A young man I know started a new job about a year ago with one of the local logging companys. He is a recipient of a Fraunk-n-Steen saw(266/630). To be gifted one of those saws a young man has me interested in his well being. With that said, he came to me to tell me of his new job. I told I was happy for him and his family. Then asked him if he had safety equipment. I was concerned because I had no knowledge of his employment as a professional. He had no safety equipment. I gave him some chaps and told him to get a helmet asap. Recently this young man was off work for two weeks. You guessed it, chainsaw got him. Although the accident wasn't serious because he was lucky. It could've been very serious. I have witnessed only one serious saw accident and that was enough for me. Fella came close to bleeding out before he got to the hospital. He wasn't wearing chaps at the time of the accident. A 3/8 rip on the inside of his thigh. I'm submitting this as a reminder to all you pros and a stern directive to the weekenders/hobbiest. Wear your safety equipment. If you don't own any, get some.
Sound advice, couple it with proper training. A chain saw is a dangerous tool in inexperienced hands. I haven't been hurt yet but have scared myself a couple of times.
I just found out Stihl offers a beginner safety package. It includes a set of half wrap chaps, and a hardhat that has screen face shield and ear muffs all for $100.
I have never had any safety stuff and I got bit once. Super lucky it was just a flesh would but it sure gets your attention.
If I remember I will try to get pics of the kit. Definitely worth the $100
About 15 years ago I was getting tired at the end of the day. Should have stopped working but just wanted to finish. Long story short the Homelite 922 chain tip entered my left foot just back of my new steel toed boots. It went in about an inch.
I pulled my boot off ( shouldn't have) wondering how much foot was still in my boot. Lots of blood but no missing parts.
Doctors cleaned and stitch and morphine plus demurral. Couldn't reconstruct, to chew up behind my big toe. No pain now but that part of my foot is fused now.
I'm reminded of that stupidity with every step from now on. :(
Pros know better than to be with out equipment, so when they get cut they are harder on their selves than anyone. Novist, generally speaking, aren't as aware the chainsaw is an unforgiving machine. A 42cc saw and smaller will even have a unassuming look about it. I don't know how much attention this post will get. So far the replies are A+. The young man I spoke of in the original post has went back to work. He loves being a logger and because of that he will be a good one. Maybe,just maybe, his accident coming so early to him will keep him and others who will learn from him safer.
They will all be A+ ;) I still have 2 little marks just below my knee. ::) No loss of blood. Lucky,mighty lucky.
10 years of hand falling the only accident has been a widow Maker to the left shoulder and a full brim hard hat a lucky day. Another thing make dang sure the plastic hard hats or helmet are up to the task of taking a hit from a limb most aren't.
I fit the frequent novice category and ran chain saws for over 30 years without PPE then I joined this forum, the stories woke me up and now I wear chaps and helmet, I know I'm not bullet proof.
All the PPE in the world will not keep you safe if you make constant bad decisions while cutting wood and not learning from your mistakes.
You must pay respect towards your saw in how you handle it, how dangerous it can be, how well you maintain the powerhead and bar/chain.
Never leave a cut tree standing then turning your back on it and walking away from it.
When felling trees work with the wind not against it. Good wind, bad wind.
Always keep checking by looking up, never forget about what's above you when felling or removing trees.
If your not sure don't do it.
Pace yourself, fatigue increases chance of accidents.
What you do while cutting wood you are responsible for the safety of people and property around you.
Good posts from knowledgable people.
I'll never forget the day, August 3rd 1980 when my father in law who was a very intelligent electrical engineer was helping me clear a lot.
He was somewhat controlling and was questioning my PPE and my felling method so as usual i let him have his way.
He grabbed the old steel cased Homelite from my hands and said grab me some wedges.
As i was returning with the wedges a small widow maker fell onto the reving saw and forced the chain DEEP into his leg , worst cut I've ever seen.
Many stitches and he was ok but kinda glad i witnessed this freak accident as it's kept me focused from that day forward.
Welcome to the forum Rebarb.
Quote from: Crusarius on March 28, 2018, 12:49:48 PMDefinitely worth the $100
I wear at least 500$ of PPE on me when falling and even if it would be 1000$ it's always worth it and definitively alot cheaper than a chainsaw accident!
I am continually amazed (appalled) at what I see people do with chainsaws. I recently witnessed a dude place the saw into the wood, one-handed, then get'er going full-throttle (still single-handed) while looking over his shoulder and other stuff. A kickback would have launched the saw--most likely onto his head. :-X :o
where I come from we call that natural selection :)
as long as innocent bystanders are not involved
That is why I tried to talk consumers out of top handle saws. They frequently said they wanted a hand free to hold the log or brace themselves in the tree while limbing. :o
I have a Husq 395XP that I have a great deal of respect for. The manual states something like, "Do you REALLY need a saw this size. You should really consider using a smaller saw...." True story!
:D :o
My 372xp has a similar statement"This saw is capable of severe kickback. Do not operate it unless you have extraordinary cutting needs and experience and special training for dealing with kickback". It goes on to say lower kickback saws are available.
Construction co., demolition co., factories and more will have safety meetings with employees as frequent as once a week. Insurance requires documentation of these meetings. A safety meeting is a reminder. Keeps a person thinking about getting their job done without injuries to anyone. I decided to touch on this subject because of the young man I spoke of in the original post. Just a reminder to use ppe, common sense, and to get someone to help you when needed.
To go with this it may not hurt to put up some of the other types of PPE that's available that you normally don't see unless you're in industry.
Internal chaps great in the summer
Safety Insert Pads For Labonville Lightweight Pants - Pair | Chainsaw Pants | Chainsaw Protective Clothing | www.baileysonline.com (https://www.baileysonline.com/Safety-First-Aid/Chainsaw-Protective-Clothing/Chainsaw-Pants/Safety-Insert-Pads-for-Labonville-Lightweight-Pants---Pair.axd)
Aluminum full brim hard hat
Woodlandpro Full Brim Aluminum Hard Hat - Hi-Viz Orange | Hard Hats | Hard Hats & Helmets | www.baileysonline.com (https://www.baileysonline.com/Safety-First-Aid/Hard-Hats-Helmets/Hard-Hats/WoodlandPRO-Full-Brim-Aluminum-Hard-Hat---Hi-Viz-Orange.axd)
I've only had a couple fairly close calls over the years, one put a good scratch in my good pair of jeans. Nothing will make your hair stand up quite like coming in contact with even a barely moving sharp saw chain. I bought a pair of chaps earlier this year, hopefully they never get put to the test but that's potentially one of the best investments I've made as far as chainsaw related stuff goes.
Quote from: sawguy21 on March 29, 2018, 12:05:01 PM
That is why I tried to talk consumers out of top handle saws. They frequently said they wanted a hand free to hold the log or brace themselves in the tree while limbing. :o
It's a serious concern. The other problem with them is with the handles so close together, you have much less leverage with which to control the saw in a kickback or other unexpected situation.
That's the thing that gets most folk. "Some other unexpected cause"
Quote from: Skeans1 on March 28, 2018, 04:53:56 PM
10 years of hand falling the only accident has been a widow Maker to the left shoulder and a full brim hard hat a lucky day. Another thing make dang sure the plastic hard hats or helmet are up to the task of taking a hit from a limb most aren't.
In all my time in in the Vermont/NY/New Hampshire woods, I've only seen one person wearing an aluminum hard hat. No one seems to use them out here. In that time, I've seen plastic helmets that have taken solid hits and protected the wearer appropriately.
They do need to be replaced after a good hit, and periodically whether they've been hit or not: the plastic can get brittle with age and UV exposure. I believe OSHA requires replacing every 5 years. The average landowner probably does not do this - and probably has no idea of the need for it (on the other hand, the average landowner probably doesn't have their helmet out in the sun and elements 40+ hours per week either).
