Poll: Acres for America

[Ron Wenrich]

Expires 5-8-05

[Jeff]

It makes no difference to me. The way I look at it, its purely another marketing gimic to try to humanize a very large corporation. Certainly there is potentially a good side, but that is incidental. The reason it is being done, at least in my mind, is the bottom line. Trying to give the consumer that warm and fuzzy feeling towards something they are involved in.

I guess time will tell how this program evolves. It will be interesting how it is ran, actually runs it and what benefits this "conservancy" gives and to who.

[Cedarman]

So they use 100 acres for a building and parking lot and they conserve 100 acres.  They buy 100 acres of scrub land for 500 bucks an acre and set it aside. Lots of advertisement for 50 grand a store and makes them look good.
What if they donated  a couple 100 grand a year to the state park system for upkeep?
Cheap gimmick.

[Chris J]

This program doesn't make me feel any better about the affect WM has on local Mom & Pop shops, their policy of using lots of part time workers to avoid providing benefits to full time workers, the lies about Made In America products,  & the ripple effects of their policy of squeezing manufactorers for the lowest possible price.

Also, lately they seem to be spending a lot of $$ on 'why you should feel good about Walmart' ads.  Makes me even more suspicious than I was before.    Yes, WM provides discount prices, but at what overall cost?

[EZ]

Sounds like another big tax cut for them.
EZ

[Kirk_Allen]

Walmart, No way would it make a difference. 

Lowes or Home Depot, might make a difference.

I HATE WALMART!  They have pushed out more local business owners in our area than you can imagine.  The part that really sucks is that they are now the ONLY grocery store for 40 miles in any direction. 

[pigman]

Makes me feel " warm and fuzzy" just thinking about it. :

[DanG]

Makes no diff to me.  Good ad gimmick, but sounds like an empty promise to me.  I'm no Walmart fan, but they ain't the problem.  I'd as soon buy Chinese products from them as anybody. :-\

[etat]

Truer words, DanG, Truer Words.  :-\


I got my new tires on the back of my the old John Deere.  Ten ply and a size bigger than what was on the back of it.  I did have 15.5 by 38 six ply and I replaced em with 16.9 by 38 ten ply.  Rated of course. I 'wanted' a set of firestone radials but I discovered they were both 'unavailable until further notice', and even if they were they was gonna be way way more than I wanted to afford.  So I priced a set of regular R1 tires from em, still way expensive.  'So, I ordered em from DC tire. I noticed the dangest thing when I was looking at em in person.  Never even thought to ask when I ordered em.  Didn't even enter my mind.  'Made in China'.  Hundreds of dollars less than the Firestones and still good looking tires.

They did not come from Walmart.

[Fla._Deadheader]

  Sam Walton started the business with good intentions. AS SOON AS THEY COULD VOTE HIM OUT, THE DIRTY DEEDS BEGAN.

  Marketing plan and nothing else. Same as the Eco-nutz and animal lover societies. Buy land cheap, under the guise of humanity, and then, sell at a high profit, later on.  Can't remember the biggest named scam right now. Too much on my mind.

[bull]

Better get the boots out folks !!  They will be building on good ground farmland or forest land and then they will save a swamp.....or other non productive rock pile..
Houses are eating up all our good land here and they are starting to run out and now are building in locatiopns that weren't buildable 5 years ago !! And all the builder are giving the surrounding wetland and ecosensitive area's to our Conservation Commission,and the other members think this is great. Horse****!!
Vernal Fools *( not misspelled)*...... Save our open space say no to malls and force cluster zoning for housing.... Nothing wrong with a trailer park especially in a bedroom community......  Save the local stores and mom and pops. Support local economy......  And if you ain't from here don't move here. We do allow visit's and vacations, bring your wallets we can empty them and keep your money!!!   Thanks
sorry for ranting !!!   Down w/ Walmart,Homecheapo,Lowes,and any other not so super 2nd store......   Its cheaper because its junk minimum standard.......

[gary]

It is just a crock of dung, This is in responce to all the negative press they have been getting from the smarter towns and cities trying to keep them out of their area. I will shop at Wal Mart but only for items I can not get from a locally owned store. KEEP YOUR DOLLARS IN YOUR OWN AREA WHEN EVER POSSIBLE

[Gunny]

I guess no one around here shops WalMArt--at least the slant of the responses indicates so. 

Frankly, I'd just as soon WalMart bought all the wetlands on the planet and placed them in a conservancy before watching them (the wetlands) be destroyed by the very few idle rich who feel they can make them more "productive" by backfilling them and building condos on them.  Wetlands are amongst our most important ecosystems, aren't they?

This discussion could quickly lose track of the issues: who else is going to do it?  I'm linked with the USDA's "Back Yard Conservation" program--now that we've sold the tree farm--and firmly believe that if we don't reverse the plunder-and-pillage approach so often used, our kids and grandkids may well miss the opportunity to enjoy some of the natural pleasures which should remain their heritage. 

Maybe the active members of this forum should band together to follow the lead of those participants who at least make a seemingly viable effort to effect change.  I've been chopping at timber over 30 years and have hunted and fished for most of the last 50. I'm neither a "tree-hugger" or a member of PETA.  But I've certainly witnessed the devastation which greed can bring upon what were once pristine lands. 

