good equipment pays for itself; especially something like a commercial splitter. Yes they are spendy but not compared to what you already invested in a loader and truck. The splitter "is" always the choke point and the best place to focus. Increase your production by 2 cords a day and extend the "life" of your back and elbows. The math works out just fine for someone proven to have stuck to it like yourself. A self loading splitter is a must. If you need uniform splits the vertical Timber Devil design is hard to beat. The horizontal box wedge type with drag back and autocycle is even less handling but you will have more waste and trash.



Title: Re: Kinetic splitters and production
Post by: 47sawdust on March 11, 2021, 06:50:15 AM
I'm real happy with my Timberdevil splitter.
I would not be happy splitting 40'' gnarly rounds !

Before the conversion to self-propelled


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/26307/IMG_0017.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1604440115)
 

After
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/26307/20201231_112353.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1609446353)
 
Title: Re: Kinetic splitters and production
Post by: thecfarm on March 11, 2021, 07:21:34 AM
I'm with Al on splitting a big round 3 feet across in half up in the air 2½ feet!!!  :o 
Now that 47sawdust guy has the set up for that. The big half round can not fall off on both sides.
I know the OP is not just a homeowner splitter, that is what I have. I tip my cheapy splitter up, and split though big ones on the ground. I get them in usable size and have to re-split and re-handle them again.  :o  Kinda like sawing a BIG log on your sawmill, it's a bother to do, and seems like you spend more time on a big one than a smaller one too. 
Title: Re: Kinetic splitters and production
Post by: nativewolf on March 11, 2021, 07:21:39 AM
Williams tree service in Flint Hill VA uses two super splitter kinetics and does thousands of cords a year.  Very much an assembly line process that never stops, 4-6 guys.   Two guys buck logs into rounds, then quarter if required.  They fill a rack with rounds, the rack is moved by skidsteer to the splitter, the splitter output is dropped into a long conveyor where it will eventually fill a football field sized pile, about 20' high.  Then they start another pile.  All the splitting is super splitters.  

He faced the exact same issue you face, cheap wood is ugly.  For him, owning a tree service, much of it is yard tree material.  He'll buy specialty stuff like hickory that he can't get free but he doesn't like to spend money :D.  

Anyway, I was fairly amazed to see this process working.  Different sorts for different buyers, everything from bagged romance wood, to hickory for pizza ovens, to outdoor boiler woods.  Quite an operation.  

I guess my point here is that if you are keen on keeping the cheap wood supply than a super splitter may work but be prepared to really think about the process and keep machine use to a max and your wear and tear on your body to a min.  Maybe I can swing by and take a pic Friday.  We'll try.
Title: Re: Kinetic splitters and production
Post by: thecfarm on March 11, 2021, 07:24:15 AM
Quote from: nativewolf on March 11, 2021, 07:21:39 AMeventually fill a football field sized pile, about 20' high.      

 
I would like to see that field.   :o   That is some firewood!!!!
Title: Re: Kinetic splitters and production
Post by: Upstatewoodchuc on March 11, 2021, 08:03:10 AM
I really appreciate all the insight guys! That timberedevil sure is interesting, what does something like that go for in US dollars? I also just stumbled across Wolfe Ridge splitters who actually aren't that far from me, they make some splitters between 5 and 9 grand that have everything from hydraulic log lifts to wedges between single, 4, 6 and 12 way. That sure would save the back, but again alot of these splitters have a slow cycle time, almost makes me wonder if halving the big pieces with a saw and a super split would be better.
Title: Re: Kinetic splitters and production
Post by: barbender on March 11, 2021, 08:21:33 AM
Wolfe Ridge have an excellent reputation. I think with any of Chris' splitters, the bottleneck will be the person feeding it, not the splitter.
Title: Re: Kinetic splitters and production
Post by: Nathan4104 on March 11, 2021, 09:10:44 AM
As has been mentioned already, your whole process shape/design could be costing time somewhere else that the splitter won't overcome no matter how nice it is.  Personally I think any with a log lift or crane for those massive chunks would help your productivity. Or a skid steer mounted/operated one to break them up into smaller pieces to then handle on a smaller splitter.  So many ways, so little time, so much back ache :)   
A conveyor off the splitter would be a key part just to keep the wood away from you and either into your drying pile or direct into the trailer for delivery.  
Just remember too that a 6 way or more wedge is gonna need pretty serious power, which means bigger everything, and potentially slower cycle times without lots of $$ into it, then the question of other efficiencies come into question along your line!  
Title: Re: Kinetic splitters and production
Post by: Upstatewoodchuc on March 11, 2021, 09:16:51 AM
Quote from: barbender on March 11, 2021, 08:21:33 AM
Wolfe Ridge have an excellent reputation. I think with any of Chris' splitters, the bottleneck will be the person feeding it, not the splitter.
I'm really liking what I've seen, the build quality looks like something I would fab up, they have a dealer in VT 2 hours from me. I may have to check them out in person. 
Title: Re: Kinetic splitters and production
Post by: PoginyHill on March 11, 2021, 10:22:36 AM
Built-Rite has similar quality splitters and other firewood equipment. Splitters are designed differently than Wolfe-Ridge - not better or worse, just different. They are made in southern Vermont - Ludlow.
Title: Re: Kinetic splitters and production
Post by: stavebuyer on March 11, 2021, 11:33:04 AM
For the initial quartering of oversized blocks a skid steer or 3pt splitter is safer, easier, and faster than either a horizontal or vertical free standing splitter you are trying to wrestle with. If the logs are just "big" a Supersplit Kinetic will handle the quartered chunks just fine. If you have lots of sawn off limb knots and crotches not so much . The machine you already have will work for what the Supersplit struggles with. 

