Square ground file

[421Altered]

I just bought a Stihl 3/8 inch square ground chain, and a Stihl 6 sided file, both at my Stihl dealer.  However, when I look at the relationship of the file to the cutter, it doesn't look like this is the correct file.  It's a triangular file, about 3/16" wide, but, with 1/16" file faces on the corner's.  It doesn't look like it will file the square of the cutter correctly.  Am I missing something here?

[Old Greenhorn]

What you have is called a '3 square' file (I have no idea why, because it is not square). :D It is likely a Pferd file #17081. It should do the trick, but you have picked a challenging profile to learn and you really need a guru to teach you this technique. It should take him/her about 10 minutes to show you, and take you a few hours to get it right. ;D I use a double bevel file (Pferd #17082) for my square ground and have yet to try the 3 square. The double bevel allows you to sharpen the chain and do the rakers with the same file and I find it easier to work with than a thin file. Still I have yet to try the 3 square and someday I will, but I can't give a fair comparison. Both files are available from Baily's and many others. Obviously, they are more expensive, but last longer.
Square chain filing is a totally different technique, there are no guides or gimmicks available, you just have to learn ho to do it right. I find it faster to sharpen a chain and it cuts much better than. A while back I found this guide on the Madsen's site and found it very helpful, but nothing can replace a simple training session from an experienced hand. It will take patience to learn, but once you have it, life gets good.
You should also be able to find some good discussions here on the forum regarding this. I had the same questions not very long ago. One piece of advice (which I rarely do): DO NOT believe all those folks that will tell you 'square chains dull faster and easier'. This is flat out wrong. I did some research on this and traced it back to a marketing campaign by one of the major manufacturers who thought (and wanted) the square grind to go away. I did my own testing and clearly found this not to be accurate and then found out the history upon further investigation. Buying square chain around here is impossible, so that is a problem for me. I run both now but when I want square, I have to buy a round chain and the first time it gets dull I reform the teeth to square. This takes me about 45 mins to an hour on an 18" bar and a lot longer on my big saw. However, subsequent sharping takes about half the time of round chain, for me. Bigger file, better control, no guides to fuss with, and the only other thing I need is a flat raker gauge. (I like the spring steel Husqvarna, but those are had to find too.)
It will take a lot of perseverance and effort on your part to learn the skill but once you have, it's a whole new world. Square cuts with less load on the saw and will get through a log faster every time.
Best of luck,
Tom
P.S. Where are you located if you could pick up a square chain in a local dealer, I wonder? Updating your profile info would be helpful for folks trying to guide you.

[Al_Smith]

Here's the facts about square ground .It's faster.It's usually used by contract fellers on soft woods ,PNW types.It's a pain in the buttocks to hand file ,.
You file it "backwards " going from the front of the tooth .You have to have three things correct for it to cut correctly .The side angle,top plate angle and working corner .Most importantly you'll have to absolutely love to file because you'll be doing a lot of it . ;D

[Real1shepherd]

Here's the facts about square ground .It's faster.It's usually used by contract fellers on soft woods ,PNW types.It's a pain in the buttocks to hand file ,.
You file it "backwards " going from the front of the tooth .You have to have three things correct for it to cut correctly .The side angle,top plate angle and working corner .Most importantly you'll have to absolutely love to file because you'll be doing a lot of it . ;D

That's a lot of ADMIN LANGUAGE EDIT too. I've been using square file, skip-tooth chisel chain since the 70's. It does NOT get dull easily unless you plunge it into rocks/dirt. It's also not just suitable for PNW softwoods. As I mentioned in another thread, I moved to a big farm back in MO and routinely cut walnut and oak with that chain(68cj). Granted, you need 80cc or better to pull that chain, but most of my saws are that size or larger.

The Oregon Pro 68cj chain is not for everyone, obviously. But there is a lot of square file chain out there suitable for smaller saws than I have.

You're perpetuating a MYTH about square file chain.

Kevin  

[Al_Smith]

It's in the eye of the user .It was a dead give away,Washington State residence. I have some myself although I seldom use it .Try some of that chain on some standing dead ,rock hard  EAB killed ash for a while and let us know how it works out .Try it on some standing dead shag bark hickory .Live white oak,sugar maple etc no problem .
It takes me about 5 minutes to touch up a 72 driver loop of round chisel chain . If it were square I'd have at least 20 minutes in it .Now granted if I'd been working with it for the last 35 years I'd certainly be better  at it .It's not a myth ,a fact .--Then it becomes an option to the oil wars and aviation gasoline .Entertaining but not real good at changing anybodies mind . ;D

[Dave Shepard]

I prefer a double bevel chisel but file for square chain. I file the same way as round, meaning from the inside to the outside of the cutter. If it's not damaged, it doesnt take any longer to file than round.