Whether the bad guys of this world are wearing designer silks or CarHarts, it's always a good thing to stand against destruction.  After all, when the few take all the timber there is left to be had, just about everytbody within this forum will be sitting home wondering what happened.  Here in west-central Michigan, the scores of ghost-towns ring that bell so very true.  Just a hundred years ago, or so, had anybody had the brains or the courage to mention that there might not be any White Pine left for the plundering, those jobs and families and pioneer-types might have been able to stay put on their lands.  Instead, once the resources were plucked, the barons sat and counted their $$ while the towns and villages went belly-up.  Of course, the passing of several generations does allow for a certain amount of "reforestation." 

If StuffMart would like to place our wetlands into their conservancy--provided they could never be modified, sold, or transferred without my signed approval--I'd be delighted to let them pick up the tax burden we now bear to help in whatever way we can to provide that small safe haven to those who choose to use it.   It's a legacy my wife and I can not ignore.

Again, rather than use our energies to berate a major corporation, why not investigate ways we can each work, individually or collectively, to make this Earth a better place to be for all inhabitants.

[redpowerd]

i dont shop there merely due to the music they play and the fact its a treasure hunt looking for prices on items.

good points there gunny.

id say wallyworld soaks up about 20-40 acres a store. what burns me is when they build them in cornfeilds.

how many stores wallyworld got?

[Tom]

Part of the response, I'm sure, has to do with "trust".  I'm not talking about the kind where you save some of your stuff for later generations.  I'm talking about the kind that allows you to turn your back on someone with whom you just shook hands.

So many of these  "feel good" conservation/preservation  efforts are forgotten later when the company or the country undergoes an administration change or someone comes along with enough money to over-ride the rules.  It's kinda like when your Great-Granddad planted the garden on the side of the house so that the family could have fresh vegetables.  Then your Granddaddy parked his truck there and your daddy "beautified" it and planted grass.  Now, you've just sold it to man that wants to build a house.  No body is considering what Great-Granddaddy intended for the property.

Just wait a few years and all this phony Wet-lands" mitigation bank stuff will get robbed and the Forests that were "saved" from the mill will be developed as condominiums by the same families that are sitting in the trees.

Wall Mart doesn't fool me.  They are just advertising. :D :D

I guess I'm turning into a cynic. :-\

[Buzz-sawyer]

As i read your post two thoughts come to mind
One, the Barrons your speak despairingly, lobbied congress, got aproval made deals bought land , exploited its resources, pretty much completly inside of the laws laid down  which we all live by .....Times change gold runs out timber is cut cities move.....all over this country.....Does that mean the ghost towns in Colorado are a sign of exploitation of resources (Silver)....??????

The second thought is, when you said,"But I've certainly witnessed the devastation which greed can bring upon what were once pristine lands. "
The only way for these types of things to stop occuring is for HUMAN nature to change...and it will not in this life.
I am all for big trees , I like to look at them.........And I like parks and reserves, but I believe we are here to be stewards of the earth who take from  it, with respect
I guess I am just not in agreement with the whole concept of, ANTI greed =making money,
fat cats, corprate is bad socialistic thing....It rings of class envy and scape goating.........

I view it as a wonderful dream to be American....... to be able to legally buy property and do what you like with it..hopefully that includes improvement....but maybe thats the next owner who will no doubt buy at a discount :D :D

[Jeff]

I dont see anyone here denying that conserving nature is a bad thing, long as that is actually what is being done. The question at hand was will it change the way I patronize Walmart stores. Nope. It won't. All it does now is make me suspect thier motives. Its all based on the buck, not on what is right,  from a social and envinmental point of view

Ask me again 20 years from now.

[Gunny]

Tom:  

Actually, doesn't the word "cynic" mean a good thing when translated from the old Greek?  I remember (I hope!) reading somewhere not too long ago that the word actually means "One who sees things as they are."  Most of the negative surrounding the use of the term these days is that an awful lot of folks don't like to know or hear from those who "see things as they are."  

I try very hard to find that tiny glimmer of hope for humankind but often "see" things--mostly through recorded accounts of history and personal life-experiences-much as you seem to do.  We've recently acquired several properties that not long ago had been big parts of an elder's dreams but were abandoned to rot and crumble by those heirs who'd been left to care for them.  

You're right on regarding "trust", much the same as those who said "trust me/us" on the 401Ks and State Education Funds, Union retirement pensions/health care, etc.  But that still doesn't deter me from trying what little I can to make this a better place to be.

You and I could probably share a zillion experiences each which could justify our abilities to "see things as they are."  But it all comes down to this for me: do i want to join ranks with those who destroy or do I not?  Two of the most notable structures I ever built back in the '70s (one of our geodesic domes and our octagonal log cabin) were bulldozed into pits because the absentee owners got tired of paying the property taxes on them but wanted to hold onto the land they'd been put on--honest!

Again, I'm glad to meet another "see-r".  Never any harm in trying, though.

[Buzz-sawyer]

I think in 20 years walmart will be GONE the same place K-Mart went and its discount predecessors..They are slowly letting go of Sams customer service values for the bottom line, and soon a new %%%_Mart will out SERVICE and discount them out of the market.
If that happens you WILL see some condos. ;)

[Jeff]

My point taken.

Walmart is a private company. That may or may be here in the future. Now, if you tell me that Walmart is buying property and turning it over to the parks service where it will be a national protected resource and not a corporate asset I may be less cynical. I am using the word here as it is used in our language of today, not for its root origin.

[Jeff]

Buzz, K-mart is still here. :D 

[Buzz-sawyer]

 :D :D :D :D
Well, I guess my point is weakened by that :D :D :D :D :D
Thats funny, They have been choked out all together in this area.

