Worst tree form

[Walnut Beast]

I like it 👍

[Southside]

You have to define the parameters for what is considered an "improvement" in todays Loblolly Pine vs the "un-improved" varieties. Does it grow faster?  Yes.  More biomass per year?  Yes.  Branch angle - whatever the ice storms will still snap them off.  The real issue though is what is the true value of that fiber compared to that of older varieties.  I would say the fiber value has actually regressed.  Wider rings, bigger knots, weaker lumber.  Good luck getting clear lumber out of a "mature" Lob today that has been harvested.  Not what I would call an "improvement" in the species overall.   Especially when you consider that SYP was desired for it's strength, not for it's ability to grow Amazon cardboard boxes per acre.  In days gone by Foresters would have culled the SYP that is desired to plant today.  Who or what is really winning here?  

[SwampDonkey]

The woods up here is full of white pines like Woodrow's. In fact there was a big dispute over the location of the 4-lane highway because it was going to run right down one's path. They did relocate the road. But man that pine has about 6 tops starting at about 6 feet up giving it the largest diameter pine status. It's no prize, but hey, it moved a highway. The stuff of legends. :D


As to tree improvement genetics, the last time I talked to those folks, they had only achieved a 3% genetic gain in black spruce. And provenance trials showed that black spruce in NB had superior qualities to those in PEI and NS. Probably because NB is not cut off from the main continent by water bodies.
Optimal tree spacing and age will do a lot for wood strength and knot free rings. The more open and younger the tree, the longer the limbs persist, even if it grows wood faster. We used to think 80 year rotations, that got thrown out the window in the early nineties and they are cutting trees down every 30-40 years. Low quality, low paying wood.

I'll take lumber from these 100 foot old growth red spruce over 40 year old plantation spruce any day. :D The snags are dead fir.

[GRANITEstateMP]

Got a real cherry of a cherry between the house and the road

 

[nativewolf]

That's what I'm talking about @Granitestatemp!  :D  Cherry of a cherry indeed.

[nativewolf]

You have to define the parameters for what is considered an "improvement" in todays Loblolly Pine vs the "un-improved" varieties. Does it grow faster?  Yes.  More biomass per year?  Yes.  Branch angle - whatever the ice storms will still snap them off.  The real issue though is what is the true value of that fiber compared to that of older varieties.  I would say the fiber value has actually regressed.  Wider rings, bigger knots, weaker lumber.  Good luck getting clear lumber out of a "mature" Lob today that has been harvested.  Not what I would call an "improvement" in the species overall.   Especially when you consider that SYP was desired for it's strength, not for it's ability to grow Amazon cardboard boxes per acre.  In days gone by Foresters would have culled the SYP that is desired to plant today.  Who or what is really winning here?  

Well I just mention branch angle.  In Lob they look for sweep, forking, branch size, rust resistance, branch diameter and a few others.   Academic literature says they can push value up 160% from wild stock based on fairly recent studies.  
Lets be honest, you are a craftsman making craftsman grade lumber, it is a great product.  But for treated 2x4 at lowes this junk pine works and it is ...fast and high volume.  
In White Oak, my problem child, I am worried because the wild stock is just so...degraded.  Here in the mid atlantic we've been selectively cutting the WO based on the best traits for centuries with no effort to preserve any.  I can find a stand here or there that's is great but man it is rare.  Almost all of what I see is degraded, stands show multiple instances of selective removals.  We don't go to a herd of cattle and take the smallest slowest growing won't gain weight or give more than a qt of milk a day dairy cows do we?  No, those go to hamburger and we keep pushing for something more...more milk fat, faster growing, healthier, disease resistant..etc  whatever the breeders look for they don't actively try to get less.  It's usually a plan to try to get more or at the least just cull the worst.  In many of our forest the result of the disjunct between managers and owners is that we have ...less.  Every year...less.  So anyway, I have a few more pics of less.  I'm putting together some of "more".

[Oddman]

I'm enjoying this thread nativewolf, and looking forward to the "good" stuff you've got to show. 
I am managing the timber on our farm here in the Ozarks, about 600 acres of hardwood/ERC. Im in my early 30's, the stands have been high-graded or clear-cut depending on terrain since we acquired it back in the 50's/early 60's. We have had sawmills and a firewood operation of varying sizes since owning the land so it has been ridden hard and put away wet if you know what i mean.
It's very interesting seeing the effects of high grading vs clear cuts...also seeing much what you mention of the lack of good WO stock, and the presence of junk specimens. 
I've only been interested/informed about forest management for about 5 years so I havnt made alot of progress yet but am continually cruising/taking inventory of our stock and pulling out junk or atleast trees that are at the point of decline or diminishing return. I will admit the shear amount of forest is daunting. 
Thanks for this thread, please carry on.

[woodroe]

Two White Pines in a row here. Hard to find a 8 ft saw log in either of them.