I personally went through the whole cycle starting with my box store horizontal/vertical I already had for my my personal use. Next I added skid steer mounted for giant blocks after I injured my shoulder trying wrestle an oak block up to my vertical splitter. Then I added a Supersplit Heavy Duty Kinetic, Eastonmade 22-28, Dyna SC14 Processor, and Eastonmade hydraulic elevator.  They all have there strengths and weaknesses.

I fed mine quiet a bit from logs I cut off and upgraded. Lots of double hearts, crooks, metal etc. For the money spent the kinetic and the elevator is the most production gain for the least money and I think is probably the sweet spot. The big splitters will drink the fuel. Kinetic just purrs along at a fast idle and won't burn a gallon of gas in day. A 20hp+ multiwedge splitter may burn a gallon an hour if your pushing it.

When I first bought the kinetic I built a large extra heavy "table" that I used as a staging area for my blocks. I loaded the "table" with skid steer thus eliminated lifting. I would park the wheel loader bucket in front of the kinetic splitter would "load" the bucket as it split. That got rid of having to toss or re-handle the splits. Mostly sliding and aligning instead of lifting or throwing. The multiwedge hydro really shines in middle size stuff or boiler wood customers where you can run one pass and not worry about re-splits or uniform size so much. Processors are great but it can be a chore to find a steady diet of poles to keep them fed and the margins can get pretty slim in some markets.
Title: Re: Kinetic splitters and production
Post by: mike_belben on March 11, 2021, 11:37:28 AM
I already have my hillbilly limb cutting station for stuff not needing split.. which is atleast 50% of the fiber that TSI produces.  Its the fastest possible way to process limbs with mininal human effort and only a saw.. Just the right balance of very cheap, pretty easy, pretty fast. i dont want to run limbs through a processor and be burning fuel, waiting on a pusher cycle for nothing with stuff thats just going around a knife.



(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/0311211028_Film3-1.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1615480367)



Something like this.   Probably can figure a way to do it with just 2 conveyors once the site work is finished and processor built to really stare at. Hopefully sub 3 years for that station to be constructed and under a high tin roof.


I forgot to include my old conventional vert/horiz 5" thirteen horse splitter parked between the reject pile and the corner of a conveyor so that whatever gets kicked out of the processor lands next to the conventional and tossed back into the conveyor stream by hand when there is enough to run a batch.
Title: Re: Kinetic splitters and production
Post by: mike_belben on March 11, 2021, 12:14:52 PM
 better layout for loader and forklift access. Dont wanna back into opposing decks. 