[Chris J]

Re things going downhill after they voted out Sam Walton.  Didn't some of the stories about the Made In America lies come out when SW still had some say at WM?  And wasn't WM killing off local shops long before SW was reduced to a figurehead?

Maybe if WM was my only convenient choice, or I had house full of kids to look after, I might feel differently.  If WM is doing something good for the environment I'm all for it, but it's not going change my overall negative view of WM.

[OneWithWood]

I agree with Jeff.  If Walmart were to publish management plans for those properties I would be more inclined to believe there to be some sincerity for natural habitat and resource management.  Absent that it is just another investment in land that happens to have a tax advantage and allows them to fill current biologically active wetlands to build a store.  They can do this under the latest rendition of the wetlands act if they set aside another property as a wetland, regardless if it is biologically active or just a storm drainage.  
I don't shop at Walmart because I hate big stores where you can't find anything and the service staff are clueless.

[Rockn H]

Why did yall have to mention Wal-Mart.  It gets me worked up. >:(  I heard trust mentioned and was always taught trust should be earned, not given.  I know and I'am glad for the "American Way" - to start a business, to succeed.  But if you look at the way they do business, the way they "Take Over" a smaller company and keep selling the products under the original name, the net is full of news articles with these stories, it makes it hard to trust.  Look at all the small towns that are dead except for a new wal-mart outside of town and a small strip mall.  Like I said earlier, to succeed is good, but look at their tactics.  A corporation large enough to cut their prices until they have starved the smaller stores out and then raise their prices back to regular price.  Not to mention they then carry only what products the head office deems fit.  I can't tell you how many times, now, we have to go out of town to buy what we used to be able to get here.  This also makes it hard for me to trust their motives or their agenda.  This is all just really fresh on my mind, as we just got us a new Super Center outside of town, complete with red light and all.  The hardline and softline part of the store carries less than the old store, but the grocery side is fully stocked with its own bakery. Our grocery stores are about to go under.  Funny thing is, no one will say they buy groceries at wal mart. ???  With that said, setting aside land, any land, is a good thing.  It's just not enough to justify the means for me.

[Buzz-sawyer]

RH
I believe everthing about walmarts strategies you said is true.. ;)
(and a whole lot more you did not).
But here is my BIG question, Why worry about it(cause it HAS agrivated me some)......? I have seen everything you said right here in my home town .to the letter.......MOTIVES are not illegal....maybe immoral though.

Simply put, at this point Walmart is winning in a free enterprise contest. Almost all our cool little mom and pop shops have lost.
My point, trust is a non issue, we need to either start a chain store of our own and use GOOD morals and maybe make less money, drive those extra miles to a far off mom n pop shop....or walk into wally world.
I can use any more time today gettin agrivated ;) :D :D :D :D :D

[old3dogg]

I feel better in knowing that I am not the only one who feels this strongly about wal mart.
I wont shop there.I dont care what "we are for America" scam they try to pull.
We are lucky that we only have a small store in our area.They are trying to build a super center but most folks around here are fighting against it.I like being able to choose where I want to shop and not having some faceless company forcing me have to shop at thier store.
Down with wal mart! >:(

[Bro. Noble]

Boy how things change,  and I don't like it.

Used to be a grocery on the corner of about every block in most towns.  Then came the 'Supermarkets'  and closed down all the neighborhood stores.  The general stores in the country are almost a thing of the past-----brought on by better roads and lots of people working in town.  I don't like Walmart and agree on their reason for setting aside this land.  I,m glad they are doing it even if it's temporary though.

During the late 40's when I lived in a place called Topaz (come to think of it the whole town had been abandoned because of progress :D)  we always stopped at the 'Holt" store on the way to town-----25 miles of gravel road.  The old store looked like it could fall in at any time.  A couple of years ago our group sang in that community and I decided to stop for gas at the old store-----looks the same on the outside today as it did in my childhood except the gas pumps are electric now instead of hand powered.  Inside the store was considerably different.  They specialize in motorcycle appearal,  'peace' signs and jewelry and all sorts of funky stuff.

This was soon after I had shoulder surgery and the girl in charge,saw that I was having some trouble with the pump.  She rushed outside to help me and I really appreciated it.  I remember Mrs. Gregor who used to run the store in her long dress and hair in a 'bun'.  I'm not sure she would have appreciated this girl with her red and green and yellow hair and all her hardware and exposed skin.

Things change and I often wish I could go back,  but that's not the way it works :-\

[Roxie]

No, Bro. Noble.....maybe we can't go back....but those memories of the corner store will always be with us. 
The folks that ran the store in my neighborhood were named Johnson.  They had row after row of penny candy.  We'd come in clutching our nickels and try our best to narrow it down to five selections.  The Johnson's never lost patience with us as we pointed out what we wanted.  As I recall, Mr. Johnson would often have a two-for-one sale on that penny candy!   :D
Those were some really great folks! 

[Cedarman]

Just got a package in the mail today from the Hoosier National Forest people. Looking for public comments on another land swap. The trick is to buy a tract of land that the Hoosier wants, cut all the trees off, then look around for a tract of Hoosier that is isolated from where they want to concentrate and tell them you want to trade. The feds cant auction off the land they don't want to buy land they want, they must trade.  Only those in the know get in on the deals.  The appraisals usually value timber very low, so a clear cut parcel is almost valued the same as a forested tract. These make me sick.  These trades do not work for the benefit of the public as they are supposed to.