I've bought or tried different helmets over the years. Last year I bought a Phanner Protos helmet. They're expensive but unlike anything I've used before. The design and function is ahead of anything else I could find. My wife even thought it was worth the money. ;D
The Aluminum Macdonald T helmets popular in the PNW have had a history of punctures from falling debris. But over the last decade or so have been reinforced with a double layer of aluminum riveted into the crown.
They have upgraded to a ratchet adjuster on the suspension recently but still only have 4 point suspension.
Best helmet I own is New Zealand made called a Pacific Kevlar with 6 point suspension and a full 4 webbing chin strap.
The shell is claimed to be 5 times stronger then steel of equal weight.
The helmet I'm wearing in my avatar pic is a Petzl climbing helmet not near as rugged as my Pacific but being brimless the Petzl offers me better visual of my surroundings while up in the canopy.
But the key for safety is the chin strap harness. It keeps the helmet on your head after getting hit by a struck- by, mostly a broken tree limb or top.
Fatality and serious injury reports have shown many forestry workers have had their non- chinstrap helmets knocked off by the first part of the outer twigs of the tree struck by .
Then the solid part hits the unprotected head.
From the head down to the toes.
Our woods is full of Honey Locust trees and I will be cutting a lot of them. Along with the standard PPE, I got some steel lined insoles for all my workboots that I wear out in the woods. Much less expensive than the dedicated steel lined boots. They give me peice of mind when I'm tromping around a big locust I just dropped. My wife still has a scar on her one foot where a locust thorn went through her foot 45 years ago. I do watch where I walk, but out in the woods, especially when alone, safety, safety, SAFETY.
The steel lined insoles tend to be a little thicker than the standard insole so if your boots are nice and tight, they may be a little more snug. I have replaced the insoles in some of my older boots that seem to have streched and were loose and it has given them new life again.
Quote from: HolmenTree on March 30, 2018, 11:31:57 PM
The Aluminum Macdonald T helmets popular in the PNW have had a history of punctures from falling debris. But over the last decade or so have been reinforced with a double layer of aluminum riveted into the crown.
They have upgraded to a ratchet adjuster on the suspension recently but still only have 4 point suspension.
Have you ever seen a limb go through 1" AR2 lexan? A limb flying out at 200' is a rocket no matter what you're in or wear is going to feel the abuse plastic, aluminum, or steel. To New Zealand have you been around their tethering stuff any? I have and have seen a few of the failures because their standards are up to the same as the USA they've had cables snap and shackles fail both the helmet and the tethering you're putting your life on the line.
Limb falling 200 feet your neck will probably be busted anyways.
From what Sam Madsen out of Centralia told me years ago the aluminum T's were taking a lot of punctures, plastics weren't.
Tethering stuff? Explain better
For obvious reasons aluminum hardhats were never an option for me, working in close proximity to high voltage lines. electricuted-smiley
Quote from: HolmenTree on March 31, 2018, 12:28:12 PM
Limb falling 200 feet your neck will probably be busted anyways.
From what Sam Madsen out of Centralia told me years ago the aluminum T's were taking a lot of punctures, plastics weren't.
Tethering stuff? Explain better
Sam is a very nice guy we've done business with them for a lot of years. Tethering is what has killed the hand falling industry it's a cable assist system for cutting as well as yarding it's interesting to see a big leveler on a steep slope that it can't be level on.
Former B.I.L responded as an EMT to a logging C.S incident. Ugly, and it took years
for him to reconcile what he saw and the result of it.
C.S wins........always.
D
Quote from: Skeans1 on March 31, 2018, 04:27:15 PM
Quote from: HolmenTree on March 31, 2018, 12:28:12 PM
Limb falling 200 feet your neck will probably be busted anyways.
From what Sam Madsen out of Centralia told me years ago the aluminum T's were taking a lot of punctures, plastics weren't.
Tethering stuff? Explain better
Sam is a very nice guy we've done business with them for a lot of years. Tethering is what has killed the hand falling industry it's a cable assist system for cutting as well as yarding it's interesting to see a big leveler on a steep slope that it can't be level on.
Feller bunches, processors killed the hand falling industry here. And we got flat ground, no looking back.
Chainsaws always win against flesh, for that matter any moving steel or metal does. This topics purpose is to remind anyone that safety equipment is crucial. The helmet post are good enough that I've read them several times. One point that I believe should be touched on is this. Frequently I work alone. At times I need another set of eyes or help in some form I go get some.
Quote from: knuckledragger on April 01, 2018, 01:46:49 AMFrequently I work alone. At times I need another set of eyes or help in some form I go get some.
That's a good point. It relates to why a cell phone is part of my safety equipment- and why I carry it on my body when working alone with a chainsaw. Even when working with a friend, the difference between having one with you and not can make a big difference in getting First Responders there in an emergency.
Good point John.
Cell phones don't do us any good if they are out of reach.
Even without cell reception in our area 911 still works.
My wife insists I have my cell phone on me in the woods, I said on me,not on the tractor, Yes,it's only a cheap tracphone,but it could save my life.
On some of the companies lands one of us is always required to have service of some sort in case of injury. There's a tracker you can get kind of like that life alert but for timber fallers out here to get help if you push the button. Best cheapest advise that was given to me about falling is never do it alone always fall in pairs and walk out what both of you are doing that day.
Quote from: sawguy21 on March 29, 2018, 12:05:01 PM
That is why I tried to talk consumers out of top handle saws. They frequently said they wanted a hand free to hold the log or brace themselves in the tree while limbing. :o
I don't think, it's a good decision. As per as I know Top handle chainsaws are made for Arborist.
I worked for a tree service company where only half the guys wore helmets/ear protection and absolutely none of them wore chaps..... never understood it, one guy cut his leg with a saw and I told him "see, bet ya wish you had chaps". 2 weeks later he got his knee again without chaps..... still doesn't wear them, cant fix stupid but you can fire it.
Here is why I always wear a hard hat around timber...always! I could knock out the dent, but I've left it as a reminder.
That dent could have been in my head.....widow maker and I had scouted up several times.
I was working a show once in CO, no bosses there, which already is a violation in WA or OR, but this was CO......cowboy loggin'. New guy cut his leg open bad. I had him put pressure on it while I drove him down the mountain. Nearly bled to death in my rig. They saved him, went back up to work after I knew he was stable, lost a whole day's scale. Owners thanked me for taking him the next day.....never even offered to pay my gas. I should have turned them in to OSHA.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/40584/Widow_maker.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1616442505)
Kevin
Kevin - I don;t want to come across as the safety police here. but you ought to consider replacing that helmet. Part of how these helmets get their strength is through the strength of the arch shape, When the arch is deformed, it has lost much of it's strength. You could pound it out, but even a "wrinkle" in the arch compromises its structural integrity.
You're absolutely correct and I know that. That's what the ridges are for in the top design...surface strength reinforcement.
Kevin
Kevin, I am the oddball around here (locally) and wear a full brim Bullard and the exact same face shield you have on your brain bucket. I have two questions: 1) do you have issues when the sun is behind you and reflects off the inside of the screen? I can't hardly see nothin' when that happens. Or did you find a screen that doesn't have that issue? If you did, where did you get it? This problem drives me crazy. It's like welding, I tip it up to see what and where I am cutting, then flip it down before I start the cut. and: B) Is your hat one of the later ones with the extra layer in the crown?
When my hat expires, I plan on an aluminum brain bucket to finish out my cutting days. WHy is it that when we get old we start to really value the safety gear more and get the better stuff as opposed to when we are trying to make a living and we buy what we can afford?
Strange how this thread just came back to life out of nowhere.
As far as the eyes go, I wear those neat little glasses type of things that I've gotten from Madsens when I placed a $200ish order from them. They don't fog up and are easy to remove from my noggin. I'm wanting to say about $13. They even work for taking care of being (slightly) sunglasses. They also offer them in the organized sports model that has the stretch band in the rear. Considering where I live in relationship to them, that's why I had my order fairly large, at least it was fairly large for ME!