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/0311211112_Film3-1.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1615482811)
Title: Re: Kinetic splitters and production
Post by: Al_Smith on March 11, 2021, 04:06:31 PM
I've seen vid clips of a couple of young guys looked to be under 25 feeding kinetic splitters .Big  husky dudes right off the farm who could  eat  hay still the bale tied with wire .Doesn't take them long to spit a cord .Fast forward 30 plus years and see how well they do working by themselves .If I were a betting man  I'd wager not nearly as fast .
Now I'm no spring chicken and 73 years old .I can get a cord cord and a half a day if it were chunked up .Split and stacked at not near at break neck speed and still relax on my patio under an umbrella out of the hot sun and enjoy a malt beverage or three and not kill myself .It's not all about cycle time .Steady pace wins the race .
Title: Re: Kinetic splitters and production
Post by: Upstatewoodchuc on March 15, 2021, 11:56:34 AM
Well to keep everyone updated, I stumbled into a 40 ton flipable splitter at TSC for 1799 due to a dented gas tank, has a 25gpm pump and 5 inch ram with a 9.5 second cycle time. I've decided this plus my dieder with a 4 way is the best way to tackle this year and then go big next season, alot of the stuff inbetween just doesn't make sense. And the way I see it after watching craigslist and marketplace for the last year, I could run the pics out of this splitter and sell it for almost what I paid in a year or two, people want 900 for 20 year old 25 ton splitters here. I did get to use the new 40 ton for an afternoon and I sat on a block of wood next to it flipped vertical and rolled everything to it and when stuff was more than a step away I backed the splitter and my tractor farther into the pile, the thing splits as fast as I could feed it and my back felt great!
Title: Re: Kinetic splitters and production
Post by: brianJ on March 15, 2021, 02:31:25 PM
Quote from: Upstatewoodchuc on March 15, 2021, 11:56:34 AM
Well to keep everyone updated, I stumbled into a 40 ton flipable splitter at TSC for 1799 due to a dented gas tank, has a 25gpm pump and 5 inch ram with a 9.5 second cycle time. I've decided this plus my dieder with a 4 way is the best way to tackle this year and then go big next season, alot of the stuff inbetween just doesn't make sense. And the way I see it after watching craigslist and marketplace for the last year, I could run the pics out of this splitter and sell it for almost what I paid in a year or two, people want 900 for 20 year old 25 ton splitters here. I did get to use the new 40 ton for an afternoon and I sat on a block of wood next to it flipped vertical and rolled everything to it and when stuff was more than a step away I backed the splitter and my tractor farther into the pile, the thing splits as fast as I could feed it and my back felt great!
This is what I have been thinking but did not want to rain on your parade.    Firewood is nothing more than a material handling problem.   Other than a processor with conveyors, the way to get efficiency is to set up a layout with a minimum of handling.   I get blocked wood into a bucket them have the bucket one step from the splitter and the splitter is close enough to throw pieces onto the split pile.   When I am cutting tops I will cut small branches that don't need splitting until I have a bucket full.   Sometimes takes 2 or three tops.   That bucket full dumps directly onto the pile.    Sometimes I arrange a delivery & split directly into my pickup rather than tossing on the pile.
Title: Re: Kinetic splitters and production
Post by: Al_Smith on March 15, 2021, 05:15:37 PM
Not to be a doubting Thomas but to be more accurate a 5" cylinder on a 3000 PSI system which is usually set at 2750 is closer to 27-28  tons, not 40 tons .I don't why those manufactures insist on inaccuracies but most do . That said most likely using a 5" over a 4" cylinder is it doesn't put the strain on the system which would generate less heat and heat is what causes failure over time .IMO way too much interest in cycle time on these things .Usually unless you are 24-26 years old the splitter will out run you .It doesn't get tired but you will .
Title: Re: Kinetic splitters and production
Post by: Upstatewoodchuc on March 15, 2021, 06:40:37 PM
From what I can tell this system is 3800 psi, 5" cylinder and 25gpm pump, I think the 40 to might be correct because I've been busting crotches with it and not much slows it down, I'd say it has 2-3x's the splitting power of my old hopped up dieder and it cycles quick. That being said I totally understand your comment because most of the high tonnage consumer splitters have low psi and crappy pumps that make slow cycle times
Title: Re: Kinetic splitters and production
Post by: mike_belben on March 15, 2021, 09:20:16 PM
I doubt many people know who that is these days AL.  ;)
Title: Re: Kinetic splitters and production
Post by: Al_Smith on March 16, 2021, 09:36:25 AM
Another thing .Because I worked 29 years in an auto engine plant although did not do hydraulics systems I had to be familiar of how they work .I have in my library of books  among other things the design manual published by Parker-Hannifin .Interesting enough in the charts it shows using cylinders on a system pressures far below what they are designed for .By doing so the life expectancy of the systems far exceed running at full pressure often by a factor of ten or more .
For example the 5" cylinder on my home built is a P-H super duty cylinder with a 4500 PSI rating but while in service only had about 800 PSI .
It would be unusual to find many systems that use higher pressures than 3000 PSI and those would be for something out of the ordinary .BTW I can't even lift that large cylinder any more because it's over 200 pounds .I was a lot younger and stronger when I built that thing .
As far as ratings take a look see at what Timber Wolf rates their splitters .Unless it's changed they rate the 5" models at an honest 29 ton rating and the 4" at 19 tons .Just my observation ,call them whatever you want . :)
Title: Re: Kinetic splitters and production
Post by: Al_Smith on March 16, 2021, 09:52:29 AM
You could go on about splitter designs until the cows come home with different view points .I'll give one example.
My bud who owns a tree service has an older tip up  TSC model with a 4" and an 8 HP Briggs running wide open which is faster than my home built .However his cylinder gets hot enough to fry an egg on .Mine using an 11 HP Briggs at 2/3 throttle with a 5" doesn't over heat and the transfer from low pressure to high  pressure is set at 900 and it seldom shifts .Plus it doesn't blow your ears out listening to that engine screaming away and that alone is worth something .
Title: Re: Kinetic splitters and production
Post by: Upstatewoodchuc on March 16, 2021, 10:26:04 AM
I agree, technique and process are the most important, after running these two splitters i think a good conveyer would be the next best addition for upping production versus adding a third commercial splitter such as a box wedge.
Title: Re: Kinetic splitters and production
Post by: Al_Smith on March 16, 2021, 12:45:51 PM
The idea is splitting the firewood to a usable size .An actual wide pattern splitting axe works very well and a young strong guy can out run a hydraulic splitter--but the splitter doesn't tire  out .Doesn't need a coffee break, smoke break or beer break .Just needs some fuel from time to time .In my "golden years " I've refrained from swinging an axe as much as I can .Something being said about working smarter rather than harder.. 8)
Title: Re: Kinetic splitters and production
Post by: mike_belben on March 16, 2021, 02:05:14 PM
I have come to conclude that work and exercise are horses of a different color that fool us into thinking theyre the same.  Proper exercise [along with diet and rest] is the key to youth.  

