Chainsaw fellers / manual workers disappearing

[livemusic]

Modern forestry practices use very large felling machines; the guy with a chainsaw is disappearing. When baby boomers are gone, there won't be anyone left, more or less, with felling skills. What negative impacts do you foresee this as having on forestry and woodlot landowners?

For instance, let's say there is a woodlot owner who had necessary skills but has reached an age where, for safety reasons or just not wanting to work so hard, he no longer wants to use his chainsaw skills to fell trees for firewood, thinning or timber stand improvement or land-clearing now and then. He is willing to pay someone to do it. Who's going to do it? Loggers with the big equipment won't because the job is too small; it's too much hassle to move the equipment. As for hiring a skilled feller, they are disappearing.

On top of that, it just seems like people just do not want to work like they used to. Manual labor... I tell ya... around here, it's dang hard to find anyone to work. At anything. Even routine, little-skill-required yardwork. I guess that is why everybody and his brother who ARE willing to work are forming lawncare businesses.

On a sidenote, I recall when I was a kid, there was a young fella just out of high school who cut my dad's yard for $5. With a non-propelled push mower. I own this place now. It's 1.2 acres that I mow myself with my zero turn these days, lol. I dunno how much it would cost to get a yard crew but if it's $100, it wouldn't surprise me. An inflation calculator shows that $5 in 1965 is $43 today.

You guys are the experts, just curious what problems you foresee.

[mike_belben]

its a problem for everyone else.  i see it as a chance to be the first to make the prototype machines that replace humans at cost effective TSI.  then sell the manufacturing licenses to the big fish. because the last thing anyone wants to do anymore is break a sweat.  they want to swipe a card for a $40k machine to shovel the walkway.   hey suit yourself.  ill take your money and retire, you stay at work paying the zero interest notes til you croak.

[Tacotodd]

But Mike, come on now. You KNOW that there is something that should be said (in a good way & job) for a good & honest individual. However few & far between we are. 

I see your point, and honesty WILL trump everything else. Because if you'll lie to me, you'll steal from me. Those 2 things almost always go hand in hand.

[mike_belben]

But Mike, come on now. You KNOW that there is something that should be said (in a good way & job) for a good & honest individual. However few & far between we are.

I see your point, and honesty WILL trump everything else. Because if you'll lie to me, you'll steal from me. Those 2 things almost always go hand in hand.

???  

I have no idea what other people's debt has to do with me lying or stealing from anyone dude.  People can do whatever they want with their money.  Proverbial "they" seem to be choosing to spend more than they'll ever make and it is of no consequence to my bottom line.  Neither does this observation have any credible implications on my integrity.    :

[Tacotodd]

I'm not saying ANYTHING about your integrity, AT ALL! 

I'm only talking about MY personal experience with people that I'VE met FACE TO FACE. 

My post was never pointing a finger at you. That's not what I intended for you to read into. 

[mike_belben]

okay, well my apologies then.  why don't we get back on track. 

[mudfarmer]

Some double edged swords at play, too.

Around here you used to be able to let people cut firewood on your place in exchange for the wood. That meant thinning and TSI that you didn't have to pay for or work for.

Now you will probably get sued if you let some random neighbor cut on your place and if you are the guy that wants to cut, the landowner wants you to have $millions in liability coverage :D

Then you peek at the "delimber" thread that just got posted, the workman's comp issues, the payroll issues, insurance issues, companies going all mech, production quotas, higher production requirements to pay for mechanization, where is the incentive for people to learn the skills necessary for manual labor jobs such as running a chainsaw all day without dying? At this point they are probably better off playing video games so they can learn how to run a feller buncher or a robot delimber.

[timberking]

We haven't had a saw guy for a long time.  #1 they aren't out there and #2 the chance we got caught and lost our mechanized insurance rating.

[Southside]

Started my first business in 2004, finding help was a problem then, now it's impossible.  Absolutely impossible to find folks who will work - and I don't mean sweat shop - can make a decision, have problem solving skills, and enough mechanical skills to know when to shut something off at a minimum, oh and actually care about what one is doing - have ownership in ones work - fuggetabout it...

[Sugar]

Didn't you get the memo?  Seems like it went 30-40 years ago.  Everyone's child is extra special and will grow to be an extra special genius.  Manual labor would just be depriving society of their specialness.   We have lost at least 2 but probably 3 generations of hard working Americans at this point.  