I believe that as we age we start to realize we are not invincible. We start looking more closely to the situation and risks. We don't bounce like we once could.
Quote from: Old Greenhorn on March 22, 2021, 07:32:40 PM
Kevin, I am the oddball around here (locally) and wear a full brim Bullard and the exact same face shield you have on your brain bucket. I have two questions: 1) do you have issues when the sun is behind you and reflects off the inside of the screen? I can't hardly see nothin' when that happens. Or did you find a screen that doesn't have that issue? If you did, where did you get it? This problem drives me crazy. It's like welding, I tip it up to see what and where I am cutting, then flip it down before I start the cut. and: B) Is your hat one of the later ones with the extra layer in the crown?
When my hat expires, I plan on an aluminum brain bucket to finish out my cutting days. WHy is it that when we get old we start to really value the safety gear more and get the better stuff as opposed to when we are trying to make a living and we buy what we can afford?
Strange how this thread just came back to life out of nowhere.
No, that's exactly the problem with the screen. That and going into shade;your eyes are screaming for light with the screen until they adjust. My hat is the early model....I never did update. But it does have a new suspension inside. The full brim is a carryover from the rain on the west side where I used to work. The only other professionals I've been around with similar full brims are miners.
I think as we get older, there's a certain amount of wisdom with overview. I know my reflexes are slowing down and I realize the real potential for harm. You only get so many chances in this life, yet you never know the allotted number....lol.
I've tried goggles, safety glasses etc. If they're plastic, they soon get hopelessly scratched. If they are safety glass, I'll break 'em. Plus, you have to carry something to clean them when working in pitchy trees. No thanks....the screen is annoying enough.:-\
Kevin
One of the things Holmentree pointed out can't be emphasized enough
fatigue,
I've seen a few accidents over the years, been a part of a few and seen the results of others pretty close up. Do this kind of thing long enough it's statistics. Not if, but when and how bad. I have a couple of tears in my chaps. Fatigue played a big part of their creation. SO two stories.
One not a saw but relevant. I was working night shift and logging day time. Burning the candle at both ends. Was skidding along a muddy hill side and had slid down to where I needed to cut a limb and a tree to get through .. did that. Was climbing back into the tractor all covered in mud. Slipped. And my arm was stuck on the tractor door as I fell. Like dropping a bucket full of rock...trying to stop it with a string. My arm was that string. Ripped the peck muscle completely at the muscle / connective tissue intersect, a "weight lifters" tear. And destroyed my shoulder. Surgery and rehab followed. A long road. In retrospect....I was dead tired. Something had to give, and better that than in the Snow Plow!
Another one. Arrogance coupled with pride is a dangerous thing in this business. We had a "Stubborn" foreman. And in retrospect the big "front" was really to cover for insecurity and fear of looking less of a man. There was a job where the requirement was to open some sections in concrete head walls. Had one of those big Jonsered based demo chainsaws with a carbide chain, ostensibly for concrete. Most of the fellows were quite experienced with saws all objected to using that. The more the guys pointed out the lack of understanding the more he was determined to show them it was a good idea. And the split second he stuck that tip into the wall it kicked up at full throttle chain speed and hit him right in the face. He had a helmet with a shield. Fortunately the chain missed his face and just CUUUUTTTTTT that helmet as it went sailing over his head. But the body of the saw hit him square, broke the eye socket all to hell, cheek bone, jaw etc. Another long recovery. Not sure it will ever be complete. Haven't seen him in several years.
Second thing Holmentree said that made "impact" for me was in effect PPE's can't always make up for bad decisions
Coincidentally i just ordered a replacement 3m peltor screen for my petzl arborist helmet.
I wear all safety equipment now, but back in about 1975 or so, nicked my right kneecap, no bone just skin, 10 stitches.
No chaps in those days.
Always wore a hard hat tho and it saved me 3 times from serious injury.
All three due to carelessness.
An old friend of mine now deceased told me that we who work in the woods are just one mistake away from the great beyond.
Quote from: Real1shepherd on March 22, 2021, 10:05:47 PM
No, that's exactly the problem with the screen. That and going into shade;your eyes are screaming for light with the screen until they adjust. My hat is the early model....I never did update. But it does have a new suspension inside. The full brim is a carryover from the rain on the west side where I used to work. The only other profession I've been around with similar full brims are miners.
....
OK, then it's not just me. I will continue the search for a better screen, just in case I get lucky. I had a plastic one...once...but it took a hit from a branch and broke and the broken edge cut my cheek. After that I switched to metal, when they get hit they bend up all to heck, but stay together. You can straighten them and finish the day. I prefer the full brim for snow and rain and the little twigs that come down. Before I switched I would have all kinds of junk down the back of my shirt. Not as much anymore.
I have been thinking on a second hat to keep in the truck. I don't always work out of the truck and my gear lives in the Mule. Sometimes I will be out on errands or something and see a buddy working on a lot and stop to say 'hi', but I don't have a hat in the truck. It's poor form (and stupid) to walk into somebodies job site without the right gear on. I should just get a second one and leave one in the truck.
Quote from: HolmenTree on March 28, 2018, 10:52:27 PM
All the PPE in the world will not keep you safe if you make constant bad decisions while cutting wood and not learning from your mistakes.
.......
This comment was made 3 years ago and I have been meaning to reply ever since (hey, I've been busy). This is so true and I liken it to the way we taught new Firefighters about their gear and tried to explain how it did not make them invincible. If you've ever worn the gear in a working fire, you know it affords a lot of protection, but we found that people were taking stupid risks thinking the gear would 'save them'. I saw too many melted face masks and warped helmets coming out of training evolutions and we needed to find a way to make it clear. We finally explained that the only thing your gear could do for you when things went wrong was
maybe allow for an open casket at your funeral instead of a closed one. That seemed to make the point.
Yes, we had fires where things went wrong for a moment in spite of the best tactics and after the fire had to put thousands of dollars of bunker gear out of service and replace it. But I can say it was cheaper then putting 3 guys in the hospital and much easier than visiting their families to give them the news. That's what the PPE is for.
The gear is just there for that singular moment in time when things go wrong in spite of all your caution and care. It will minimize the injury if it works well, but it will rarely avoid it. Additionally, it won't work at all if you don't wear it.
Newbs always ask me what's that for, and point at the length of spare starter cord with an eye lashed into the end laced through one of my belt loops when I walk into the woods.
And I tell them it's a spare starter cord.... cord breaks you can replace it. Recoil breaks you can undo the cover and wrap it around the pulley and get a start that way.
And then I tell them that the reason why it's hanging from a belt loop on my jeans is a tourniquet that's not right there with you ain't much use as all.
Some of them get it, some of them are either stupid or immortal.
Learnt that one from all the old time fellers around here... one of those things you don't think of until maybe you need it (and hopefully you never do)
All the safety equipment in the world won't save you from fatigue and stupid decisions. I never work more than eight hrs a day with a chainsaw. You can feel the fatigue set in around that time(or before)....that's when you are more likely to make stupid decisions that will bring you physical harm or death. Trust your body.....when it's fatigued, it's trying to tell ya something.
I knew an old faller in OR....worked with him in my youth. In his 60's one day he went to work on a windy day. I'll never know what happened exactly because I had moved on to another show. He was killed felling. My general rule on wind is if the tree tops are circling from wind, I don't fall. He was at the top of our trade......
Kevin
Heavy plastic mesh seems to be a bit better as far as light goes. It's more visible on a cloudy day, but doesn't seem to light up as bad when the sun hits it. When my metal mesh rusts out on my Petzl, I'm gonna try modding a Husqvarna plastic screen to fit in the mounts. A lot cheaper too. That faceshield for the Petzl cost me $78. Kinda ridiculous, but it's a nice convenient system.