[nativewolf]

I'm enjoying this thread nativewolf, and looking forward to the "good" stuff you've got to show.
I am managing the timber on our farm here in the Ozarks, about 600 acres of hardwood/ERC. Im in my early 30's, the stands have been high-graded or clear-cut depending on terrain since we acquired it back in the 50's/early 60's. We have had sawmills and a firewood operation of varying sizes since owning the land so it has been ridden hard and put away wet if you know what i mean.
It's very interesting seeing the effects of high grading vs clear cuts...also seeing much what you mention of the lack of good WO stock, and the presence of junk specimens.
I've only been interested/informed about forest management for about 5 years so I havnt made alot of progress yet but am continually cruising/taking inventory of our stock and pulling out junk or atleast trees that are at the point of decline or diminishing return. I will admit the shear amount of forest is daunting.
Thanks for this thread, please carry on.

You really should check out Pioneer forests LLC, there in MO.  Long long history of trying to fix broken forests, what they did is all documented, public, they do extension type stuff.  Great read and they are "local".

[Old Greenhorn]

Two White Pines in a row here. Hard to find a 8 ft saw log in either of them.
.....

Ture, but they have a lot of personality. You know, like that 16 y/o girl your Aunt set you up on a blind date with in High School?  :D :D :D :D :D

[beenthere]

Still feeling sorry for the girl?
:D

[GRANITEstateMP]

Still feeling sorry for the girl?
:D

my aunt sure is  :D

[Old Greenhorn]

Still feeling sorry for the girl?
:D

my aunt sure is  :D

:D :D Now that's funny right there, I don't care who you are. :D :D

[Oddman]

I'm enjoying this thread nativewolf, and looking forward to the "good" stuff you've got to show.
I am managing the timber on our farm here in the Ozarks, about 600 acres of hardwood/ERC. Im in my early 30's, the stands have been high-graded or clear-cut depending on terrain since we acquired it back in the 50's/early 60's. We have had sawmills and a firewood operation of varying sizes since owning the land so it has been ridden hard and put away wet if you know what i mean.
It's very interesting seeing the effects of high grading vs clear cuts...also seeing much what you mention of the lack of good WO stock, and the presence of junk specimens.
I've only been interested/informed about forest management for about 5 years so I havnt made alot of progress yet but am continually cruising/taking inventory of our stock and pulling out junk or atleast trees that are at the point of decline or diminishing return. I will admit the shear amount of forest is daunting.
Thanks for this thread, please carry on.

You really should check out Pioneer forests LLC, there in MO.  Long long history of trying to fix broken forests, what they did is all documented, public, they do extension type stuff.  Great read and they are "local".

Ya know, i actually have been on their website but its been a couple years or more, thanks for the reminder

[Southside]

SYP dimensional lumber has been downgraded for span too, so it's not just me. 

[woodroe]

Two White Pines in a row here. Hard to find a 8 ft saw log in either of them.
.....

Ture, but they have a lot of personality. You know, like that 16 y/o girl your Aunt set you up on a blind date with in High School?  :D :D :D :D :D

There are some similarities with all the curves and all.

[thecfarm]

woodroe, I did have a lot of trees like that. But add on another 2 feet across. Had many an easy 3 feet across. Many could not even get an 8 foot log out of, without a crotch in it. But Irving was desperate for pallet pine grade. This grade they cut out the bad and dovetail it.
Yes we sold them some crotch wood. 
I was cutting with my Father on the land I have now. My Father was born in 1923 and could not believe the "junk" they bought. As soon as the trucker convinced him they would buy it, we chased down every ugly tree we had. As my Father said, you can sell good logs any time.
This was when the pay was pretty good, twice what pulp was paying. We was doing the cutting, so we got all the money. We even would haul out the limbs too. Many was more than 4 inches across.
We only had a tractor, so getting rid of the big limbs made it easier to get around he slash.
Most trees were 80 years old.

[woodroe]

Good you got rid of that stuff when you did.
Can't give it away around here today. Pine pulp $2.50 -$5.00 ton .
Might as well burn it.

[thecfarm]

I meant to say this was '93-96.
They still buy pallet grade, but it's the same price as pulp.

[Ianab]

Here's a little Port Orford Cedar in the local park.  I'm thinking it's had a pretty traumatic life  :D

 

[Walnut Beast]

Not exactly a poster black walnut 

 

[woodroe]

A couple more funky looking Pines on the back 40 but that 
one in the middle is straight as can be .



 

[Peter Drouin]

I have W Pines around here with the 2 to 4 stems. All done by a bug a weble I know I did not spell that right.
They eat the top sprout, then the next branch takes over and goes up.

[sprucebunny]

Loop-de-loop



 

My other choice for worst form: beech.

[cutterboy]

Another tree confused as to which way to grow.