Work pretends to be exercise but it doesnt care if it kills you.. Only that the work gets done.  No one is gonna tell you to curl 2500 reps, because that just ruins a joint. 

But the wood pile or the tobacco field or whatever will say i need 3000 reps, and im good exercise.  But its a liar.  Carpal tunnel, tennis elbow, tendonitis, lumbar degenerative disc disease, rotator cuffs, AC arthritis.. Knee, hip and foot problems.    


Thats what a splitting maul really offers long term.  Some will get a worse deal that others.  
Title: Re: Kinetic splitters and production
Post by: Gere Flewelling on March 22, 2021, 04:46:08 PM
My son and I purchased the largest Super Split last year.  I had planned to purchase a box splitter, but the expense was just too great.  The Super Split was cheap $$ in comparison.  I purchase the large table and added a folding extension that tapered at the end to match up with our wood conveyor.  We cut up log length for fire wood and slabs for camp fire wood.  That little machine would run all day on a tank of gas, never ran out of power, and if it wouldn't split it it would cut it.  We went from a 2' homemade hydraulic and a 4' hydraulic splitter with hydraulic tables to this machine.  If we had big stuff we would put it in the tractor bucket and bring it up table level or use a homemade TPH lifting boom with a hand winch and tongs to lift them up onto the super split.  The table is designed to keep most big chunks on the table.  They big ones you don't split in half, you take pie sized pieces out of them till they get small.  The speed of splitting normal sized wood 16" and down is 
unbelievable, and it is pretty quick with larger ones as well.  There is very little waste that comes off the wood compared to box type splitters or wood processors with the multi wedges.  And who would ever wasting time splitting slabs into kindling?  The Super Split doesn't care.  It sips gas and runs them through faster than you can feed it, making perfect campfire wood.  A great investment in my opinion.  Did I mention I fit in the "old" category and have back issues.  You still have to use common sense to keep from getting hurt.  That splitter paid for itself in one year.  It will take many years with the box splitters.  Not that I wouldn't love to have one.  Great invention, wish I had thought of it.
Title: Re: Kinetic splitters and production
Post by: Upstatewoodchuc on March 22, 2021, 09:04:39 PM
Quote from: Gere Flewelling on March 22, 2021, 04:46:08 PM
My son and I purchased the largest Super Split last year.  I had planned to purchase a box splitter, but the expense was just too great.  The Super Split was cheap $$ in comparison.  I purchase the large table and added a folding extension that tapered at the end to match up with our wood conveyor.  We cut up log length for fire wood and slabs for camp fire wood.  That little machine would run all day on a tank of gas, never ran out of power, and if it wouldn't split it it would cut it.  We went from a 2' homemade hydraulic and a 4' hydraulic splitter with hydraulic tables to this machine.  If we had big stuff we would put it in the tractor bucket and bring it up table level or use a homemade TPH lifting boom with a hand winch and tongs to lift them up onto the super split.  The table is designed to keep most big chunks on the table.  They big ones you don't split in half, you take pie sized pieces out of them till they get small.  The speed of splitting normal sized wood 16" and down is
unbelievable, and it is pretty quick with larger ones as well.  There is very little waste that comes off the wood compared to box type splitters or wood processors with the multi wedges.  And who would ever wasting time splitting slabs into kindling?  The Super Split doesn't care.  It sips gas and runs them through faster than you can feed it, making perfect campfire wood.  A great investment in my opinion.  Did I mention I fit in the "old" category and have back issues.  You still have to use common sense to keep from getting hurt.  That splitter paid for itself in one year.  It will take many years with the box splitters.  Not that I wouldn't love to have one.  Great invention, wish I had thought of it.
 