Quote from: lxskllr on March 23, 2021, 03:03:50 PM
Heavy plastic mesh seems to be a bit better as far as light goes. It's more visible on a cloudy day, but doesn't seem to light up as bad when the sun hits it. When my metal mesh rusts out on my Petzl, I'm gonna try modding a Husqvarna plastic screen to fit in the mounts. A lot cheaper too. That faceshield for the Petzl cost me $78. Kinda ridiculous, but it's a nice convenient system.
The screen on my Husqvarna helmet is metal (I think aluminum, but I have not checked). They are (or at least were?) available in either metal or plastic.
My metal one is a black or dark gray color. I've never noticed a glare problem, but I've wearing it with a Husqvarna plastic helmet which might shade things differently?
The steel wire company I work for used to have an aluminum screen cloth manufacturing plant in MS. They would put different coatings on the screen depending on customer specs: Black epoxy coating was the most popular, they also did gray, orange and probably other colors (the orange was for K&N Filters). I wonder if hardware store screening is appropriate, and if they stock it in black. (note that "charcoal that many sell is really more of a gray than a black).
I believe McMaster Carr sells epoxy coated steel mesh (and in small quantities such as 1'x1' or 1'x2' pieces). I'm not sure who might offer it in stainless or aluminum, if either of those interest you.
My Husky helmet came with a metal screen, and it rusted out. I ordered a new one from Baileys, and debated between plastic and metal. I ended up going with metal cause the first one was good enough, and a known quantity. They ended up sending me a plastic one. The package said it was metal on one side, and the other side said plastic; mismarked. It looks cheaper, and doesn't fit tight, so it gets waves in it, but it's alright.
My Petzl has even finer mesh than the Husky, and it seems to light up worse. My intention was to take the Husky screen, and cut new slots so it fits in the Petzl frame, but your idea of buying screening is interesting. I'd have to cut it to shape and glue it on, but it wouldn't be hard to do. I'm gonna give that some thought. I might start with the plastic Husky cause I can use that on my ground helmet anyway, and if it doesn't work out, get some raw screening to fit to the Petzl. I *don't* want to pay another $78 for sure.
I never thought about plastic mesh.:P But the only things I really take care of are my saws. The rest of the stuff gets serious abuse.....I kinda think I'd break a plastic screen pretty easily. And probably the reason why Madsen's only sells metal.
What I've learned on saw forums over the yrs is that if someone thinks they have a better wheel, let them roll with it. 8)
Kevin
The plastic is pretty supple, and it has more give than the metal, so any impacts will be attenuated to help prevent penetration. The grid has a larger hole pattern, so smaller particles will get in easier I guess, but I haven't had any issues. I'm happy enough with it. I've had sticks penetrate the metal screen while brushcutting. Not all the way through, but they were stuck in the screen. That hasn't happened with the plastic yet, but it isn't a frequent occurrence, so it maybe just hasn't happened yet.
edit:
Was just thinking about how you could test it. It wouldn't be hard for an amateur to make a toothpick shooter to see which shield protected more. Keep increasing the pressure til one of the shields failed. I'll have to give that some thought. Might be a fun and informative project.
Quote from: lxskllr on March 23, 2021, 05:18:04 PM
The plastic is pretty supple, and it has more give than the metal, so any impacts will be attenuated to help prevent penetration. The grid has a larger hole pattern, so smaller particles will get in easier I guess, but I haven't had any issues. I'm happy enough with it. I've had sticks penetrate the metal screen while brushcutting. Not all the way through, but they were stuck in the screen. That hasn't happened with the plastic yet, but it isn't a frequent occurrence, so it maybe just hasn't happened yet.
edit:
Was just thinking about how you could test it. It wouldn't be hard for an amateur to make a toothpick shooter to see which shield protected more. Keep increasing the pressure til one of the shields failed. I'll have to give that some thought. Might be a fun and informative project.
Well, you find what works for you. The plastic I had, and the metal I use now both had the same (fine) mesh size and maybe the plastic is OK for branches and chips pushing at your face, but I had a 3/4" spring loaded branch snap up and whack me silly when I was bucking a tree and it broke that shield in half and as I swung my head out of instinct the broken edge sliced my jaw/face. Not bad, but annoying. Never again. Had similar stuff with the metal but I just take a second and bend it back into shape. All I know is what works for me. I like the shield because of branches and face protection, but do not like that most dust that gets in my eyes comes up under the shield, glasses might fix that but the fogging and sweat issues are worse. Nothing is perfect, it's all a matter of choice.
Quote from: lxskllr on March 23, 2021, 03:46:38 PM, and if it doesn't work out, get some raw screening to fit to the Petzl. I *don't* want to pay another $78 for sure.
Which helmet? I have a petzl vertex and got the replacement 3m screen from baileys for $20. Any more and id have got another helmet. Waiting on a tougher piece of mesh to land in my lap and re-screen the old one.
Anyone use solid lexan screens? Id like to try one but not if they just fog.
I have the Vertex Vent. Is the screen generic on these helmets? I didn't see any replacement screens specified for the Vertex without buying the whole system again. If you can get whatever screen to fit the frame, that would be awesome.
I also have the flip down visor for the helmet. I got that cause the screen wasn't available yet when I bought the redesigned helmet. I kinda wanted to try it anyway, cause it's a nice trim setup. It's terrible. You can feel the heat hit your face as soon as you flip it down. Almost zero air movement. A chemical type shield in place of the screen would probably be a bit better since there's more of a gap, but I think it would still trap heat, and I suspect would get pretty splattered with sweat, and may even attract sawdust from static.
As usual lots of great experience and info being shared here.
I wear the full wrap husky chaps , chainsaw boots , husky helmet with screen face shield , and gloves . I also shut er down as soon as I notice I am tiring at all . I always have a small first aid kit with me that includes a tourniquet .
I do not rely on any of my PPE or the first aid kit . They are both for just in case , because we all know s*#t happens . I do rely on my ability to do things in the safest possible manner and to know when I am done for the day .
A few fellas I know like to kid me about the safety gear but I tell them I am pretty much always alone in the woods and would rather wear it just in case then lay there alone bleeding out because I falsely thought wearing PPE made me less of a man .
Quote from: lxskllr on March 24, 2021, 07:56:12 AM
I have the Vertex Vent. Is the screen generic on these helmets? I didn't see any replacement screens specified for the Vertex without buying the whole system again. If you can get whatever screen to fit the frame, that would be awesome.
I also have the flip down visor for the helmet. I got that cause the screen wasn't available yet when I bought the redesigned helmet. I kinda wanted to try it anyway, cause it's a nice trim setup. It's terrible. You can feel the heat hit your face as soon as you flip it down. Almost zero air movement. A chemical type shield in place of the screen would probably be a bit better since there's more of a gap, but I think it would still trap heat, and I suspect would get pretty splattered with sweat, and may even attract sawdust from static.
I think mine is vertex vent also. Look in the top right corner of the screen frame for some casting numbers. "V1A-xxx"
3M Peltor Replacement Metal Mesh Screen V1A-10P (https://www.baileysonline.com/3m-peltor-replacement-metal-mesh-screen-v1a-10p-35715.html)
It is a crazy hot helmet for being named the vent. Maybe they mean the wearer will need to vent about it.
Quote from: mike_belben on March 23, 2021, 07:30:13 AM
Coincidentally i just ordered a replacement 3m peltor screen for my petzl arborist helmet.
Got mine about 2 weeks ago......figured I needed it working this ice damage.
Wudman
Quote from: mike_belben on March 24, 2021, 01:23:22 PM
I think mine is vertex vent also. Look in the top right corner of the screen frame for some casting numbers. "V1A-xxx"
3M Peltor Replacement Metal Mesh Screen V1A-10P (https://www.baileysonline.com/3m-peltor-replacement-metal-mesh-screen-v1a-10p-35715.html)
It is a crazy hot helmet for being named the vent. Maybe they mean the wearer will need to vent about it.