If Wallyworld would put 5000 acres in a trust for every store then we might get some good value.  50 acres ain't squat in my book.

Basic idea is good, just not enough of it.  And does not affect whether I buy or don't buy.

[Ron Wenrich]

Well, Walmart is just putting up the money.  It is going to the National Fish & Wildlife Federation and will insure the "permanent conservation" of 138,000 acres from Louisianna to Maine.  Walmart is donating $35 million over 10 years for the project.  That comes out to a little over $250/acre.  The $35 million is less than 1$ of its annual profit.

There are other partners involved in the project, so Walmart shouldn't be claiming all the glory.  

Currently, Walmart has 88,000 acres that it has developed.  It consumes another 5,000 acres per year.  

Walmart is just being used as an example in this poll.  Home Depot also made some concessions on rainforest woods a few years ago.  

[Patty]

I gotta ask....just what do you want the WalMarts, Home Depots to do? Should they close down and let things go back to the way they used to be? Would this be enough to stop all the anger directed to them? This question isn't directed at anybody, I am just curious that's all. These are American companies doing what many companies do; trying to earn buckets of cash. Are you so angry at GE or Apple or Microsoft? Inquiring minds want to know! I find it curious that most of us are self employed entrepenuer types, yet we hate those that do what we do only on a much larger scale. Are we envious or just plain angry? I just don't get it.

Please explain if you have answers for my questions. I am NOT trying to pick a fight or start an arguement' I am just curious, thats all.

[Cedarman]

Patty, if Wal-Mart and the other box stores wanted to put me out of business or drastically change it, it would only take a few phone calls. I hope I am insulated enough from them.  But a lot of the wood that I saw ends up in the big box stores. 

They have lots of power. Power gained by lawyers that exploit the laws that be and the laws that they can get to be.  They can spend whatever money they want and get zoning changed. Think you or I can do that?

The real truth for me is that it is our duty to fight the giants, to keep some power in the hands of the little people.  Remember, coal companies had the laws in their favor to keep their employees in check.  Laws get made by the people in power for the people in power.

Big box stores are like the Mafia, its just business. Does not Wal-Mart want all the business?

It is not so much that it is wrong what the big box stores are doing, it is our job to keep from being controlled by them.

If and when the cost of driving gets so high, we will shop by internet directly from the manufacturer and have UPS and FEDEX deliver. Some of us even do that today.

Patty, your questions are legitimate to me. Hope my answers make sense.

[Tom]

Patty,
I don't think the ire comes from the competition, it comes from, what is interpreted as, foul play.  If the local businesses went under because they couldn't stand up to the prices then that would be fair play.  I've heard the complaints that these big stores hold down prices until the local stores go out of business and then raise them to what they want after the competition is gone.   There is not much good said about wages, advancement, permanent employment, stocking, good merchandise, local involvement or many of those "like" things that most think that the local stores provided.   Not only are the jobs minimal but the profits are sent somewhere else in the United States and the money doesn't come back to the community that provided it.   It's kinda like having a hole in the bottom of your boat and you're running out of fingers.

In all fairness, it may be that our local business' use this "complaint" type tactic to respond to competition that they don't want.   That is just as unfair.  It's strange that the story's are the same in most municipalities though.

People in this country are feeling threatened by having their jobs go over-seas, company's being bought out by foreign businessmen, losing control of the standard of living they have become accustomed, mounting prices, having to do business with strangers and even doing business by catalog or Internet sales where they lose the face-to-face contact with their provider.   The bigger business becomes, the smaller the world becomes, the more lonely become the citizens.   I picture it as the same type of "useless" feeling that one would have if his country did all of the providing and took away the choices that a citizen enjoyed making.  Communism was a lot like that.  It took the spirit out of the population.   We are probably seeing the "spirit" taken out of the population.

[Paschale]

The kicker is that Wal Mart only succeeds because people, the public, go there, and choose to spend their dollars there.  In my mind, that's the bottom line.  Undoubtedly Wal Mart brings some people in with their amazing deals on some things, often on things they lose money on, so maybe that's considered not so fair-minded.  But we all have a choice where we spend our hard earned dollars.  For me, speaking of other big boxes, I sure prefer Home Depot and Lowe's and Menards to the regular lumber yard.  As a consumer, it's where I like to go.  Now, I would never buy my hardwood, or fine lumber from one of those places, but I just like those stores overall.  They've struck on something that the majority of consumers like.  Unfortunately, if the majority likes the big boxes, then the minority goes to the hometown lumber company, and then it might go under.  It's definitely sad when that happens.  But people will go where they like to go.  Wal Mart has clearly become a place that the public like to go, more than they like going to the local store.  I'm not saying I advocate it, but it's the public and the people who have decided to put the small stores out of business,with their spending power, not because Wal Mart forces them to go only to them.  Everyone who walks into a Wal Mart makes a conscious decision to spend their dollars there, and not someplace else.  For those of us who want to see local stores flourish, we need to choose to spend our dollars there and not Wal Mart, even if it costs us more.  I have a hard time seeing Wal Mart as simply just a diabolical force in the world, simply because they have succeeded so well in the capitalistic system that we have here in America. 