Thank you very much for the insight! After all these years im still learning everyday, and im almost thinking that adding a super split and a conveyer to the mix next year would be the ticket. The 40 ton flipable splitter I ended up buying gets the muscle work out of quartering the big guys and then the quarters get thrown to the guy with the 4 way wedge on the smaller splitter, but there definitely seems to be room for a kinetic in the process. 
Title: Re: Kinetic splitters and production
Post by: stavebuyer on March 23, 2021, 03:18:49 AM
Quote from: Gere Flewelling on March 22, 2021, 04:46:08 PM
My son and I purchased the largest Super Split last year.  I had planned to purchase a box splitter, but the expense was just too great.  The Super Split was cheap $$ in comparison.  I purchase the large table and added a folding extension that tapered at the end to match up with our wood conveyor.  We cut up log length for fire wood and slabs for camp fire wood.  That little machine would run all day on a tank of gas, never ran out of power, and if it wouldn't split it it would cut it.  We went from a 2' homemade hydraulic and a 4' hydraulic splitter with hydraulic tables to this machine.  If we had big stuff we would put it in the tractor bucket and bring it up table level or use a homemade TPH lifting boom with a hand winch and tongs to lift them up onto the super split.  The table is designed to keep most big chunks on the table.  They big ones you don't split in half, you take pie sized pieces out of them till they get small.  The speed of splitting normal sized wood 16" and down is
unbelievable, and it is pretty quick with larger ones as well.  There is very little waste that comes off the wood compared to box type splitters or wood processors with the multi wedges.  And who would ever wasting time splitting slabs into kindling?  The Super Split doesn't care.  It sips gas and runs them through faster than you can feed it, making perfect campfire wood.  A great investment in my opinion.  Did I mention I fit in the "old" category and have back issues.  You still have to use common sense to keep from getting hurt.  That splitter paid for itself in one year.  It will take many years with the box splitters.  Not that I wouldn't love to have one.  Great invention, wish I had thought of it.
Very little waste generated with the Super Split. Running a box or multi-wing wedge  I would generate a pickup load a day of waste. With the kinetic, that material stays in the sale pile. One of the issues with the multi-wedge common to any make or style machine is that the feedstock never "matches". The knot is always in the wrong spot, the diameter is two inches bigger or smaller than needed to make into make 4 or six uniform splits. So you end up with a high percentage of wood that is larger than you want or even worse you have to split again into pieces that then are really too small. Kinetic wood is more uniform and is easier sell at premium price to the upscale crowd who pay for such things. 