I'll check it out tomorrow. My stuff's in the truck, and it's currently dumping rain. Mine has pretty big vents, and shutters you can slide up to block them. I only do that on the coldest days. Helmets kinda suck regardless though. The vents work well to catch a bit of a breeze, but those are all too rare in the mid Atlantic summer. I'll take what I can get though.
Mine's my everything helmet. I got it to replace my construction hardhat, and I use it for climbing, or ground stuff when I'm at work. I rarely use my ground helmet anymore. I finally got fed up with my MSA hardhat always falling off, and figured I needed a climbing helmet anyway, so I picked it up. Best purchase I've made for work in a long time. Seems like a lot of construction companies are switching to 'work at height' helmets. The Kask Super Plasma is the one I generally see. I've never held one, but I'm not sure I'd like it. They have foam linings, and I'm not too hip on wearing an insulated cooler(heater) on my head in the summer. I'd like to see one in person, but I'm pretty happy with the Petzl.
My Uncle always said when I was running a saw...."It's tryin to get ya, it's tryin to get ya"
I say that to myself every time I fire one up.
Greenhighlander, good job on the PPE!!! I have almost the same thing, no screen. Got a cell phone on ya too? :) I have one on me. Let them laugh, we are safe doing what we are doing.
I haven't had a cell in many years . There is no reception where I live or on my much more remote land. On my remote land , like a lot of the island , even if you did have a cell and reception it would take so long for them to get to you that it wouldn't really matter . Thats why I laugh when they use the " safety " reason for us to pay millions in tax dollars for cell towers , so a private company can charge us for using the network we paid for haha
Quote from: Upstatewoodchuc on March 22, 2021, 01:00:42 PM
I worked for a tree service company where only half the guys wore helmets/ear protection and absolutely none of them wore chaps..... never understood it, one guy cut his leg with a saw and I told him "see, bet ya wish you had chaps". 2 weeks later he got his knee again without chaps..... still doesn't wear them, cant fix stupid but you can fire it.
Literally they are mad!
Quote from: Greenhighlander on March 24, 2021, 10:08:53 AMA few fellas I know like to kid me about the safety gear but I tell them I am pretty much always alone in the woods and would rather wear it just in case then lay there alone bleeding out because I falsely thought wearing PPE made me less of a man .
Exactly. The false macho stuff does get old after a while. My usual response is something along the lines of: "I plan to be around to see my kids grow up, have full use of all of my limbs while doing so, and not be so disfigured that any future grandkids are afraid to come give me a hug." If that does not shut them up, I just shake my head and walk away.
It's interesting since this thread came up about this subject. I am guilty as charged regarding ppe. Been pretty lax with it and have never had any close calls all these years and I've cut a lot of wood. Have always taken a good approach to the saw.
I was drop starting the 820 J-Red I picked up the other day hanging on to the rear handle and it barked to life as the bar/chain snuck down and caught my pant leg just above my boot and did a bit of a number on my pants. Didn't touch my leg at all. That kind woke me up about this stuff and the fact I am 65yrs old this year and well you get the picture. Going to look into this.
Other point made is it doesn't have to be in the bush where stuff happens, this was in my shop firing it up for the first few times.
When I see someone drop start a chainsaw, I figure they are ignorant, uninformed, untrained, a novice, a rookie, or they know better and just don't care.
It is a sure sign of inexperience or experienced complacency.
I taught my Son-in-law how to safely start a chainsaw and gave him all the PPE he needed to protect himself. He still drop starts it, so he is neither ignorant, uninformed, or untrained. It must be complacency.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/IMG_6606~0.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1585090705)
The chainsaw was not even running.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/IMG_6609~0.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1585090688)
But the "Quick Care" was open and I got stitched up. :-X
My new chainsaw chaps were neatly folded in the chainsaw box. As WDH just said: Complacency,
Quote from: WDH on March 27, 2021, 01:24:02 PM
When I see someone drop start a chainsaw, I figure they are ignorant, uninformed, untrained, a novice, a rookie, or they know better and just don't care.
It is a sure sign of inexperience or experienced complacency.
I taught my Son-in-law how to safely start a chainsaw and gave him all the PPE he needed to protect himself. He still drop starts it, so he is neither ignorant, uninformed, or untrained. It must be complacency.
I've been called all of those at various points in life :D. But this time I'll go with complacency.
Quote from: Magicman on March 27, 2021, 01:28:23 PM
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/IMG_6606~0.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1585090705)
The chainsaw was not even running.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/IMG_6609~0.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1585090688)
But the "Quick Care" was open and I got stitched up. :-X
My new chainsaw chaps were neatly folded in the chainsaw box. As WDH just said: Complacency,
To quote Ozzy Osborne yelling to his wife, "Sharon, that's gonna leave a mauk"!
Keep in mind, very poor English accent.
I learned not to do it the hard way, fortunately the only thing it marked were my jeans. Never did that again!!
Well, score another (possible) soul saved by the Forestry Forum. I read back through this thread and I believe it was @John Mc (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=6836) that mentioned expiration dates on helmets and pu the thought into my subconscious, in fact, I mentioned it myself in a replay further down. Well today I pulled my helmet off as I was packing it in and thought, "Hey, I wonder when this hard hat does expire?" SO I got out a magnifying glass and checked the date codes. Turns out my hat was made on January 25 of....2010. Which means it expired 6 years ago. It's still in great shape and had never had a significant hit, although it has saved me from a lot of snapping branches and some small overhead stuff. Nothing that took me to my knees as far as I can recall.
I don't cut for a company and am not worried at all about OSHA any longer. But I ain't stupid either, my hat spends a lot of time in the sun regardless. I have been wanting to get a skull bucket and be done with it anyway, so I guess it's time to go shopping. >:( :) :-\
So anyway, thanks for the conversation and bringing this up!
Quote from: WDH on March 27, 2021, 01:24:02 PM
When I see someone drop start a chainsaw, I figure they are ignorant, uninformed, untrained, a novice, a rookie, or they know better and just don't care.
It is a sure sign of inexperience or experienced complacency.
I taught my Son-in-law how to safely start a chainsaw and gave him all the PPE he needed to protect himself. He still drop starts it, so he is neither ignorant, uninformed, or untrained. It must be complacency.
I guess I don't know the term, what is "drop start"? And I choose "uninformed"!
Four yaers ago my dad was limming some cedar.
Came from underneath with the tip.
Had a ADMIN EDIT jonsered 630 with a screwed chainbreak
It wasn't forgiving.
Caught the tip and bingo.
Caught him right in the forehead.
Left a good scare.from the hairline top of the nose
Hes not running that saw anymore
Quote from: lazyflee on March 28, 2021, 06:00:51 PM
I guess I don't know the term, what is "drop start"? And I choose "uninformed"!
Cord in one hand, saw in the other. You drop the saw(stays in hand), and pull the cord at the same time. I don't see a problem with it with modern saws. If the chainbrake's set, what's it gonna do? What's the alternative if you're up in a tree? That said, my first start is usually on the ground, with the foot through the handle style. After that I drop start. My top handle's always drop started. Anything else would be less safe.
It is fine as long as the brake is set. I got in the habit of doing it before chain brakes, I am left handed so dropped with my right hand and pulled with my left. The moving chain caught my pant leg (no chaps in the shop) but didn't collect any hide. Never did that again! :o
Quote from: WDH on March 27, 2021, 01:24:02 PM
When I see someone drop start a chainsaw, I figure they are ignorant, uninformed, untrained, a novice, a rookie, or they know better and just don't care.
It is a sure sign of inexperience or experienced complacency.
I taught my Son-in-law how to safely start a chainsaw and gave him all the PPE he needed to protect himself. He still drop starts it, so he is neither ignorant, uninformed, or untrained. It must be complacency.