That being said, I usually spend my money at local stores.  I don't like how predatory Wal Mart is, but they are entitled to do that in the free market economy, and I can't impugn them for their success.  There are some things that I can only find at Wal Mart, so I shop there for those things.  The interesting thing that I've found, is that regardless of where I've been to a Wal Mart, these products are priced the same, so I don't know if the company policy could just be regarded as going in until other stores go under, and then gouge the community.  It's strange, because I don't view myself as a defender of Wal Mart, but I do feel a need to defend their right to succeed in our free market economy.

[etat]

This is a interesting discussion with a lot of good viewpoints.  I wanna throw in one little thing that ain't got nothing to do with none of this but it's all reminded me of it.  It happened a long time ago. 

And I gotta tell ya, I ain't never made a habit out of this.  In fact, I reckon I ain't ever even done it before nor since so don't get the wrong idea and think I'm bad about filling a lawsuit, cause I aint.   :

I once SUED Walmart,.............and WON! ;D

[Paschale]

Well, now CK...yer holding out on us!  Give us the skinny on your lawsuit!

[hawby]

I dont wanna sound like I am defending WalMart, K-Mart, or any other large box store, but I have to say this: Since WalMart and K-Mart have come to town... the town has exploded in activity. None of the high priced (local owned) hardware have gone out of business. The local grocery stores are all still here... and busier than ever. Tractor Supply has come in since... The elevator had already gone out of business. WE have added three car dealers.

It would appear that the competition that was spurred by the biggies was good for the locals. It caused them to stop taking us consumers for granted. They had to bring their margins in line. Now, some would say that they wish we still had our sleepy little County seat of  6500 people. Well, we have the ability now to get what we want 11 miles away now, instead of having to drive to the "Big City" 45 miles away. (We now have 7500 people)

I don't agree with all of XXXMarts strategies. I wish that not all of the goods say ,"Made outside the US." Some of that is XXXMart and some of that is greedy unions, and some is greedy consumerism. Some of it is the fact that our politicians have legislated our jobs out of America. In my honest opinion, we are individually responsible for making the best use of our resources. If I can get a
better deal at Hometown Lumber, I get it there, not only because I went to school with the owner, but because I know he uses the
money wisely. However, if I can get the best deal at XYZ, then I get it there, because, I need to use MY money wisely.

[chet]

Buzz, K-mart is still here. :D

Not only are they still here, but they recently purchased Sears for 11 billion.   :

[Gary_C]

This idea of offsetting the destruction of a cornfield or wetland by purchasing more land and taking it out of service is not going to make up for the land that is lost. The reason that investors have always liked land as an investment is because it is not being made anymore.  So when Walmart or any other developer buys land and turns most of it into asphalt, they really do not really create more land, or solve the problem in any way. 

There are lots of people that would have you believe that our forests and fields are being threatened by loggers, farmers, and large corporations destroying their own land. However the reality is there is a bigger threat from asphalt, concrete, and 5-10 acre tracts with homes.  Everyone now wants a piece of the country, but how much longer can we allow the land to be carved up by developers and individuals who want a piece of the country?

If you think there is still plenty of land to produce our needs, consider this. The other night I saw an interview with John Major, the former PM of England. His parting message was that of the 6 billion people in the world today something like 40% live on about $1 per day. When the population reaches 8 billion, 97% of the increase will be born in the part of the world that lives on $1 per day. If the more developed nations do not do more about this problem now, it may not be something that can be solved in the future.

[crtreedude]

Interesting thread - I will say my dos colones - which is valued a lot less than 2 cents by the way.  ;)

First of all, I don't shop Walmart - I think the nearest one is Mexico - which would require me driving through Nicarauga to get to it, just not worth it.  :D Besides, I don't like shopping there. When I am in the states, I don't buy from Walmart because I consider it low quality - when I buy a pair of jeans, they need to last,  - jeans in my size are a little hard to come by down here.

It actually is a good idea (never mind what Walmart means to do by it) to set aside land in a chunk for the environment - the bigger animals (especially predators) have to have large tracks of land -  patchwork areas provide some benefit - mainly as a place for the deer to hide so that they can live near you and eat your tulips (and anything else barely edible)

Taking land out of production (as long as it is permanent) does make a difference - and it is better than nothing.  However, what really needs to be examined is how much habitat is destroyed by the products that Walmart sales everyday - I suspect you would be shocked.  Just for example, imagine if Walmart were to say: "We refuse to sell any product that has an excessive amount of packaging - and no plastic packaging." They could do it (phase it in) and it would make a huge difference to landfills.

The model has to change if we are going to leave anything for the next generation. The vast majority out there wants all they can for themselves, and then some.  We are eating the "seed corn" for the next generation in my not so humble opinion.

A little soapbox here if I can be forgiven (I figured now that I am a Senior member, I am allowed rambling rants  ) I think those of us who have been on the earth a bit and shared in it's bounty need to be doing something to make sure that those who come after us - often our children - have something at least as good as we did.  Humans are supposed to be intelligent - which means we should be able to use that intelligence to help change things. I will say I sort of like what Walmart is doing - they are doing SOMETHING and for that I will lower my animosity toward them a notch. I really don't care if they do it for good press.  I think too many people think that technology someday is going to cure the problem so we don't need to do anything now. I hope they are right, but I really doubt it.

As far as population growth - not much that the developing countries can do - except put pressure on certain institutions who say that it is a sin to practice birth control.  (Not trying to cause a fight with that, but I live with the issue down here.)  Unfortunately, it appears that natural controls are starting to come into effect regarding population - disease and famine is taking it's toll of Africa - and there isn't much anyone can do. Just like when there are too many rabbits, soon there isn't enough food, and then, when their isn't enough food, the rabbits get weak, and then they get sick and since they are so packed together, the disease spreads like wildfile.  Pretty soon you have very few rabbits and the cycle starts again.  Pretty hard on the rabbits though.

