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Author Topic: Poll: organic  (Read 10532 times)

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Offline Ron Wenrich

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Poll: organic
« on: June 04, 2006, 08:36:47 PM »
Poll expires 6-19-06
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Offline Quartlow

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Re: Poll: organic
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2006, 09:12:19 PM »
Organic is a misleading term any more, depending on who certified it.

If it says USDA certified it may well have chemicals used along the way. When the gov got involved they loosened up the standards so almost anyt ihing goes  >:(

I grow all my own veggies, pork, chicken and eggs come from my brothers farm, while the beef comes from either a friend of ours or my cousin

Of course we still eat some non organic stuff but not like we used to
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Offline Bill

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Re: Poll: organic
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2006, 01:44:26 AM »
I've seen and/or heard the same about "organic" labeling - seems the big guys want the standard "relaxed" so they can squeek in. As in many things these days it's best to know what you're paying for.


Offline UNCLEBUCK

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Re: Poll: organic
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2006, 01:45:18 AM »
Going organic farming in any form like grain or organic dairy can take up to 3 years to become certified 100% organic where I live and not many go that route because of the loss of income until the final certification. The specialty niche markets seem to have a booming business like shipping organic sweet corn overnight to someones dinner table in downtown san francisco that can afford it .

I make most of my food and can sure tell food that has additives and preservatives in it as it gives me a headache . Although I have started adding a full can of beer to my daily bread baking recipe and everything seams two bea gowing reely swell  ;D

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Offline Patty

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Re: Poll: organic
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2006, 07:59:49 AM »
We grow much of our own food as well, and don't add the chemicals. I just feel better knowing that most of what I eat is grown with our own hands on our own land. I sometimes buy the organic stuff at the store, but it really isn't that predominant where I shop.
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Offline crtreedude

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Re: Poll: organic
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2006, 09:42:44 AM »
Here in Costa Rica you can sometimes get organic grown - and of course Janet's coffee is definitely organic. Costa Rica has a very high rate of stomach cancer - they don't know if it is the pesticides (probably) or something else.

I perfer organic - and I prefer to grow my own so that I know it is organic - or, if I did need to use spray, I know when it was applied, and how much.

Eating fruits and vegetables with insect damage doesn't really both me - as long as they get out of the way in time.  ::)

So, how did I end up here anyway?

Offline Quartlow

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Re: Poll: organic
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2006, 09:58:30 AM »
Going organic farming in any form like grain or organic dairy can take up to 3 years to become certified 100% organic where I live and not many go that route because of the loss of income until the final certification. The specialty niche markets seem to have a booming business like shipping organic sweet corn overnight to someones dinner table in downtown san francisco that can afford it .


Yeah that pretty much covers it. My brother has two places in Pittsburgh that will take all the chicken he can supply them with. At $5 a pound.
He never has any trouble selling the eggs and the veggies at 3 different farmer's markets he goes to.

What kills the organic thing for most growers is the that they only see the extra labor involved in raising it. So for the first 2 years your doing the work but only getting conventional prices. The third year you can sell it organic. Third year is called your transition year. It USUALLY doesn't have anything to do with where you live. My brother and a neighbor of his both farm organic in PA. The belong to the Organic  Crop Improvement Association. One of the oldest in the world and the only one that is international. Oh though some states are getting involved now, Illinois is one of them, problem is the people writing the legislation don't have a clue and won't listen to organizations like the OCIA

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Offline Coon

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Re: Poll: organic
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2006, 02:39:05 PM »
Organic is very often misinterpreted.  Many people think that a product is organic just because it says so.  Not all products (in my opinion) that claim to be organic really are.  Take this scenario for instance. 

A farmer grows his own pork, poultry, and beef.  He claims to be growing them all 100% organic using feed that he has grown himself using herbicides and occaisonally pesticides.   The farmer is selling his farm raised beef, poultry, and pork as organic meat.  This is not organic by any means.  There is still going to be chemical residues present in the feed which is in turn passed onto the livestock.  Once there is this chemical residue present in a particular animal the animal will never be organic.

People these days just do not look into products deep enough to really see how we are killing ourselves each and every time we eat.

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Offline Tom

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Re: Poll: organic
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2006, 03:04:08 PM »
I like hotdogs :)
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Offline SwampDonkey

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Re: Poll: organic
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2006, 03:34:13 PM »
The gris mill in Speerville produced flour and cereal grain from my father's farm. They were stamping it as organic and it had been sprayed with fungicide, dusted with fertilizer from chemical companies and sprayed for bugs.