Curious how you would recommend starting a large saw with a long bar on steep ground other then drop starting them?
Quote from: Skeans1 on March 28, 2021, 10:18:49 PMCurious how you would recommend starting a large saw with a long bar on steep ground other then drop starting them?
Well, there is always this: left hand on the front handle, bar pointed ahead and to the left, rear handle tucked under your right thigh with the front of your left thigh clamping it in place while you pull the starter with your right hand. (and yes, it is quite possible to do this in a way that does not put certain sensitive body parts at risk.)
Quote from: John Mc on March 28, 2021, 10:30:13 PM
Quote from: Skeans1 on March 28, 2021, 10:18:49 PMCurious how you would recommend starting a large saw with a long bar on steep ground other then drop starting them?
Well, there is always this: left hand on the front handle, bar pointed ahead and to the left, rear handle tucked under your right thigh with the front of your left thigh clamping it in place while you pull the starter with your right hand. (and yes, it is quite possible to do this in a way that does not put certain sensitive body parts at risk.)
Try that with a 60" or longer bar you're not going to lift it like this without causing back issues.
Quote from: John Mc on March 28, 2021, 10:30:13 PM
Quote from: Skeans1 on March 28, 2021, 10:18:49 PMCurious how you would recommend starting a large saw with a long bar on steep ground other then drop starting them?
Well, there is always this: left hand on the front handle, bar pointed ahead and to the left, rear handle tucked under your right thigh with the front of your left thigh clamping it in place while you pull the starter with your right hand. (and yes, it is quite possible to do this in a way that does not put certain sensitive body parts at risk.)
That's how I do it, very stable and easy on an old man's shoulders. Also no issues if the pull card stalls halfway out. Just remember its the inside of the right thigh, not your right groin.
@Old Greenhorn (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=42103)
That can work if the ground is good and the bars are on the shorter end but even something like a 32 on bad ground you're not doing that. Another good situation is how would you start a saw on a spring board? How would you start something on bad ground or bad footing? I've cut ground where you're either in a hole with the stump or you're dropping off the side for a tumble.
After going on about how safe I try to be you guys have me thinking I am starting my saws in an unsafe way now
I usually just hold the saw with my left hand and pull the cord with my right . Obviously with the chain nowhere near me . But ya , am I wrong doing this ? I only run 18" and 24" bars if that matters . My 395 with the decomp pressed in is less of a pull then my little 445 .
Quote from: Skeans1 on March 28, 2021, 11:08:00 PM
Quote from: John Mc on March 28, 2021, 10:30:13 PM
Well, there is always this: left hand on the front handle, bar pointed ahead and to the left, rear handle tucked under your right thigh with the front of your left thigh clamping it in place while you pull the starter with your right hand. (and yes, it is quite possible to do this in a way that does not put certain sensitive body parts at risk.)
Try that with a 60" or longer bar you're not going to lift it like this without causing back issues.
So rest the bar tip on something. As for the back issues: how is lifting the saw to start as I described any tougher on your back than drop starting? If anything, it's easier on my back. The weight of the saw is in closer to my body and the saw is stationary and tightly controlled. With a drop start you have the added strain of arresting the downward momentum of the saw that you started with the drop. As someone with ongoing back and neck issues which started with an injury back when I was about 20, I've adopted the method I described in part because it's
easier on my back.
Quote from: Skeans1 on March 28, 2021, 11:28:57 PM
@Old Greenhorn (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=42103)
That can work if the ground is good and the bars are on the shorter end but even something like a 32 on bad ground you're not doing that. Another good situation is how would you start a saw on a spring board? How would you start something on bad ground or bad footing? I've cut ground where you're either in a hole with the stump or you're dropping off the side for a tumble.
Since I'm not doing any cutting on a spring board, it's not an issue for me. I'm not claiming it's the only way to start a saw.
If what you are doing works for you, go for it. I'm not the one who made the ingorance/untrained/rookie comment. I do recognize that things can be different different with the kinds of things you are cutting, and the equipment you are using.
I have back and neck problems anyway, and by personal experience (as well as the input from my physical therapist wife who has grown tired of "fixing me") I know that the "clamp between the legs method" causes less issues with my back than drop starting. It is arguably safer, since the saw is more tightly controlled. I'm sticking with it in any situation where it is possible to do so.
@John Mc (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=6836)
I remember sitting through a class a few years put on by Stihl they told us the same thing till one of the guys raised his hand and asked exactly what I just did their response says volumes they don't do it nor should we. The reason I ask about a 60" bar is it's still some what a common place to run something that long say on a 3120 or 088 sized saw I'm sure as heck not putting that long bar on something then in my thigh. When drop starting my saw don't move most of the time it's a roll style drop where the power head does all the work for you vs you're trying to hold all that weight in the air on on something then crank up a saw. Am I saying this way is correct no but I do know a lot of situations where the GOL style of safety rules will not work from being in industry and actually falling timber.
Man I guess I'm one of the only ones who don't do either one. I do left hand on handle, right foot on the flat part next to the throttle, pull cord. Nothing jumps around, chain stays off the ground with even the longest bar, and you can pull the hardest starts with plenty of force and do it many many times if needed.
The thing is, Skeans, you have thought this through and do what works best for you in the conditions that you work in. You are very experienced and have made a decision based on options. I respect that.
However, you are not the normal chainsaw operator who has little experience at your level, has never had training, does not understand the risks, probably does not wear all the proper PPE, likely does not understand the potential risks, and has not made an informed decision based on the options.
I knew that my comments would generate a good bit of debate and discussion. If that discussion has caused anyone to think about how they are doing things and how they can be safe or safer, then it has been worth it.
Quote from: Old Greenhorn on March 28, 2021, 11:16:23 PM
Quote from: John Mc on March 28, 2021, 10:30:13 PM
Quote from: Skeans1 on March 28, 2021, 10:18:49 PMCurious how you would recommend starting a large saw with a long bar on steep ground other then drop starting them?
Well, there is always this: left hand on the front handle, bar pointed ahead and to the left, rear handle tucked under your right thigh with the front of your left thigh clamping it in place while you pull the starter with your right hand. (and yes, it is quite possible to do this in a way that does not put certain sensitive body parts at risk.)
That's how I do it, very stable and easy on an old man's shoulders. Also no issues if the pull card stalls halfway out. Just remember its the inside of the right thigh, not your right groin.
There is always a right way, and there is always a wrong way, but I would be a fool if I thought there was only one way. I just know what works for me and I have found to be safe, reliable, and the least impact on my back and shoulders.
Drop starting for me can be abusive to my body, first, I have to raise the saw up high enough for the drop, then I have to throw that weight back down while yanking on that cord. If it grabs I wind up jerking my right shoulder and if it starts easy the engine and tip weight can swing around and not being as strong as I used to, controlling that mass can sometimes be tricky. It all happens so fast. ;D
With the method I use, if the cord 'catches' the shock is partly absorbed by the inside of my thigh, not entirely by my shoulder. It just works for me.
As far as footing goes. I have never worked off a springboard, so I can't begin to enter a dog in that fight. But bad footing is something we have everywhere here with steep ground, loose broken shale, and drop oss. (WHy do big straight trees prefer to grow on the edge of a 30' drop all the time?) The method I use allows me to plant my feet wherever I am and know that I will not get pushed off balance.
Of course I don't swing the big saws like you do and defer to your experience on that. The biggest I have (or want) is a 372 with a 28" bar and drop starting that is no fun for me. Sometimes I do rest that tip up on a log or branch to start it when I am tired and weary.
