Building my own old school "setworks"

moodnacreek · October 13, 2021, 08:35:32 PM

I never understood 'automatic setworks' I'm thinking you turn the movement on and a limit switch turns it off. So there is a limit switch for each pre-set or thickness. And an override feature jog around and get to a starting point to do a 'stack' of like thickness boards. On circle mills this can be on a wheel or a vertical slide. It seems like a electric brake gearmotor would be needed but it could also be hydraulic . I guess the endcoder/ computer set up is the modern way and that is really beyond me.

fluidpowerpro · October 13, 2021, 09:57:18 PM

Yes, t

Quote from: moodnacreek on October 13, 2021, 08:35:32 PM
I'm thinking you turn the movement on and a limit switch turns it off.

Yes, thats what it will do. I manually initiate the saw to go down. It will continue down as long as I hold the switch. When the limit switch is tripped, the motion will stop.

Crusarius · October 14, 2021, 08:05:20 AM

Going through an awful lot of work to still have to hold the button. I would want to be able to hit the direction key and walk away.

Another thing I planned on mine was to put a limit switch on a magnet and be able to place it wherever I want on the mill. That way when I am ready to load the next log I can set the switch to the height I want the head and hit go. Then by the time I get the log loaded the head is at the right position and should take minimal movement to get to my first cut point.

My head takes over 2 minutes from last cut to top of travel so the last feature would be very nice.

fluidpowerpro · October 14, 2021, 12:13:34 PM

Thats not a bad idea. I think for now I'll hold the button. If everything works reliably, it wont be hard to add some latching contacts later.

moodnacreek · October 14, 2021, 12:47:02 PM

Quote from: Crusarius on October 14, 2021, 08:05:20 AM
Going through an awful lot of work to still have to hold the button. I would want to be able to hit the direction key and walk away.

Another thing I planned on mine was to put a limit switch on a magnet and be able to place it wherever I want on the mill. That way when I am ready to load the next log I can set the switch to the height I want the head and hit go. Then by the time I get the log loaded the head is at the right position and should take minimal movement to get to my first cut point.

My head takes over 2 minutes from last cut to top of travel so the last feature would be very nice.

That's what time delay relays will do. You can have delay off or delay on and they are adjustable. That 2 min. up down travel time would be unacceptable here.

fluidpowerpro · October 26, 2021, 11:48:48 PM

Just finished another round of work on the assembly.

Finished the cams and mounted them to the slide plate.
Finished the enclosure with door.
Because the saw structure, and where I want to mount it is shorter than what is needed to get full travel on the cams, the cams actually have to exit the enclosure out of the top. The red "hat" pictured covers the opening to keep dust out. It also has a drip edge to shield the top of the door.
>
Snow will be flying soon so I removed the saw from the bed to bring inside to mount the assembly. It will mount in the space between the existing electrical control box for the winch and manual scale you see in the picture.

Next will be to mount pulleys and cable that will move the slider plate up and down with the saw head, and then wiring.
*Note that I did do some testing with an ohm meter on the switches and cams. As best I can tell using a hand held caliper, I'm holding about .020". We'll see where it ends up once its mounted. I'm sure adding pulleys and the repeatability of the winch brake will make it worse. In the end I think consistency is the big thing I'm shooting for. Regardless of where the actual board thickness ends up, I want each board to be the same.

fluidpowerpro · November 09, 2021, 11:31:58 PM

Finished another round of work on the assembly.
I'm getting close to being able to test it. Just a bit more wiring to do.

This last round included:
1. Mounted the assembly into the saw frame. Had to relocate the current visual scale to make room.
2. Added pulleys and cable to move the cam plate up and down with the saw head. Pictured is with 1/8" cable but thats too stiff so will be changing to 1/16".
3. Changed the adjusting wheel for zeroing the cams to one that is a larger diameter. This one turns so much easier.
4. Added switches , etc to the existing electrical control box. The box originally had a screw on cover so I added hinges to better accommodate mounting things in front through the door.
5. Added a latch to the door of the aluminum enclosure.
6. Relocated the "max up" limit switch. This shuts off the winch when the upper limit of head travel is reached.

Ljohnsaw · November 10, 2021, 12:41:55 AM

Looking good. Can't wait to see it in action.

If not already planned, you will probably need some sort of external indication as to the position of the x-y slide so you know which way you should zero on a scale. Otherwise you might find you end up at end of travel after repeated zeroing (multiple logs/cants).

My setup is completely external and a manual process to zero so its a no-brainer. If it was hidden (like yours), it would be very difficult.

moodnacreek · November 10, 2021, 08:16:28 AM

Quote from: fluidpowerpro on October 26, 2021, 11:48:48 PM
Just finished another round of work on the assembly.

Finished the cams and mounted them to the slide plate.
Finished the enclosure with door.
Because the saw structure, and where I want to mount it is shorter than what is needed to get full travel on the cams, the cams actually have to exit the enclosure out of the top. The red "hat" pictured covers the opening to keep dust out. It also has a drip edge to shield the top of the door.
>

Snow will be flying soon so I removed the saw from the bed to bring inside to mount the assembly. It will mount in the space between the existing electrical control box for the winch and manual scale you see in the picture.
Next will be to mount pulleys and cable that will move the slider plate up and down with the saw head, and then wiring.
*Note that I did do some testing with an ohm meter on the switches and cams. As best I can tell using a hand held caliper, I'm holding about .020". We'll see where it ends up once its mounted. I'm sure adding pulleys and the repeatability of the winch brake will make it worse. In the end I think consistency is the big thing I'm shooting for. Regardless of where the actual board thickness ends up, I want each board to be the same.