Don't get me wrong I like the idea of eating food without chemicals on it. But, can we feed a nation on organically grown food? As an aside to this: It wouldn't be a problem in Canada because we have a very small population on a very large productive land base. But, back to organic: Seems the yield per acre would be less because of bugs and disease. And would many operations of any size (500 + acre operations) have enough available compost or manure for fertilizer? Or labour to tend the crops? Getting harder here every year to retain farm labour. Everybody's food bill would be expected to rise substantially as not everyone is a farmer or wants to be. As it is already, food costs are kept artificially low because of government subsidies. Some countries would have lost alot more farmers or be out of it all together if the government wasn't lending a hand.
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Offline Quartlow

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Re: Poll: organic
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2006, 08:53:53 PM »
  Once there is this chemical residue present in a particular animal the animal will never be organic. 

Not exactly true, Once they have been on organic feed for I do believe 6 months they can be used for breeding. I would have to check with my brother but after a period I believe even the animal itself can be called organic.


For organic to work you have to go back to the small farm. Something that Monsato doesn't want.

Quote
Seems the yield per acre would be less because of bugs and disease. And would many operations of any size (500 + acre operations) have enough available compost or manure for fertilizer?

As for production, my brother and his neighbors  corn both out produced my wifes cousin's chemical corn.
on soybeans cousin did more per acre, but he drills his in with the grain drill and on an organic operation you plant them with the corn planter so you can cultivate them.

Then there's the open pollinated seed VS the hybrid seed. Ohio State university did a study and the open pollinated seed's out performed the hybrid seed. You can read about in an issue from the Farm and Dairy from a couple weeks ago.

If you have healthy ground you won't have disease and pest's. All you do when you dump chemicals on the ground is kill the natural bacteria and the earthworms.
Why do you think you see guys putting drains in fields that by rights should drain by themselves?
I'll tell you why they have killed off all the worms and the soil is compacted beyond belief, as a result the water just lays there.

Did you know that plants only have about 30% of the nutrients available to them when you use commercial fertilizer? Where as organic fertilizers they have 100% available. When you go to organic fertilizers you you less of it. And this year due to rising petro cost cous paid $325 per ton for fertilizer and my brother got his organic fertilizer for $315. And used less per acre.

Not all farmers get subsidies either, my Brother and his neighbor don't and neither does cous. If the government would get out of it and make it survive on its own you wouldn't see the big 5000 acre farms any more. you would see 10 500 acre farms instead. You don't need 5000 acres to make a decent living. My brother does it on 150, his neighbor does it on 275. Cousin makes enough farming part time on 200 that the farm supports itself but not him.

Theres a whole lot more to the problem than just farming. You know it takes very little effort to can and freeze enough veggies for a year. But how many people do it any more? DanG few. Why because they all have this attitude of I have to have it now. Oh I gotta have that, put it on the credit card,,,oh oh I gotta have that , lets second mortgage the house!!!! ::)  ::) So both parents end up having to work all the time and theres no time left to take care of the necessities of life. For that matter how many people actually know how to preserve food any more?

If we had a stock market crash today, in one year our population would probably be reduced
30 to 50 % just due to starvation. Scary isn't it? The folks on here would probably survive just due to the fact that most of us have had to scrape and actually work to get where we are.

All right I'll quit ranting and get off of my soap box now
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Offline Frickman

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Re: Poll: organic
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2006, 09:21:12 PM »
I grew alot of sweet corn until two years ago, still do a little hay and beef cattle. Back when I grew the sweet corn the only chemicals used were a little fertilizer to supplement manure, lime (yes, burnt lime is considered a chemical by organic standards), and sometimes a little bit of herbicide like atrazine or 2-4D. Some of the seed had that pink stuff on it to keep the critters away too. Our corn was the best tasting around, even our competitors acknowledged it. By using some some basic practices like crop rotation and cultivation you can reduce your reliance on chemicals and increase your crop yields.

A competitor out the road is a chemical farmer, she applies lots of chemicals to everything, whatever Monsanto, Cargill, ADM, etc. recomends. The only years she does well are of average tempature and rainfall. During dry years the chemicals burn up all the plants. Wet years drown the plants as the soil is so compacted it does not drain well. We had our good years and and our better years, but we never lost the whole crop, no matter the weather.