[421Altered]

Thanks very, very much to all that have replied to my post.  I just bought this chain to play around with on my farm, mostly I cut pine trees and oak, and they are mostly clean.  Old Greenhorn, I live in South Georgia near Tifton, Ga.  However I bought the chain at a Stihl dealer in Leesburg, Ga.  They did have to order it, and it came in about a week.  I've been using the Stihl dealer I just mentioned for all my needs since my local dealer in Tifton, Ga. told me that Stihl no longer sells full skip chain!  Ha! That's not true, of course!  So, I just took my business where I can get what I want.  Actually, they ship items to me since I'm over an hour away from there.  If you will pm me, I'll give you their name and phone number.

[sawguy21]

His experience is different than yours but that doesn't make either of you right or wrong. Can you listen and accept your differences? Heck, both of you might learn something.

[Southside]

@Real1shepherd I am going to step in here and advise you to adjust your attitude and your use of disguised vulgar language. It's not permitted here on the Forum.  Having a different opinion and experience is welcomed and sharing that is encouraged, being an agitator is not.  A positive first step would be to correct your inappropriate language yourself using the "modify" option.  This is your warning.  

[ehp]

I pretty much can file square in my sleep as I have spent hours on hours  well its more like years on years doing it . I never found it hard , the 6 sided file works ok but it does limit what angles you can file at cause of its thickness so I prefer the bevel file. Best way to learn is just start filing . Watch your tooth corner , if your to high on corner tooth will be dull, if to low you will have a peak and your side plate will not be correct . It does not matter which way you file in or out but filing backwards for most people is easier cause you can watch your corner easier

[ehp]

Al, I cut for years in the bush using square filed chain as for falling timber and all I mainly cut is hardwood . I prefer using square in the winter time over round and its a far smoother cutting chain. Down here on Lake Erie I round file mainly cause your always hitting something in the trees . It up to the person doing the filing then you can make up your own mind and for my mind if I cutting descent timber with not much fence or steel around I would prefer to use square filed . Its forsure faster and smoother  

[Old Greenhorn]

Thanks very, very much to all that have replied to my post.  I just bought this chain to play around with on my farm, mostly I cut pine trees and oak, and they are mostly clean.  Old Greenhorn, I live in South Georgia near Tifton, Ga.  However I bought the chain at a Stihl dealer in Leesburg, Ga.  They did have to order it, and it came in about a week.  I've been using the Stihl dealer I just mentioned for all my needs since my local dealer in Tifton, Ga. told me that Stihl no longer sells full skip chain!  Ha! That's not true, of course!  So, I just took my business where I can get what I want.  Actually, they ship items to me since I'm over an hour away from there.  If you will pm me, I'll give you their name and phone number.

Ah, this makes more sense to me now. I don't know how easy it would be for you to find someone in your area that can coach you through the process. As EHP noted, and I will emphasize, breaking out the corner in the right place on every tooth is the key to a good clean, fast cut. Many think they understand this, but don't. If you get that right (and it takes a little time until you are good at it) you've got it made and it goes fast. 
 You original post only asked about the files and NOT the benefit of square verses round. I extolled some of the virtues because getting started with square is a challenge, or at least it was for me, so I wanted to provide some encouragement. I did not stop to think that I would open up the same old 'square vs. round war' that some folks can't let go of. I apologize for that. I might as well have started a thread about gas mix ratios and the only correct oil to use. ;D I will not participate in that or any other discussion where one or more parties has to be right. Folks should use whatever they like and what works for them. I use both in this case.
 Thanks for the offer to give me your supplier info. I am good. I like filing my own and I don't think any of the manufacturers I buy from make a square ground in .325 x .050. I like the Oregon LPX chain as a starting point, it cuts well with a round tooth and is easy to reshape to square.
 Good luck with the square stuff and be patient, it will come. My first chain was pretty poor but it got better very fast as I understood the geometry.
Tom

[Al_Smith]

You can in some real doonie brooks about saw chain .However if you cut to the chase it's just what works out best for whoever is using it .Actually it was Rick H who showed me how to file square . Which I really only use for my version of a race chain and it is faster .However it would be a very poor work chain unless you really like to file which I don't .On this dead ash with a standard round chisel it's every tank full of fuel .I'd venture to say square would not last that long .
As it works out I very seldom cut a live tree so it's all dead stuff .Believe you me dead Ohio hardwoods are about like granite .Burns good though . ;D 

[421Altered]

OldGreenhorn,  Thanks for all of your information and your words of encouragement.  I've never used square before, heck, I'd never even seen a square chain before, but, for many years I always hand filed my chains, never with a file holder so, with enough patience and practice I believe that I can do it. too.  And if I can't, I'll just grind it out with my grinder.  I invested in a couple of Oregon grinder's a couple of years ago, they really speed things up, although, I do miss hand filing.  Again, many thanks!

