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Author Topic: I want to build a table  (Read 8453 times)

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Offline Brad_bb

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Re: I want to build a table
« Reply #40 on: January 25, 2012, 09:34:41 PM »
A new woodworking buddy invited me to go to a new wood supplier on Saturday (about an hour and a half away) with him.  From the website, they have all species, and do custom millwork.  I just may have them glue up the top and sand it for me since they have the wide sander.  I called and they do have live edge black walnut.  Is that what they call rift sawn?
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Offline WDH

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Re: I want to build a table
« Reply #41 on: January 25, 2012, 09:44:40 PM »
It could be.  It could also be flatsawn or quarter sawn, depending on where in the tree the board came from.  The fact that it has a live edge does not make it rift sawn.
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Offline Brad_bb

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Re: I want to build a table
« Reply #42 on: January 28, 2012, 05:01:17 PM »
Was watching Roy Underhill today and it was the show about expantion and contraction and hydroscopic nature of wood. 

He said something that got me thinking...
My table top glue up, the board don't have to be quarter sawn do they?  I mean, I can use flat sawn pieces so long as I alternate the ring direction correct?

By the way, our trip to the wood supplier got postponed until next Saturday becuase they'll be doing some demos my friend wants to see.
Thanks,
Brad
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Online Ianab

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Re: I want to build a table
« Reply #43 on: January 28, 2012, 05:16:16 PM »
Q-Sawn material moves less with changes in moisture, but this doesn't mean you can't use flat sawn, you just have to allow for it to move slightly more.

Alternating the growth rings is to do with the wood cupping with changes in moisture. If the growth rings are all the same way then the whole top could cup slightly. But if you alternate them, and cupping will show as slight 'corrugations" in the top. Which is going to be more of a problem?

Some suggest it doesn't really matter.

Ian
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Offline SwampDonkey

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Re: I want to build a table
« Reply #44 on: January 28, 2012, 06:48:41 PM »
Depends on how the top is secured. Done right it don't matter how it's sawed and it won't cup. My tops could be either quarter or flat sawn and they aren't cupping. ;) It will more likely cup sitting on the side in the shop while your preparing the carcass. Once attached and done right, nope. ;)
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Offline WDH

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Re: I want to build a table
« Reply #45 on: January 28, 2012, 08:21:15 PM »
Generally, I keep the top in the clamps and stored so that air can circulate freely on all sides of the top.  Then, I attach it.  It is best to make the top at the very last so that you can sand and install it when the glue is dry.  Leaving a wide top sitting around is asking for trouble.  The worst thing that you can do is make the top first (which we always want to do because it is the most fun) and lay it down somewhere with only one surface exposed to the air for weeks or months  :).  This is a recipe for cupping.
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Offline Axe Handle Hound

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Re: I want to build a table
« Reply #46 on: January 29, 2012, 07:36:46 PM »
Understanding wood movement is the critical key to enjoyable woodworking.  Ian and SD are exactly correct, if done right the top should remain flat.  If done wrong you'll have a nice start on a canoe. I used quartersawn boards for my table and added the central cleat with lag bolts and the small cleats on the leg assemblies for additional insurance against cupping seeing as how I do not air condition my house and the seasonal humidity swings are pretty big.  And WDH is exactly right, try to have your leg assemblies ready and waiting.   Leaving a wide glue up laying around is just asking for a visit from our old friend Frustration.  I've known people who laid table tops flat on the garage floor for a few days before getting to them.  Really, really bad idea. 

Offline Dodgy Loner

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Re: I want to build a table
« Reply #47 on: February 02, 2012, 10:12:57 AM »
My table top glue up, the board don't have to be quarter sawn do they?  I mean, I can use flat sawn pieces so long as I alternate the ring direction correct?

Don't go out of your way to alternate the grain. Put the prettiest side on top. If the grain happens to be alternating, that's fine, but it's also fine if it's all running the same direction.
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Offline beenthere

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Re: I want to build a table
« Reply #48 on: February 02, 2012, 10:24:33 AM »
Dodgy
That isn't the usual response from a woodworker (to ignore the grain alternating).

Are you also suggesting that allowing the cup to accumulate won't present a problem with the top?

Of course much depends on the flatness of the grain in the glued boards, the species, strip widths, and the equalibrium moisture content before and after glue-up.
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Offline SwampDonkey

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Re: I want to build a table
« Reply #49 on: February 02, 2012, 11:16:53 AM »
I do as Dodgey does. I've never seen a top warp yet, once it's attached properly.
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Online Ianab

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Re: I want to build a table
« Reply #50 on: February 02, 2012, 03:02:55 PM »
Quote
Are you also suggesting that allowing the cup to accumulate won't present a problem with the top?

It shouldn't be great as long as both sides of the top are finished in a similar way. You don't need to get a perfect finish on the underside, but make sure it gets a couple of coats of varnish. That keeps both sides changing in moisture in a similar way. The cupping from that is only temporary, but can be quite extreme if the weather changes.

Also, even cupping over the whole top can be controlled by the apron that's supporting the table. (Sliding tabs, slotted screws etc) Alternating cupping of each board gives smaller movement, but a washboard effect that you may be able to see or feel, but can't be controlled.

I glued up a top out of eucalyptus for a little bedside cabinet, and left it leaning against the shed door (inside). Overnight it rained and some water seeped under the door, never reached the piece, but the humidity made it cup about 2" over a 20" wide piece. I look at it and say "Crud, what do I do now?"  I turned it around and leant the other side against the door.  Next day it was straight again, the moisture had evened out. So the changes can be that fast in unfinished wood. Likewise if you finish one side, and not the other, the unfinished side can move that fast, while moisture transfer on the finished side may be 10X slower.

Ian
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Offline WDH

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Re: I want to build a table
« Reply #51 on: February 02, 2012, 08:46:39 PM »
I used to alternate the growth ring pattern (bark side up, bark side down), but I quit doing that and started just picking and matching the best faces.  I have not had any issues, mostly, like SD said, because of proper attachment at the proper time. 
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Offline Ironwood

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Re: I want to build a table
« Reply #52 on: February 02, 2012, 09:10:05 PM »
Putting the same finish (type and number of coats) on each side is technically, creating a balanced "moisture exclusivity". I dont get to carried away with the grain direction, although my tops are 1.5"-2" and pretty heavy. I use heavy walled steel box tube recessed in the underside for dimensional stability.

 One inch stock is pretty reactionary, and can move a good bit especially if not completely dry. Even if your permanent cleats arent done use some "waste" ones until yours are done. The grain vertically is /alot stronger than laid flat. So, orient your cleat grain accordingly.

 I have done some REALLY big glue ups and used vertically grained (quarter sawn), but the grain is fairly unimpressive if it isnt something that will show fleck/ray (white oak) or curly (maple etc,...).



 Also, using threaded inserts instead of simple screws will create a TON more holding power if it DOES want move. The circumference of the insert has a multiplying effect due it's surface area in contact with the wood.


 Ironwood
There is no scarcity of opportunity to make a living at what you love to do, there is only scarcity of resolve to make it happen.- Wayne Dyer


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