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wide plank rough sawn flooring over radiant

Started by MReinemann, March 14, 2013, 12:12:11 PM

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MReinemann

Has anyone put wide plank hardwood floors in over radiant heat?  After its dry if course.  Thinking of milling some either red oak or maple and just face nail it down.  Thanks. 
Matt

Jay C. White Cloud

Hey Matt,

I would lay it green and "float it," letting it dry in place.  You could even use live edge if your game for some joint work.  If you just use straight pieces, it is pretty easy, depending on you tooling.  You can cut the "toggle mortise" by hand, (very labor intensive) or use a jointing machine made for it.  If you are curious, look at the Korean style floor in my photo gallery, they are called Maru (전통 마루) in Korean, but there are forms of it all around the world. 

Remember the expression, "lock, stock and barrel?"  Some old floors are part of that expression and would be taken up when you moved, leaving only the sub floor ("dust boards").

If you want to see more examples, go to the "google" search page.  Hit the "images" search then copy and paste: 전통 마루 into the search, you will get many examples of it.  Give me a call if you want to talk details, I should be back at my number next week, or we can chat here... ;D ;)

Regards,

jay
"To posses an open mind, is to hold a key to many doors, and the ability to created doors where there were none before."

"When it is all said and done, they will have said they did it themselves."-teams response under a good leader.

MReinemann

My concern is more about the floor cupping and twisting from the heat coming from underneath.  Been getting conflicting reports.  Those korean style floors look awesome, nice work.
-Matt

Jay C. White Cloud

The tricks to this are really not too complicated if you've seen it done.  Now you and I both know that Red Oak can move around some and shrinks quite a bit, but I think this is still a doable approach.  Give me some more details of the space it will go in:

Size of room:

What is the pre-existing floor system or is this all new work?

Are the Oaks for this project in good shape or will there be lots of knots? (either is acceptable, but need to know for planning.)

You will have to invest in a tool for this that will lock it all together or do a lot of hand mortising.  Dowels can work, but don't do as good a job.

As for doing it over radiant heating, It has more to do with slowing the process of heating down.  Wood is a decent insulator, even hard wood. So the radiant heat wont work as fast and you will have to live with the "lag time." There will be seasonal changes in the wood, that is the other reason to "float" the floor, particularly if you are going for the wide stuff.  Some of my boards in floors I have done push 40".  The widest in my photo gallery are 32" or 34".  You also should really keep the wood in its "family orientation" the way the came off the log.  That mean a little more attention to detail.  "Bark" side should always go up, and "pith" side down; each fletch laying next to each other, and as the floor is slid together, the "toggles," keep things from bowing and "buckling".  I like the Maru pattern, of long boards, (these are actually beams) with short boards in between, but what do you want?
"To posses an open mind, is to hold a key to many doors, and the ability to created doors where there were none before."

"When it is all said and done, they will have said they did it themselves."-teams response under a good leader.

MReinemann

Will be all new work.  It will actually be in a friend of mines chalet great room.  He may just do an engineered floor but i figured id through a post on here to pick peoples brains .

Jay C. White Cloud

Let me know if you do want to use your own wood, I'll help where I can.

Regards,

jay
"To posses an open mind, is to hold a key to many doors, and the ability to created doors where there were none before."

"When it is all said and done, they will have said they did it themselves."-teams response under a good leader.

woodworker9

With all due respect to everyone, you're talking about a bomb that is just waiting to explode.  If it's going to be an extremely rustic floor, where cupping, cracking, and warping won't bother him, then he'll love it.

Otherwise, I have seen these situations used and fail so often that it's not funny.  The radiant heat is going to heat and dry out the bottom side of the boards, creating uneven MC in them, which is going to cause them to move....especially red oak, which moves a lot.

An engineered floor is the way to go here.  That's what I put in after I pulled out the red oak floor that the previous owner put in over radiant heat on my first floor.  It was cupped so badly that as walked over it, it would squeak and drive me and my wife nuts!  I couldn't sneak in the house at 3:00 am after a late night poker game, either, because I'd wake everyone up.

An engineered floor is designed to deal with radiant heat, unlike real wood.

Respectfully,

Jeff
03' LT40HD25 Kohler hydraulic w/ accuset
MS 441, MS 290, New Holland L185

Jay C. White Cloud

Hi Jeff,

I would agree for the most part, that if you take store bought 3/4" red oak, you are going to have a real mess on your hands in short order, for the most part.  Most flooring is graded for aesthetics, not with traditional flooring techniques and methods in mind. Modern engineered lumber is the way to do it if you just want a wood floor, and no hassles in application or future challenges.  Bamboo being one of the best.