I agree with Upstatewoodchuc on reducing the big blocks into quarters before hoisting them up. I personally like the machine mounted(skid steer or 3pt tractor) for that task but the vertical option works as does noodling with a saw. I will say if you do follow up with the Super Split next season it will likely become your favorite option. 
Title: Re: Kinetic splitters and production
Post by: Gere Flewelling on March 23, 2021, 08:35:56 AM
One detail I didn't mention is that the Super Split needs to be a one man operation as far as placing the wood and activating the controls.  Things happen so fast, the slightest distraction can be dangerous for a second person.  When working by your self it is not really an issue if you stay focused.  I would not suggest splitting wood next to where cheerleaders are practicing.  Just saying  :o.
Title: Re: Kinetic splitters and production
Post by: Upstatewoodchuc on March 23, 2021, 09:34:46 AM
Quote from: Gere Flewelling on March 23, 2021, 08:35:56 AM
One detail I didn't mention is that the Super Split needs to be a one man operation as far as placing the wood and activating the controls.  Things happen so fast, the slightest distraction can be dangerous for a second person.  When working by your self it is not really an issue if you stay focused.  I would not suggest splitting wood next to where cheerleaders are practicing.  Just saying  :o.
Very true, if I pull the trigger on the supersplit I have already decided I would be the only one running it, I just don't think I could trust help running a kinetic splitter.
Title: Re: Kinetic splitters and production
Post by: mike_belben on March 23, 2021, 11:38:15 AM
Put the cheerleaders away, check. 
Title: Re: Kinetic splitters and production
Post by: cutterboy on March 24, 2021, 06:29:25 PM
Quote from: mike_belben on March 23, 2021, 11:38:15 AM
Put the cheerleaders away, check. ;D
No, put the wood splitter away! ;D
Title: Re: Kinetic splitters and production
Post by: woodworker9 on March 29, 2021, 12:08:44 AM
Late to the party, but I own a Wolfe Ridge 35 HO.  Magnum package, which is 5" cylinder, 4" rod, 22 gpm pump.  8 second cycle time.  Great machine, and I'm very happy with it.  Now that I've run 40 cords through it, I've learned that I wished I would have purchased a box wedge unit.  I have the 4 way wedge, and a 6 way wedge for it that I bought extra.  I never use it.  I sell bundled hardwood, so I'm looking for nice, clean perfect splits.

The 4 way and 6 way do make plenty of kindling, but I bag it up and sell it for $5 for a full bag, and my customer base loves it.  I sell 1 cubic foot bags for $8, and 2 for $15.  No bulk sales at all.  Not interested.  Not profitable enough.

I get 100% free tree service wood.  I've got a couple guys that drop off trailer and dump truck loads every week.  I can barely keep up.  A LOT of it is huge oak, locust, maple, etc.....and 40" to 50" rounds is common.  Just got 3 truckloads of Ash dropped off, and 75% of it is over 36" diameter.

Because I don't have a box wedge, I've gotten tired of wrestling those monster rounds onto the machine.  The log lift handles them easily to lift them up on the splitter, but dealing with them after they get pushed through is another matter.  Several hundred pound chucks of wood falling everywhere at times.

I now noodle all the big rounds into quarters.  Takes a bit of extra time, but I have a 500i that makes short work of it.  I spent 90 minutes this morning noodling up that Ash, and it's now much more manageable for the 4 way.

At some point, I will probably build my own box wedge machine with a 28 gallon pump and 20 hp Honda.  I would probably use a box wedge 90% of the time with the tree service wood.  

Who cares about the kindling?  It's about speed, and not breaking your neck, not worrying about losing a face cord of firewood out of a 10 cord load.  I still sell the kindling anyway.....not all of it.  A lot of it goes in my own woodstove.  

I set all the nice splits for bundling, and all the chunks and shorts are stacked by my workshop for my own heat.
Title: Re: Kinetic splitters and production
Post by: stavebuyer on March 29, 2021, 07:36:01 PM
Tree service wood won't work all that well on a box wedge either. Been down that road. It won't be uniform and you will rip the wedge apart after you force enough knots through it. Big is fine. Sawn off limb knots and crotches not so much.
They don't post those videos.
Title: Re: Kinetic splitters and production
Post by: woodworker9 on March 29, 2021, 10:38:54 PM
Agreed, but I cut around the big crotch pieces, and I don't try to jamb them through the splitter.  There's plenty of good wood available to not worry about the crappy stuff.

My wife and I enjoy an outdoor bonfire on the patio from time to time, and I also heat my shop with wood, so that stuff gets burned up that way, once it's dried.

Big hardwood rounds are perfectly matched by a drag back box wedge machine.  Seen it with my own eyes.  Wolfe Ridge and Eastonmade make very good ones.
Title: Re: Kinetic splitters and production
Post by: stavebuyer on March 30, 2021, 04:09:52 AM
I had the same experience with the 6-way. Very seldom found it right for the task and a real hassle to wrestle the pieces needing to be re-split off, around, or over the wedge.