[BargeMonkey]

I dropped another loggers dozer off in Lanesville last night, just thru the notch around the corner from Hunter Mt, the type of ground that will give most men sickness just standing on the landing. GOOD handcutters are around and in demand. We have 17 on payroll, no one has to explain to me how hard help is to find 😆

 We don't have a "logger" shortage here but your seeing the transition to mechanical, grapple skidders are common now. The biggest killer to the little guy isn't the help, its the insurance. Foresters don't really want to see the little iron, these state jobs aren't geared for it, landowners dont want me there 6 months, pulpmill doesn't want to hear that you only can do 1-2ld a week, how im seeing the little guy go away here unless your cutting GOOD hardwood for the mills. 

[SW Oh Logger]

I almost don't know where to start with this without writing a book. Everything that has been said about the lack of work ethic, changing society, lazy paid-not-to work generations, less demand for quality and responsibility on the job and pride in workmanship, all of these statments are so true. However, I chose to do this, as hard, dangerous and misunderstood as it can be--this appealed to me, there is a place for the little man who does good, honest work and has a good work ethic. My Dad taught me how to work, not to always like it. later. I felt the challenge to always do my best. Like Barge said, in good wood, with a good reputation, and hard work there is a place for smaller, hand cutting guys. My bother who is 63 and I at 72 in just a few days, cut 45 walnut trees in six part days sub-contracting for the landowner, to cut, and help him sell the logs. 170 logs @ 16,000 plus bd.ft. brought $57,000 plus. pick your spots, work hard, don't give up. Sometimes you've just got to want to do this more than anything else. I've cut now for going on 42 years, it's a great life if you don't weaken!

[Cruiser_79]

I don't know the situation overseas, but over here it is not only a problem that people don't want to work anymore. It looks like everything is getting more expensive, inclusive labour. A man with a chainsaw will cost a company >30-40 euros an hour. The man his self won't see that amount, only 1/3th of it if he is lucky. 2/3 is insurance and taxes. When the guy get sick or injured it will cost the company loads of money. Employees get paid, even if they are ill, injured or sick. Machines won't get sick, and can be leased quite cheap and most of the times have a higher production.  My grandfather was contractor, in the 50's  and 60's labour was relatively cheap, and building materials expensive. They were cleaning bricks from cement to save money, and denailed wooden beams to re use all of it. Nowadays it's much cheaper too throw everything away and buy everything new. Just to make clear how the cost of labour changed... And still people think they are better for the environment than people 50 years ago  :

But indeed, younger people are getting less motivated to do manual work. I know guys of my age that are doing manual labour and don't want to be in an office at all. But it is a fact that the younger generation will get more office jobs. Sometimes I think it's some kind of strategy, to make the western countries a kind of knowledge based economy, not a making/building economy. 

[Ianab]

If you were advising your kid on a career choice, would you point them at swinging a chainsaw, or operating computerised heavy machinery?  Both require skill, but which has more long term employment prospects? 

All the large operations here have gone with heavy machinery, mostly due to labour and Accident Insurance issues. Forestry work is inherently dangerous, and if someone is badly hurt or killed on the job Worksafe is all over it. Was the guy trained properly? Did he have all the safety gear? Was there a hazard ID procedure?  If you have A: less bodies on the job, and B: they are sitting in armoured cabs, then the companies risk of an injury accident is way less, and your defence is that you did take all practical measures to keep them safe.

There is still the place for chainsaw work, as there are lots of smaller harvests of little forestry blocks scattered over farms, and skidder / bulldozer / excavator works out best. But forestry machinery operator is one of the jobs that foreigners can easily get a work permit for.(not enough trained operators here).  

The newest machinery for steep ground harvesting is being operated remotely. The operator isn't even in the cab, he's operating remotely via video link to the actual machine, If something goes wrong and the harvester tumbles 1,000 feet down into a gorge, he's safe. X-Box experience is probably an advantage here.  :'(

[thecfarm]

I work in a hardware store, we get lots of help in their early 20's. Most have a hard time with the alphabet, can't make change without the cash register telling them how much and some have a hard time counting the change back to the customer. 
I am not a brain but basic math and the alphabet I can do easy.
We do a change round up for a dog shelter and 4H. Most can not think how much 43¢ is to be rounded up to a dollar.
My favorite thing is giving a clerk $11 when it come up to $5.65 to get a 5 dollar bill back.  They try to give me the dollar back, saying I gave them too much money. I have to tell them to take it and put it in I want a 5 dollar bill back instead of all the ones. They look at me odd and again I tell them the same thing and than when they do it, they light up and go Oh Yea!!
But as said, it's hard to find help that can be on time each day and not call out once every 2 weeks.
I have a brother that things he works so hard growing up. His kids are not going to work like that. I am still doing the work that I did when I was growing up.