That picture of the notched aluminum bars, put together, looks like my scale board.

mike_belben · November 10, 2021, 09:46:51 AM

Im not fully understanding the notched scales and cam follower microswitches. Is this a mechanical means to avoid a stepper motor, home switch and driver?

I dont mean it as a criticism, youve done a lot of nice work.

fluidpowerpro · November 10, 2021, 06:58:23 PM

Yes, thats why I call it "old school". I know its low tech, but its what I understand.

fluidpowerpro · November 10, 2021, 07:07:55 PM

Quote from: ljohnsaw on November 10, 2021, 12:41:55 AM
Looking good. Can't wait to see it in action.

If not already planned, you will probably need some sort of external indication as to the position of the x-y slide so you know which way you should zero on a scale. Otherwise you might find you end up at end of travel after repeated zeroing (multiple logs/cants).

Yes, that did cross my mind but I'm going to go without for now. I have found that while zeroing, it works best to zero by moving the slide in the upward direction, against the spring. That way I know any play has been eliminated. I did put indication arrows by the adjustment wheel noting which way to rotate for up and down. In use, I will try to avoid working near the travel limits of the slide by always going down, and then adjust up until zero is achieved.

moodnacreek · November 10, 2021, 07:34:47 PM

I think Meadows used this system on one of their automatic setworks years back. Before that they and others had a chain driven drum that stopped the hyd. set motor through a solenoid valve. This was circle mills but other than the kerf it is all the same.

fluidpowerpro · November 21, 2021, 11:36:35 PM

Hi all, although I have worked more on this, no picture worthy changes to show.
I was actually able to do some testing on the system and my electrical circuit worked as intended. While cycling up and down I determined that I need to scrap the small "micro" size micro switches and go to the "standard" size micro switch that is larger. The lever arms on the smaller size are just too weak and are easily bent. The larger size is more robust. As it goes while your building something, I went with the smaller ones because my original circuit used more switches so I needed the small size. The design then progressed, using less switches, so now I can fit the larger ones.
Also, while cycling up and down repeatedly for about 5 minutes I learned that my PMW motor control did not like that. It blew up! Yes, it actually blew up! loud noise and some parts flew!
I used that control while sawing most of last summer with no issues so it worked good enough for that kind of duty, but as long as I've got it in the shop, I'm going to go to a larger control just to be safe. This will require a larger electrical enclosure that I have on order already.

Southside · November 21, 2021, 11:49:49 PM

So the magic smoke didn't just escape - it erupted eh?

fluidpowerpro · November 22, 2021, 12:15:30 AM

Yea, after looking at it, I think what blew up was a capacitor.

Ljohnsaw · November 22, 2021, 01:09:53 AM

Were you switching directions quickly when it happened? You MUST let the motor come to a complete stop before you change direction. Otherwise you get a transient spike that pops the controller. You might be able to add an inductor to the lines going to the motor to suppress the spikes somewhat. I fried my controller for my power drive doing that. You could make it fool proof by adding one of your one-shot relays into the power circuit. Somehow it would need to break the power for 1 or 2 seconds when you move the direction switch from one setting to off.

fluidpowerpro · November 22, 2021, 02:16:31 PM

Thank you for the suggestion. I dont know if that was the case, but it very well could have been. My winch has a brake and it does seem to stop very quickly, but I may have tried to reverse faster than it engaged.

fluidpowerpro · December 14, 2021, 07:55:45 PM

Hi all,
I finally finished the system and have it installed.
A few of you asked for a video so here goes... Its the first video I ever made and posted on Youtube.

Not sure if I'm doing this right...

low tech setworks - YouTube

Hilltop366 · December 14, 2021, 08:21:20 PM

Nice job on the build and video.

fluidpowerpro · June 24, 2022, 12:49:47 PM

For those of you that followed my build of my own version of setworks, now that I have some time using it, figured I could give an update. I'm happy to report that it's been working really well with no issues so far.
My last job was all 2" thick trailer decking. When I made the cams, I machined them 2.140 and the boards are ending up at a consistent 2.10.
The main thing is they are consistent.
I can always make a new cam if I want to tweak the final thickness, so that's no big deal.

fluidpowerpro · June 24, 2022, 12:56:44 PM

Also wanted to shout out a thank you to ljohnsaw for helping me refine my electrical control circuit. Having a second set of eyes to look at my design was very helpful.

Ljohnsaw · June 24, 2022, 12:59:47 PM

Your very welcome. I enjoy a puzzle/challenge!

moodnacreek · June 25, 2022, 08:58:04 AM

First let me say you do nice work and you did something I have long thought about. The part I don't understand is the 'zeroing in'. In my mind that would only get done once. In sawing a log into boards I presume you make a cant into a determined width and then keep hitting your preset button down to the last board. Is this how it works?

fluidpowerpro · June 25, 2022, 12:43:49 PM

Yes, you only zero once. After you raise the head to return, each time you push the down button, the saw moves down to the next groove in the cam. For example, you make the first cut, raise the head, return, push it once, the head lowers to the last cut, push it again, it lowers to the next cut. The next cut, you will lower 3x, etc, etc,.