[Old Greenhorn]

Well, guys who use square around here are pretty much non-existent, most don't know what I am talking about. Some of the dealers even think 'square' is a synonym for 'chisel' and hand you round ground. I had to reach out to a regional guru for instruction. Just to elaborate on the point EHP made above, the corner is everything. When you run the file through you create a sharp internal corner. That corner MUST break out at the exact same corner where the top plate meets the side plate. Youy can vary your front and drop angles a little based on the wood or preferences as you learn, but that internal corner must be where the top and side meet no matter what your other angles are. This is what EHP meant by 'too high" or "too low" and this is the likely mistake that most folks make when learning. I did it myself of course. :D
 By the way, I pretty much only cut hardwoods and up till now cut a LOT of dead standing ash with very happy results. Everybody has different experiences. When you get into it, just holler if you have questions, there are some very smart folks here, and I might be able to help too. ;D

[Al_Smith]

A feller from I think Idaho during "Fire Season " a time they cannot cut take a trip to Ohio .It happened to be during one of our GTG's ..They use all square on those western  slopes and grind it rather than file .He had a Silvery grinder with a stand he ran off a power converter in his pick up truck .It didn't take him very long to sharpen a chain .
He gave me an old Lombard gear drive saw that was so old it had a float type Tillotson carb that was mounted at a 45 degree angle so the saw could be tilted .I got it running no problem .
Poor guy got injured from a snap back of a limb that really messed him up and got completely out of the timber falling business .Can't remember his name though .

[hedgerow]

I will start out by saying I don't file any chain. I just don't enjoy running a file. When my FIL was still alive and going to the timber with me he filed everything and that man could run a file not me I own grinders and change out chains when were cutting wood. Probably has been ten years ago a buddy showed up to my place with a funny looking grinder that a guy had give to him that his dad had brought back from the west coast years ago. Six years ago I was in the area of Madsen's  there was a new one of that same grinder that was setting in my shed in there show room. So I bought a 461 saw and we got to talking about the Silvery square grinder and square grind chain I had never been around it. So I bought some Oregon loops of square grind chain and got some instruction on the grinder I had setting at home and off we went. So the last six years I have used square grind on and off. I pretty much only hardwood hedge and locust and some ash and elm. Some days I think the square is holding up better and some days I think the round holds up better. So I guess the jury is still out for me.

[Real1shepherd]

@Real1shepherd I am going to step in here and advise you to adjust your attitude and your use of disguised vulgar language. It's not permitted here on the Forum.  Having a different opinion and experience is welcomed and sharing that is encouraged, being an agitator is not.  A positive first step would be to correct your inappropriate language yourself using the "modify" option.  This is your warning.  

Point taken. I'll just let someone railroad me after over forty yrs use of skip tooth, square file chain use in different parts of the country including hardwoods. It takes me about ten minute to touch up a 36" bar at lunch time. Yeah boy....that's a loooong time fer sure.

I have a an old Granberg chisel file jig I use on the site and at home that was made specifically for square file chain. The Silvey grinder a lot of my friends had/have. They were always expensive but paid for themselves if you were paying a shop to sharpen your chain all the time. The trouble there is overheating and super hardening your cutters by a bad operator. Look at Madsen's very long explanation on how to sharpen square file on the grinders they sell.  

I moved around a lot. Having a Silvey grinder on a loggin' site driven by a generator is absurd....never saw that done. It's a precision machine meant to stay in a shop. What goes at some GTG is not real world loggin'.

There...no vulgar language or innuendo to do so. If this last post is 'over the top', then I'll be happy to leave......just say so.  

Kevin

[Al_Smith]

A Silvery on a stand might sound absurd but I saw it and he was the real McCoy from Idaho .Logging is what he did for a living .
I sent him about a 20 pound care package full  of lathe tools for a little table top Atlas lathe .It was a tiny little thing  just barely large enough to swing a saw cylinder .In Idaho finding things like lathe tooling are very hard to find,in Ohio relatively easy .I had plenty already so I just passed them forward . 

[Real1shepherd]

Never seen it done in the woods is what I'm saying. Is it possible....sure. Is there efficacy in it....maybe for that one guy.

Idaho is full of 'characters', like my ex.

Kevin