[Kim_Ked]

OKAY>> 
I'm going to play the devils advocate here for a moment....
The younger folks referred to in this thread are all a product of their environment! Who created the environment they grow up in? Right, the very people who think they are useless, as true as that may seem.  
I am a bit younger, I'm just shy of 40. My Dad is almost 70. He can work circles around me. Literally. I get 2 tanks into the saw and my back is done. I don't mean tired, I mean spasming and broken. He can do six and only feel a bit tired. Its not because I have poor work ethic. Its simply because Iv been encouraged since I was younger to learn computers, engineering. I had video games in front of me since I was 4. Naturally, I would take to electronics and eventually lead me to a career in Automation for Industrial machines. I sit 45 plus hours a week now for the last 20 years! Plus driving and sitting on the toilet!  Do I enjoy it? the work yes, the sitting no. I hate it, I loath it most days and it really gets to me sometimes. I desperately wish to be outside, working with my Dad on our little forestry operation where we use saws and a harvester depending on he application. No matter what the job of the day is, its more active than what I do now. However, forestry will never pay me what Automation does, nor would it even support my family, currently, its just a little side gig that I hope can take off someday. Furthermore, its getting harder and harder to do our thing with the cost of insurance, fuel, stumpage and every other factor. 
I used to be a stronger when I was a younger guy, dragging Christmas trees and doing odd construction jobs here and there, cutting a bit of pulp wood, wiring houses and such. Nothing that ever paid enough to be able to buy a house or truck. An old beat up tempo or tercel was best I could do. I did it at the time, but it wasn't sustainable and I had to learn something to pay me better. I couldn't fathom working now for minimum wage, which here is just under 13$/HR. I could not buy gas and lunch let alone a house to live in. I don't expect anybody else to do it either for a living, I do figure some do it simply for the enjoyment of it. If they are able to in their situations. I do envy the older folks here that say they have spent their lives in the woods, on their farms and being big strong people, but the reality is, a person will starve now on labor rates. A persons commodities are nearly worthless now, I have 100 acre Pople lot that isn't worth a cent and many large fields that do nothing now, I don't have the knowledge to make them anything more, nor the time to invest in them.
Step to the next generation now. My kid is addicted to electronics, computers and video games far worse than I ever was.  He is "interested" in the heavy equipment, mechanics and electronics, but not enough and I literally struggle with getting him to move on the daily and I fear for his future more so than I fear for my own next 30 years health wise. Everything he sees, everyday, at school, on the radio, his friends, its all games and directing them to the internet for everything. The school activities are on the internet. The virtual tours. It never ends! There is 0 emphasis on physical exertion or hard work. I bet most of you grew up working with your families on farms and wood lots, I did to somewhat when I was a kid. Sure now, my boy helps me split wood or chores I ask him to do, but ultimately, other then sending him out to go for a walk with the dog while I'm at work, I don't know how to get him doing more. How can I call him lazy? He is simply a product of his environment!

Have you have ever seen the movie called Wallie? Its about a robot that is guarding the last plant known to a future human civilization that survives on a spaceship during the apocalypse. These people are huge, shorter arms and legs, as they don't really need them anymore. The robots do everything for the humans, they don't even walk. Sadly, I think there is more truth to the concept of this movie than we know.

[Tacotodd]

You've hit the nail on the head!!!!

[dukethebeagle]

I find the problem is we dont start kids working young enough.
Instead,parent worry about soccer practice,weekend ski trips,whatever.
If you pay everything till there in there 20s.there not gonna want to do much.
Back in the day kids left home and got a job.
Now parents keep them around so they dont aquire school dept.
Gonna have a society of bureacrats with everything made in china
Really headed down the wrong way towards self suffieciency

[Skeans1]

I'm one of the "younger" guys that falls timber been doing it the better part of 15 years with 10 years of 6 days a week straight and I'm only 32. The biggest hurdle is. A the wood is just getting smaller with a quicker rotation so they get less waste they say. B fuel and insurance between the two will kill you where most of your day is spent just paying for those two things. C if the ground can be cut by a machine and the wood can be why would you allow a guy to be on the ground? 