I don't see this as a "right vs. wrong" issue, I see this as a "what works safely and efficiently for you" issue. Certainly I am not trying to change any minds, just sharing what works for me. :)
👍
i am not captain safety by any means.. i try to make myself get all suited up for battle but sometimes just don't for who knows why, call it anything you like. stubborn and stupid probably.
i had a mentor way back who was an old man by then, but in the 70s he was a pro surfer at some of the most deadly breaks known at the time, and i was learning to shape surfboards. we were talking about a really clean little wave that was very easy to get to and very public and always empty when every other spot was packed. one day i paddled out and surfed it just a tiny bit.. the whole place was full of jagged reef crops that went right up to the surface and i lost a toenail to one. we talked about it and i said something about 'if i wipeout' and his answer was 'don't wipe out. just stop thinking that way.' he was a legend and i was a pup listening to some zen buddha-ness so i just was like okay he is the legend here just obey him. fine.. no wipe out. just don't. and i think it just really helped me in surfing, in the marines, in downhill mountain bikes, atv hare scrambles etc. not to say i didn't wipe out, i had plenty of minor injuries, blood, concussions, etc but somehow, maybe just by God's grace, not major ones. I'm sure this sounds silly, but you can't armor up to go surf. you can do it or not do it, thats it.. so theres gotta be something of a mental armor, a survival plan for the inevitable gone wrongs that happen when you get out of bed.
guys talk about training a lot. when i was 13 i started being the after school cleanup boy at a machine shop that closed half hour after i punched in so it was just me. there was this dumb kid, hiding in the dark and just turning on old machinery cautiously that i had no idea how to run. i ground gears and crashed chucks, snapped cutters, flung chuck jaws into the ceiling. but i guess in those days of WW2 vintage equipment before warning labels and guards the mentality was theyre you're fingers, its your job to keep them out of the chuck and again.. its a mental thing. a PTO shaft has 500 warnings not to run it without the sleeves on. well you can't put sleeves over a lathe chuck. you go putting on a bunch of protective equipment to run a lathe and you're just gonna have it suck your hand in. thats a position where your safety equipment is not sticking a body part where it don't belong. this bean picker/snowblower/square baler will eat your fingers kid, so don't feed it any if you aim to keep them.
for the past 20 years or so i have inquired of every missing digit, appendage or major scar i have seen. at first it felt like i was being offensive but all have responded very kindly. every single maimed person i have met was eager to tell their story, to see someone cared and had empathy and have a chance to maybe prevent someone else from the same fate. other than wrecks or violence the overwhelming majority have been "wasn't paying attention."
my safety program is that i hang onto every saw like an alligator in a headlock and i think of the entire bar as a light saber. or like a spinning wheel hub in a lathe .. or an electric fence, a stun gun, a machine gun. theres only a few places i can be in relation to this weapon. if I'm not in those places i don't put my finger in the trigger just like a pistol. i just tell myself that my messed up shoulder isn't gonna be able to hold the saw up after the cut so i can't have my leg there whatsoever. when I'm fading i just call it a day. i probably only had a chainsaw for 2 years when i was alone on spurs 50 ft up topping 70 foot pines in an alley. it was stupid but i think it proves out my "just don't wipe out" mental mantra. its a focal point in my brain during the job. don't get hurt, don't get hurt, don't get hurt. i survived the stupid risks (just barely, thanks to my errors) by the constant fear of the tool because it sure wasn't training, safety gear or experience. Gods mercy and my fear.
Its not uncommon today for us spoiled americans to disparage or be amazed by 3rd world nations or people for their work practices. stupid, ignorant, unsafe etc are the words that fly around. have a look at the hoover *DanG construction footage and you'll see americans building under what we today call 3rd world too. your great grandad didn't have a forestry helmet and chaps or an excavator to push a tree right. he may have only had a double bit and a crosscut without even a wedge. and if he lived for you to come around, maybe it was because his safety equipment was in his head. jim kings old threads have made me realize the south americans could log the entire amazon in speedos with nothing but a 090 if they could just get permission. i hope none of us thinks we are smarter or better than them just because we are blessed with wealth, equipment, gear and training. there are plenty of americans that really look the part who i wouldn't want to stand near with a chainsaw. survival is every bit if not more a focused mental strategy. gear is a damage control for when you lose your focus and make a mistake. "don't wipeout!"
not trying to ruffle feathers, just remember to keep your thinking cap on under that spendy helmet.
i guess the cliff notes for the TLDR's is that the number of classes you've attended, country your chaps were made in or expiration date on your brain bucket don't really matter if you daze out, saw through a thin hinge and spin a tree off the wrong direction at your cousin who is bucking wood with his back to you without any gear. or with full body armor.. it don't matter if a tree lands on someone.
not only should we be talking about having the gear on your head, but also about having your head in the game. self awareness and situational awareness. thats number 1 safety protocol to me. I'm logging with a 7 year old. its full focus or pack it up for the day with me.
Quote from: mike_belben on March 29, 2021, 11:06:00 AM
i am not captain safety by any means.. i try to make myself get all suited up for battle but sometimes just don't for who knows why, call it anything you like. stubborn and stupid probably.
There is a lot of wisdom in this Mike. I don't know how many have seen Mike Rowe's little talk on "safety 3rd' in any of it's forms, but I have a lot of respect for Mike for a number of things he does. I subscribe to his safety 3rd for a number of reason's. Maybe some will get something out of this if you haven't seen it before:
Mike Rowe - Safety Third - Whaaat?? - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0RrhkMk2zY)
man that really was good.
i have been saying safety 3rd in my head for a long time, before that vid was ever made, because safety first was a company policy mantra that only applied to first shift. which is why i was always on 3rd shift or weekends and why the jobs i had to do which could not be made osha compliant were done in the middle of the night, out of sight and out of mind in secret. all safety rules were waived for me, wink wink "do the best you can." recently a 30 year old fell into a furnace and died at east penn manufacturing. i gave it some thought and said to my wife.. "that coulda been me babe."
the work order lands on your bench and you get it done or you get shown the exit. the kids want food and the mortgage wants a few weeks pay. so if i cant walk ontop the austemper enclosure 15 feet over a glowing orange heat treat pot because itll melt my shoes, i will just have to rig something up and not fall in. if i cant reach the bulbs on this work order at the top of the manlift then im standing on the rails or putting a ladder on it. if the 16ft ladder only barely gets me up to the metal crosstie then im jumping up from the top of the ladder, climbing into the ties and walking the ancient plank where all the maintenance guys before me walked to change that fanbelt in the coal black forge shop thats over a hammer. ice cold concrete crawl spaces behind pistol backstops at 3am alone.. im your guy. 4x5 steel sheet fell into the framing and needs to be dug out then replaced without losing a finger, call me. 5 hp motor up a 3 story fire escape in the pouring rain with monsterous parking lot light giving your face a sunburn as you crest the top fully blind? lets go. "emergency" is all the work order needs to say. i did it for 10 years and my dad did it for 18, give us the job and get out of the way. like the captain in his vid said, getting home alive is your problem. my only use for a safety poster is to lay on in the mud. the people up front dont care if i live, they care to get their stock options without getting sued or fired. thats who the sign is for. the people who are always safe, to protect them just a little bit more. i learned that when i had to sue the company to get my shoulder surgery.
im jaded and ranting now. yes, put your safety at the very top because no one else will, just dont confuse an abundance of gear, labels and signs as cancelling out a widow maker and creating a safe situation. theyre cancelling out a liability claim.
if you like your fingers dont stick them in the spindle, chuck or snow blower. it doesnt mind eating a glove or apron too. i made a hundred plexi-glass guards so osha could approve of unsafe people working on machines they shouldnt be around. cheap laborers need expensive safety guards to keep their fingers. "margin's are down, we need cheaper humans" said every board of directors ever.
Mike don't get me going. One of the reason's my old boss at my last plant gave me the Machine Guarding SPA job was because he didn't want some overeducated safety nazi doing the task and shutting down equipment because it wasn't 100% safe. He wanted somebody with a few scars and a few close calls under his belt to use a little common sense. Somebody that learned on manual equipment and knew how things worked.