Now can you take and lay green wood floors, absolutely, I've done it plenty of times.  Can you lay the same floor over radiant heat, yes, but there is considerable planning and attention to detail, to accomplish it, particularly if they are wide planks.  Would I recommend that the average woodworker tackle a job like this...well it depends on there willingness to spend some time and/or money on tooling and jointing methods and monitory the floor as it goes through it "seasoning process."  If they are, the results can be beautiful and very unique.

Regards,

jay
"To posses an open mind, is to hold a key to many doors, and the ability to created doors where there were none before."

"When it is all said and done, they will have said they did it themselves."-teams response under a good leader.

red oaks lumber

green wood shrinks leaving gaps, also cups. you can say what you want. i would advise against doing that.
green oak in the kiln has a cycle time of 28-30 days. your saying that putting it down on in floor heat and things will be fine? not buying it jay
the experts think i do things wrong
over 18 million b.f. processed and 7341 happy customers i disagree

Jay C. White Cloud

That's o.k.,  :)  most of the folks that don't think it can be done, never attempted to learn how to do it, have never tried it,  and/or haven't traveled to places where it's been done for thousands of years, (like Korea and China over their Ondul and Kang under floor heaters.)  I have photos in my gallery of some recent work.

Now over a radiant floor, as I have already stated, is going to take more work, and consideration, but is doable, especially for the character of a wide plank vintage floor look.  I have refurbished old wide plank (12" to 18") vintage oak floors, checks, gaps and all, and when done they are stunning.
"To posses an open mind, is to hold a key to many doors, and the ability to created doors where there were none before."

"When it is all said and done, they will have said they did it themselves."-teams response under a good leader.

Holmes

 Flat sawn boards are very difficult to keep stable and wide flat sawn is worse.  The closer to quarter sawn you can make your planks the better off you will be.  If Jay has a way to make the floors stable and you have the time to try it then go for it. Make the best quality boards you can for your project.   Humidification is very important for floor stability, and dehumidification in the warm months.
   The most shrinkage I get in my house from 12" wide pine boards is in the rooms with baseboard heating.   The 12" boards over the radiant heated areas actually shrink less.  This might be explained by new wood [ 10 years old] verses old wood 150 years old. Definitely see the difference in the growth rings.
Think like a farmer.

Jay C. White Cloud

Hello Holmes,

You made some great comments on this, thank's...
QuoteFlat sawn boards are very difficult to keep stable and wide flat sawn is worse.
You got that right, especially in many of the Oaks!  Spline, toggle and grooving joints are a must.  You have to lock the wood into a horizontal, (or vertical for walls  ;D) plan but still allow for contraction and expansion.  Once the wood has "seasoned" or "matured" in place this movement will settle down quite a bit.
QuoteThe closer to quarter sawn you can make your planks the better off you will be.
For the best quality, all wood joinery floors, this is the only kind of wood you use, and remember, flat sawn or quarter, bark side up only, for this traditional method.
QuoteMake the best quality boards you can for your project.
Yes Sir, that is what I would do.
QuoteHumidification is very important for floor stability, and dehumidification in the warm months.
Again, I couldn't agree more, especially with a traditional flooring method.  The use of waxes and oils really can aid this process by stabilizing the seasonal variations of taking on and loosing ambient moisture.
QuoteThe 12" boards over the radiant heated areas actually shrink less.  This might be explained by new wood [ 10 years old] verses old wood 150 years old.
In your thinking, could you explain more about this, I agree, depending on the wood, saw pattern and species, but I would like to know more of your thoughts on this.

You made some keen observation about the potentials in this process, thank's again.

Regards,

jay
"To posses an open mind, is to hold a key to many doors, and the ability to created doors where there were none before."

"When it is all said and done, they will have said they did it themselves."-teams response under a good leader.

red oaks lumber

please explain how a green oak floor put on heat will not shrink?
the experts think i do things wrong
over 18 million b.f. processed and 7341 happy customers i disagree

woodworker9

Jay

My background is that I've been a professional woodworker for over 25 years.  I've taught woodworking classes (traditional and hand tool use) for 10 years.  That being the case, I have never become closed-minded about learning something new. 

What you are saying is completely new concept to everything I've ever learned from vast personal experience regarding wood movement.  I have Hoadley's great book "Understanding Wood" and consider it a professional bible, of sorts. 