[mike_belben]

the dollar being slowly and steadily ruined is at the heart of all these issues.  the costs continually rise, the margins continually shrink, the regulations continually expand.  

its an accepted truth, that there are "two ways to enslave a nation, by the sword and by debt."  well we know we arent being enslaved in open combat, but if you cant see the debt slavery then youre a fool. it is coordinated and calculated. i took action to get off the dollar when my awareness grew around 2010-12.  taking what i had then and converting it into real assets .. literally just a big hardware store in boxes in a cash-bought field with low taxes and few regs, is the only thing that allows us to do well now and it would be so much harder to be starting it now.. so dont wait.  it only gets harder with time.   we are doing well on a single $13/hr income...  and thats a medical job with an associates degree and 20 years experience.  that whole climb the ladder concept is a pure lie here.  theres no ladder to climb unless you own the ladder and exploit other people's debt leverage, paying them just enough to show up.  and i say that exploit part lightly.  it isnt the ladder owners fault if someone else is broke and takes a job offer at market rate.  matthew 20 gives us God's opinion about it. all he cares about is that the employer and employee honor their agreements.. not that you had a collective bargaining agent get you the best deal and "fair" blah blah blah.  fair is suffering for your mistakes, and not someone elses.  when government makes everything fair they are simply distributing a more equal misery to all.


the country is being conquered by decree, insurance, and money printing.  the only way you can fight it is to be out of debt, collect things that retain their value and utility without expiration, and not having anything nice enough to need insurance.  it is a very abnormal life for anyone born in the USA after vietnam.  or should i say the USSA?


as for the kids work ethic.. i dunno. i am doing the very best i can but television is a problem.  i am extreme about limiting it or taking it away but theyre already addicted to watching youtube vids as soon as i turn my back.  you can make literally millions of dollars by youtubing your minecraft or nerf wars sessions with absolutely no talent so it is very hard to tell a child that you wont make money playing games. you are lying to them.. it might be the most potential they will ever have.  but who knows what the new stupid jackpot will be in a decade.  its not possible to know how to set them up for future success anymore because someone keeps moving the cheese.

mine will not have smart phones until they buy them with after-tax dollars of their own, im not doing it.. flip phone at best and im holding off as long as i can on that. but every other 10yr old has an Iphone even if they live in a trailer it seems.. and you cant stop your kid from seeing porn on a phone of some other kids on the bus.  thats the biggest issue.. youve lost control and the ability to shelter them.   the only thing the school is teaching them is about racism.  racism and a funny math that makes absolutely no sense at all. i can sense the reprogramming that nashville is dictating and if it werent for the needed socialization, i would take them out of school completely.   the crap theyre learning is worthless, except how to behave around strangers and deal with crowds without anxiety.  


as for my family. we are free and can stay free without a handout if we avoid the pitfalls.  money has become a false wealth, if your assets were cash based they cut in half just in 2019/20 from a near doubling of the M2 money supply, so im glad i didnt have any to lose, it was already converted to stable storage.  throw in a stock market collapse at some point and a lot of life savings will evaporate.  but bloomberg and the wall street journal arent training people to see if their souls are content or if their marriages and relationships are intact.  they train us to measure all things in dollars.. that are becoming worthless anyway.  i make certain that i have few dollars because they are continually leaking.  if you had a car that peed out motor oil, would you fill it on friday to leak all over the driveway until empty monday morning? you fill the minimum until you can replace the car.. to me the car in that analogy is the wealth storage vehicle, the currency.


 i havent left the yard in a week, money disappears if i go to town so its best to stay home and chip away at the homestead where value is created instead of expended.  make machine, collect resource, run resource through machine, build lasting physical asset from resource, avoid debt.

[moodnacreek]

Handle design has changed for the worst. Shovels, rakes, most any hand tool today is not for all day use because nobody does.

[snobdds]

Our young men are getting soft, all young men under the age of 25 have grown up with the internet their entire lives.  They are wired differently now as their curiosity is driven by internet things instead of being outside and playing in their fathers garage discovering things.  These boys can wiz their way around technical things, but outside of that...their confused.  They are losing the ability to do things with their hands.  

Boys need to get off the internet and back outside breaking and fixing thing. 

[DonW]

Handle design has changed for the worst. Shovels, rakes, most any hand tool today is not for all day use because nobody does.

Now that is an interesting and pertinent observation. I've been having no end of grief finding decent hay fork, shovel etc... handles not to mention axe handles since leaving a collection of self-preped billets behind. It's not like it was when you'd think ahead and plant your ash around the property anticipating a regular need for keeping tools in condition and then making them to suit yerself. At the same time these overly bulky handels available at the farm store, we won't even go into fiberglass, they're yet another example of a loss of refinement brought on by, for one thing poor working practices and this ever creeping tendency to over engineer, the engineering mind having a disconnection from actual working conditions. 

[Kim_Ked]

i havent left the yard in a week, money disappears if i go to town so its best to stay home and chip away at the homestead where value is created instead of expended.  make machine, collect resource, run resource through machine, build lasting physical asset from resource, avoid debt.