I spent as much or more of my time in that position arguing uphill against corporate about why some new 'thing' they decided was 'good for everyone in every plant' was in fact, adding to the hazard in a lot of cases or simply did not apply. They had 50 plants around the world doing everything from mining, to primary metal production to highly engineered detailed manufacturing and aerospace work. What works in a foundry, does not apply in a toolmaker's shop.
One time our EHS coordinator gave me a memo insisting that all work done on hand grinders and buffers include the use of a face shield over the normal safety glasses. I said 'maybe' but I would look into it. She said 'you have to do it, it's mandatory, corporate says so'. I said 'maybe' and I did look into it to confirm what I thought. I told her I would get the face shields and put them around the shop and would write up a talk for the daily toolbox talk (morning safety meeting). But the direction would be that face shields are to be used for any heavy snagging on castings and such. For fine and smaller work, the operator had to make his/her choice for the appropriate eye protection. I did make it mandatory for wire wheels. She said that's not good enough, 'it's mandatory for everything'. I calmly explained to her that when a skilled person is doing fine small work on an off-hand machine they need to be able to see what they are doing. Adding a big face shield over safety glasses obscures and distorts the view of the work and their fingers. It fogs up besides and is a distraction at best. Making it mandatory creates a new hazard, I argued. Try it yourself, you will see. (SHe never touched a piece of work, so there was little danger of that happening.)
She said corporate won't buy it. I said I don't care, that's what I am doing, I am not going to create hazards for our people. Let them use their brain for a change. She told me to write it up and send it to her so she could relay it up the ladder for approval, which she was certain would not come. So I did as she asked, wrote it up and she sent it right to the the VP of EHS at corporate along with very clear wording that this was not HER idea and she was against it. 2 days later we get a response "That plan makes sense, go with it". She didn't talk to me for a month (which was also nice).
We repeated this scenario numerous times over the 13 years I held that little side job. Once was an emergency notice to shut down and inspect all metal spinning lathes to improve safety after a fatality at some plant somewhere. I got the note, reviewed it and sent her back a note that simply said, "Does not apply here, we have no metal spinning lathes". She argued that every lathe we have cuts metal and that metal spins...therefore.... Aw geez, now I gotta teach her what metal spinning is and we went through the same thing with me writing it up, her sending it off, and it coming back with the response 'yeah, that's fine'. Again a month without her talking to me. ;D
Yeah, don't get me going, or maybe you just did. :D
Quote from: Old Greenhorn on March 31, 2021, 08:35:42 AM
Mike don't get me going. One of the reason's my old boss at my last plant gave me the Machine Guarding SPA job was because he didn't want some overeducated safety nazi doing the task and shutting down equipment because it wasn't 100% safe. He wanted somebody with a few scars and a few close calls under his belt to use a little common sense. Somebody that learned on manual equipment and knew how things worked.
I spent as much or more of my time in that position arguing uphill against corporate about why some new 'thing' they decided was 'good for everyone in every plant' was in fact, adding to the hazard in a lot of cases or simply did not apply. They had 50 plants around the world doing everything from mining, to primary metal production to highly engineered detailed manufacturing and aerospace work. What works in a foundry, does not apply in a toolmaker's shop.
One time our EHS coordinator gave me a memo insisting that all work done on hand grinders and buffers include the use of a face shield over the normal safety glasses. I said 'maybe' but I would look into it. She said 'you have to do it, it's mandatory, corporate says so'. I said 'maybe' and I did look into it to confirm what I thought. I told her I would get the face shields and put them around the shop and would write up a talk for the daily toolbox talk (morning safety meeting). But the direction would be that face shields are to be used for any heavy snagging on castings and such. For fine and smaller work, the operator had to make his/her choice for the appropriate eye protection. I did make it mandatory for wire wheels. She said that's not good enough, 'it's mandatory for everything'. I calmly explained to her that when a skilled person is doing fine small work on an off-hand machine they need to be able to see what they are doing. Adding a big face shield over safety glasses obscures and distorts the view of the work and their fingers. It fogs up besides and is a distraction at best. Making it mandatory creates a new hazard, I argued. Try it yourself, you will see. (SHe never touched a piece of work, so there was little danger of that happening.)
She said corporate won't buy it. I said I don't care, that's what I am doing, I am not going to create hazards for our people. Let them use their brain for a change. She told me to write it up and send it to her so she could relay it up the ladder for approval, which she was certain would not come. So I did as she asked, wrote it up and she sent it right to the the VP of EHS at corporate along with very clear wording that this was not HER idea and she was against it. 2 days later we get a response "That plan makes sense, go with it". She didn't talk to me for a month (which was also nice).
We repeated this scenario numerous times over the 13 years I held that little side job. Once was an emergency notice to shut down and inspect all metal spinning lathes to improve safety after a fatality at some plant somewhere. I got the note, reviewed it and sent her back a note that simply said, "Does not apply here, we have no metal spinning lathes". She argued that every lathe we have cuts metal and that metal spins...therefore.... Aw geez, now I gotta teach her what metal spinning is and we went through the same thing with me writing it up, her sending it off, and it coming back with the response 'yeah, that's fine'. Again a month without her talking to me. ;D
Yeah, don't get me going, or maybe you just did. :D
:D Dont blame ya, it really is a bugger to see with safety glasses AND a scratched up face shield, and you're right, it does create more hazard really, because if I cant even see the work well that's clamped down that's not a great start...especially with angle grinders. The only time I use a face shield is when I'm using cut off wheels.
I worked in the aircraft industry for a few years, @Old Greenhorn (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=42103) story is all too familiar.
"just remember to keep your thinking cap on under that spendy helmet."
Straight up Mike!
About 40 years ago (goodness, I've gotten old) I put a nice little L shaped cut in my Levi's with a saw. Felt a breeze, but nary a scratch on my then hairless leg. Chaps ever since. A couple of years ago I got a set of Arborwear full wrap chaps, really like them.
I almost got a set the other day but wifes driving 140 mile round trip right now and the car needs attention asap.. Its been put off again, ive never had the chance to try chaps on. I wear boots, pants and a forestry helmet.. Not sayin im for being totally wreckless, just to clarify
@mike_belben (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=33722)
Then at least try some of the pads that go inside your jeans it's at least something between you and the chain.
i will eventually get really real chaps, its been on the list but i know it needs to get bumped up a few priority notches.. I'm getting too old to stay so stupid.
Mike, you're not stupid, you're "prioritizing"!
Lots of people don't use chaps or other PPE, just keep in mind what an ER bill runs! (IF you live through it)
one thing that i think will help me is I'm trying to focus on cutting firewood/tsi/hobby logging only in the cool season to keep my tick and chigger issues down. its so hot in summer that sheets of sweat just glue your clothes on and you can't feel that you've got 80 seed ticks marching up a calf until that night in the shower.. then you're begging someone to dig them out of your armpits. i struggle even to put jeans on in summer so to think i have to add chaps on top makes me loathe even owning a pair. but if i just compartmentalize that activity to cool weather it shouldn't be an issue. i hate being cold so maybe i will actually like them. i were double thick insulated carhartt pants with the big leg zippers all winter, probably just like wearing chaps.
summer time i have tons of industrial stuff going full tilt in the shop section of our place and don't venture in the bush much because of the insects. also not to bump fawns for the dogs and coyotes to get.
Quote from: Tacotodd on April 01, 2021, 07:19:30 AMjust keep in mind what an ER bill runs! (IF you live through it)
can't get it out of my mind because I'm still paying for my last one.. no insurance. just laying in the bed itself was $380ish an hour. thats before the doc, the EKG, MRI, Xray, bloodwork...
i own a kenworth that's mine only because the young tree pro that owned it was crushed to death by a tree at 28. so i know.. its real. its deadly work, you need all the advantages you can get and that could be any of us any day.