Again, not trying to rile everyone up - but just throwing in my 1/2 penny (which is the value of 2 colones)

[Tom]

It doesn't rile me up to hear opinions like that.  I can even see some good in advertising schemes that will aid segments of the population or go for a 'believed" good cause. 

I have just gotten more cynical in my "older" years because of the broken promises I've seen. 

There was a time when we promised our retired soldiers and their families, medical services, shopping at reduced rates, subsidized groceries,etc.  Then it was decided to downsize the military and cut back on expenditures and the retirement benefits went out the window.  I have friends who planned their lives around their military career and lived on small salaries because they could shop on base.  Once out, they had small retirements, lost some of their shopping privileges and were thrown in the mix with the rest of us who had styled our lives in a much up-graded society.

I've seen land set aside for parks until someone comes along with pockets deep enough to challenge the zoning and get it changed.  Voilà!  A department store appears.

I've seen Little League parks that could once be walked to by the children in the neighborhood moved to outlying areas where the children had to be bussed because the land was more valuable as an Auto transmission repair store and strip center.

I've seen farms cut in two by airports, neighborhoods removed for expressways, landfills built where their was the least resistance and public meetings planned when there was no advertising of it or it was held at a time when nobody could attend.

Eminent Domain is a necessary evil.  It's a shame that we base so much on who will be benefited and ignore the fact that their are many who will be devastated.  It is though a legal means of perpetuating the society.

Many large corporations or prominent/wealthy businessmen act as if they have the right of Eminent Domain and will pull shady deals to get what they want at the expense of those who can't fight back.  These actions, perhaps legal, are not exactly morally upright. It's the promising of a lollipop while the candy store is being demolished.   It has happened so many times in my life that I question the honesty of even "good" deeds offered by the big stores, etc.  It's especially questionable when the terms are "I will do this if you let me do that".  We will offer this, then.............".     

There has been a fight going on for years now between two adjoining counties here.  A large piece of property was donated for a preserve.  One County wanted a new school and it looked very attractive to have it outside of town on this "less intensive" (read cheaper) property.  It didn't matter that rules (promises) were in place that the land wouldn't be developed.  Then the other county decided that they needed a new landfill and part of the properly adjoining the new, proposed school was targeted.  "we'll replace the preserve somewhere else".    "We Can return the land to its proposed use after the landfill is closed".   Ha!!

Well, that hasn't happened and the land still is open.  I hope that the wishes of the family will be honored in the future.

It's just a matter of trust that drives my cynical attitude.   Most of these things don't even directly affect me.  When I read about them in the News Paper or hear of them on the radio, I become defensive immediately.  Rather than jumping on the band-wagon and saying "what a wonderful idea.  What good people you are".   I think, "watch your back, what are they really doing, when is the other foot to fall?"  :D

[etat]

I'm a pretty regular visitor to our local landfill.  It doesn't take regular garbage or tires just rubbish though sometimes some of it gets mixed in.  It's out on the edge of town and there was a big fuss years ago when this land was chosen.  It didn't have good timber on it just scrubby grass and a few scrub trees.  The dirt is heavy clay and it runs deep.  Hershel is steadily digging a pit as deep as the track hoe can dig and as the trench fills up he covers it over.  I've been dumping there for almost ten years and it's always kept fairly clean with a good road in and out.  It doesn't stink at all but as I said it's a rubbish landfill, not garbage.  It is regularly inspected for content, ground water contamination, and to make sure the rubbish is covered up every night.  I've seen deer grazing early in the morning on the grass that's planted over the older areas and rabbits too.   Once I was worried and questioned what would be done when the area was completely used up and was told they'd just start over again digging and burying over the top of what was already buried.  I was told they could do this a total of three times so apparently this landfill will still be in use for years and years to come.  I've got thousands of squares of shingles buried in this landfill, without it I'd be out of business in a minute.  I also was told after they were completely through the area would be planted in pine.  Of course the land very likely won't be fit to build over, that I don't know about for sure.  Are landfills a good thing, probably not.  A necessary evil, yes I think so.  The garbage we generate has to go somewhere. 

[crtreedude]

You know, if I could (and had enough money), I would buy certain landfills that are capped for the right to mine them at a future date.

Resources continue to get rarer and technology of recycling continues to progress - sometime in the future, those landfills will be goldmines I am thinking.

From some things that I have read, I am not the only person to think this way.

[Rocky_Ranger]

I've waited a little to weigh in on this topic, just to read the opinions of the group.  I for one am proud of Walmart and what it's done for local industries.  Yeah, they're a bunch of dorks (or worse) to deal with but they do sell products at a fair price.  Quality was suspect early on when old Sam first went into business but that has changed.  I shop at Sam's and at "The Mart" every chance I get.  I'm from the area of store # 55 but that was a long time ago.  Hurt the mom & pops to be sure but if it hadn't been Walmart it would have been somebody else.  When I had a farm I could buy most of the grease, hydraulic oil, tools and equipment for at least 20% less than the downtown scoundrels.  I now live where gas is at $2.39/gallon for the cheap stuff and it's 40 minutes to Walmart – oh excuse me, "mamma" says we need to head over there now..............   

If they can pull off some good will in setting aside lands for conservaton purposes it's more than most are doing.  They do alot for a local community, just not everybody's cup of tea.