I had 4-way,6 way, and the very first box wedge Eastonmade built on my 22-28. I used the box wedge the most and found it most effective raised all the way up and running large rounds into boiler wood.

Two main issues. First is always going to be your wings are fixed and your logs are not. Every pass generally slices two pieces off the outside that vary from kindling to full size. Second is the fun times you have trying to free a tough knot stuck in a box wedge.

Yes, box wedge works better than 4-way or 6-way for big rounds. Big and knotty; they need to pay a tipping fee as free is still overpriced.
Title: Re: Kinetic splitters and production
Post by: woodworker9 on April 06, 2021, 12:21:43 AM
I pile up all my nasty, gnarly crotch pieces, take off the 4 way wedge, and split them into chunks with just the single wedge.  I burn that stuff in my woodshop woodstove.  I just finished restoring this 70's vintage Fisher Grandpa Bear stove.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15890/20210316_142322_resized.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1617682845)
 
Title: Re: Kinetic splitters and production
Post by: Upstatewoodchuc on April 06, 2021, 05:43:15 AM
Quote from: woodworker9 on April 06, 2021, 12:21:43 AM
I pile up all my nasty, gnarly crotch pieces, take off the 4 way wedge, and split them into chunks with just the single wedge.  I burn that stuff in my woodshop woodstove.  I just finished restoring this 70's vintage Fisher Grandpa Bear stove.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15890/20210316_142322_resized.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1617682845)

Nice stove woodworker! I do basically the same, id feel bad mixing in waste with customer loads so all the waste chunks of wood that are unshakable but still good blown up knots or twisted stuff gets bucketed away from the processing site and burned in the garage woodstove which is an old 70's Earth Stove.
Title: Re: Kinetic splitters and production
Post by: woodworker9 on April 07, 2021, 12:24:16 AM
Thank you.  It was a rusty trainwreck of a stove when I bought it.  I welded up a baffle plate for it to create a secondary burn of the gasses before going up the chimney, and it works great.  My other stove, which was a smaller Fisher Grandma Bear, wasn't putting out enough heat on the really cold cold days, and this one throws off a lot more heat.

And, yes, I burn all the ugly wood myself.  I only sell the perfect looking splits, bundled up nicely.  I cut everything at 16", but the tree service guys can't seem to cut their logs into the right sized sections, regardless of how many times I ask them to use multiples of 16".  So, I have a rather huge and growing pile of shorts, too, that I also burn myself, or give to my daughter and her husband.
Title: Re: Kinetic splitters and production
Post by: stavebuyer on April 08, 2021, 12:35:20 PM
I stumbled across the photo looking for something else but thought this topic was a good place to share it.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/25189/20171013_140729.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1617898162)
 

We were feeding bigger blocks through the 6-way wedge and finishing them up into uniform stove wood splits with the kinetic. That loader had a 3 yard bucket and stacked rounded up would yield 1/2 cord. We generally had a waiting list for wood and many customers dropped empty trailers

Now obviously piddling around with firewood doesn't justify that kind of capital investment in a wheel loader. Firewood was a sideline to the log yard which in itself was an offshoot of the sawmill. The blocks mostly came from our being "paid" to upgrade logs that were poorly manufactured to make them into a higher value log. So we either paid to haul off the chunks or processed them it into a very saleable product. If you didn't cut and split you couldn't give it away.

Note the size of the splits coming off the the 6-way wedge; if you are selling stove wood you need a kinetic. We loved boiler wood but sold probably 10-1 of the stove sized splits. Many of our customers were older and really appreciated wood they could handle.
 
Title: Re: Kinetic splitters and production
Post by: Upstatewoodchuc on April 08, 2021, 12:51:27 PM
Quote from: stavebuyer on April 08, 2021, 12:35:20 PM
I stumbled across the photo looking for something else but thought this topic was a good place to share it.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/25189/20171013_140729.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1617898162)
 

We were feeding bigger blocks through the 6-way wedge and finishing them up into uniform stove wood splits with the kinetic. That loader had a 3 yard bucket and stacked rounded up would yield 1/2 cord. We generally had a waiting list for wood and many customers dropped empty trailers

Now obviously piddling around with firewood doesn't justify that kind of capital investment in a wheel loader. Firewood was a sideline to the log yard which in itself was an offshoot of the sawmill. The blocks mostly came from our being "paid" to upgrade logs that were poorly manufactured to make them into a higher value log. So we either paid to haul off the chunks or processed them it into a very saleable product. If you didn't cut and split you couldn't give it away.