It would have been fairly easy to go completely organic, but I could never see the point in it. There never seemed to be a price premium for organic produce in our area, and I wasn't about to spend alot of time marketing it in and delivering it to the big city an hour away. Our customers wanted good tasting, fresh produce, with a minimum of chemical inputs. Most understood that any chemical inputs I put in the corn had either dissipated or remained in neglible amounts by harvest time.

The beef we raise is basically organic without the label. They get pasture, hay, water, and salt/mineral blocks. Maybe an apple now and then. No grain whatsoever. It sure is good tasting meat, alot better than in the finest restaraunts.
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Offline wiam

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Re: Poll: organic
« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2006, 10:57:22 PM »
I had a local guy that raises organic milking replacements tell me that soon for a dairy cow to be organic she has to be born of an organic cow.  There will not be any 3 year wait.

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Offline Coon

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Re: Poll: organic
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2006, 01:08:36 AM »
I was born and raised in farming country.  Just because some big wig officials say that after 3 months of feeding an animal organic feed (or whatever time frame they want to specify) that an animal may be bread  and the young can be considered as organic does not mean that that particular mother animal will ever be truely an organic animal.  I don't really care what anyone says against this topic either.  It is just the same as a smoker smoking cigarrettes for years on end and quitting.  After three months, three years, or three decades that person will still have an amount of residue left in the body be it nicotine or tar or whatever.

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Offline Cedarman

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Re: Poll: organic
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2006, 07:58:34 AM »
Anyone know where you can get pasture raised pork in southern Indiana? We used to raise lots of hogs on pasture.  Fed ear corn and some supplement and minerals. The pork chops you get now taste like cardboard.  Notice how the restaurants have to serve pork stuffed or in BBQ sauce to get it to have some flavor.  What I would give for a good piece of pork shoulder, covered with a little flour and pan fried.  In my opinion they have bred the flavor out of pork.
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Offline Quartlow

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Re: Poll: organic
« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2006, 09:43:37 AM »
I was born and raised in farming country.  Just because some big wig officials say that after 3 months of feeding an animal organic feed (or whatever time frame they want to specify) that an animal may be bread  and the young can be considered as organic does not mean that that particular mother animal will ever be truely an organic animal.  I don't really care what anyone says against this topic either.  It is just the same as a smoker smoking cigarrettes for years on end and quitting.  After three months, three years, or three decades that person will still have an amount of residue left in the body be it nicotine or tar or whatever.

Brad.

Well you entitled to your opinion. OCIA just doesn't pull numbers out of thin air. They have spent years doing testing and research. Most of them are not just "bigwigs" a lot of the admins of OCIA are farmers, or ex farmers who have quit farming to concetrate on furthing the OCIA.

You have your opinion, and I have mine.
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Offline Max sawdust

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Re: Poll: organic
« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2006, 02:50:08 PM »
Heard on the Radio that our good friends at Wal-Mart are going to sell "organic".
To me the advantage of Organic used to be small farmers producing quality produce to sell locally.  It is my impression that Organic was used as a way to create a market against the giant Cooperate farms.  IT WORKED.  Maybe too well, now Wal-Mart is in the game, so we will see.

Maybe for me it is not about the chemical definition of organic, it is about something being raised locally by small farmers and not triple wrapped in plastic and shipped around the world from some big factory farm. >:( 

I will stop here before I start to rant on how big corp farms destroyed a way of life especially in places like Wisconsin :-X

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Offline SwampDonkey

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Re: Poll: organic
« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2006, 05:11:33 PM »
My folks were farmers and there were 4 other generations on the farm before. And I know back in my great grand father's day they never used any chemicals on the farm. Just spread some manure in spring and fall to clean up the barn yard manure pile and go on. I do remember hearing from the folks that the yield per acre has increased over the years when compared to less modern farming. I don't care how you try to present it, but if your growing a large acrage of a crop and maybe several others there are things above the ground also that affect the crops to such as blight, rust, smut. You might not ever see it in your fields for years, then all the sudden it's there. And potato bugs, you can etch out an acre of ground 50 miles in the deep woods and grow potatoes and you might be bug free the first year. But, I can guarantee they will be there by the 3rd year and in groves. I've seen it happen. And this is in gardens as organic as you can get. Bugs can also be a carrier of disease.