I cannot, for the likes of me, figure out how you could put wide plank green oak (white or red) down over a radiant heat system and get it to act properly in such a fashion as to not blow up inside the house due to being dried out faster on the down facing side vs. the show side.

Please enlighten me as to how you accomplish this so I can learn. I'd like to know your technique. That's why I come here.....to learn.

Thanks.

Jeff
03' LT40HD25 Kohler hydraulic w/ accuset
MS 441, MS 290, New Holland L185

beenthere

Woodworker9
You are correct. IMO
Jay gets hung up in his world, which adds to the drama  ;D
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Ljohnsaw

Quote from: woodworker9 on March 16, 2013, 01:24:24 PM
Jay

<<snip>>
I cannot, for the likes of me, figure out how you could put wide plank green oak (white or red) down over a radiant heat system and get it to act properly in such a fashion as to not blow up inside the house due to being dried out faster on the down facing side vs. the show side.

Please enlighten me as to how you accomplish this so I can learn. I'd like to know your technique. That's why I come here.....to learn.

Thanks.

Jeff

Jeff,

From an intuitive point of view, the heat is on the bottom of the boards, but I don't see how the bottom will dry faster - there is no air circulation.  If anything, I would expect the top to dry faster.

Red Oak Lumber,

Jay is not saying it won't shrink - you just need to plan for it.  Like a raised panel doors - the panels move a lot!

Jay,

Maybe semantics, but you state that flat-sawn or quarter-sawn, the bark should be up.  Isn't, by definition, quarter-sawn have the "bark" on the edge since the wood is cut radially?
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Ford 545D FEL, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/36" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

tyb525

"Jay's World" would be a whole lot more than just him. It is amish and eastern traditions (among others) and their buildings are not "blowing up". Give him some credit, I'd venture to guess he has built more than one house using the methods he talks about. The American building "traditions" existing for the last 50 years or so are causing our houses to slowly disintegrate...

I would definitely consider Jay's advice. I've seen some of his work and other work done by the old methods...and they didn't succeed by pure luck only.

Jay isn't saying the floor won't move when it dries. It will. What he is saying is there are ways to allow for that movement without it "blowing up" so to speak.

Of course using green wood as if it were dry wood can lead to problems.
LT10G10, Stihl 038 Magnum, many woodworking tools. Currently a farm service applicator, trying to find time to saw!

woodworker9

To be clear.....

I'm not being negative or disrespectful at all to Jay or his methods.  I want to learn what they are , specifically.  That's why I am on the forum.....to learn.

Regards,

Jeff
03' LT40HD25 Kohler hydraulic w/ accuset
MS 441, MS 290, New Holland L185

Holmes

Another item to look at is the type of radiant heating installation.  A system with constant circulation and modulating water temperature is less stressful on the floor than a system that slams the floor with 120 degree water then shuts off and lets it all cool down.  Your goal of wide flooring can be done but it is not all " just in the wood".
Think like a farmer.

tyb525

To speak to the original question, if the boards are dry, I don't think you'll have too much of a problem putting wider boards over radiant heat. IMO, the heat itself won't cause a lot of drying, but airflow+heat under the boards will cause that side to dry out.

I've seen pictures of wide plank flooring face screwed, with the screw holes plugged, and I think that is a better method than nailing (nails can work loose and squeak over time...). I think the screw holes are wallered out or something like that to allow for a little movement when the humidity changes. Not sure about that one though.

What Jay mentions is a great idea (a floating floor basically, held together by joints that can move) especially for green boards. But if the boards are dry, and the house doesn't undergo a big humidity change with the seasons, it might be more work than it's worth.
LT10G10, Stihl 038 Magnum, many woodworking tools. Currently a farm service applicator, trying to find time to saw!

MReinemann

Thanks guys for the comments.  I looked at jay's work in his album.  It's apparent that he has a unique skill set.  At least from my point of view.  This post was mostly for my friend who plans on building a new house and we had discussed milling some floors for it off the trees on the property, mostly maple and red oaks.  He did some research and had concerns about putting in the wide plank over radiant and I did too but figured this was best place to ask about it.  If we do do it the wood would be dry and all he wants to do was face nail it with masonry nails to make it look old, then sand it.  No tongue and groove, just joint the edges and sand the one face once it's down with the floor sander.  The nails would hit the floor joists of course.  Thanks again, I love the knowledge base on this website!
-Matt

tyb525

If that is the case, some people will sweep the floor only and not vacuum, let the dirt fill in the cracks that will open/close between the boards.
LT10G10, Stihl 038 Magnum, many woodworking tools. Currently a farm service applicator, trying to find time to saw!

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