Note the size of the splits coming off the the 6-way wedge; if you are selling stove wood you need a kinetic. We loved boiler wood but sold probably 10-1 of the stove sized splits. Many of our customers were older and really appreciated wood they could handle.

Awesome stuff, we have a similar style! I flip the vertical splitter up and quarter the mosters then pass them to the 4 way splitter and split right into the loader bucket so we handle it the least and the loader does the hard work!
Title: Re: Kinetic splitters and production
Post by: mike_belben on April 08, 2021, 12:53:52 PM
Its always a struggle for me to focus because as youre illustrating.. Once youve set up for one business, youre usually really close to being into another business too.  And if you have enough land, iron, fuel, raw material and laborers you can be running 7 days a week, in dire need of a break from all your success.


So it still takes money to make money and its still feast or famine.  Its only a function of youth that made us think the quips of old timers were dumb and we'd show them a thing or two since they clearly just didnt understand what we understood.  But alas, theres still no free lunch [except for the people on the other end of the tax conveyor]
Title: Re: Kinetic splitters and production
Post by: Upstatewoodchuc on April 08, 2021, 01:23:58 PM
Quote from: mike_belben on April 08, 2021, 12:53:52 PM
Its always a struggle for me to focus because as youre illustrating.. Once youve set up for one business, youre usually really close to being into another business too.  And if you have enough land, iron, fuel, raw material and laborers you can be running 7 days a week, in dire need of a break from all your success.


So it still takes money to make money and its still feast or famine.  Its only a function of youth that made us think the quips of old timers were dumb and we'd show them a thing or two since they clearly just didnt understand what we understood.  But alas, theres still no free lunch [except for the people on the other end of the tax conveyor]
I agree 100%, we must decide at what point enough is enough, but ill admit I'm still young enough and like nice toys so I do find myself working often lol.
Title: Re: Kinetic splitters and production
Post by: stavebuyer on April 08, 2021, 01:59:20 PM
Mike you did nail the analysis. It is both a treadmill and an opportunity. Many times you have no choice but to either quit or expand. The old adage is that you are either growing or going out is one I found to be true and I pretty well downsized myself out. You realize things are all intertwined. Nothing works by itself. You had to have the log yard to feed the mill, and the firewood to optimize the log yard. None would stand alone and all together can consume you.

The upside is you can build equity by buying good equipment instead of paying taxes. The downside is its getting impossible to find people willing get their hands dirty no matter what you pay.
Title: Re: Kinetic splitters and production
Post by: North to Alaska on July 24, 2021, 02:08:56 PM
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/61602/80F2F0C1-3CF2-4234-B1DE-73D620ED1BF5.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1627149404)
  
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/61602/C6C02E5C-93EE-419D-B16D-5C051A75211E.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1627149840)
 I have a k22 from DR equipment. I would recommend going with the Super Split. DR Equipment is not of the best quality...they did replace the motor under warranty and have decent customer service. Motor and splitter was left outside in the rain by the dealer and I believe that was the problem.

Biggest rounds I have done is 20" but it handled it fine (wished I had the bigger one though).Key is getting the biggest "ton equivalent".

The work table is also key. I split the big rounds in half, set half of it off on the side of the work table opposite of me, and proceed to split the other half like beef through a meat slicer. Work your way through it. Don't split your half piece in half again.

Finally, the kinetic is only as fast as you can load it. I back my truck filled high with rounds to the splitter, which is located right next to where I plan to stack. Used a wheelbarrow for a little while before getting smart.

In this way the kinetic is far superior to the hydraulic. I can split a cord in an hour by myself or with one of my kids pushing the rounds closer to me in the truck bed.

I did try a 4-way wedge from DR. It was worthless to me. Slowed me down.

Edit: bit bullish about how quickly I can split a cord. More like an hour and a half.

Also, today I just adjusted a couple of bolts that stop how far the lever is pulled forward. Was having gear grinding problems. The lever was going too far forward and allowing the main rail to come back up off the gears. 
I solved it. It is now like a totally different machine. More power. 
The machine itself is of good quality, the motor is not bad but seen better (replaced once), but I have had to fix stupid stuff that was an assembly issue too many times.