However with modern farming, I do agree the the arthropods do get a hammering. Take a look under a patch of wild raspberries or along a hedgerow with a thicket of shrubs and see all the round peds on the surface of the ground. That definately has benefits to the plants. My garden is rich with earthworms and creepy crawlies.  Just take and turn a shovel full of earth and see all the critters.  ;D

My mom and I were always against chemicals, my father used to take a bath in the stuff every time he drove the tractor pulling a sprayer behind it and no cab, no protection on.  Going to live forever attitude you know. ::)
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Offline Jodi

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Re: Poll: organic
« Reply #18 on: June 06, 2006, 07:04:49 PM »

Offline Mooseherder

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Re: Poll: organic
« Reply #19 on: June 06, 2006, 07:10:53 PM »
Being in the grocery industry. I can tell you organic and all natural products sales are on the rise. All grocery companies are doing their best to locate as many products that are available. This, along with WalMart getting into the scene will probably drive down some retail prices at Stores like Whole Foods, Fresh Markets and Wild Oats as competition heats up. The company who supplies us with our Private Label chicken is building a new 200,000 square foot facility to process a new line of Free Range Chicken. Our current supplier of Free Range is Murrays. We sell the heck out of Murray's Free Range Whole Birds and Boneless Breasts. A few years ago, I met a very interesting man called Roy Moore. Roy is the owner of Maverick Ranch Beef and Pork.  His company supplies us with our Natural Beef and Pork line, also a very growing category for us. There was a group of about 50 of us on a fishing trip. Roy kept me from sleeping one night while he talked about what drove him and how he got started growing natural Beef. He had my full attention,  a very wise man indeed.  He also encouraged me to read the book Silent Spring by Rachel Carson. You can view snipets by doing a google search on the title.  IMO, Organic products and all natural products will drive the grocery industry the next few years. We are just at the beginning.
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Offline crtreedude

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Re: Poll: organic
« Reply #20 on: June 06, 2006, 07:35:33 PM »
There is a certain ebb and flow to things. Many years ago, chemicals were considered a God send. Loosing your entire crop to a bunch of potatoe bugs isn't a pleasant thing. Chemicals allowed people to have a more reliable crop.

Then of course, people decided if a little is good - lets start spraying before we have a problem. Pretty soon, people don't want a head of lettuce unless it is perfect.

Now, things are shifting back a bit. After you have been around for a while, it is hard to get worked up about it. I will always try to use the least amount of chemicals possible - but at times, it is either spray, or lose the crop. If I have plenty of other things - fine. But, if not, them bugs are toast.

But I don't mind a few holes in the leaves of my lettuce.

So, how did I end up here anyway?

Offline Quartlow

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Re: Poll: organic
« Reply #21 on: June 06, 2006, 10:19:30 PM »
SD You and I have had this talk before friend  ;D Them must potato bugs must like you canucks  :D :D

Seriusly though I guess my brother and I have both been lucky, neither one of us have ever had a problem with them.
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Offline Dan_Shade

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Re: Poll: organic
« Reply #22 on: June 09, 2006, 04:22:26 PM »
man oh man, have I spent some time picking potato bugs.  they will destroy a potato crop.

i'd like to be 100% organic, but i really don't think we could feed the entire country on organic produce.  i do agree the pesticides and such are used too much....  it's bad stuff.  i'm working towards being completely vegitable independent....

next question is do the organic farmers have to use organic manure? 
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Offline wiam

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Re: Poll: organic
« Reply #23 on: June 09, 2006, 10:53:57 PM »
Dan, that is one of my biggest pet peaves about organic.  NO MANURE IS ORGANIC UNTIL 60 DAYS.  AT 61 DAYS,  ALL MANURE IS ORGANIC. ::) ::) ::)

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Re: Poll: organic
« Reply #24 on: June 10, 2006, 06:23:35 AM »
SD You and I have had this talk before friend  ;D Them must potato bugs must like you canucks  :D :D

Seriusly though I guess my brother and I have both been lucky, neither one of us have ever had a problem with them.

You probably growing gene spliced hybrid potatoes with insectide against the bugs. :D :D  They do have them you know and you are not allowed to grow your own seed because of patents on them. ;D
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Offline Quartlow

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Re: Poll: organic
« Reply #25 on: June 10, 2006, 03:42:44 PM »
You probably growing gene spliced hybrid potatoes with insectide against the bugs. :D :D  They do have them you know and you are not allowed to grow your own seed because of patents on them. ;D

Your the one with the spliced jeans SD  :D  :D  :D

Actually all of our seed that we buy which isn't much comes from here
http://www.ronnigers.com/
We get the odd stuff from them, our reds and white potato seeds our all our own and have been in the family over 25 years. My brother raise all our seed potatos for those.