[Quartlow]

Do I shop at wal mart, soemtimes. depends on how much i'm spending and how much I'm gonna save. most of the time we shop the local stores since I HATE TRAFFIC!!!! thats what keeps me out of the box stores  ;D

Ironicly some things can be bought cheaper local than HD or lowes, I can buy the same brand of square drive screws at my local hadware for 30% less than blue or orange!

Will this cange my buying habits? NOPE!

[SwampDonkey]

Actually, I welcome Walmart to our closet town. We have no place the shop in this area. All we have is plenty of places to eat, and not all that healthy eating either. We have to travel 100 miles to the closest city to get decent clothes and shoe ware that aren't over inflated in price. If I'm gonna buy stuff from China, I want the best price. I'm not gonna pay $170 for a pair of work boots that Walmart sells for $68 (your only gonna get a years wear from them before they fall apart anyway), or Jeans for $65 that Walmart sells for $25.  >:(

[Larry]

Well lets see....you guys are really beating up Walmart so better not go shopping there.

So I went off to our brand new Home Depot that just opened last Thursday.  I irritated the first clerk by showing my $10 off card I got from Lowes.  She got back by giving me a 10% off card.  So I continue through the store and manage to irritate a second clerk...he advises if I open a HD credit card I can get an additional 10% off.  I'm after mostly appliances so I irritate a third clerk in the appliance department by wanting to see the scratch and dent stuff...they don't have anything cause the store has been open less than a week.  So I press for manufacture rebates.  Got my list pretty much filled out by now.  Dishwasher, 2 over the range microwaves, 2 garbage disposals, ceramic tile, and wet tile saw.  Hate shopping but love to save money. ;D  What else I need? :D

Just to keep this thread on track wetland mitigation is the law...if they have to do it on site it is very expensive and not very effective.  They can put 10 times the amount of land into a reserve out in the bottoms at half the cost and it will benefit everybody.  I think the public is getting the best of the deal on this one. 

[Tom]

My experience with Wetlands Mitigtion, next door, is a hill where the trees were harvested, 2 feet of soil was removed to create a "wetlands" (it didn't) and wetlands trees planted back.  The same species that were there before.  Then the land was allowed to be accepted by the mitigation bank and the two thousand dollar an acre property became worth twenty-six thousand dollars an acre and credits sold to the developers in town who wanted to cover up a wetlands.

I don't mind the creative thinking of the new landowner who puchased the property soley for this project but I do mind the destruction of a highlands to create a wetlands to allow mitigation at an inflated price.  Land that is already a wetlands wasn't allowed to be used for mitigtion.  That is, it wasn't until the powers-that-be found out that it lay in the region that they wanted for a greenway and then it was allowed to be mitigated at a lower cost.

I suppose my doubts come about because i've seen "zoning" changed at a later date to satisfy a project proposed by someone who could make it financially attractive to the Bureaucratic departments that control these specially zoned areas.   How long will it take?  What will it be next?

[Gunny]

I guess the bottom-line (an attractive term for all of us involved in self-employment) within this entire thread is that we--collectively and individually--steward the lands, big and small--which we oversee. 

Somewhere within this discussion, someone mentioned "stewardship" as it applied to past practices but my life expereinces, and the actual history of the matters considered, indicate anything but "stewardship" has been utilized.  Rather, piracy, plunder, and the pillage of most availablke natural resources, for maximum profit, has been the rule, rather than the exception.  (Interestingly, one of the--if not the--first records of domestic "terrorism" occurred on Lake Huron during the early 1850s when a pirate timber ship rammed the U.S.S Michigan, a Naval vessel whose primary mission was to impede the blatant theft of the remaining virgin timber along the boundaries of the Great Lakes.)

As I mentioned earlier, if we can't trust others to get the job done, let's do it ourselves.  For every StuffMArt paving paradise, I can point a finger at timber operations in this area which have accomplished far worse, in terms of blatant destruction of once-pristine lands.  Besides, why does it take a PR campaign by a giant corporation to incite such diverse reactions to this issue?  If we have 2500 members within this particular forum, we should certainly be able to generate enough cash-flow to "obtain" similar quantities of land.  My family and I are most delighted to offer the first annual donation to this cause when it is effected.  Anyone else care to promote the effort?  We might even find ourselves, in the very near future, with a Forum rendevous site!  What better opportunity to train and teach others about effective stewardship? 

[bull]

Gunny are suggesting that you are willing to create the Forestry Forum Land Trust LLC ??  Hmm

[Gunny]

Bull:

I don't know that an "LLC" is the route to take (perhaps it is) but I do appreciate your inquiry.  Lord knows, folks from the major metro areas have snagged onto thousands of acres in this region (west-central Michigan) with less common interests--hunting being their primary focus. 

If people can form a "Hunt Club" and acquire, through their collective efforts--such quantities of land, perhaps we can do the same for our particular purposes of education/conservation, whatever.

Of course, acquisitions would have to be directed within the states of interest of our members.  It's worth some brainstorming, eh?  We certainly have the skills and experiences already aboard.  There are an awful lot of nice tracts available (some on Land Contract) right up in Jeff B.'s area that might provide those of us in this area a nice spot to roast a pig every now and then.  (We'd like another spot to run our sled dogs, too!) 

Thoughts anybody?

[crtreedude]

Even though this is what I am currently doing (in a way) in Costa Rica, if you go for a Forestry Forum Land Trust, I'll throw some into the kitty too.