I like what you said here Mike. I struggle personally with most of what you say here in regards to balancing finances, kids, time in the constant struggle to become debt free and own my house / equipment, plus also, my 8 year old also thinks he has a bright future on you tube.   We don't even have internet available at our house yet!
You did say that you haven't left your yard in a week. I envy that. I often only get a few busy hours playing catch up at home a week and always on call for the next production world daily disaster.
 I'm paid well for the constant interruptions, but realizing after years of this constant on call foolishness and disappointed family when plans always fall through that money isn't everything. However, being reliable for my boss and showing 110% at my job is also important to me. 
I'm keen on getting to the , zero debt, own my equipment and stockpile of hardware/parts. I'm literally 2-3 months away from owning everything I have with one final repair being made to my excavator that is going to cost anything!  Iv started contracting it out to a local mill with my Dad as an operator. It barely will pay for itself and may not cover repairs but my Dad will make decent money and I'm hoping to build a relationship with the customer that might turn into something more. I would love to get out of the 365 day/yr. production noise. Spend some time in the woods, some time at home and try to do more with my boy. Teaching him about things besides the internet. The world seems though to make this a dream and not a reality, I know I have a part in this as well, but my own thing just wont take off enough to parts ways with the daily grind to focus and build on it more. I know it will someday, just keep at it.

[Will.K]

This thread has my mind whirling in a lot of directions. I don't have the skill to consicely articulate them. The trends you all are talking about are real, and negative, and cannot change without the absolute demolition of current society. But there are things we can individually do if we value the health and happiness and wholeness of our friends and children. I am 32, and not a perfect example, but I do feel like an outlier of sorts that demonstrates several things.

I enjoy manual labor and am proficient in many areas. I work hard, often, and the benefits are physical, emotional, phycological, spiritual, and practical. I have never borrowed money, have never had a house or car payment or credit card bill. I have avoided addictions to money, pornography, industrial sports and entertainment, garbage food, tobacco and other drugs, politics, social media, shopping, video games, and have overcome addictions to coffee and youtube. I work for money as little as possible, and work for myself and my neighbors and friends as much as possible. I travel constantly if not exceptionally widely, and try to spend time every day in looking and learning. I have my share of troubles, but compared to the popular lifestyle I certainly feel that mine is healthier, and more rewarding and productive to myself and the people around me.

That list is not meant to be self-congratulatory. I deserve credit for very little if any of my merits. My parents do. Someone mentioned this earlier. The example, not the preaching or whining or scolding, the example of parents is essential. My dad was and is a manual laborer, building mostly fences and barns. He took me to work with him from the time I was five or six. I was allowed to play, but expected to work too. My younger brother and I learned skills and ethics from watching him work, helping him work, and mimicking his work in our play. We used to scour the shed or the floorboards of the truck in search of stray nails to drive. Sometimes we would snatch nails he needed for a job. We drove so many nails into a big old stump that there was no place left to drive them. By the time he was seven my brother could pound nails like a man. We went into the woods and worked together all day, cutting little trees to build structures, digging ditches to divert the creeks into ponds we had built. Building dams. Building fences and rock walls and trails and bridges. By the time we were ten and twelve we worked for dad all through the summer as genuine partners in his labor. We knew what to do and how to do it. A recent topic here about chainsaw safety reminded me of an episode when a customer rushed out of his house and gave dad an awful scolding because we weren't yet teenagers and were running the chainsaw. We were paid for our work, and never given a penny of money as a gift or allowance. My mother taught us to cook and many other domestic skills. She and dad taught us a household economy that met our needs efficiently and fully.

My mom and dad taught us to read and write and basic arithmetic well before sending us off to first grade. They quickly realized that the school education was worse than worthless and after third grade I never went back. They taught us how to learn, how to study, how to observe and ask questions, how to analyze and evaluate. They taught us to love the natural world our fellow man. My parents understood what was important and taught us by example. They were not typical of most parents of their generation. They were not hypocrites, they were not lazy, and they were not cowards.

And now it seems to me that the godawful incompetence and ignorance and laziness and uselessness of young people comes directly from some combination of parental ignorance, hypocrisy, laziness, and cowardice. It is your own fault people. Not the fault of the devalued dollar, not the fault of predatory advertising, not the fault of the lousy schools, not the fault of a society that runs on addiction and narcissism and consumption, not the fault of mechanized labor. Any one of us can stand up to all these evils and more. It is your fault. 

Teach your children and grandchildren by example. Be a good example to your friends and neighbors. Don't be a coward. If "no" is the right thing to say, say it. And be kind to all these incompetent kids. No matter how shocking their lack of skills and values, they deserve love and help and sympathy, not disdain. Do what you can for them.