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Offline SwampDonkey

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Re: Poll: organic
« Reply #26 on: June 10, 2006, 04:41:26 PM »

Your the one with the spliced jeans SD :D :D :D

No, but they might have a few rips and tears from all the brush and brambles. ;)

Quartlow, doesn't the seed have to be approved by Dept of Agriculture as far as using your own seed? I'm sure that's the case in the US as well, since our seed is sent to Florida for testing. We have several areas that are quaranteened seed producing areas. Can't even bring spuds from Newfoundland to NB. I remember being over there once and before boarding the ferry back to the mainland they went through our stuff looking for spuds in transit.  We have foundation, elite and certified that have to be tested and approved. Certified is the lowest on the scale and usually very labour intensive to get approval on it by roguing the disease out of the field. Of course the other grades of seed are rogued to. We've had boughten certified seed that was simply a mess of disease. Someone got approval by a Fed with his feet up on the dashboard of the pickup.  ::) You have to take tops and tubers and all from the field in sacs and dispose of them. I believe (not 100 % sure) that the foundation tubers comes from plants grown from the actual flower seed (controlled pollination) and not the tubers. You can't even leave piles of waste potatoes around without burrying them. 25 years seems like a long time to me. ;) Father sold seed for 40 years, but he had to keep buying improved stock every 2 or 3 years.
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Re: Poll: organic
« Reply #27 on: June 10, 2006, 08:12:12 PM »
Maybe for me it is not about the chemical definition of organic, it is about something being raised locally by small farmers and not triple wrapped in plastic and shipped around the world from some big factory farm.

This is how I feel too.  I don't care if it's labeled "organic" particulary, but I buy from local farmers or grow my own.   I use raw whole milk, and buy yogurt, butter, eggs and vegetables from local Amish farmers.  We supply our own beef.  If I buy from the grocery store, I prefer to buy organic products because the waxed appearance and feel of the "regular" produce upsets me.   :D  I wouldn't eat the peel on those super shiny apples or cucumbers for nothing!  I've picked apples, cucumbers and green peppers, and that ain't how they look! 
My major pet peeve is "salad greens" in those plastic bags.  Is it just me?  Has anyone else noticed that there is a stink when ya open the bag?  The real deal is just a few steps away and if ya pick up a hunk of fresh romaine, it doesn't smell like that!   ::)
I really enjoy good quality, locally grown foods.......but oh those hot dogs!!   8)
Say when

Offline Max sawdust

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Re: Poll: organic
« Reply #28 on: June 11, 2006, 09:08:50 PM »
Roxie,
 8) 8) 8)
Yup 100% with ya.
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Re: Poll: organic
« Reply #29 on: June 11, 2006, 11:47:46 PM »
SD
Honestly I have no idea, all I know is brother plants stuff late in the year for harvest as seed potato's been doing it that way for years. I don't have the room to do it so I just get mine from him.

Your right about one thing though a certification is only as good as the bribe that was paid off  :D
One thing I can tell you is the OCIA inspectors that show up at my Brothers and his neighbors don't mess around. you better have every thing documented and there better not be any thing on the farm thats not allowed. Scary part is since the Dept of ag and the USDA  got involved they are easier to deal with than the OCIA. They go by a much more relaxed set of rules
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Re: Poll: organic
« Reply #30 on: June 12, 2006, 12:01:38 AM »
Roxy I heard on the radio that there had been a lot of people getting sick from baged salads. a lot of them had e-coli  or something like that.
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Re: Poll: organic
« Reply #31 on: June 12, 2006, 05:54:40 AM »
Lettuce shouldn't stink..........here's your sign.   :D

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Re: Poll: organic
« Reply #32 on: June 12, 2006, 07:56:19 AM »
Organic is defined as : Matter that was once living and is now dead !!  yummie !!! ;)

 BMP / IPM  only way to fly, I use very little in the way of Chemicals, but some are necessary and the organic crowd has made some of there own.  Some of the organic remidies are more toxic to humans and animals than what the chemical company's make, becareful and use common sence ! And above all: Please don't P/O Mother Nature.!!


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