[Gunny]

CR:

Thanks so much--though I'd love to see a site your way, too, since I've been dreaming of (kinda)retiring in Costa Rica for decades!

Well, the ball is rolling.  Hard to stop a body in motion.  We'll see what transpires from here.  Johnny Appleseed's got nothing on us!

Best your way.

[crtreedude]

It has been a real adventure here - there are always issues to overcome in life, but there sure are joys too.

I just wrote another story about life here you might enjoy (not meaning to hijack this thread)

http://www.fincaleola.com/traffic_jam_costa_rica_style.htm

If anyone wants to plant trees - just to put them in the ground, let me know, I'll structure something. I do get contacted doing it and do plant trees just to reforest - all I have to do is cover land cost and a little more.

[Buzz-sawyer]

Gunny
I used the word STEWARDSHIP but it was not even close to the context you mention.

I said,"The only way for these types of things to stop occuring is for HUMAN nature to change...and it will not in this life.
I am all for big trees , I like to look at them.........And I like parks and reserves, but I believe we are here to be stewards of the earth who take from  it, with respect
I guess I am just not in agreement with the whole concept of, ANTI greed =making money,
fat cats, corprate is bad socialistic thing....It rings of class envy and scape goating........."
How is taking from the earth with respect , rape and plunder?

[Buzz-sawyer]

TOM
You said,"It has happened so many times in my life that I question the honesty of even "good" deeds offered by the big stores, etc.  It's especially questionable when the terms are "I will do this if you let me do that".  "

Buzz says..........And that got me thinking about the people who lived here in North America before use others moved in..........You sound like a native chief speaking of the countless aggreements and subsequent reversals and duplicity thrust on these folks...........all in the name of progress and civilization (read GREED)....was it legal.well yes only because the lobbiests and special interest groups got the laws reversed and the treaties broken...was it MORAL.............

[Ron Wenrich]

Gunny:

Several ways of doing what you're talking about.  One would be conservation easements.  You don't really have to buy the land, but you could preserve it in its current state.  Resource management is still an option.

The other is to form co-operatives.  Landowners benefit and we can apply our various degrees of expertise. 

[crtreedude]

A conversational easement is definitely a good way to go.  Teaming up is another - creating corridors for wildlife and also preserving mother trees for the future.

Personal opinion, much of the time the reason for raping the land is because we want to extract every bit of profit possible from it - sometimes because we need it to survive, but unfortunately often because we are just plan greedy and want a nicer car or home, or some toy.  Often for large businesses they want to show the best possible return for their share holders.

The truth is that it isn't normally the rich who are doing things to make things better but those who are just thinking about putting a little of their hard earned money to work at something more than just making money. Also, there are many ways to invest in returns that also help at the same time.

I think that we are going to have to see a shift in thinking. Back when resources were free for the taking, grabbing all you could get as quick as you can probably made sense. However, for many of the resources now, it is no longer the case - if those resources are not used in a sustainable manner - I fear our children will curse us. That would be a sad thought.

[Gunny]

Ron, cr:

Thanks for the insights--do you think we might need to create a new thread--I'd hate to lose the interest of the membership by this topic being buried so deeply in this one.

An easement is one route but I'm leaning towards a cooperative effort and, most definitely, allowing for the accumulated expertise of the members to sustain the efforts into the future.  Acquisition of the lands would be relatively simple.  Intelligent utilization of the resources would require a little teamwork, no?  I don't know that forming a non-profit would benefit the group--it would allow for access to grant monies, etc., though.

Certain FF lands could be established across the continent--where membership demographics allowed--and expenses could easily be funded through minimal resource management practices when and where applicable.  I envision these sites as educational bases within which many of the arts/crafts of our membership could be shared and fostered along to the next generations.  I've hand-built my own domes and log cabins, drilled my own wells, grown food organically for decades, hunted, fished, owned and operated our certified tree farm, had a bandsawmill, DH dry kiln, woodwright shoppe, etc.  We have Timber-framing masters in our midst and so many folks of expertise, it's almost mind-boggling. 

Incorporation would, of course, place that supposed veil of "security" upon the operations and that might be another option.  Again, I'm just tossing this idea forward in light of the many reactions to WalMart having announced the aforementioned program.  I don't think it'd be too hard to establish a bank account in the name of the project (each State establishing its own?) and accessing property options in the desired locations.  (One of my articles for BackHome Magazine was, ironically, all about the many options avaliable in acquiring rural properties.)


Must flit to chores around here--this "retirement" thing just never did quite become what I thought it might!  I'll keep an eye on the forum to see how this develops.  Thanks so much again.  2500 heads are far brighter than one.

[bull]

Hey Gunny !!  John Chapman AKA Johnny Appleseed may have something on us.
The City of Leominster MA. is his home Town and the site of his 30 acre home farm has been saved and is now in  a land trust. Also One of his largest under takings Now known as "Sholan Farms" has been placed under a land trust. The total farm over 400 acres has been save by the Friends of Sholan Farm.. Apx 200 acres are in apple production and some though only a few are original trees. The remainder of the property is Woodland. All must be maintained as a working Farm and the woodland must be under active management...     

                                     Bull.

[Gunny]

Bull:

Maybe this legacy is something we can focus on if we attempt any such thing?  Thanks for the insight--our kids all read the John Chapman bio for their school work and we discussed the impact one person can have on the world when there's more than talk applied.  Thanks again...